I am sure there will be many times next summer, where I either lazy or it is too windy and I will want to sail under a single sail. I have the stock main and jib and two Genoas of varying size.
What would sail would you raise if you only had one?
(ease of sailing, best performance?)
thanks
I think the simple answer is the stock jib sail. It will move you in any wind, and you have the ability to back wind it to come about. can't do that with just the main. Having said that, practice with all your sails in different conditions to know what they will do for you. Sailing is an art after all. :)
Andrew
If the wind is blowing I recommend the small jib and a reefed mainsail.
That will allow you to sail safely and in control.
If you sail with the headsail alone your rig will not have the support provided by mainsheet tension and you could easily put too much stress on the shrouds.
In addition, without a mainsail to balance the sailplan you will have excessive lee helm, a dangerous condition, that could cause loss of control.
Regarding being too lazy to raise two sails......if you have had that much to drink, maybe it is a good time to stay at the dock.
What pacman said is spot on. Karma added ;)
I feel similarly to Pac.
When I started sailing my boss told me something I will never forget.... THe Main is the engine, the headsail is the supercharger.
Made sense to me, and you cant have superchargers without a engine first. So when we sail I deploy the main first, then headsail. If we sail on one sail, it is always the MAIN just because it balances the boat.
One time I told my wife, lets raise jsut a headsail, so we did, and the boat did a 180 (or something there abouts) and we tried again with similar results. (CP19)
So we decided the best thing to do it main only, and in light winds deploy the 155 and MAIN which helps us scoot about with ease.
I second the opinion if you are too lit up to be messing with sails, then stay at the dock.
Mac
topping lift, tension on the mainsheet and the stock jib works great for me. I have not experienced any lee helm.
j
One day in winds of 16-18 kts and gusts to 26, I couldn't sail to windward on the main alone. On standard jib alone, was able to sail the usual 60 degrees off as noted by the gps. Never felt the rig was taxed with just the headsail. Btw the boat hove to just fine with the jib alone when it was time for foulies and a beverage. I also tuck a reef in by heaving to on starboard to preserve my right of way plus the boom is out of the way and I can more easily reach the control lines. I singlehand so ymmv. Happy sailing....
Truth to the term " Three Sheets to the Wind" If the captain does not manage his sails they will manage him.
Big wind, one sail?
I'd raise the headsail, in the case of my CP-19, that is a 155% lapper.
As a matter of fact the ONLY time I buried the rail and shipped water over the cockpit combing was using the headsail.
Why the head sail?
1~It is on a furler so easy to control. Easy to pull the sail in without standing up to secure the main sail to the boom. That's safer.
2~The problem is when pulling and plowing the bow through the water, she is not going to come-a-bout very easily.
skip.
Regarding stress loads on the rig:
Unlike the C-16, the C-19 has a backstay that will support the rig even if the mainsail is not in use.
When sailing a C-16 with a mainssail up, the mainsheet helps support the three-wire rig, in effect acting as a backstay
Although sailing on headsail alone might work on a C-19, it would not be well advised on a C-16 which does not have a backstay to support the rig.
How the boat handles with a headsail alone is a separate matter:
If the C-19 can be controlled safely without the mainsail (without lee helm) then that should be fine.
However, a C-16 can develop serious lee helm under a headsail alone that could easily result in loss of directonal control.
Different boats, different rig designs. different techniques required.
If your C16 was set up with a topping lift, that could give you the support needed on the rigging like a backstay. Can anyone explain to me why the boat would be so unbalanced with the jib alone?
With the two side stays BEHIND the mast I figure that 'two behind is better then one behind.'
And heck the boat is not that heavy. The sail's not that big, the load has been calculated and the boat can take twice what the skipper can.
And the boat can be picked up with a crane from the mast?
Just some of my crazy givens.
skip.
Pretty good primer on the subject. I've used both just the main and just the jib including the spinnaker but it always depends on point of sail and conditions. This is an accurate, at least from my experience, explanation of what you can expect for each depending on point of sail and conditions.
http://www.working-the-sails.com/yacht_sailing.html
I have never had a problem with sailing with jib alone ..........................actually sails fine......nies
Umm fellas, I don't understand the admonition regarding drinking, himno didn't indicate he would be inebriated, he indicated he may feel lazy.
As to the rig support, I agree with Skip, the aft positioned stays are taking the load of a backstay. Here is how I would think of this issue. Lets assume that the wind is blowing at 12kts. No one would think twice about sailing with full sail and the rig not being supported. But lets say we are thinking twice and we sail to windward with the stated idea that the leach tension helps to support the mast from the aft. So far so good, but then we decide to turn downwind. Anybody keep their main sheeted in for aft support???? Didn't think so. We sheet out the main, pole out the jib and the boats sails with full sail - no backstay, no leach tension and just the side stays to support the mast. Sure the apparent wind is now down about 8 kts and the associated loading too. The point is how many think the aft load on the rig downwind with full sail at 12kts is more than the force on the jib alone at 18 kts. I know we have some decent math guys here ;D so if you are bored and want to take a stab at this......
Lastly, I have never experienced lee helm with just the jib, especially in higher wind conditions. What I do hear about is the excessive weather helm and the need to step the mast forward of vertical, ensuring the rudder is fully forward and the virtue of the foiled rudders in that they extend forward to lessen weather helm. On my 16, 18 kts with only a jib provides plenty of weatherhelm I will guess a force of 3-4 lbs, enough that after beating for several hours you start to feel it.
In summary, I don't think we will loose our rigs because we have no backstay, I sail several one designs that carry about twice the sail as our 16's with much lighter 3 stay rigs, granted as the wind gets to 20 kts we do start to break things...I don't see an inherent lee helm problem in the 16 as described either when sailing with just the jib in reasonable air. Best of luck all......
Quote from: mattman on January 14, 2014, 07:03:40 PM
Umm fellas, I don't understand the admonition regarding drinking, himno didn't indicate he would be inebriated, he indicated he may feel lazy.
As to the rig support, I agree with Skip, the aft positioned stays are taking the load of a backstay. Here is how I would think of this issue. Lets assume that the wind is blowing at 12kts. No one would think twice about sailing with full sail and the rig not being supported. But lets say we are thinking twice and we sail to windward with the stated idea that the leach tension helps to support the mast from the aft. So far so good, but then we decide to turn downwind. Anybody keep their main sheeted in for aft support???? Didn't think so. We sheet out the main, pole out the jib and the boats sails with full sail - no backstay, no leach tension and just the side stays to support the mast. Sure the apparent wind is now down about 8 kts and the associated loading too. The point is how many think the aft load on the rig downwind with full sail at 12kts is more than the force on the jib alone at 18 kts. I know we have some decent math guys here ;D so if you are bored and want to take a stab at this......
Lastly, I have never experienced lee helm with just the jib, especially in higher wind conditions. What I do hear about is the excessive weather helm and the need to step the mast forward of vertical, ensuring the rudder is fully forward and the virtue of the foiled rudders in that they extend forward to lessen weather helm. On my 16, 18 kts with only a jib provides plenty of weatherhelm I will guess a force of 3-4 lbs, enough that after beating for several hours you start to feel it.
In summary, I don't think we will loose our rigs because we have no backstay, I sail several one designs that carry about twice the sail as our 16's with much lighter 3 stay rigs, granted as the wind gets to 20 kts we do start to break things...I don't see an inherent lee helm problem in the 16 as described either when sailing with just the jib in reasonable air. Best of luck all......
Right Matt - I did not mention drinking ('nother subject). Yes, I was talking lazy.
Interesting discussion and info, this will all be proven/dis-proven when I wet her next year....newbie here, thinking alittle bit too much during the winter doldrums (ok....back to my wine!)
Thanks all
A pleasure hinmo, I really enjoy this site, and the few folks I have met in person have been great. I mention this in several posts, but for me, I tuck a reef in at about 12 kts steady. That is just me, I am not one to sail a cruiser with a big bubble in the main, just seems hard on the sail and you are overpowered on a beam reach. Now on a planing hull it would be a different issue. I did buy the 16 to trailer to many locations, eat snacks and enjoy a few beverages. For that I don't want to work too hard either, I get my workout on the wet-butt one designs. Take care (I am heading down for a cold one too. Cheers!) Matt.
hey matt, if that day you mentioned with gusts to 26 was on carlyle lake. i was ashore watching with awe of your sailing skill-----and no, a couple of cold ones doesnot a drunk make.
Kick... That was one of two days I had the old girl out in a breeze. A week or so prior is when I screwed up and put her over on her ear. Thanks for the accolades, but the guys on the Snipes really had the ride! Man, if I had known you were there I would have sailed over and picked you up...really need to get a radio...we need to get us locals together for a Midwinter CLR gathering (afternoon beers). I would really enjoy meeting everyone. Check your messages I have left you my number. Matt.
I took my 16 over to Carlyle late last fall for a very breezy sail with my daughter and we sailed with just the main, mostly because I was basically single-handing and did not want to push it too much. Looking at the forecast it looks like Sunday or Monday might be good days to hit the water again so I might make the trek over to Carlyle (see what the wife had planned for me first though).
Mattman and Kick, keep me in the loop, I would like to attend if I can as well
Wroundy, The lake was completely frozen last week and might still be (I look out on the lake every once in a while, but am typically more concerned with inside the harbor, where the very thick ice is indeed still thick.
Just called the Marina and asked our Office manager, she looked out and still saw ice.
Big problems up at the northern end of the lake, it is solid yet as of today.
Also if you did go out, had issues, there would be a delay of around 45 minutes to get to you if someone could at the very least.
Stay home yet Wroundy, and keep working on that honeydoo list for now ;)
The last few good weather days and agitators running shows very little progress on the ice in the harbor, so I doubt that the ice on the lake would be gone for you for Sunday or Monday.
Mac
Thanks for the update on lake ice. I was hoping the recent warmer temps might have thawed things out a bit, but I guess not. Oh well, another warm day will come along
Brackish, although the website was interesting, I was specifically referring to the statement that was mentioned concerning the compact16 having excessive lee helm under the jib alone that some people have experienced. I don't seem to recall ever dealing with excessive lee helm in any of my previous boats and was wondering if this was a unique characteristics to the 16's.