Gonna see if I can get her seaworthy again. Will need help and advice from my com pac friends.
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/fenderstratman41/20140220_163302_zpsf90ed85e.jpg)
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/fenderstratman41/20140220_163321_zpsafeccc83.jpg)
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/fenderstratman41/20140307_165004_zps9ff2c514.jpg)
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/fenderstratman41/20140307_165054_zpse56bc8e3.jpg)
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/fenderstratman41/20140307_165033_zps6b0e16c9.jpg)
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/fenderstratman41/20140307_164935_zpsef4adc3f.jpg)
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/fenderstratman41/20140307_164927_zpsefe773ec.jpg)
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/fenderstratman41/20140307_164759_zps55dc009d.jpg)
Believe it or not, those are not the worst "before" pictures we have seen of a 16. If you need motivation search the site for a couple of other total renovations. They actually turned out to be nice looking boats. Good luck!
Mike
Welcome Stratman:
Hey, it's a Compac so it has a strong pedigree. Looks like a lot of work mostly cleaning up. Even that mast foot can be repaired. In my opinion, you really don't want bolts and fender washers at that mast foot. In the event if a dismasting, it's better for the foot to break away rather than take the deck with it. I'd just use an adhesive caulk and stainless wood screws. Under normal sailing, there is very little latteral load on the foot.
Do for it! You'll be happy you did. There are lots of 16 guys here and you'd be able to scrounge up many parts from the site here. Compacs are well supported by the factory and parts are readily available.
Bob23
Hmm, with a name like fenderstratman, it sounds like you have a passion for more than just sailing! welcome and good luck with the project.. thanks for starting off with pics... we hope to see many more as you tackle the job. my brother is a musician - i grew up listening to lots of screaming guitars... and he still plugs in at times, but he has settled down a bit in the latter part of his fifth decade - currently works as a clinician with Martin Guitars, traveling all around the world, demonstrating Martins.. we tend to like the acoustic side of things :) jt
Lots of work ahead.......and cost. I would encourage you to find a CP like this one: http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scompac16254.html under $2k, and ready for your personal touches.
shazam aka Emmett
Appreciate the input so far.
Jthatcher you're right. I'm a professional musician so sailing IS a close 2nd :) Touring with Martin would be a dream job!
shazam that would be too easy :) A friend of mine actually owns this boat. We agreed I'd put in the work if he put in the $$$. I like the endearing challenge of restoring a boat to seaworthiness. I live in central Florida and have always dreamed of sailing out into the gulf. I'm hoping the blood, sweat, tears, and money will make it much more enjoyable.
Salt water ... hummmm don't worry about the tabernacle, pound her straight. Rebuild what's under it, new compression post ... but most of all your arm is going to fall off grinding the dirt off with 80 grit.
Then roll-on a skim coat with epoxy resign. Sand and paint. Not much wood to go bad. And no wood cores, plywood hard points? Yes. Fiberglass doesn't rot but UV can powder it.
If the keel cement is not busted through the fiberglass, leave it alone. A few holes? Skim coat and sand and paint.
Then the rig/sails ... that's where the money is going to go.
Interior, clean and paint. New cushions.
Good luck.
Me? I'd cut her apart with a chop saw and sell components, then toss or burn the dregs.
A little paint and a little lace will make her what she ain't.
Keep in mind what you'll have when it's finished. Work the boat for love, not to make money.
skip.
I agree with Greene,
Really not that bad. My only advice is those things work better on water than land. ;)
Just kidding.
im inspired, i think im gonna do a pencil drawing of your first picture. and best of luck----as they say in the classic car world----dont crushem---restorem
yes she looks like she wants to break free doesn't she...
The sad truth is you can buy a decent one for a lot less than than it will cost to rebuild this one. Sad to see a boat that has been so neglected. Good luck! Your reward will be in satisfaction, not in$$.
Strat:
Not a bad deal if your friend is gonna kick in the bucks for the restoration. I agree with you, it'd be a shame to cut it up. With enough $, blood, sweat, tears and beer- you could have a beautiful boat.
Go for it!
Bob23
Looks like a candidate for a "Sailboat Company Trans-mografication" into a Trawler/sailor.
TG
I have to assume you have the spars and standing rigging and it is all in good enough shape to be reused. If not, the project is not financially worth the effort. Or it should be reconsidered as a trawler conversion.
I got my boat with a mangled tabernacle and spent some time trying to pound it out, then found out that you can buy them inexpensively from Hutchins. Also agree with Bob, rebuild the step then attach the tab bracket with sealant and wood screws. It is supposed to be breakaway in the event of a dismasting, protects the more expensive component, the mast.
Have fun with your project. I like to see them brought back.
Do have mast, boom, sails... shouldn't be too bad. Biggest issue will probably be straightening the tabernacle and fixing the compression post. Finding a few missing parts and wood trim around the companionway... little things "FAMOUS LAST WORDS"
The tabernacle is just a piece of tin. Put her in a vice and clamp on a vice grip and bend her back straight.
The compression post, round or square is just a piece of pine ... hit the local lumber yard. Smack it up there unsecured like and use two Lag screws on the bottom at the 'thwart' wall separating the vee birth/quarter birth. Do not set the compression post on top of the keel. Two fingers of day light for heat and strain expansion.
Clean out the [once already repaired] area on top and underneath of the tabernacle and fill the dry, cleaned void with resign and new plywood and be done with that. I like through bolting with 1/4-20 bolts, washers, and finishing washers and acorn nuts for good looks. The factory just used four 1/4 inch wood screws. Good until the wood rots.
skip.
I respectfully disagree, skip.
The tabernacle is stainless, not tin, and should be fastened with wood screws, not bolts. You want it to pull out if a demasting occurs, not pull the glas out of the structure. It can be straightened with just a vice, and you want even pressure across it. It you see stress cracks...call Hutchins and get a new one.
The compression post is teak, not pine. The post should butt up tightly up against the cabin top. Not tight as in jacking the post up with a floor jack tight, but snug nonetheless when the lag bolts are tightened at the bottom of the post. It should not allow the cabin top to move downwards. While teak is not required, you want a low-expanding hardwood for the post. Pine is a soft wood and a very poor use in this application, IMHO. The post should be clear coated in epoxy to prevent humidity changes, and thus prevent expansion (well, minimize it anyway). I don't beleive the factory does this, but me thinks it's a good idea.
Also the repair looks, to me, more than just applying epoxy resin. Perhaps cutting the area out from underneath, applying a layer of woven roving or perhaps 2-3 layers of 6oz epoxy impregnated fiberglass with wood backing plate, also encased in glass (glass under and over the wood).
How about the bow eye? (as pictured last). Is there anything that goes between the outside hull and the inside hull liner other than wood shaped to the V of the hull? Does anyone have a picture of how this should look?
Do a search for bow eye on this site. There's lots of discussion relating to replacing/repairing bow eyes, several with pictures. Seems wood is not the only backing plate used. One 16 I owned even had a hard rubber backing plate, with washers between that and the nuts. Worked well.
I straightend my mast foot, not easily done but it is possible. Mine was not quite so bad and it hadn't nearly torn off like yours but I was determined not to take the easy way out and order a new one when the old one was repairable.
I'd think almost any wood would work for a compression post. Even pine doesn't expand very much lengthwise...the load here is in compression. Even thought the factory may have used teak, it seems to me a waste of an exotic wood in an area where the loads can't be that great. I've even heard of small boat guys removing the post at night for greater room while bunked down. I'm not sure I'd advocate that in a 16; I'm not sure of the static loads while the boat is resting. A hem fir 2x4 would work fine in a pinch.
Bob23
I'd take note of brackish's comment about the tabernacles being relatively inexpensive from Hutchins...I'd find out how much and go that route if it's not outrageous (and you can pass the red-face test with the person paying the $$$).
The mangled one is going to be a 300 series stainless and will have already work-hardened quite a bit from the initial deformation. Bending it back to shape will get progressively tougher as you work the metal further. IMHO, you may get lucky and get it back into a reasonable approximation of the intended shape, but it's usually a skilled metalworker (with a lot of heavy-duty tools) that can get to that point without resorting to heating to cherry red and then quench-annealing (after which you'd have to repolish the blackened surface).
See this link: https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=40&cat1Name=Hardware&familyID=27&familyName=Tabernacles+%26+Pins (https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=40&cat1Name=Hardware&familyID=27&familyName=Tabernacles+%26+Pins)
A new tabernacle would be under 60 bucks. Hardly worth the time required to fix the old one ISTM.
TG
Quote from: Tim Gardner on March 12, 2014, 03:06:40 PM
See this link: https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=40&cat1Name=Hardware&familyID=27&familyName=Tabernacles+%26+Pins (https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=40&cat1Name=Hardware&familyID=27&familyName=Tabernacles+%26+Pins)
A new tabernacle would be under 60 bucks. Hardly worth the time required to fix the old one ISTM.
TG
Tim I like that one and will get it if mine ever gets mangled. The feature that I like is that you don't have to pull the pin bolt, it stays in the mast all the time. a lot easier to rig if you don't have to slide that pin in through the tab, spacers in my case, washers and put a nut on it. However, in order to get the benefit you have to buy the pin and spacer tube also, and it is about $12-15.
IIRC the standard tabernacle from Hutchins for my 23 was about $20 plus S&H. Five years ago.
If you get a new one, the old one might make a nice napkin holder for the dining room table. Just think how impressed your guests will be! Although it was hard, I'm just cheap enough to straighten my old one. Admittedly, your's is more bent up than mine was.
Bob23
Alright. Getting down to the nitty gritty. I'll post a few pics of needed repairs. I know very little so "Repair for Dummies" comments are gladly welcome.
#1 The hull liner is falling down. I'm guessing some sort of adhesive to stick it back up. What kind?
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/fenderstratman41/20140318_160351_zps7a3bb49b.jpg)
#2 Cabin roof under mast step. Do I need to remove all this fiberglass and replace and redrill? Isn't there also wood between there? If so it's rotted. How do I replace that?
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/fenderstratman41/20140317_202214_zps8bfc4130.jpg)
#3 Compression post and bulkhead. I know I need to replace the cp and it bolts through the bulkhead. But as you can see here, there's some rot on that wood. You can see the light going through underneath and through the middle on the left side. Do I just try to brace this area? I don't think I'd have the skill to totally replace. Plus it seems as if they poured epoxy over all the wood. It's been tough getting them to separate. Do I just cut a slot out to slide the post out?
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/fenderstratman41/20140318_160155_zps24f559f9.jpg)
#4 Replacing floor planks. Best way to do this? I'm gonna get a pump in there to get the water out obviously, but there's some severe rot in there and I'm afraid of pulling glass while ripping these up.
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/fenderstratman41/20140318_160207_zpsa4ec06c3.jpg)
Shiver me timbers, that's some serious rot that needs attended to. And black mold.
Looks like it all needs to be cutout and replaced?
I seen this right as I am heading to bed.
My current suggestion, Measure, and draw a schematic of the entire project, wood thickness, etc. Rip it all out and then clean it all out thoroughly.
After replaceing the wood, you TAB the glass back in by tieing the wood to the sides, etc. I would start with the interior, then move to ceilings, etc. ground up so to speak.
Be sure the covering to the keel is in good shape, easy to repair now while you are there. And use a vacuum sander.
It looks like a lot of fun to me, my wife would kill me of course, but I know it is something I would enjoy doing....... which is odd because since I do similar as my actual job, one would think I would go home and not want to be on a boat working......
I would probably cuss it until finished project......
Mac
This is the CP-16 I suggested to forget about right?
O.K. no big deal. You asked, " You can see the light going through underneath and through the middle on the left side. Do I just try to brace this area? "
I assume that the light you speak about is daylight filtering through perfectly good fiberglass matt used to create the shape of the hull right?
Once you get it clean and dry, painting with a few coats of Rustoleum Grey enamel will stop the light from coming through. I like this oil based enamel because it dries slow and smooth and hard like a rock.
I scrapped all the paint away under my CP-19 port-a-potty where my bilge pump sits. I didn't want paint being sucked up into the pump when I really needed to pump. Great place for ice and beer. And yes the day light comes through where the paint is not.
Cut off the round compression post and grind and drill it out of the vee birth deck. And put in a new one.
The bulkhead which is nothing more then a piece of plywood going across, port to starboard needs to either be kept in place and a backing board cut and fitted and glued on the INSIDE. Do CP-16's normally have hatches in front of the compression posts?
I don't think I'd go to the trouble of taking the old rotted wood out. Fitting a new structural thwart will never be right and too much work.
Make a template and cut a new piece and glue it in with SixTen thickened epoxy or West System epoxy mix and thickened, and fabricate a temporary wedge to push the new wood on to the old wood till it cures.
Heck forget that ... just shoot some deck screws through and snap off the pointy end that comes out.
Then back the deck screw off a half a turn to pull the snapped off end below the wood.
The new wood can be cut to what ever size is needed to fit it.
The cabin side of the old wood, since it is visible will need drying, sanding, filling, smoothing, and painting. Then call it quits. You may want to upholster that surface with some glued on material. You can cope the new compression post to fit on the new wood for a nice vertical fit.
That overhead delamination ... SixTen again or your favorite goop and prop it up till it's cured. Clean-up any drips. Strong like bull.
The mast step? I'd use a 4-1/2 inch grinder with a flapper sanding disc and work my way down to the fiberglass from the top down to the bad rotted wood. Follow the raised pattern around where the tabernacle is. Don't go any bigger than necessary. Dig out the plywood. There is a chance the inside of the overhead can be saved if carefully sanded, filled and painted after a new plywood hard point is made and fitted above the overhead and epoxied in. Some glass impregnated cloth built up to the right height and you have it made.
Slap the compression post up there and shot two lag bolts through the thwart. Don't attach the compression post to anything on the overhead. The post will sit two fingers above the bottom of the boat.
1/4-20 Bolts or screws The factory screwed down the tabernacle probably so they didn't have to deal with the 1/4 inch bolts from popping through the overhead. Or maybe screws are used as a break-a-way for the mast if it falls. I don't know. Your call.
When my buddy's tabernacle gave way while pushing the mast up on his CP-19 we cleaned out the area, filled the rotted area with copious amounts of Marine-Tex drilled clean through what was left of the hard point and bolted the tabernacle down with 1/4" bolts, washers, finishing washers, and ny-loc nuts. Once cured R&R'ed the ny-locs with acorn nuts and washers. About two hours later we were sailing to the dock from the ramp.
You have a good start on the quarter births ... cut out the wood with a saber saw and leave a 1/2" edge to drop and glue new boards down. Sand and paint. Might want to run the wiring first or put in a few hatched cut outs for wire control.
I like one red wire and one black wire put into a vice and the other end 25 foot away spun up with a drill motor, making nice twisted, tangle free wire way. Your call.
skip.
I hear the haunting sound of Taps being played. I shudder to think of what is yet to be uncovered. Your friend could easily spend double what the boat will be worth post-restoration,not to mention the investment of blood, sweat and tears. While it is a noble ambition to bring her back to life, be sure you are prepared for the task! Good luck!
Skip, thanks for all that. The light I was referring to was only to point out holes where that bulk head board had rotted and you could see through it. I think I'll just put a similar sized piece over top.
With the angles, how do you fit in a new compression post? Do you have to cut a slot to the hatch to fit it in?
Check out some of the complete rebuilds of 16s here. I'm sure there is enough info for most of the issues you face.
Steven (keyskid) has a link to his photos here: http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=5837.msg41172#msg41172 (http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=5837.msg41172#msg41172)
This discussion links to a photo album of a complete rebuild by Terence Drozd (many pictures): http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=3936.msg27435#msg27435 (http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=3936.msg27435#msg27435)
Based on what I see, recommend going their routes of separating the deck and hull, getting out all the bad wood, and work from there. If it were just a few spots, fixing the rotted areas might be justifiable, but to be sure you have the right structure you'll need to get down to the bare glass. You also get to configure options any way you want (both these rebuilds show tweaks of the original boat).
-Justin
Thanks Justin!
" Based on what I see, recommend going their routes of separating the deck and hull, getting out all the bad wood, and work from there. "
That was my first thought, take the deck off. But I didn't say that because ...
At the factory, all this wood goes in with the deck off. Forget it. Once this is done, may as well just scrap the entire boat. Cut the keel off, and use it for the wife's flower box in the front yard.
Way too much work for what you'll get. Hate to be unkind but if you need punishment, have at it.
Me? I'd just patch her up with a new glued on, from the inside, chunk of wood behind the old rotted thwart and toss on some 1/2 inch plywood over the births.
Compression post? Yep like I said, dig out the old compression post and put the new one back in. What angles? It just butts up to the new glued on wood backing up the thwart. Your talking a 1/2 inch just cope that 1/2 inch out if the 'butt-up' surface of the post, and screw it in with two lag screws.
skip.
Or you could look at your boat as a blank canvas with little to lose by making it into a picnic launch, trawler, lobster style boat, motor sailor, cat boat or traditional standing lug, sprit or other free standing rig. It's scary to take a sawzall or jigsaw to a good boat for a major change but there is little invested at this point and opening the cramped cabin would give great access for interior work. The 16 has a hull that could make a great platform for a number of designs. The Sailboat Company, http://www.ipass.net/sailboat/ has some good examples and features from some home build designs could provide additional ideas.
Skip. The post slides through a round hole above the bulkhead. I can't angle a new one in because it hits the roof.
Ahhh Zzzz problem. Thank you. You have explained to me why there is a small 4 x 4 inch hatch BEHIND and toward the bow on my boat.
Is the compression post is too long?
Measure what you need.
Inside of cabin under the tabernacle to four inches above the inside of the hull.
That 4 x 4 inch hatch comes out allowing the bottom of the post to be shoved into the space under the vee birth. That's the angle your talking about. Now that's it's in there, pull it back up and out, pulling the post flush to the thwart. Jam it up against the cabin top. Figure out a way to hold it or C-clamp it to the thwart until lag bolted in. If it's still too long, cut some more off till it's fitted and put the 4 x 4 hatch back in place.
Ezzz a problem no longer.
skip.