I finally remembered to take our camera to the marina. Here is a shot of the inspection port and a couple of shots inside. It had very little crud inside and smelled remarkably fresh. The top piece of plywood was just starting to delaminate, but it is not serious.
(http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x327/deisher65/100_3178.jpg) (http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/deisher65/media/100_3178.jpg.html)
(http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x327/deisher65/100_3179.jpg) (http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/deisher65/media/100_3179.jpg.html)
Here are two shots of the sliding doors in the galley and head. Simple replacement with 1/4 inch plexaglass. I like to see what is in the cupboard and think that they look better than the teal or velvet.
(http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x327/deisher65/100_3188.jpg) (http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/deisher65/media/100_3188.jpg.html)
(http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x327/deisher65/100_3187.jpg) (http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/deisher65/media/100_3187.jpg.html)
Wishing you '86 fixer uppers well.
regards charlie
nice touch. modern feel.
Seriously thinking about replacing the entire plywood tank cover with a new plexiglas one. Creeps me out not to know what's going on in that tank that I'm sleeping on top of, and not sure an inspection port will cure my anxieties.
Wes
Hey Wes:
I may very well replace the cover also, if the plywood de-lamination becomes a problem. I understand your concerns.
I think that an inspection port and the ability to clean out the tank is the minimum that should be done. I think that it was standard on later models.
Hope to be in the water as soon as I get the engine running.
regards charlie
After replacing the outlet in front of the tank to stop a leak. I filled up the tank and dumped in some clorox. I opened up the system (after replacing the pump) to circulate the clorox water. I let it sit for a a day then flushed it out. When I was wiping out the tank, all the mold lines and mold came out.
BUT I had a hard time reaching the forward parts of the tank. RECOMMEND that you place the inspection port a little further forward than mine. 3-5 inches more forward wound be great.
regards
charlie
Just purchased my 27 on Sunday. She had a wonderful over the road trip from Ct. To the Sassafras River on the upper Chesapeqke Bay.l am now inspecting all of the workings inside. Things to do.
After taking out a million screws in the forward water supply I found out that the laminated wooden cover does not come off without damage. I spoke to Gary at Hutchens and he laughed and said just put an inspection cover there. ok!!! I like your inspection cover. I may just put a larger one in .
When I bought the boat there was smell inside . I figured it was the head. No.... It's the bilge. he previous owner never cleaned it for 10 years. The fiberglass covered piece of angled wood in the bilge is rotted. I am ripping it out down to the cement in the keel. Have you ran into this at all? P U what a smell.
All of the ports have a bit of leak to them . I tracked that down to the seals. ..... any thoughts
One really Teiresias thing that puzzles me is.... how does the run off in the anchor rode locker get to the bilge ?
I tried to follow where it would go and it seems like it goes under the center of the sole. Thinking about fiberglass sing a small bulkhead and installing a hose for that runoff led directly to the bilge. Poor design I think ... thoughts
I guess I should be posting all these findings as this is my first day on the site. Please advice or give any thoughts on my findings.
Thanks
JD
JD:
Good luck with your '27.
If you do put in an inspection port in the water tank put it in a little further forward than I did. I could not easily reach all of the tank.
I know what you mean about bilges....I cleaned and painted ours.
Not sure about the chain locker drainage. Ours came with 200 ft of chain, when I pulled that out there was a bunch of crud that I vacuumed out. I know that the locker is deep. I dropped a favorite socket wrench down there out of sight when installing a new fresh water fill fitting. I lucked out retrieving it with a telescoping wand with a magnet on it.
regards charlie
Ha - me too! Dropped my favorite set of vise-grips down that hole while removing the bow eye. Never occurred to me that the chain locker didn't have a bottom. Possibly it's a portal to an alternate universe. Got my magnet and long piece of string to go fishing for it though. Wish me luck.
Wes
Happy New Years!
While fooling around on our boat this morning, I drained the water tank. Watching the water go down I stuck my hand inside to feel the plywood on the top of the tank. Surprise, there is a membrane of some sort on the top of the tank. Ours is badly split and peeling off (not where I put in the inspection port).
this is probably why our water has a strong moldy plywood smell. I tried making some sweet tea with a fair amount of rum from the onboard water, still didn't shake the taste.
Anyhow, those thinking of inspection ports, think of a flange on each side. Meanwhile I am considering cutting off the top and replacing it with something.
Any thoughts?
regards charlie
Charlie - my current plan is to replace the entire top with a thick piece of plexiglas. That seems nice and inert, plus it will allow visibility into the tank. I will still install the access port, to have a way to clean the tank. Like all my plans this is prone to change after I get too deep into it to turn back.
Currently focused on my sanding and painting. Probably won't get to the water tank until the spring.
Wes
On one of our houseboats, dad cut 6 pieces of Plexiglas and glued them together, making a replacement 30[?] gallon water tank as the metal one rusted away.
skip.
Hey Wes:
I see in a previous post on this thread that JD had tried to take the top of the water tank off. I wonder if and how he ever got it off. Could it be easier to just cut the top off leaving enough of it to attach another cover ?
If anyone tackles the tank top keep us posted.
Thanks.
regards charlie
On my former 1990 Compac 27, Afternoon Beagle, I found the water to be pretty darned disgusting when I bought her. I decided to cut a hole in the plywood cover for an inspection port, and found the bottom of the plywood to be covered with a very thin (maybe 1/32" or less) plastic-like material that was falling off into the tank and allowing the plywood cover to rot- hence the nasty water. Removing the entire wooden cover was a chore, as there were many screws and 5200 adhesive holding the darned thing down. I used a small hydraulic jack placed in the bottom of the tank on some load distributing footers to get the lid to let go from the fiberglass, then I managed to use a thin flat bar to slowly pry the lid off. Very long and labor intensive project. A new lid from the factory comes in two pieces- the original one-piece was installed prior to the topsides being installed, and a one- piece no longer can be gotten through the companionway. At this point, I fabricated a new cover from 5/8" plywood, sanded and varnished,. I cut it initially as a full size cover, then cut the front off about a foot from the forward facing end. I put a rabbet joint between the pieces and installed the cover (without any screws) over a new flexible triangular water tank of 26 gallon capacity. Since the cover was removeable, I gained some more storage room in the bow, and we had fresh and clean water thereafter!
Yikes, that's useful. At the moment I have the sliding hatch and hood completely off the boat for painting. Maybe that will allow a one piece tank cover back on. Note to self: measure soon!
Wes
Great scoop! Really appreciate your detailed response. It explains the taste and the hanging plastic in our tank.
Given that the top of the tank is important part of the boat structure.... In your opinion, would it be realistic to just remove the forward foot of the cover, install a flexible tank without removing the entire cover. Then replacing the front part with a removable hatch. Along those same thoughts, possibly cutting a 1x1ft hole in the top of the tank, rabbeting in a removable hatch, and again installing a bladder for fresh water.
Again thank you for the insight.
regards charlie
Charlie- I really never gave much credence to the plywood tank top being a structural member. The rear wall of the tank acts as a structural stiffener and the fiberglass surround that the wooden top fits into also renders additional stiffening to the bow area. I experienced no detrimental structural effects from the total removal of the rotted cover- which will be a source of odor and potential mold if not removed and replaced. My new cover was easily removeable, with no screws or adhesive holding it down, and no water sloshing around on it to cause deterioration. . I saw this as an advantage from the viewpoint of access to the bladder tank, as well as some additional storage area under the cover. That said, if you are apprehensive about possibly compromising this area of the boat, I would make a cover of 5/8" plywood, glue and screw it to the original fitment area, and install a 12" x 18" removeable rectangular hatch- readily available from any marine supply house or eBay.I would install a flexible bladder tank and have easy access to it through the large hatch. I forget who I bought the bladder from, but it was a 26 gallon affair that fit perfectly in the old tank area. I'll check around to see if I can find a receipt. Good luck with the project!
Thanks for the information it is invaluable before starting a project. You are absolutely right about the mold and smell. As soon as it warms up some, I will take the top off and then consider what to do from there.
Again thanks.
regards charlie
Boy, I'm dreading the removal of the old plywood top. They must have used a whole tube of 5200. Love the idea of the bottle jack, but I'm sure it will also need a good dose of Debond.
Peter, how did you keep the new flexible tank clean? No way to get inside to scrub it, I assume. Did you have a regimen of bleach treatment?
Wes
Wes- I have been using flexible tanks for quite a number of years, and I have found that a couple capsful of bleach at each fill-up kept them free of nasties. At the end of the season, half fill the tank with water and a bit of bleach and slosh it around, then empty the tank. Do this a couple times before storing and you should be clean. An in-line filter before end use fixtures catches most anything of a particulate nature. Be careful where you fill your water tank......I have filled up at a marina in Long Island Sound and ended up with a bunch of crud in my tank! Had to do multiple flushes to totally clean it.
Thanks for all the activity on this subject.... I am needing to do the same thing to Miss B. so have been following closely. By-the-way I have found that 3M's General Purpose Adhesive Remover works wonders in not only cleaning up 5200 when using it, it also is really good at breaking down cured silicone as well..... My $.02 worth. Keep adding posts, pictures and ideas on this!
I just re-discovered my source that I had used for 26 gallon triangular flexible water tanks (and 15 gallon poly holding tanks for 27's) at the best prices........ foreandaftmarine.com Just in case anyone is contemplating some upgrades.
Here's a 31 gal version... http://www.navimousa.com/Water%20Tanks.pdf I was thinking that two might fit. This project is definitely coming up soon. First though I have some teak for a cockpit deck and just bought another piece for drop boards.
I brought a chuckle to the office yesterday when I picked up the wood for the deck. The owner had shown me some cut offs that he said were free. A couple pieces of mahogany caught my eye. So after I paid for the lumber without thought I asked the lady (owner's daughter) if I could look through their shorts for a couple pieces of mahogany!
Wound up with a cutoff from another yacht owner's hatch project, still $24/BF.
I will take pictures when I get started.
regards charlie
Charlie - what's your source for teak? I've been planning a trip up to World Panel Products in Windsor NC (recommended by the boys at my boatyard). Open to better ideas though.
Wes
Hey Wes:
Precision Moulding & Woodworks, Inc.
908 George St.
New Bern, NC 28560
Ph# 252 638 3845
They are abut 3-4 blocks from our house. I first went to them out of curiosity. I had 17, 4/4 oak boards that I needed to plane to 3/4. They were glad to do it. I had them do three sides. It took about 45 min. Charge was $34 for an hour of shop time.
Their stock teak is 8/4 X 10-12 in X 8-10 ft. The best deal is in their cut offs from other orders. Do not hesitate to bargain.
They have just finished several hundreds of sqft of 5 X 3/4 tongue and groove purple heart flooring. I would really like to see the finished floor....
regards charlie
Have started on the water tank top replacement project. Have about two hours into it so far not counting a trip home for a saber saw. Started out with screws, bring a fresh battery. Worked on the aft end and tried to cut out some of the 5200 using a thin pry bar, a utility knife and a wood chisel. Attempted to pry the top loose. Not an easy task.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3453_zpsc8084353.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3453_zpsc8084353.jpg.html)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3456_zps78d23673.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3456_zps78d23673.jpg.html)
Considered trying the hydraulic jack to force the top off. Decided to saw around the top of the tank leaving about 2 inches of the top.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3462_zps1c712456.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3462_zps1c712456.jpg.html)
The remainder was easier to reach and work on, but there seems to be no really easy way to remove the rest of the top. Tomorrow I will try chisels (resharpened) to remove the rest of the top. Then acetone & scotch brite pads to clean up the edge.
The top was funky, moldy and stank. It also fit out the hatch with room to spare, albeit it is two inches smaller all the way around. I do not have a sea hood, and do not know if that makes the hatch smaller. I plan on making a full size pattern and try the fit again to make sure of the fit. Not sure what I am going to use for a replacement.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3458_zps610856ea.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3458_zps610856ea.jpg.html)
I am open to any suggestions.
More tomorrow.
regards charlie
Charlie - the tank itself looks pretty clean. No mold or bad smell other than the rotted cover? Any cracks/leaks in the tank?
For replacement, I'm thinking something non-wood, impervious to water. Plexiglas? What about StarBoard? I looked at the specs and it says "resistant" to water, but there's no info on using it in contact with water (esp. potable water).
I'm very interested - keep us posted!
Wes
I replaced the tank lid on my Orion27 with marine plywood with a layer of glass cloth and resin on the bottom to provide waterproofing. Never had a problem with it. On the CP27, as mentioned earlier, I put in a flexible tank with a removeable varnished plywood cover. Worked great.
Thank you Wes and Peterg for your suggestions.
Removed the remainder of the top and the rest of the 5200. Wes, I think your estimate of how much 5200 Hutchins used was wrong, they used at least a tube and a half. Might still be a little loopy from the solvent that I used to clean off the last of it.
There were some small cracks at the forward edge of the tank.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3466_zps20379c37.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3466_zps20379c37.jpg.html)
The top was 1 inch cabinet grade plywood. It is a trapezoid with bases of 6 and 47 inches and an altitude of 43 inches. I just ordered a 48 x 54 x 3/4 sheet of StarBoard from West Marine. It should be here Friday. It was right at $400. The StarBoard saves me the time of having to fiberglass a piece of plywood. I was leery of using Plexiglas because of its brittleness. I could see cracking the edges when screwing it down.
Considered just putting on a removable cover and using bladders. It is a good recommendation and a real workable solution. However I really like the 50 gallons of fresh water, and the set up is good for fill and venting so a new top it is.
Speaking of venting, when pumping the tank dry from about 1/3 full, there was suction on the inspection port when I removed it. Will check to see if some critter has plugged up the vent before I reassemble.
I noticed that in several places there was no 5200 around the screws on the lip of the tank. This was particularly evident on the forward edge of the top. The plywood on the forward edge was damp and deteriorated. Elsewhere I think that tank probably leaked a little into the bilge when the fresh water was against the seam. The membrane under the top was not originally one piece adding to the deterioration.
When I install the new top I will ensure that the old screw holes are covered with 5200, and that I use enough to have some squeeze out inside the tank.
Made a pattern to test the dimensions and to see if it would fit through the hatch. The dimensions were good but it did not fit through the hatch. I was able to flex the one inch styrofoam insulation that I used enough to get it through the hatch. You would never be able to do that with anything over 1/2 inch plywood. Even that would be tough. I am hoping that the starboard flexes just a little. If not I will probably look at putting a half lap joint on the forward end of the top and installing it in two pieces.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3471_zps2a21b03e.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3471_zps2a21b03e.jpg.html)
The pattern fit well. I will use a 1/4 or 1/2 round over on the bottom edge of the top.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3473_zps9512adcc.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3473_zps9512adcc.jpg.html)
Have about 3.5-4.0 hours into the job now.
To install the new top. After getting a good fit, Should I use fast dry 5200, set the top and let it sit for a day or so before screwing it down? Or screw the top down right away?
Again thanks for your suggestions. (I really hope that there is some flex in the StarBoard (+;!!!
regards charlie
Personally I would use 4200, since this is not a structural joint and you mainly need sealing, not super powerful adhesion. Some poor fool will curse your name 20 years from now if you use 5200.
This might be one of those rare situations where silicone caulk makes sense. Easier to remove in future, safe for potable water, and it's an invisible area that will never need to be painted. Just a thought. I'm extremely cautious about silicone normally but this could be an exception.
On balance, I vote for 4200.
Wes
I had to mess with something similar, oddly installed in a macgregor 26. What a job...... anyway, I am watching with great regard to the job, your doing great.
I vote 4200 for what it is worth. I try to avoid silicone just due to its very nature. And agree with Wes, 5200 is a real job for the next guy.
4200 should do wonderfully.
I kinda wish I was there to see all of your work in person...... Please keep the pictures coming, I find it very interesting.
Mac
Again thanks for the scoop. 4200 it is.
Hope to have it wrapped up by Sunday. Sure hope that there is some flex in StarBoard.
More to post later.
regards charlie
Almost done! First time that I have ever worked with StarBoard, it is very dense so cut out the top on the back of the pick up using a skill saw and a jig. It machines pretty much like wood. Router, table saw and skill saw all worked to shape it.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3474_zpseba782b1.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3474_zpseba782b1.jpg.html)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3475_zpsdd6cbfc9.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3475_zpsdd6cbfc9.jpg.html)
The cover is to big to fit through the hatch so I cut the top off and made replacement piece to match with a 3/8 inch lap joint made with a router.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3480_zpsb3326d26.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3480_zpsb3326d26.jpg.html)
When placed on the tank, the fit was very poor. It was apparent that the cover needed modified so scribed a 5 inch piece to match up the aft edge of the tank. You can see the scribed line in this picture. Notice the large gap.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3495_zpsf485360a.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3495_zpsf485360a.jpg.html)
This piece was also attached with a 3/8 inch lap joint. When test fitted it needed support so there is a screw block in the middle attached to both pieces for support.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3501_zpsd1d951c2.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3501_zpsd1d951c2.jpg.html)
Screwed and calked in with 3M 4200. (1.5 tubes)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag383/deisher6/100_3503_zps2145c4ac.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/deisher6/media/100_3503_zps2145c4ac.jpg.html)
Will go back tomorrow to clean up the joints with a blade and solvent.
Recommended to do differently:
1) Make a pattern out of 1/2 inch stock of plywood, chip-board, or particleboard. The styrofoam pattern that was used flexed enough to show a good fit. 3/4 inch StarBoard does not flex. The new top's diagonals were within 5mm of each others length, so I think that the tank is not a regular trapezoid. I would use an exact rigid pattern to cut the new top.
2) Starboard is expensive, glassed plywood would work as well. Am always in a big hurry to get projects done and did not want to take the time. The joint in the plywood could be glassed together once inside the cabin..
Other thoughts:
1) Do not know why there were so many screws in the original. The 5200 was enough to hold the top in place. So used fewer screws in the new top.
2) Just to check 'stuck' my hand against the inside joint to insure that there was some squeeze out. There was, will check the entire seam tomorrow when it is dry.
3) Considered epoxying the three parts of the new top together when inside the cabin. Tested a lap joint with scrap StarBoard The epoxy was pretty tough, but was able to break it. So went with a more flexible joint using 4200. You are supposed to singe the edges of the StarBoard before joining them with epoxy.
4) Checked the vent, was not working well. Straightened out a kink in the hose and it works OK.
5) Good to be done. Pedestal and steering are next. Hope that this helps.
Great looking job!! Having done this on the old Beagle 2, I can appreciate the labor of love that you went through- enjoy digging into the pedestal!!
Hope that this is the last post on this thread.
To test the installation filled the tank from the deck fill. I wanted to fill it up until water came out the vent. That was not going to happen, the tank leaked at the aft seam. There is a foot or two of head if filled up so to the vent. Really a bunch of pressure if you think abut it. I drained it down about 4 inches and went sailing yesterday, placing a towel under the cushions over the aft seam. It was a pretty lively day and it leaked with the boat heeling. Not to much but the towel was damp.
Today opened up the seam with a dremel tool and re-caulked with 5200.
Should have run a piece of StarBoard all the way across the aft seam to support the seam instead of just 6 inches in the center. I would have also used 5200, it seems stickier and tougher when dried.
The water is sweet without smell (=; 50 gallons of water is god ballast on a brisk day.
regards charlie
2 feet of water head = 4.62 psi. The 5200 should do the trick.
TG