I'm addressing this question specifically to 23 owners but it could be put in other places here on the site. I've toyed with the idea of converting the stock transom hung rudder to an inboard type, like the 27 has. My reasons are:
1. I'm hoping to eliminate all excessive weather helm.
2. I think it would be a simpler system- no raising and lowering the blade, no driving the rudder into the prop while motoring. (no, I haven't done this yet)
3. Possibly some better maneuverability.
4. Maybe it would allow the boat to point a bit higher.
I'm sure there are others.
I'm not a designer but I do admit to having an overactive mind sometimes...my wife might beg to differ.
Has anyone else ever thought of this or am I a madman? I plan on contacting the factory as well as Keith at the sailboat shop. I think it would not be terribly difficult but on paper, what is?
Bob23
That would be a huge modification. Think of it....You would have to put a big hole in the bottom of the boat and build up a pipe for the rudder shaft to go through.
Then you also have to deal with more damage if you ground it.
You are in NJ, you also have those damn crab pots and they are really good at snagging things. Imagine having to get out of your boat to free a pot off of your rudder (I think that act is a right of passage in the Chesapeake Bay).
I don't get the bad weather helm on my boat because I have the foiled rudder. If you don't have it then it is a great upgrade. It would be a lot cheaper than adding an inboard rudder.
Hmm...good points all.
I do also have a foiled rudder... but it's a nature of the 23's to have some weather helm, sometimes a bit excessive when the wind pipes up. When I made my foiled blade, I do admit to making it a bit too wide although I did add a lot to the leading edge. It works great and was a great improvement to the boat, but I was just wondering about the inboard rudder idea. Maybe I should just leave well enough alone.
Here is a shot of the blade, not fully forward, as you can see- no tension on the downhaul.
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt260/Bob23_photo/Koinonia%20rudder%20project/Woodfoiledblade.jpg)
The one problem I've always had with my downhaul, is that the blade is never in the all the way down position. I didn't realize how far back the blade points; this could be the main part of all my weather helm issues. So maybe I'll devise a new downhaul idea that insures the blade is keep all the way forward...got all winter to devise something.
I hadn't given thought to the unsnagging issue- good point. Good to have friends to help sort things out. Still, I think it would be doable modification. SLAP! What did I just say?
Bob23
I have a solid bar that keeps my rudder down.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/Compac23ontrailer_zps7b8ebc96.jpg
You can see it on the back of the boat. I am not sure if it is a standard thing but it works well keeping the rudder down or up. There is a bungee cord to hold it in place better.
Thanks. But tell me more about that hard dodger I see. I've been toying with that also but looks like you've done it already. If you have any detail photos, maybe you can email them to me?
Thanks,
Bob23
Surprisingly a inboard rudder conversion would be a pretty cool project if you had the room.... I would need to be in the back on a 23 to know for sure, but I think the mod would be interesting and doable....... then again, I am a little silly,...... what do I know about doing stuff like that?
Too bad you dont live closer...... I might actually talk you into doing it! LOL
Mac
The previous owner had the hard dodger made for the boat. I really don't like it too much since I am use to a soft dodger and I like being able to put the connector on it. It may be a piece that I end up selling.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/Compac23sailing_zps606d5d55.jpg
Here is another picture of it.
I wish it was the same perimeters as the soft dodger. It just covers the companionway and that is all.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/Compac23_zps7d6cf4f4.jpg
One more shot of it on the boat.
After I moved the boat from where Norm had it to my home I haven't put the dodger back on it.
My vote is to build another rudder instead. Put a bit more leading edge on it and maintain the NACA0012 profile closely, keeping the chord width to a minimum ( 1 1/4" or so).
You'll see reduced weather helm, a little less drag and a little better maneuverability. And a heck of a lot easier to do and revert to your current setup as needed.
The Com-pac hold down bar design (for lack of a better term) looks like the way to go to hold the blade down. I bet a welder could craft something for you at a pretty low cost...
Hi Bob,
one of the things that i love about the 23 is that there are no thru hulls.. i would be reluctant to dill a hole for a rudder post .. although, as the owner of a first generation boat, i certainly know about weather helm! but, speaking of drilling holes.. my rudder has a hole through which a nylon bolt is threaded.. when the rudder hits bottom the nylon bolt shears... i know.. i have experienced it a number of times :) but , under normal operation, the bolt keeps the rudder in the down position very well.
of course , the associated problem which i have experienced not once but twice, is that if the bolt shears while i am under power.. the rudder floats to the surface and becomes a favorite target of the prop.. thus the conical scar that is on the port side of my otherwise, very nicely shaped rudder! jt
I have heard talk about the bolts and the rudder kicking up.
The system that is on my boat means that I don't have to use a pin to keep the rudder in place.
One thought.....If you are using a bolt for a pin why not use a dow rod of diameter that fits into the pin hole. It will swell and stay in there when wet and it will break easier than a bolt. It is also cheaper!
I've heard that the swollen dowels are hard to remove.
I think you guys have steered me (pun intended) in a good direction. Although I'm intrigued about the inboard rudder, and feel it would be a relatively easy project for someone experienced, like Mac, my next tack is this:
Alter the existing rudder plate where it rides in the rudder housing to allow the rudder to angle forward more out of plumb than it currently does. Then add the hold down bar to keep the blade as far forward as possible. But it would be cool to have an inboard rudder. I think the shaft is nothing more than a stuffing box arrangement.
In either case, looks like a next winter project.
Bob23
I have read comment after comment regarding weather helm on Compacs. I am not convinced this is an inherent flaw in the boats. Last year I bought an 85 cp 16, put on new standing rigging, new running rigging and a new set of Doyles. I stepped the mast straight up and get just a wee bit of lee helm, rake back about 4 turns on the turnbuckles and the boat is neutral in light air and dialed in pretty good for 10kts. Before doing any rudder work I would put on new sails-not off the shelf stuff, but have them made for your boat, with measurements from your boat, and for the conditions you sail in. At the CLR there were several 16's on the water, we all started at the same time, and granted I might have gotten some advantage as the wind went left, however I was pointing and footing better than the other guys which I attribute to sail shape and hull trim. I have to think a new main is less expensive than a new rudder assembly and you need new sails every few years anyway....if you are using 10 year old sails that have any time on them, that explains the weather helm and performance issues. Merry Christmas everyone!
Bob23,
Most Rudder shafts are not built using a packing (if any, although I am sure there are some out there...) but instead it would be a glassed pole/tube, with a bushing top and bottom, then the shaft merely passes through that.
The water is allowed inside, when below the water line, otherwise the water doesn't pass up through the tube except to seek its own level, so the real point being is that the top of the tube is ended above the water line.
Same principle for drop boards and the like. :)
Mac
Thanks, Mac. If I do this, I'll pick your brain. But I think I've tamed mine enough to reconsider this hairbrain scheme. And the overwhelming concern was always that moving the rudder that far forward would produce lee helm- a bad thing.
Matt:
I can't comment on the 16's too much. Sounds like you have a later one- (mk3?) is it a mast head rig? The 23's do indeed like to express their inherent weather helm- ask anyone who owns one. My boat (1985 23/2) has a foiled rudder, custom sails made for this particular boat by a local, and quite well known sailmaker who is familiar with our local conditions. I also rake my mast forward a bit. All these have lessened the weather helm and improved the speed and pointing ability of "Koinoina".
In looking at the photo below of my wood blade, I will admit to making it a bit too wide. Hey, first one! And the rope downhaul, while it does work, it admittedly does not hold it all the way forward. I think with a narrower blade held down by a steel hold down bracket, I could virtually eliminate my weather helm, or substantially reduce it. But any 23 guys will tell you it's there.
The next big plan would be a longer bow pulpit to further bring the headsail center of effort forward. But before I get into all that, I'll buy a Flicka!
Bob23
You would have to mention "Flickas"................ Flickas and Dana 24's two of my favorites
V.
Bob, the Flicka guys say the same thing, when the boat heels over it develops weatherhelm quickly. There is even a large chart showing sail combos to use to keep her footing and not healed over too much. I was wondering if you have as much helm when you sail the boat flatter. It would be fun to put a decent amount of meat on the rail and see how she does with the boat flattened out. Seems to me it would be much more effective to affect mainsail shape than putting the mast forward- I will be having dinner with some racing guys Sunday and will ask about this. Btw the 85 I have is the old rig no sprit. I was told by the Johnson folks that boats of that era could have any rig combo as the builder used up parts. Best of luck.
Interesting.
I'd guess that's a good thing for an over-heeled boat to have weather helm- we want her to round up, ayuh?
The 23 hull seems to like to heel. In light air, I do what you were doing at CLR.(yeah, I was watching) and that is sit on the leeward side to induce heel. The 19's may like to sail flat, but my 23 leans toward some heel. I'm only giving you info that I've learned from sailing this boat for 8 years. I'm not a designer or racer. And I do admit to knowing only the basics of rig tuning and sail trim. They also respond to fore and aft weight trim.
This thread has taken an interesting tack. Let's keep it going.
Bob23
Monohauls are designed to sail between 10 and 15 degrees of a heel. That is optimal and when racing keel boats for many years we would purposely heel the boats in light winds. It helps them point a little better and balances things better.
After you go over 15 degrees the boat is starting to heel excessively. Ultimately the heeling would cause the rudder to stall and the boat heads up.
My boat develops some weather helm as it heels over 15 degrees. In racing it is believed that a little weather helm is good on a boat with a tiller. It makes the boat more responsive and racers will balance sails to give it a little weather helm. Too much weather helm and it becomes a chore to be a helmsman. On larger tiller boats in heavy weather crews sometimes gang up on the helm when it develops excessive weather helm.
None the less, on a cruising boat weather helm can be a pain. Balanced sails and sails cut to the boat help. Balancing the rig with tuning it helps. In the end, Bob is right, there will always be some weather helm. Bob sounds like he has his boat set up extremely well.
I hate the wobble feeling I get out of my helm. Since it is a kick-up rudder and has the joint you have this bump feeling when steering.
How do we keep getting off on tangents on Bob's threads?
"My boat set up extremely well." I try but like any intriguing woman, they always keep some secrets and there is always more to learn.
Bob23
I reread my post. To clarify, I think weatherhelm can occur from a lack of balance in the sail plan vs the pivot point on the hull. We all get that part. However heeling by addressing trim through movable ballast (crew) will also induce helm. Not all monohulls will sail best at 10-15 degrees. Some will, some will sail better flatter, few sail better past 15ish, some dig in around 20 and firm up but that doesn't mean it is in it's fasted groove. I think on our shoal draft boats flatter is faster and by that I mean vmg to the windward mark. The more the boat heels the more leeway is made (except maybe a wing as heel is induced the wing may dip lower plus the reduced drag as the tip vortex is reduced-I think that is the right term). At the CLR, I sat forward with one leg inside the cabin to balance fore and aft trim, with my torso just leeward enough to keep the sail shape but the keel as vertical as possible. I would reach back and adjust the tiller just a quarter of an inch at a time (had the bungees holding course for 80% of the time) with my other hand slowly playing the barber haulers up and down the jib sheet to maximize sail shape in the light and shifting winds (it is amazing how forestay sag or lack of, changes the luff shape on the jib). On that particular day the wind went to the left as we sailed to the east side of the lake. I could see the Suncats pointing higher but not making better time to the mark, I thought for sure they would make Coles Creek with out a tack, but that wasn't the case. By the time the 19s and the infamous "O" I mean C'day25 left the line I am not sure what kind of wind you guys were working with. As for CrazyCarl well all bets off there! Seriously, good Karmá to him for the good Samaritan effort. I do think that the other 16's and one Suncat put in an extra stitch to clear the point and I believe Roger sailed over the shoal noting he had to pull the board to clear it. I tacked over not being as confident about the water depth, but it killed me to do so!! Can't wait for next years CLR, we should do a clinic on the tips and tricks we all use. My best to you all. Matt.
The clinic idea is a good one. Sounds like about 10pm on the dock should work!
The fore and aft trim issue is a real one, for sure. In light air, I'll use a tiller extension to sit as far forward in the cockpit as possible and she'll immediately point a bit higher. I think this is one reason the 23 diesels apparently sail better than the outboard. Much less weight hanging over the transom. I do indeed carry my water supply up in the v berth area and feel this helps some.
It is fun experimenting with the weight and rig trim. This season, I was so late in getting in that I didn't take the proper time to tune the rig but the main thing, I was sailing! And she was no slouch this summer. It would be fun to sail my 23 at Carlyle..I've not experience in non tidal waters. But I'm not sure Koinoina will like the lack of salt! Might have to bring my own.
Bob23
Bob,
I see Keith Scott is putting inboard rudder on his CP 23 Trawler, and center-mounting the outboard. Check out the current projects link on his website for his description. www.ipass.net/sailboat.