I'm in the process of buying a Legacy and I'm going to put an electric w/55 lb thrust on the back. ( I've had a couple larger sailboats in the past and I continued to have problems with the gas motors). Any clue what size battery(s) I should get? I'm thinking of a deep cycle 175 amp/hr..
I can not answer your question
I can only ask 'how Good is good'?
Size and type of battery ... I don't think it's possible to have a 'too big a battery' on board.
Not every trip on electric power can be made from 'close-in' to the dock.
You may find your self becalmed or drifting toward danger requiring several hours under motor/engine power. Then what?
Where is the canoe paddle?
Where I sail it may be a good idea to be able to quickly get out of the way of a 1000 foot oar boat that doesn't see you in the narrow three mile long cut heading into Lake Michigan when leaving the Sturgeon Bay ship cannel from The Bay of Green Bay.
skip.
As you can see it is tight in the cannel. To the right is the seawall at the Coast Guard Station in Door County as the Masabi Miner just enters from Lake Michigan. Don't even get near the prop wash! To the left is another iron seawall for the next few miles. And no where to hide or pull over. So I ask ... how good is good?
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/Com%20Pac%2019%20Comfort%20and%20Joy/MasibiMinerincut_zps57144bcf.png)
Thankfully we won't have any HUGE hazards like the one you pictured, (as I did years ago when I bravely sailed my Snark from Southport, NC over to Bald Head Island through the mouth of the Cape Fear!) but I'm thinking we'll probably get one 175 amp/hr deep cycle and see how that holds up with a 15 amp solar charger. There's a battery indicator on the motor to give us a decent indication of how our juice holds up. And, yes there will be a paddle on board (and a long sturdy line for towing if necessary) Thanks much!
UncleMike,
Congrats on getting you new Legacy! I love my Legacy, but I really wonder where you're going to put a big battery on the thing? There's really not much room in the cabin area, and the standard battery compartment all the way forward is rather small and fits between 2 non-movable bulkheads.
Unless you wanted a big battery box right where your feet are by the short 1/2 height transom and under the tiller, I doubt there is clearance for a big battery under the seats. There's a small diameter (about 6"?) waterproof screw-on hatch on the rear of each seat, but you will not be able to get the battery through it. I'm kinda doubting you could shove it down the quarterberth under the seats either from inside the cabin? Also, if you were to have open holes for wires leading to the battery under the seats, you run the risk of sinking the boat if you were to get water that came in over the transom in following seas. The cockpit itself is self bailing, but the area UNDER the cockpit is not.
Before buying all this stuff, I would recommend waiting until you have the boat, and taking a good look at the real clearances you may have to see if it would fit. I know it's nice being "green" with electrics, but my 4HP Tohatsu barely used 2 gal of gas for the whole season last year, and I must have used it a total of 25 days.
As for your question on what racing class the Legacy belongs in, I can guess the "slow and cheap" class? Only kidding--I'm not a racer. With a 17 foot boat, it's not fast, but 5 knots sure feels fast on a beam reach with the water so close!
My partner and I crawled on and around the boat yesterday at the marina (that we should have done before-man, the berth's tighter than a sausage, and sitting on a pot is going to take some contortions and a sheet!). The installation dude pointed out that the battery could nestle comfortably directly under the hatch-where there is a big dead space (probably where one end of a cooler might go, then easily run the wires to the transom where we'll install a marine plug. The motor will also have a plug. Easy on, easy disconnect So, no need for a gas can or a battery at the stern. He's going to put another plug by the top of the hatch for a 15 watt solar panel. We could also plug in other accessories and/or radio. We're going to need a battery anyway for lights and stuff. (Why Compac suggested to put a battery up front with the switch plate and cabin light all the way forward is beyond me, but alas, I'm finding some of their efforts weren't very thought out-like the pointy popcorn=ouch!
I've had a couple larger tubs in the past (San Juan 21, Watkins 23 and a Stury 20 houseboat) and several gas motors-which required constant maintenance (and profanity). Once I took the San Juan waaaaaaaay up the St. Johns River to Hontoon Island (which is an all-day all-motor trip) and the motor died once we got there. No amount of cursing or on the spot repairs would make her start. I had to get towed all the way back, then paddle to the marina across Lake Monroe with my oar, with my girlfriend and her son's wicked stares and folded arms.
Who knows if this is a better fix, since most people have opted for a gasser, but hey-at 65 what have I got to loose? If it doesn't work, we can always put it on Craig's list or use it stir up a HUGE vat of Margaritas! I'll keep you posted over the next few weeks. Thanks!!!
I have a C16 with electric power. I got a saltwater motor that is about 100 lbs of thrust if I remember right. It was about the strongest one on the market before getting into the "electric outboard" class. I wish it was about %50 more powerful. In dead calm, I can get about 4.5 kts. There have been a few times when I've been fighting the wind and the current and only barely had enough grunt to win. The upside is there have been a bunch of times when I have been sailing out of a channel and got a bit close to a marker, and the "instant on" electric power was very nice to have.
The top speed of a 55lb motor might be high 3's but a stronger motor will be more efficient at those speeds, i.e. longer range. I typically run about half throttle, 3.8-3.9 kts, and I've gone 13 miles on a charge. I use a single, large deep cycle battery and a 15 amp solar panel.
Wow-a 100 lb thrust, never heard of that in a 'lectric! We're going to give this a try. We'll definitely be dropping a big battery in the hold. I was out in a Catalina 22 on the Intercoastal waterway today that had a 6 HP gas kicker. It was very reassuring n a strong breeze.
UM
Maybe its an 80lb. It was the strongest saltwater motor I could find, one of these days I'll walk out into my backyard and actually look.
You might want to check out my article "An Electrified Horizon Cat" on the Horizon page. It is a bigger installation and I had the chance to install during build which is different from your situation. The 205AH AGM batteries have worked well although most of my trips have been combination motor/sailing. Recently did 35NM trip in light winds at 4.5 knots average using less than 50% capacity. Agree with other responses about the delight is dropping hand to throttle and off you go!
We've had our Legacy out twice now in pretty brisk wind on the Banana River in Melbourne, FL (USA) and the electric motor (55 lbs of thrust) is "marginal". It's got us out from the dock and back in. We're still testing her out to see how the battery holds out on an extended run. More to follow.
Unclemike
Like many above I agree that most electric "trolling" type motors are marginal as auxiliary power, the Torqeedo being the exception. When you need power you need it! Newer OBs, properly fueled and maintained are very reliable and it is nice to have an "instant recharge" in the form of a spare gas can! I love the idea of electric power but for my location it is not really practical which is why we have the diesel in our Horizon Cat. Turn the key.....Voila! Instant power!
My electric is now completely dead, cause unknown. What a let down. Looks like I'm in the market for a small outboard again.
I'd certainly recommend the electric, even the portables. I'm looking at repowering a 23 for a fellow later this season, chunking the Westerbeke out and putting a Clean eMarine system in. Lithium is the way to go on the batteries, but you've got to be able to swing a pretty heavy bat. They're 3x the cost of a good AGM, but 6x the life. The real reason is not only life cycle but they can deliver the full load without premature failure (discharge to 0%~20% versus 50% of an AGM), so it's truly a 100Ah (example) battery not a 100Ah battery that only has 50 useable amps.
AND they can recharge as fast as they discharge, near 100% of battery capacity, versus lead acid or AGM limited to about 10~20% of battery capacity (100Ah battery recharges 20A/hr max).
Holler off line with more questions.
Cool website for Clean eMarine. That 5000 model looks really cool.
Have you considered a Sun Cat? Similar size, weight & convenience. But, amazingly, much more cabin and storage space. You can sit up below, and you don't have to sleep in a coffin. Older Suncats will appear on the market if you have 6 months of patience, and at prices competitive with the Legacy. Bought my 2002 two years ago with cloth covered cabin cushions and a very reliable Yamaha 4 stroke 4 hp and a bimini & trailer for less than 11 grand. She's a delightful little boat.
We are satisfied with our 50 thrust lbs electric ("Prowler" from Bass Pro Shop) for getting out and back to the doc, but now, we're more concerned about getting back from going on a trip or running into a storm and not having the power or juice to get back to where we need to be. I wish the LEHR (LP gas) motors weren't so dang "rich"! We might have to look for a good used 5 hp or do a trade.
Uncle Mike
We ended up selling our electric. It was OK for getting in and out of the dock but we had doubts of getting back down-wind or down-current more than a couple miles or in a storm if need be. We found a nice used 4 stroke, 4 hp Nissan. Can't wait to check it out this weekend. It's FINALLY cooled off a bit in Florida and the afternoon storms have died down-Yippee!
Getting the gas motor sounds like a prudent thing to do for those longer trips. I think you'll like your Nissan/Tohastsu 4hp outboard.
During the recent BBB, I had 2 occasions where i needed to motor for 2 plus hours into oncoming wind and tide. I like the extra power ofc my 8 hp Nissan 2 stroke. My range is only limited by my fuel supply on board. I never want to be limited by a battery. Different needs...different motors.
Bob23
the way i see it the weight of the batteries (better be at least two if you want to motor very far) is pretty prohibitive and they sure arent cheap. give me a regular outboard anytime. so far my mercury 4 stroke is trouble free and pretty quiet. at 55lbs its still lighter than the batteries and trolling motor. i dont mean to alter your thinking but i have seen sailboats with electric motors waving for a tow when they ran out of juice
Yeah, as much as I'd like silent power, I'm back to gas outboards. I had the electric repaired and it failed a second time. So much for the reliability of fewer moving parts. Plus, fighting headwinds and current with inadequate power could be dangerous in the gulf. I wish electric worked better, but it'll be gas outboards for me, for a while longer yet.
We still have the battery on board that we were using to power the electric motor. We need it for all our lights.
I too, have been enamored with the possibility of electric propulsion on boats for quite some time. Perhaps it's because of my Electrical Engineering background.
Nevertheless, after careful consideration of the intended use of my many small boats over the years, I've chosen outboard propulsion for ALL of them!
And, properly maintained and fed (stabilized non-ethanol fuel), they have never let me down.
However, all that said, electric propulsion is still a viable option under certain conditions and circumstances.
capt_nemo
Just as the first cordless power tools under performed thier corded counterparts, the latest generation of Makita (my favorite) 18 volt lithium ion battery tools are incredible. And they keep getting better. I'm sure as battery technology evolves, electric outboards will become more practible. Whereas with the first generation it was "how many charges per day" now its "how many days per charge". It really comes down to the battery technology.
A client of mine recently boat an electric SmartCar for local use at her house on the Jersey Shore. But the range is so limited (about 65 miles) that it had to be trucked down from the dealer! Consider the irony! But also consider that the Tesla has a 300 mile range. Who knows where electric power will be in 5 years! Maybe a D cell sized battery will be pushing our electric outboards!
That being said, I'll keep my Nissan 8hp 2 stoke for now. She's always there when I need her.
Bob23
I agree with Bob, the technology will need to advance to make electric viable. The analogy to portable power tools is a good one. I had planned to rebuild five 19.2V NiCad battery packs for my Porter Cable tools but I bought a cheap Lithium Ion driver to tide me over until I could do the rebuilds. I was so impressed that my plan now is to scrap the batteries and eventually the tools and replace all with LI. I'll hang on to the tools for a while to see if some enterprising individual comes up with LI replacement battery packs for old NiCad driven tools. I've also scrapped my corded hedge trimmer and am planning to scrap my gasoline weed trimmer/edger next spring in favor of LI driven tools.
In addition to range and power, cost is a big issue. For a sail boat, substituting batteries for ballast as an initial design rather than a retrofit just seems like the right way to go. I was really impressed with the Compac Electric option for the Horizon Cat, Eclipse etc. until I found out it was a $16K option. As much as I like the idea of electric done in that manner, those numbers just won't work. And I fail to see any real advantage to electric outboards whether purpose built or trolling conversions. Although I prefer an inboard for weight distribution and reducing stern clutter, Capt_Nemo's conclusion that a well tuned and maintained outboard, which will be trouble free if kept up, is a much better choice at this time than the electric outboard options.
The LEHR motors might have been a great option, using LP gas, but some of the reviews about quality concerns on the net persuaded me otherwise. It may be the engine of the future, once they get the kinks out.
http://golehr.com/
I guess enough people are buying drills and edgers to drive the development of those. Its kind of crazy to me that there isn't a lithium ion powered outboard with the batteries built in where the engine normally is. I commute at highway speeds in comfort with the AC on in my electric Nissan Leaf, in the abstract, it should be orders of magnitude easier to push a dinky little sailboat around at 4mph for an afternoon. Seems like boats are going to be delayed behind many other electric markets for their technology. Oh well.
That being said, those electric Horizon Cats would be wonderful for a silent cruise out in the gulf at sunset.
Quote from: Unclemike on October 10, 2014, 12:24:19 PM
The LEHR motors might have been a great option, using LP gas, but some of the reviews about quality concerns on the net persuaded me otherwise. It may be the engine of the future, once they get the kinks out.
http://golehr.com/
Without regard to quality, fuel storage would be a problem for me and I'm sure many others. A 20lb propane tank which is probably all that would fit in the fuel storage area is 366K BTU's. A six gallon gasoline tank which is the largest tank that will fit in the area holds 684K BTU's. If, for instance I wanted to go from my marina (which does not have a refill station for propane) up the ditch to Lake Pickwick, I could not make it on one tank of propane and would have no reliable refill on demand opportunity. I could make it easily with one tank of gasoline. Additionally, there is no place around here to top off a partially filled tank. If you want to fill a partial tank, you still pay for a full tank. With my gasoline tank I just stop along the way and pick up some unleaded gasoline in my top off can and fill the boat tank when I get there.
And if you want propane in a small tank this time of year around here, you are liable to have to wait several days to a week. All the propane suppliers have all hands on deck filling the rural house and farm tanks before the heating season, they don't want to fool with the gas grill and shop heater crowd. I know, I just went through that.
Also in this area propane is going up in price and gasoline is falling like a rock. I paid $25 recently to fill my shop heater tank. The cost for the equivalent BTU' of gasoline is about $11.50
just some things to think about.
Refill,recharge, that is the question.......! Electrics would be great if there was a way to have an instant recharge. Tesla has a 300 mi range..... But how long / where to recharge? Battery tech IS the answer. Til then.....nothing better than a spare tank of fuel.
Actually, I stand corrected: Teslas have about a 265 mile range. Not bad for a performance car. Maybe the new Tesla battery factory may be part of the answer. How about a Mr. Fusion on top of a nuclear powered outboard?
Or we could follow Lin and Larry Pardeys lead and go engineless! Now there's a concept.
Bob23
The old ships that were "engineless" pulled in and out of port with the assistance of a steam launch or tug. They had an engine... it just happened to be in a different boat that was on hire from the port. The Pardeys are a step or two beyond. Maybe I should buck up and just go with oars. It'll make for a better story next time I'm stuck in a storm.
Bob23,
Engineless. Now that's an interesting concept that I've toyed with for many years, including those early years when Lin and Larry Pardey cruised extensively without an engine.
My interest in manual propulsion for small boats, as primary or alternate means, continues to present day as I have been toying with a few ideas for my Sun Cat.
With a little effort, most of our small trailerable sailboats could be moved in close quarters or dead calm with either rowing oars, single sculling oar, or Yuloh.
However, for various reasons there appear to be very few sailors who are interested in, or inclined to try, potential manual propulsion methods for their boats.
Just food for thought.
capt_nemo
Don't underestimate the use of manual propulsion!
It seems that we are obsessed in the US with keeping to a schedule and thus insist on (usually overpowered) motors. It's only in the last 300 or so years that engines were even available, and before that when the wind didn't serve you rowed, sculled, drudged or just waited at anchor for the tide. A good read on this is Charlie Stock's book "In Shoal Waters" where he describes cruising extensively in an engineless boat predominantly in the strong currents and tides of the english Thames estuary. That is probably even more relevant to us than the example of the Pardeys, who were more blue-water sailors than coastal.
I wrote in a post on this last year http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6805.15 (http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6805.15) where I commented on the continuing French tradition of sculling quite large boats in challenging waters (30 foot tides and 7-knot currents).
Remember about a year or so ago Sean designed and built a sculling oar for his 23? I believe it worked but was ineffective in the tides he sailed in. Connecticut, me thinks. In the tides we have here in Barnegat Bay, NJ, I don't think oars of any type would move the boat into a 2 or 3 knot current. Add a headwind and no way it would work.
But when I had my old Seapearl 21, before I got my outboard, I did just fine with 9 1/2' fir oars. But then, I like to row!
We've all had occurances where our motors failed and we had to resort to sailing back. I have and I seemed to have survived just fine. If your'e one of those guys who haven't experienced the above, just wait: you will.
Bob23
Quote from: Bob23 on October 11, 2014, 04:19:47 PM
Remember about a year or so ago Sean designed and built a sculling oar for his 23? I believe it worked but was ineffective in the tides he sailed in. Connecticut, me thinks. In the tides we have here in Barnegat Bay, NJ, I don't think oars of any type would move the boat into a 2 or 3 knot current. Add a headwind and no way it would work.
But when I had my old Seapearl 21, before I got my outboard, I did just fine with 9 1/2' fir oars. But then, I like to row!
We've all had occurances where our motors failed and we had to resort to sailing back. I have and I seemed to have survived just fine. If your'e one of those guys who haven't experienced the above, just wait: you will.
Bob23
It was Curtis V the thread is here: http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6705.0 Not sure it worked all that well.
When I first got my Columbia 8.7 the inboard motor was somewhat unreliable and for the first six months I owned her I returned to dock under sail more often than not. Got fairly good at it but there was adequate room to tack in the harbor and between the finger piers Additionally my slip was fairly wide giving me some wiggle room tacking in there, flagging the sails and catching lines. Going motorless with my 23 would be much more difficult. The finger in is only about fifty feet wide, usually with wind on the nose and one side is the fuel dock and often there is a boat refueling there. The slip is often shared and when it is and it happens to be a pontoon boat there is only about a foot on each side of the boat to bring it in. And I single hand as often as not. Don't plan to go motorless unless the spectators are willing to pay for the comedy act.:)
The romance of sailing engineless is a wonderful thing! I mean c'mon my heros, the Pardeys sailed around the world engineless! Unfortunately, the world most of live in has that parameter called "time available"driven by things called commitments (jobs, family, home maintainence,etc,etc). With limited time available we don't have the luxury of heaving to and waiting an hour or more for the tide to turn favorable (if the wind isn't) so that we can row/scull our way to our dock or mooring. Don't even mention guests who may be less enthusiastic about the romance of sail! Then too there is the issue of safety or a real emergency and many marinas prohibit sailing to a slip or dock. Therefore, pragmatist that I am I will cherish my reliable engine and hence maximize my enjoyment of the time I have to be on the water. All that being said some of my most satisfying sailing moments have been sailing into a slip or dock singlehanded, gliding up to the dock, stepping off the boat and tying up with about the same effort needed to park my car in the driveway! Try it if you have the opportunity! ;)