I could use some advise.
I have a leak in my Deck to Hull joint. When it rains, or when I start plowing through waves on Lake Michigan, I get water coming in 2 areas on the port side.
The first spot is just aft where the toe rail ends which is just aft the cabin area. THe water leaks down the inside of the hull and settles in the Storage Locker on the port side settee.
(http://sailtomcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/CP23Hull-Deck042.jpg)
The second spot is by the forward lower chain plate. I am not sure if its the chain plate itself or the deck/ hull joint at this point.
(http://sailtomcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/CP23Hull-Deck040.jpg)
Now to my questions.
Should I just repair these spots or loosen the entire deck/hull joint and recaulk it all?
If a just do a small area, I am concerned about lossening/ cracking caulk elsewhere and giving myself more problems.
If I recaulk the entire length, 1) Should I pull out all the screws on one side at a time (about 50 per side) , or just a few at a time so it keeps alignment?
How far should should I open the gap to get a good cleaning and re-caulking?
Any other insite would be appreciated.
Finally, I am documenting what I do for future brave souls. The pictures (and soon to be videos) are at http://sailtomcat.com/hull-deck-joint-repair/ (http://sailtomcat.com/hull-deck-joint-repair/) if interested. So far its just been removing the rub rail and the hull liner.
Thanks in advance for your help
Tom
Tom - may the Force be with you! I am following your project with interest. If you've got leaks, I think you'd be wise to reseal the entire joint.
I have removed ALL the hull to deck bolts on my 1988 CP27 (that's 144 of them, but who's counting?) in preparation for scraping out the old sealant and re-sealing. My current plan is to use an oscillating tool (like a Fein Multi-Master, but I've got a Porter Cable knockoff version) with either a thin scraping blade (like a putty knife) or abrasive disc, or maybe both.
Here's a tip from my previous 19 restoration - when you remove those bolts, keep them in order. Each was individually trimmed to length at the factory after the nut was attached, and because the thickness of the fiberglass varies (a lot), every bolt is a different length. I solved the problem with a Bolt Storage Organizer fashioned from a scrap of 2x4:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/c9162b3f18886de46c05e664b0770683.jpg) (http://s1108.photobucket.com/user/wnewman/media/c9162b3f18886de46c05e664b0770683.jpg.html)
Good luck!
Wes
Wes, I do like that picture and love following your restoration post. Have a name for the 27 yet?
I'm certainly not a boat repair expert, but my thoughts are to focus on determining if you have any structural problems or just a "normal" leak.
If you think it's just leaks, I personally would remove the "gunk" all around the joint, inspect, fix any obvious issue and seal everything up, then reinstall the rub rail.
The hull and deck are bonded with 3M 5200, which is a very strong adhesive and an OK sealant. The reason I say OK sealant is that once it dries, it loses some of the flexibility found in a good sealer. Which is probably why it's leaking now. In order to pry the two apart, the bolts will be coming out, and the sealant deactivated. Wes knows all about Debond Formula! Or you can cut the sealant out with a root-zip tool, but now you're getting into major surgery. I wouldn't do that, way too much work when just resealing, and possibly a little thickened epoxy where you feel needed, like it you see any delamination of the fiberglass layers, big gaps, etc.
This hasn't been discussed much on here, but my vote is to NEVER use any product with silicone on your boat. Nope, no silicone. Why no silicone? Well, it's slippery so very few things will be able to "stick" to the area where silicone was once applied. Everything except dirt that is. Once it has been applied, it tends to be very difficult to remove it entirely. A thin film will remain. Scrubbing will not do it, and chemicals are hit and miss. Sanding will just push the film into the gelcoat or substrate. That means if you need to later glue, epoxy or paint the area it could be problematic.
Macguyver is our resident repair expert and will surely be along shortly to give you the best advice. ;)
*ZAP!!!* and Voila' I appear. LOL
What i did on my 19 was ground out a small channel all the way around the boat, but you could just do a side, then blew it out with air, then cleaned with acetone, then I filled with a mix of West System 105/205 and 404 filler. I would put a small amount on the tip of their brand of mix sticks, and push it into the joint.
The depth of my groove wasnt a ton, like maybe 1/8 inch by 1/8 inch.... And I wasnt too worried about that really, just enough for a small groove, concentrating on the leaky points a little more, not excessive.
After filling it, I sanded mine, you wouldnt have to! I re did the entire boat so I had more work, which for me was primer and several coats of paint on top of the seam.
The epoxy can be left as is, maybe sand to profile, but you are good to go.
Now the chainplate is another story. You will have to remove it. I rebedded mine with butyl (no a MacGyver favorite!) and then filled the rest with Life Caulk. Behind the chain plate you will find a hole at the part that it goes through that lip. That is what all was filled with Life Caulk. I did 2 fills, one primary, the next was to fill it out a few days later. This proved to be a very nice fix for me. And if I ever went insane, I would do it again.
NO SILICONE! :)
When you fill the hole, tape very nicely the inside, as the life caulk could venture inside and you only want it to go so far.....
Oh, and Acetone removes life caulk, and only wear clothing you hate when working with it...... oddly it appears everywhere......
I liked Wes's Idea, but it was a bit time consuming for me when I did mine. But you have options overall.
Mac
Hi All... thanks for the input.
I am thinking that the grinding a groove idea might be what I go with. If I understand it correctly, I would leave all the screws in, take a grinder and grind a notch about 1/8 X 1/8 right over the joint line, then bed it with the 105/205 and 404 mixture. (epoxy and filler) any ratios on that? I get the idea I would be creating a fiberglass/ epoxy joint at this point. I like the idea. I am a bit nervous about attempting any of this as I havent done boat work in decades. But is sounds pretty straight froward and I have a heated building to work in - at least over the thanksgiving holiday.
I did notice that all the deck bolts were trimmed to length and even some of the nuts were ground short where they ran close to the edge of the fiberglass. If i go that route, I'll use your scheme... I like that. I think my count was around 130 total for the 23
Thanks and I may be back for more advise as I proceed.
Tom
I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here but my advice is to fix what leaks, leave the rest alone. At just approaching ten years old, my 23 is one of the newer ones here and I have a slight leak, more like a dribble at that same point where the outboard shroud chainplate runs through the hull to deck. It is so small that it runs down the inside of the hull and evaps before it can make it to the bilge. Truth is, I've never seen any sailboat with either inboard or outboard chainplates that did not develop leaks at that point. The constant and high stress at that point works the joint until it opens. On inboard shrouds you take off the escutcheon plate and recaulk. On an outboard shroud you recaulk the joint at that point.
I called Hutcheons and asked what to do about my dribble and their advice was to remove the inside teak trim at the point of the leak and recaulk from the inside out. That is what I eventually plan to do.
My point is you are going to do a lot of work if you separate the hull to deck for a fix that will eventually leak again in the same spot.
Thanks for the advice. Multiple few points give me some things to contemplate.
I appreciate it.
Much good advice given here and I'll pipe in with a bit more. My first real yacht was carvel planked and reefing and caulking was a regular part of Winter work. The best joint reefing tool I ever had was a worn-out flat-cut bastard file. Heated the tang (the file's pointy end) to dull red with a Bernzomatic torch, tapped it sideways to more than 90 degrees, and sharpened the tip with a file. It cut clean on all three sides, and unlike folded sandpaper, didn't leave any debris behind, lasted a lifetime and its still in use.
I agree with those of the opinion not to open areas not yet in trouble, just repair the broken parts. I've dealt with both in the boatyard I owned and saw no logic in overdoing it. If you do decide to go guillotine method, and cut the deck free of the hull, fill the joint with WEST System Epoxy but be careful to leave one-eighth to one-sixteenth inch gap for the epoxy to fill. Glue-starved joints are easy to create with modern epoxies. If just dealing with the bad parts, get a small tube of 3-M 5200, thoroughly clean the joints and squirt away. Re-bed the chain plates fully, and plan on replacing all of your chain plate bolts. It's cheap insurance of a long, corrosion and fatigue free life. Good luck.
SMITH
Quote from: MacGyver on November 18, 2014, 07:01:17 PM
*
What i did on my 19 was ground out a small channel all the way around the boat, but you could just do a side, then blew it out with air, then cleaned with acetone, then I filled with a mix of West System 105/205 and 404 filler. I would put a small amount on the tip of their brand of mix sticks, and push it into the joint.
The depth of my groove wasnt a ton, like maybe 1/8 inch by 1/8 inch.... And I wasnt too worried about that really, just enough for a small groove, concentrating on the leaky points a little more, not excessive.
After filling it, I sanded mine, you wouldnt have to! I re did the entire boat so I had more work, which for me was primer and several coats of paint on top of the seam.
Mac
Hi Mac
I wanted to see if I understood so I threw a quick sketch. Is this what you meant?
(http://sailtomcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Deck-Repair-Sketch-700x701.jpg)
The weekend is almost here so I am making final preparations for this task.
Thanks
Tom
You are correct, except one technical term (not a big deal, just letting you know) You are actually filling the crack with Epoxy, and 404 filler, to a peanut butter consistency.
If you filled it with fiberglass, you would not have a easy time doing so, and it is a bigger project.
Like, I said, and I hope I dont sound like a dick, Just letting you know so you use the right terminology. Otherwise you are spot on for the repairs. I did that exact way on mine, and no leaks. ;)
West System is the best on the market as far as epoxy goes. I use many different types and that brand is literally the best. Their fillers are great, and that is why I recommend the 404, which would also be in my opinion the most versatile for use on a plethora of projects for you.
Mac
Thanks Mac...
I bought the 105/205 and the 404 to create the "peanut butter" mixture. And I did buy the west system products. If that is not the epoxy you are referring to, please drop me as soon as you can. I plan on starting on Friday.
The boat is back in the warehouse warming up to room temp now.
Thanks for the advise.
(and ... no, you dont sound like a dick, trust me on that)
Tom
In a slight thread hijack, I would like to thank Mac for all his professional advice. And I'm sure that I'm not the only one who is appreciative. To have access to all his years of experience is priceless- I raise my glass Guiness to you, brother!
Bob23
I just thought I would throw out my point of view on marine epoxy. I have built eight boats over that past 15 years. Of all of the epoxies I have used in my boat building projects I find that the best quality and value comes from AeroMarine Products. Their #300 epoxy resin along with their #21 non-blush hardener is the best I've used for laminating and repairs. The problem I have with West System is the fact that their hardeners create quiet a blush that needs to be cleaned off before coating or painting. Also the prices on West System are very high.
I agree that West System is of the highest quality it is just also true that AeroMarine, MAS, System-Three, Raka and a number of others have products that are of equal quality.
Chris
A long time ago when we and the HideAway were much newer I took my parents on a cruise to escort the Bounty up Tampa Bay from the Gulf of Mexico into St Petersburg. A fleet of much larger sail boats left our sailing club in Gulfport Fl. The weather turned. The easy long day sail turned as well. Soon we were bucking 4 foot plus waves and a big wind from a nasty cold front. We could not keep up with the larger boats and the Bounty easily gained St Petersburg before us, but we keep bashing. Most of the others turned back. It was a memorable time as we arrived sailing very close to the Bounty as it fired its cannon.
A few days later I noticed quite a bit of water in the forward compartments under the V berth. Tracing the evidence back I found a 4 foot area of water fall quality gap between the hull and deck just aft of the shrouds. Worse, the hull was off set a good quarter inch to the out side. I cleaned out the caulking, finding I could stick my finger through the gap! Fortunately we were in a wet slip at the time so I winched the hull up to a piling enough to make the hull & deck flush. Hull #2 does not suffer from bolts; rather it is pop riveted together. I replaced the affected rivets with SS bolts and a generous helping of 5200. I inspected the entire hull/deck joint and caulked where needed. That was about 16 years ago and we are still dry. The fix whats broken and inspect the rest philosophy worked well.
Just an update on the hull deck joint repair. I am repairing using MacGyver recommendation.
I took a grinder and ground a 1/8" groove, then filled it with Epoxy. I did one side and this is what it looks like.
This is after the grinding of the groove.
(http://sailtomcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DeckHullJoint13.jpg)
This is looking down the groove.
(http://sailtomcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DeckHullJoint14.jpg)
After the Epoxy was pressed into the groove.
(http://sailtomcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/DeckHullJoint15.jpg)
Nice work. The lines look nice and clean.
Question: Epoxy will be a rigid material when it dries. Is there any torquing of the hull that would mean you would want something less rigid, like 5200?
Looks Great!
Mac
Hi all... well I completed the repair on the Deck to Hull joint. I have the process I used and pictures at http://sailtomcat.com/hull-deck-joint-repair/ (http://sailtomcat.com/hull-deck-joint-repair/)
I am anxious to see how it all works out.
Thanks for all the advise.
Tom
Great pics and description. I've never seen that part of the boat taken apart - always wondered what it looks like under there. From what I hear, that is a fairly common leak spot on these boats. Nice to know how to fix it.
Thanks for post this.
Quote from: HeaveToo on November 28, 2014, 09:04:58 PM
Nice work. The lines look nice and clean.
Question: Epoxy will be a rigid material when it dries. Is there any torquing of the hull that would mean you would want something less rigid, like 5200?
Interesting question. I don't know what Hutchins used to seal the hull to deck joint at the factory, but I'm guessing it was something like 5200. On the one hand, the joint has a tendency to leak after a number of years, so that is a mark against using 5200, but then why is the factory using it? Although some boat makers do glass over the flange. Are theirs designed with less flex? I don' t know. My guess is the epoxy will create a strong enough bond with the ground-out fiberglass that it will maintain it's bond even as the boat flexes a bit. If I have to repair just a section of rub rail like this, I think I would try epoxy.
One train of thought in this area is that you want the joint to flex a bit. Maybe if there's no give there, a crack could appear elsewhere? I dunno...I'm not a marine mechanic. And I've never repaired that area in my 29 year old 23. When I do it, I'll check back here and further pick Mac's brain.
Bob23
To me, due to the structure there, making it rigid isnt a issue. If you have a bottom up or top down strike on that edge, the damage should replicate the same, and the repair would be similar.
Likewise a hit from the outside towards in, would cause it to be on that edge, pushing in, and the damage would be the same if done with 5200 or Epoxy. This surely could be extended as far as a debate goes, and is just based on what I have seen occur over the years. When I repaired mine, I didnt take it lightly, and this exact repair was the decision I made as well, then my coats of paint overlapped to further seal the area.
Keep in mind that the area is bolted together, and not really meant for flexation, it is a rigid point in the boat. a flexing of this spot would allow the boat to flex improperly when slung, etc. so the top helps maintain the form of the bottom, and etc.
Like I said though, that is not to say it cannot be damaged, cause it can, it is a vulnerable part, but If I was to repair a spot due to heavy damage, It would be repaired as one piece, not 2, and that I have done a few times over the years without issue.
Mac
I thought I would share my thoughts on the Epoxy Resin vs 5200.
I decided to use the Epoxy resin, although I seriously considered the 5200 solution. The reason I decided on the epoxy is twofold:
1) I trust MacGyver's input. He has been doing this for a while, he did a similar repair and I have used his insight on other projects to complete success.
2) I figured if the epoxy solution didn't work for some reason, or cracked in the future, I can always grind out the area again and use the 5200 then. But removing 5200 to do the reverse??? arghhh.. no way.
"Question: Epoxy will be a rigid material when it dries. Is there any torquing of the hull that would mean you would want something less rigid, like 5200?"
I think there is a change to the hull shape. Measure shroud tension on a trailer right before launch and then put it in the water and the tension changes.
When I did the hull/deck joint on Serenity I used 5200.
My Sabre's hull/deck joint was done with butyl tape from the factory and as far as I know was never redone. It is still completely dry after 34 years. I believe the geometry of the joint is a little more complex though as well. Could be worth considering butyl tape on a Compac hull/deck joint too. It certainly works well for any deck hardware sealing.
Shawn
Good point on the butyl, Shawn. But that would mean opening up the flanges completely so you could get the tape in. Definitely the best way to go...and maybe the hardest. Funny how the 2 almost always go together, ayuh?
Bob23
I had the flange completely opened up when I did mine. A little shocking how much the hull flexes with the deck disconnected so getting butyl in would have been ok. The hardest part for me was the rub rail.
Only thing to watch for with the butyl is that the interior teak trim is actually screwed into the sealant of the joint. The butyl is probably strong enough to hold the screws in place but 5200 is likely stronger for that.
Shawn