Any Autohelm users out there in CompacLand? I'm thinking about buying one...probably the 2000 because I believe in overkill but I've read mizxed reviews. So my next logical move was to tap into the expanse of wisdom, knowledge and experience here. What say ye?
Bob23...thanks in advance
I have the Raymarine 2000+, very handy to have. A few details on the installation are at:
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=2753.0
I also have it tied into my GPS. It can steer by internal compass, follow a track on a GPS and if you have a compatible wind instrument it can keep you at the same relative position to the wind. I have to write some software to get my NASA wind meter talking with the tiller pilot.
Shawn
I've got an ST1000 on my 23 and it is one of my favorite things on the boat. The 1000 does a great job handling the boat, I don't know what the price difference is between the 1000 and the 2000, but I've been pretty happy with the 1000.
I have a Simrad tiller pilot on my SunCat and it works great. The Simrad has a few more adjustments than the Raymarine. Had a Simrad on a CP 27 and all the Raymarine owners that sailed with me were impressed with the way the Simrad handled the boat. The Simrad is a little more money witch I think is worth it. If you haven't sailed with a autopilot you will be surprised how much you will use it. I used it to keep the boat on course will raising and lowering sails and just cleaning up the mess on deck. It also gives you time to trim and reef your sails especially when your single handing. Get one, you will love it.
Bob, I have an ST-1000. It is one of the most useful and the best boat bucks I've spent. I singlehand a lot and the tiller pilot makes that very easy to do. It was easy to install, is easy to set up and, while I'm sure it is a big power user, it has never been too much for my battery reserve.
If I'm going out by myself, I usually set it up before I leave the dock, takes a minute to set it, plug it in. I leave it detached from the tiller and on standby when I don't need it. It is great for steering under power while I am setting the sails and also when I am taking them down, putting the covers on so when I get back to my dock, I don't have all that to do. Point the boat in the direction you want to go, put the rod over the ball on the tiller and hit auto, and it takes over. Mine is also hooked to my GPS, however, I've never used that feature. With regard to using it while sailing, I've found it great on a run or broad to beam reach no matter the wind conditions. On a close reach it is fine with steady winds but it is not that great in gusty or shifting wind conditions, the reaction time is not as good as a human helmsman. I don't know if the other models would be better with that.
If you go for it, I searched the world over, and Ultimate Passage had the very best delivered price on mine. There are also some old threads on the forum about installation and, of course, you can ask here and get help.
Mine, doing its thing. ;D
(http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af200/brackish_photos/P1000504_zps9a6478f6.jpg)
Brackish, our CPYOA sailor posted a photo of a 'ST 1000' something working, and boy I was surprised of how straight the wake was.
Is the boat sailing in a straight line? Just look behind you.
My usual concern is Power Consumption and when does it Run Out? Maybe a solar cell is in use ... usually no generator.
Side Bar: Our boat club recently enjoyed a very fine meal at the yacht club and later our District Commander and her husband re-lived their trip with a Power Point presentation highlighting their trip on an Ocean Alexander 46 from the upper Mississippi River in Minnesota down to the Illinois River, and back up the sewage canal through the Asian carp electric 'stops' to Chicago and on to Door County.
The thing that struck me was these two never stopped talking about all the electronics and radar and using her smart phone to navigate [in a river?] in use on the boat. And all the 'hassle' of finding a marina and a dock with some electricity they could plug into overnight, and the ability to 'communicate' with barge traffic and other boats. And how the entire trip was made with no paper charts. I forget the total miles traveled but they spent $27,300 on fuel, food, and dock rentals.
Come on people ... me and the parents made a trip in our houseboat down to New Orleans and back in 1968 from Starved Rock on the Illinois River. Navigation was page by page paper charts and one VHS radio that we hardly turned on except to talk lock masters. When it came time to tie up for the night we ran the bow up on some muddy beach and ran the spring lines. We stopped from time to time at a town for ice and food and a marina for gasoline. We ran far more miles with no generator and had two alternator charged batteries with a selector switch with one solely used for engine starting. I remember dad saying we averaged one gallon to a mile. Of course none at the dinner agreed with me. They were all bedazzled with the glow of electronics.
All I could think of silently was the woosification of America and now boating.
Sailing is more fun when done with less.
skip.
" Incandescent lights use more power than the tillerpilot. "
How true. What about all the other consumables?
I'm thinking a 90 amp-hour battery hardly ever gives 90 amps for an hour.
I agree when using consumables my deep cell battery usually pooped out about mid-day on Sunday during a three day cruise.
"My usual concern is Power Consumption and when does it Run Out? "
When active their consumption is rated at 0.5 to 1.5amp depending upon boat trim, loading and conditions. If one has a 90 amp/hour battery you could run the autopilot between 30 and 90 hours before hitting 50% discharge. Incandescent lights use more power than the tillerpilot.
Shawn
Bob, I think that the ST1000+ would be way more than adequate on your 23. I used one back in the 90's on the first 19 that we had, and granted that Athena was lighter than our 23's, but it responded quickly and smoothly in many miles of sailing at Round Valley and Barnegat Bay in all conditions. Never ran out of battery, either. Am about to order up the 1000+ for the mighty Beagle 3. I enjoy being a purist at times, but an autopilot makes life easier when single-handing in snotty conditions and getting sails down and stowed, not to mention driving the boat when I want to go below and get hydration, take a leak, whatever. Go for it!
"I'm thinking a 90 amp-hour battery hardly ever gives 90 amps for an hour."
Because you are supposed to only draw them down 50%. Given that you have about 45 amp/hours to work with.
45 / 1.5amp (worse case draw from the tiller pilot) = 30 hours of run time
45 / 0.5 amp (best case draw from active tiller pilot) = 90 hours of run time
That is assuming no other loads (unlikely) and no sources recharging the battery. In my case I have solar (about 2amps / hour) and my Sailpro which can put back up to 5amps per hour.
"I agree when using consumables my battery usually pooped out about mid-day on Sunday during a three day cruise."
Are you still using starting batteries in your boat? They can't be draw down nearly as far as a true deep cycle battery. If one specs their house battery based on CCAs they have bought the wrong battery for this application.
Shawn
WOW!!! 8)
Thank you...thank you...thank you! All you guys are great! I only posted my question yesterday and I'm overwhelmed at the replies. Very informative and enlightening. And I agree with Skip also- I like manual sailing, bike riding, etc. The more user input, the better. I'm gonna get an Autohelm because it will really come in handy while motoring so I don't have to keep my hand on the tiller and constantly adjust. And of course, raising sails will be easier, too.
So far, I've resisted an autohelm of any kind except to lash the tiller with a bungee cord. ( I didn't just say that, did I???) So logically my first step was to seek input from you guys. You have helped me make my decision.
Again, many thanks to you all! I'll raise my glass of Guiness in your honor!
Bob23
Bob23, I have installed many of them, and really enjoy the customers praises of the handiness of the auto helms. Even the wheel mounted ones, people say how well it helps them for just a bunch of different reasons (listed by those above also!) and frankly I hope to one day get.
I have found they are helpful really even on small boats.
Have fun with it, and report back with its usefulness, maybe I can get my wife to let me get one! LOL
Mac ;) ;) ;) ;)
" Are you still using starting batteries in your boat? They can't be draw down nearly as far as a true deep cycle battery. If one specs their house battery based on CCAs they have bought the wrong battery for this application. "
No it's a deep cycle.
Yes. Good point --> Not only is the foiled rudder great ... BUT because it is a balanced rudder with a portion of the rudder ahead of the pivot point much less effort [some rudder under the boat] is required on the tiller. I said before it's like power steering on your tiller.
This sucks up less juice to move the tiller. Good deal.
Bob 23, I have the ST1000 on my C23 and it works great! I have a foiled rudder that makes for easy steering. I also have the same Tohatsu that you have and it keeps my batt fully charged.
Well, to explore this topic further: Anyone have any input on Autohelm vs. Simrad? From what I can misunderstand, the AH is not waterproof while the Simrad is. Is this correct? Intalling anything on the exterior of a sailboat that is not waterproof is like painting the interior of an expensive house without a dropcloth...inviting disaster. Ok, maybe that's a poor analogy but it's the best I have.
Thanks, mates.
Bob23
Supposedly the Simrad has encapsulated electronics and the Autohelm does not. Surprisingly, neither manufacturer seems to indicate the water resistance rating of their gear. I'd expect to see IPX-6 or better for anything exposed in a boat cockpit (Protected against heavy seas - Water projected at all angles through a 12.5mm nozzle at a flow rate of 100 liters/min at a pressure of 100kN/m2 for 3 minutes from a distance of 3 meters.). The fact that neither one boasts about this implies that it's probably no better than IPX-4 or IPX-5 (splashproof or all-angle water jet protected respectively).
If you google-search for the subject of each machine and waterproofing, there seem to be equal anecdotes of water-related failures for each brand. Here's one thread of many with discussion of both: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?132703-Raymarine-Tillerpilot-not-very-waterproof . A lot of people seem to fashion some kind of Sunbrella wrap to provide additional protection and to keep the sun off and coat the shaft with silicone grease.
I had an autohelm 3000 on a previous boat and did not have a problem (other than noticing that the sun made the dark enclosure very hot), but the encapsulation for the Simrad would make me tend to that one slightly.
Thanks, Jon...very helpful. I noticed that the Simrad has no navigation, sail to wind or remote capability. I'm not sure how that affects me but I'm still checking things out. I've never owned an autopilot before but sailed on a friends Norwalk Island Sharpie and his AH was very noisy. Kinda counter to the quiet we all enjoy while sailing.
Thanks again,
Bob23
It's old school, but sail trim can balance almost any boat to sail to wind in a straight line, but usually only upwind. Some user interface is of course required to go downwind.
But for anything forward of the beam, sail trim is your autopilot. Learn this, use no amp hours, ever.
Off the wind, I imagine the same could be done towing a warp or small drogue; will knock you for a knot or two, but if you're balanced and held to the wind angle, and consume no amp hours, why not? Or should I say why knot? Sure, it's not push-button easy; but I make a pretty good living repairing autopilots and related systems that people wear out by not understanding the basics of sail trim and balance, consuming gawd awful amounts of amp hours in the process ....
Quote from: Bob23 on February 12, 2014, 07:23:47 PM
Thanks, Jon...very helpful. I noticed that the Simrad has no navigation, sail to wind or remote capability. I'm not sure how that affects me but I'm still checking things out. I've never owned an autopilot before but sailed on a friends Norwalk Island Sharpie and his AH was very noisy. Kinda counter to the quiet we all enjoy while sailing.
Thanks again,
Bob23
Bob, you need to think back to your single handling trips and figure how you plan to use it. I never get it out if not single handling. If I am I hook it up first thing and leave it on standby. Essentially I use it to allow me to be the deck hand, taking off sail covers, raising sails, stowing ties and covers, clearing fouled lines, going below to get items, spelling me to eat lunch, and then doing the reverse when getting the boat ready to dock. I like to have everything done before I attach the dock lines.
Consequently, the only features I use are the +- 1or10 buttons for course correction and the buttons that chooses standby or auto. The GPS connected features I never use. The one feature I wish I did have is the remote. If I'm up on the foredeck or in the cabin it would be nice to be able to correct course without having to go back to the cockpit. But in reality that is only important during fluky wind conditions.
You are a much better helmsman. It cannot react to what you see on the water or feel on your face that lets you anticipate and correct before the fact. Consequently, it will react after the fact to its internal compass with wider rudder movements and it can be a bit noisy and slightly irritating when it is doing that back and forth. That said, it is still the best boat bucks I've spent for opening up mid week single handling trips done with ease.
Moonlight, I've always had trouble with my 23 using sailtrim to maintain the perfect balance and unattended tiller even locked or with shock cord. I could do it with both of my Columbia's a 24 Challenger and an 8.7, but I've never been able to with my 23.
I've never used the Simrad, but I believe the base model was about $80 less than the RM when I got mine. If the thrust output was the same I think it would do fine for what I do with it. However, I would pay extra for remote.
"It's old school, but sail trim can balance almost any boat to sail to wind in a straight line, but usually only upwind. "
To a point, but on a smaller boat if you move around the changes in weight will alter course. An autopilot will correct for that. That makes it very handy for changing a headsail, putting a cover on the main...etc...etc.
Shawn
Moon:
The 23 is so unbalancable in the manner you describe. As Shawn noted, even slight changes in weight distribution can change the course. Going below to use the head will actually bring the boat up into the wind (tiller lashed). And I have new sails and a foiled rudder. When going to windward on my 23 and everything is balanced, I can actually "surf" the boat by steering with changing where I'm standing. It's great fun! But they are that sensitive.
My main intended use for an autohelm, if I go that route, is for extended periods of motoring in relatively open water, to free me up to do deck tasks as Brack has noted, and just to take a tiller break when needed. I'd much rather sail by hand and I agree with Brack- my reflexes at the tiller are faster than any autohelm.
I have experimented with several self steering tiller lashing techniques, some of which I've learned here at the site and they do work to some degree.
Thanks so much for all this imput from guys who obviously have more experience that I. You all are an invaluable asset...and great fun!
Bob23
Bob,
What GPS do you have? Does it have NMEA output?
The GPS is nice for motoring and great for raising/lowering sails. I use it quite a bit while sailing too though. Lets me use the binoculars more, handle sail changes or trim...etc...etc.
"- my reflexes at the tiller are faster than any autohelm. "
True. Instead of correcting via the tiller you can do it with sail trim when you have the autopilot running. If you have a wind instrument connected to the tillerpilot it will keep you at the same angle to the wind if desired.
BTW, from what I read the ST2000 responds faster than the ST1000 due to the drive system. The 1000 uses a screw drive, the 2000 is a recirculating ball. I have heard that the 2000 is quieter because of this as well. It is unobtrusive on my boat.
Shawn
Shawn:
I have a Garmin 541S which is new and just about installed. I haven't even turned it on yet. I think it will interface with the AH but I haven't explored that yet. And being a techno-challenged guy, that might be lightyears ahead of my capability.
Interesting difference between the 1000 and 2000. I was leaning toward the 2000 just because I like to overkill just about everything. I take it you have the 2000?
Bob23
Hi Bob,
The 541S does support NMEA but I haven't found what sentences it supports yet. The one you really want for the autopilot includes cross track error. What that does it allow the autopilot to correct for leeway (or tide) and to stay on the actual track you selected on the GPS. That can keep you from drifting over rocks/ground if you are just using a compass heading on the autopilot.
I do have the Raymarine ST2000+.
Shawn
Thanks, Shawn. I really want to use the thing as I noted above. Because I'm not a techno-geek (not saying that you are) I realize I could do alot of damage dabbling in this occult of electro-auto-navigational voodoo. A tiller I can understand. A compass and charts I can understand. And I'll probably get the hang of this chartplotter.
On the flip side, I am a gadgeteer of sorts, too.
Bob23
Bob,
S'Okay... I am totally a techno geek. The chartplotter/Tillerpilot is actually easy. It is just two wires to hook up.
On the chartplotter you just move the cursor to where you want to go (or pick a saved waypoint) and tell it to navigate there. On the tillerpilot you just put it into GPS mode and it will steer the boat to stay on your track and correct for tide/leeway.
If you have multiple waypoints on a course the tillerpilot will handle that too.
Shawn
Well, Shawn:
When I get everything hooked up, I may just pick your brains on this. I think it's cool that it works, even so magically. It's just that I'm a manual input sorta guy. Friction shifters on my old 1992 Bridgestone RB-2 road bike, oar-on-gunnel rowing on the guideboat. No GPS in either the car or truck- I prefer paper maps although I have used Google maps. Heck, I still use a framing square to lay out stairs and rafters.
I guess I should take at least a baby step into the 21st century sometime. I will get in touch with you about talking me through this. I guess as with any 60 year old geezer like myself, half the battle is realizing it can be done. I'm such a non-technogeek that I still use only a watch with hands!
Bob23 aka Barney Rubble
Remember that setting a fixed course, either to a compass heading or a GPS track will not be a completely hands-off exercise in a sailboat. You'll still need to be trimming the sails to match the heading. You could interface a wind-direction signal as well and use that to drive the autopilot (you then use the GPS to find out where on earth the wind ended up taking you). The AH3000 I had was pre-NMEA/Seatalk but I did try it hooked up to a windvane...frankly more trouble than it was worth to me and I ended up doing the "set course + trim sails to suit" routine anyway. Not too much trouble unless close hauled, when it was possible to end up in irons if you weren't paying attention and the wind headed you. There is an advantage in GPS versus compass setting as Shawn points out, just be sure not to have a waypoint on a navigation mark...plenty of collisions have happened that way.
All this talk really made me want one of these, but also made me appreciate the thing I saw one time, where the guy had a line that attached to the tiller, and went to the boom somehow creating a self steering setup that was based off of the boats own control.
All these systems are really sharp, no matter the tech behind it, low or high.
Mac
I have a ST 1000 on the CP 23 I just sold. It worked great for MANY years. Only one issue when I got busy and let it hit the end of its stroke for a rather long time. Instead of putting it on standby I let it on auto and it continued to try to make a course correction when it was detached from the pin.
In any event, I used it ALOT and loved it.
Still can't wait to pick up our new to us CP25!!! :)
Gents:
Iv'e heard of guys crashing into markers. The GPS just did what it was told to do. I mainly want "Otto" to get an occasional break. Even with the tiller lashed and the helm balanced, when one goes below it a 23, it'll tend to round up.
I've only played a bit with self steering systems via main sheet to tiller. A search here will reveal Newt's system which apparently works great on the 23 he used to own.
I'd rather have as few electroninc gadgets on the boat as possible but a reliable VHF, compass, GPS and now Autohelm can make life a bit more enjoyable. Until they go on strike!
Bob23