Hello:
Has anyone swapped off their Racor R12 for a bigger model. I just picked up a Racor 500 that I plan to replace the R12 with. More filter selection (2, 10 & 30 micron), bigger capacity, and this one has a vacuum gage to warn you when it needs changing. Interested to know if anyone has done this.
Bruce
S/V Allure
Hey Allure:
Interesting question. I went through the entire fuel system on our C-27 not to long ago. Even took out the fuel tank and cleaned it with muratic acid. There were two fine screens in the system one at the top of the fuel intake pipe in the tank and the other in the bottom of the fuel pump. They along with the Racor filter and the filter on the engine on the engine provide adequate filtration. I use fuel from gas stations and add both anti fungus and Stabil for good measure. Also keep the tank pretty full.
I have considered a fuel polishing outfit, but it has not seemed necessary yet.
regards charlie.
Hi:
Had the tank out 5 years ago to clean (it was a mess). Recently got caught in a bad storm front and really got bounced around. the next day the engine started stalling occasionally. I then changed all the filters including the one in the bottom of the Facet lift pump. Bleed the system out and it seems to be all right now. I did find in the base of the lift pump cap where the filter is a very small amount of fine black grit. It was not magnetic (there is a button magnet built into the bottom cap) so I'm thinking the aluminum tank might have some oxidation issues going on inside of it. I found a Racor 500 with a vacuum gage installed already on Craigslist today. The gage tells you when the filter needs changing (kind of cool). I picked up a 2 micron filter for it as well. I hope the Facet pump is strong enough to pull the fuel through it (time will tell). I did not realize there was a screen on the intake as well, do you mean the fill pipe for the tank or the where the fuel gets sucked out of the tank?
Thanks
Bruce
S/V Allure
Hey Bruce: It is at the top of the tube where the fuel gets sucked out of the tank.
I was having very bad fuel problems. I thought that the line was clear from the tank to the filter because I could blow through it. For obvious reasons I don't like to suck on fuel lines more than I have to! The fuel had snot like stuff in it and the screen at the top of the tube was working like a one way valve.
Facet pumps are better at pushing fuel than sucking it. I finally placed it just above the bottom of the boat so that it is as low as it could go in the fuel system. Here is an earlier thread on my fuel problems....It has been working like a champ since then.
C27 Fuel Information
« on: February 05, 2014, 08:24:00 PM »
regards charlie
Hi Charlie:
Curious about your setup. You mentioned that the Facet pump was better at pushing fuel rather than pulling. All the setups I've seen is setup so that the lift pump pulls the fuel through the filter/water separator. Is that how you have yours? I questioned the diesel guru at the marina about the size Racor 500 and he said once the unit is full of fuel it becomes a mute issue. I would not use the Facet pump to fill the Racor up anyways, I'll always prefill it when I do install it or when I change the filter cartridge. I'm starting off with a 2 micron. If that needs changing to often I'll go to a 10 micron. I questioned the guru if the Facet is capable of pulling fuel through a 2 micron and he insisted it would not be a problem at all, he has setup a number of boats like that.
Bruce
Hey Bruce: I just went back and read my old post. When I mounted the fuel pump (brand new) on the outside of the head wall, starboard side of the engine compartment just behind the engine compartment door, it had to be placed fairly high in relation to the fuel tank. I was unable to get all the air out of the fuel line. (I recall on our new '86 this was where the fuel pump was mounted.) So I placed the pump on the back of the head wall as low as I could get it.....works fine. The Racor filter is between the tank and pump and is the highest point of the fuel system. I was pretty tired of screwing around with the fuel system by that time, but concluded that the pump couldn't pull much head. At the bottom of the fuel system it is sort of self priming once started.
I replaced the filter...the old one possibly leaked, but I do not think so or it would have been apparent when it was downstream from the pump.
Hope that this makes some sense.
regards charlie
Hi:
My Facet pump is mounted on a board that sepurates the engine compartment and the lazeret compartment on the port side. It is on the engine side face of that board about even with the transmission and the top of the pump is about level with the top surface of the tank. The racor is slightly higher than the pump on the inner wall that forms the head compartment. Wish I had a picture, worth a thousand words.
Bruce
Hey Bruce:
I think that I have some mounting holes where my fuel pump may have been mounted there also. I would not put it back there though, It is very handy to be able to take the boards that separate the lockers from the engine out. I do not bend as well as I used to so I wind up taking those partitions out pretty regularly to work on stuff.
I would say that any fuel pump mounting position that is lower than the Racor filter and the top of the rule tank is probably good.
regards charlie
FYI:
The old lift pump, racor setup and the spin on filter unit was mounted on a board and turned into a fuel filtering system (fuel polishing). Came in handy a few year back. I was surprised when I took it out of the storage shed and unwrapped it and discovered a hole rusted through the side of the filter. Needless to say it confirmed to me the fuel I had run through it a few years back had water in it. Also learned that unless you intend to use the setup again that season take the filters off and toss them. The remaining diesel in the setup had turned into the ugly nasty looking goo. I will be installing the Racor 500 this week. I purchased a 10 micron filter element yesterday just in case the 2 micron filter is to fine for the Facet pump to pull the fuel through it to keep the engine supplied. Anyone out there use 2 micron filters in their filter systems?
Bruce
S/V Allure
Swansea, MA
Yea, my 26rk uses a 2 micron filter which supplies a Yanmar 14 about about 5x times the amount the motor requires. One of our boat yards couldn't believe hake installed a 2 micron filter as a primary, he was thinking a 30 primary and a 10 secondary was about right. If. Memory serves, the 2 micron will handle well in excess of 5 gallons (I want to say 10; but I'm lazy) per hour. The Yanmar 14 sips less than 1/4 gallon per hour wide open (I never get through a 7 gallon tank in a summer unless I am forced to motor across the chesapeake bay and back).
Look and see your fuel consumption and compare to the 2 micron capacity.
You might consider running an outboard fuel line with a primer squeeze bulb from the fuel tank to the filter. When you have to change the filter, especially away from shore in rough weather (this seems to be the time they clog from stirring up the crud in the tank), simply install the filter and squeeze the bulb. This fills the filter and purges the air. This is not my idea but I copied it after seeing how easy it makes a filter change.
BobK
Hi Bobk:
I've seen this bulb setup before and just want to make sure how it is setup. I assume it goes before the racor water separator/filter and the lift pump (I don't believe Yanmars have an electric lift pump). Do Yanmars somewhere have a little plunger button to prime the system after changing the filters? I do have a few question for a universal engine setup for anyone.
!. I assume the "primer bulb goes between the tank and water separator?
2. Does the lift pump have to be turned on to push the diesel Through it with the primer bulb?
3. Do you open the bleeder screw on the spin on primary filter (the one between the injector pump and the electric lift pump)?
4. Do you need to open the bleeder screw on the injector pump?
5. Do you need to crack open the metal line at the injector itself?
I'm hoping the primer bulb eliminates the need for all the bleed points to be opened to let out the air.
Thank you
Bruce
Bruce,
1. The primer bulb does go between the fuel tank and the water separator.
2. The lift pump does not have to be turned on.
3. Yes you do open the bleeder screw on the primary filter. Squeeze until fuel just starts to come out the hole. A quick dab with a paper towel will keep diesel smell away.
4. By following step 3 you should not have introduced any air into the system.
5. Same as 4.
Using this system I can change a filter and have the engine running un just a couple of minutes. Prior to this I had to carry a small container of fuel to fill the filter and always seemed to need to crack the injectors.
BobK
Thank you !!!
I will make sure the primer bulb takes 5/16" line. That will match the rest of the plumbing already there.
Bruce
Hi:
Took off the Facet lift pump yesterday to see if it was the recommended model. The part number is stamped on the mounting ear of the pump. Luckily it was the electronic version recommended by Moyer Marine in CT. Part number is 477-060E. It is five to six years old.
Bruce
Primer bulb.....
Found one in my "pile of stuff" that takes 5/16" Dia. fuel line. I will install it in the fuel line (with the arrow pointing towards the racor) as it passes by the port side locker. Does you bulb feel hard (like on an outboard motor system) when everything is working correctly? End goal is if I get a sense that the motor is losing it's prime (for what ever reason) I can open the locker door give a few squeezes and force some more fuel forward. It's seems like from time to time (after a few hours of running the diesel) that it slows down slightly as if it going to run out of fuel. Sometimes it stall other times it picks up again. I've changed all the filters, clean the base cap of the lift pump out and bleed the system a dozen times. Checked the free flow rate of the Facet lift pump and checked to make sure it is the newer "E" series pump that Moyer Marine recommends. Anyone got any ideas?
The primer bulb feels like the first couple of squeezes on an outboard...not hard but liquid resistance. I would check the fuel pick up in the tank. I have not done this on my CP27 but other boats have a screen covering the inlet and it does get clogged, especially if you have had black algae in the tank.
BobK
Hi BobK:
Two people have mentioned the "screen" on the fuel intake. I assume that the reference is to the fitting on the tank that feeds the diesel to the engine? Going to look more closely today. Still have fuel system issues, not as bad as before but still annoying. The engine was stalling before but now it goes to almost idle then picks back up to speed.
Bruce
Hi BobK:
Took out the tube that pulls the fuel out of the tank and it did not have a screen on the end. Tube came out clean and I then used it to pull some fuel out of the bottom, middle and top of the fuel in the tank. Was easy just put tube in to the depth you want, put your finger over the fitting and pull out tube. I then let the fuel spill out onto a clean white rag. None of it showed any contaminants grit or discoloration. So I don't think the problem is in the tank itself.
Bruce
Hey Bruce:
The screen is at the top end of the tube, you have to unscrew the tube from the fitting that attaches to the tank. On the other hand I understand that Hutchins did not put the screen in later models. Windrunner is an '86.
Hope that your fuel problems are resolved.
regards charlie
Quote from: Allure2sail on August 28, 2014, 08:42:55 PM
Primer bulb.....
Found one in my "pile of stuff" that takes 5/16" Dia. fuel line. I will install it in the fuel line (with the arrow pointing towards the racor) as it passes by the port side locker. Does you bulb feel hard (like on an outboard motor system) when everything is working correctly? End goal is if I get a sense that the motor is losing it's prime (for what ever reason) I can open the locker door give a few squeezes and force some more fuel forward. It's seems like from time to time (after a few hours of running the diesel) that it slows down slightly as if it going to run out of fuel. Sometimes it stall other times it picks up again. I've changed all the filters, clean the base cap of the lift pump out and bleed the system a dozen times. Checked the free flow rate of the Facet lift pump and checked to make sure it is the newer "E" series pump that Moyer Marine recommends. Anyone got any ideas?
This to me sounds as if it is a injector issue. Sometimes they need adjusted. It sounds eerily similar to 3 diesels at work on a few different boats that needed that done suffering from the same issue.... Just sharing an experience, it is really hard to diagnose without actually hearing it to compare to what I heard from these other engines.
Mac
Hi Charlie:
I'll take it apart today to see if it has a screen. I actually had to un mount the tank to get the get the tube out. There was not enough vertical clearance to pull the tube up and out of the tank. I had to slide the tank over a few inches to port...no big deal.
Bruce
Hi Charlie....
Boy you get kudo's for that one !!! Went back and unscrewed the 90 degree elbow on top once I pulled the tube partially out of the tank. Sure enough there was a fine mesh screen in the I.D. of the tube. Took it out it was FILTY with crude. Cleaned it inside and out with a spray can of carburetor cleaner. Must have been like that when I had the tank out 5 years ago. I never took that tube and fitting apart so it never got cleaned. The length of the tube I.D. needs to be cleaned as well, but I will do that this week because to take the tube completely out of the tank I have to un mount it and slide it over a few inches. I just ran out of time today. I think I'll get one of those brushes you use on a rifle and some carburetor cleaner again. The culprit I'm pretty sure was the screen and not the tube, I'll find out tomorrow when I take it out to sail and motor for few hours.
Bruce
Hey Bruce: Amazing isn't it! I hope that helped with your fuel problem...thank Keith Scott he is the one that pointed me in the right direction.
I did not reinstall the screen.
regards charlie
Hi Charlie:
I took out the screws holding the tank down and slid it over enough to get the tube assembly out. Took off the 90 degree fitting and removed the screen. With a rifle cleaning brush and some carburetor cleaner I cleaned the inside of the tube from top to bottom. It did have some black crude in it but not as bad as the screen had on it. Put all back together and engine started and ran fine. I do intend on replacing the fuel line from the tank to the inlet on the "Racor". Everything else has been replaced and I might as well do that part of the fuel system as well. Have not put on the "Racor" 500 setup yet. I want to fix "the problem" before I put that on. I still believe it is a much better water separator/filter than the smaller R12's, plus you can get 2, 10 & 30 micron filters for them. You can also change out the filter without having to bleed the system. As long as after installing the new filter you top of the unit with fresh diesel while you have the top plate off so that no air can get into the system. I'm taking the boat to Martha's Vineyard this week so I should know after this trip if I've solved my fuel system issue.
Thanks again
Bruce
S/V Allure
Hi Charlie:
I put over seven hours on the diesel this weekend and it did not skip a beat...problem solved !!! Now I have to replace the fluxgate compass for the autopilot and I should be back to 100%. Those "NO COMP" messages drive me nuts, happens intermittently but still a pain, especially sailing solo.
Thanks for your input.
Bruce
S/V Allure
Hey Bruce: It is an older boat you just have it fixed until......
What kind of steering do you have.....I think that I still have some working parts for an Autohelm 2000.
regards charlie