Hi everyone and thanks for letting join your forum.
I have a question for yall. I'm trying to decide between 3 boats. Com-Pac 23/3 Years 1990-2000.......?, Seaward 24, and or Pacific Seacraft Dana 24. I understand the expense of the Dana but, more interested in seaworthyness, sailability, and comfort. I live on the Texas Gulf Coast and would want to sail the bays and run the gulf coast line border to border. Would also like to trailer to Florida and keys and then Bahama. California coast Sea of Cortez to Alaska. Have not really seen some solid arguements to compair as to which would be the best all around, best of all worlds, and as always safety comes first. There will be my wife and I sailing alone. I am partial to the CP 23 as this is why I joined your forum. I figured the CP 23 sailors would be biting at the bit to brag on there yachts. But, really looking for the truth to help me over the hump. Thanks everyone for their time and thoughts.
Hey D:
Welcome to Land of Compac-o-nauts!
Hmmm...I think the 3 boats you mentioned are in different classes. Or should I say the CP 23 and Seaward 24 are similair while the Dana is a true bluewater boat...or can be as noted here:
http://www.karenandjimsexcellentadventure.blogspot.com/
Between the CP 23 and the Seaward I'd choose the Compac but I admit to being a bit biased about my choice: I own a 1985 23/2 and absolutely love her. I think if I were sailing the Sea of Cortez and up to Alaska, I'd want the Dana or a Flicka but others have sailed these routes in a CP 23 and did quite well.
Just my opinion...I'll shut up now and let others with more experience speak. Thanks again for joining!
Bob23
I don't own a 23, chose a Sun Cat 17 instead, but have a few comments to offer.
Checked out the detailed specs and commentary on all three boats under consideration in my newly acquired "The Sailor's Book of Small Cruising Sailboats" by Steve Henkel. I coupled this information with ownership of several sailboats up to 35' and thousands of cruising miles under my keels including two trips to the Bahamas.
Based on your stated intended use of the boat, my recommendation would be the Seaward 24 with keel/centerboard and outboard. If it is the Seward 24(25) with shoal draft fixed keel and outboard/inboard it still wins unless you don't like the idea of an inboard. Then the choice would be the Com-Pac 23.
My recommendation is based on the significant importance of shoal draft, sailing ability (keel/centerboard), interior accommodations, headroom, preference for an outboard, and ease of trailering.
Hope this provide some food for thought.
capt_nemo
Sorry I can't help with your choice of boat. Nice choice to have though. With that list how could you really go wrong?
I would point out that
Quote from: D78612 on September 03, 2013, 06:13:45 PM
California coast Sea of Cortez to Alaska.
would be against the prevailing winds and likely a very rough ride. I would encourage you to research this well. Most people choose to do this in the other direction, north to south.
Or, explore the Sea Of Cortez then trailer the boat to the Puget Sound and continue from there. It's not uncommon to see sailboats and power cruisers moving north or south on the I5 freeway. Mostly they migrate north in spring and return south in fall though there's always the occasional nonconformist.
Welcome to the forum. Hope you enjoy your stay and our very own nonconformists. :)
mel
Boy, how easy is that decision. ;) You've thrown those out there and while the Dana comparison is apples to oranges at about five times the cost used in your model time frame, you must be able to afford it if it is under consideration. If I could afford it, and, in addition could afford the tow vehicle that can handle a 10-11K tow, I would have the Dana in a flash. Blue water boat with unmatched build quality that has 6'1" headroom and a separate enclosed head, both your back and wife will thank you and you will have met that "safety comes first" quote. And having had both, I would prefer an inboard for extended cruising. You will have to live with the fact that at some ramps in your tow too areas, you may not be able to launch a 3'10" draft boat and will have to arrange for a lift in at a marina.
Yes, draft is an issue, but 3'10" is still not a lot, I sailed a Columbia 8.7 with a 5'5" draft all over the upper Gulf Coast (but not Texas). Certainly there were places I couldn't go, but plenty of places I could.
Certainly, the other choices will get the job done on the Gulf and in Florida, I can't speak for the West Coast. I think I would charter that far away rather than haul unless you plan to spend months at a time.
By the way there are CP23's available for charter around Key Largo if you want to try out the boat in that area. Do a search, I think they are associated with the rent of a cottage.
No brainer.
For saltwater [blue water] I'd go with the Pacific Seacraft Dana 24.
We have a couple who sailed their Dana 24 from England to Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin.
skip.
Well I thank you all for your opinions. I guess we'll see what the Lord chooses for me. Thanks again. ;)
Quote from: D78612 on September 03, 2013, 06:13:45 PM
Have not really seen some solid arguements to compare as to which would be the best all around, best of all worlds, and as always safety comes first.
I'm not sure such an argument could be made for the title of best all around.
I'm thinking the Dana would be the safest most accommodating boat for travels over thousands of miles in the Pacific, by far! They are in another league compared to coastal/bay designed CP23 and S24's. Dana's are built like a tank compared to Com-pacs, and that's really saying something as Com-pacs are really tough too.
But can you really tow the Dana around the country? I believe they are wide enough, something like an inch greater, to be considered a wide-load, requiring permits and road restrictions, as well as time of operation issues (holidays, weekends, nights)--will be different for each state. Doable every once in a while, but I'm thinking the Dana would almost never leave the water-just for maintenance/paint at a marina. I might be incorrect about this; check into it further if you are planning to trailer it as that could be a huge problem.
Check out this article and comments:
http://www.ventspleen.com/?p=514
I would feel comfortable using the CP23 on the Gulf of Mexico, but on a long trip out of sight of land in the Pacific? I'm personally not that brave, the north Pacific from what I've read can be unforgiving and perhaps needs some extra safety margin than what Com-pac's possess. Not to say it can't be done, or that others haven't done so...just being conservative.
I'm thinking your answer is buy what you want to sail in TX, and if you choose the Dana, just rent a sailboat when you take trips. Trailering the Dana is going to a be a royal pain in the transom.
Me, I want a Flicka...
Quote from: D78612 on September 03, 2013, 06:13:45 PM
Hi everyone and thanks for letting join your forum.
I have a question for yall. I'm trying to decide between 3 boats. Com-Pac 23/3 Years 1990-2000.......?, Seaward 24, and or Pacific Seacraft Dana 24. I understand the expense of the Dana but, more interested in seaworthyness, sailability, and comfort. I live on the Texas Gulf Coast and would want to sail the bays and run the gulf coast line border to border. Would also like to trailer to Florida and keys and then Bahama. California coast Sea of Cortez to Alaska. Have not really seen some solid arguements to compair as to which would be the best all around, best of all worlds, and as always safety comes first. There will be my wife and I sailing alone. I am partial to the CP 23 as this is why I joined your forum. I figured the CP 23 sailors would be biting at the bit to brag on there yachts. But, really looking for the truth to help me over the hump. Thanks everyone for their time and thoughts.
Trailer to Bahamas? Not sure I get that. :)
Also not sure if I follow the "California coast Sea of Cortez to Alaska." If you mean trailer to Sea of Cortez and sail to Alaska, then that is something to do in a Dana. If you mean trailer up and down the west coast and put in at various places from Sea of Cortez to Alaska, then the CP23 and S24 make sense as well. If so, with all of your plans to trailer, the Dana starts looking to make a bit less sense due to her beam and the wide load issues. But maybe less beamy but very seaworthy boats would still be a good choice, like Bristol or Cape Dory, both heavy and very seaworthy and with good headroom and accomodations.
For trailering and coastal hopping the CP23 is a very good choice. If you are doing more serious coastal cruising, even 2-3 day passages in the far northwest (or far northeast), then you might want to consider a more seaworthy boat.
BTW- The US northeast to Bahamas or the Caribbean are both to windward and plenty of people do that. California sailor tend not to be much of sailors and motor a lot including trips up the coast from SD or LA to SF. Along the rocky coast there is a shortage of good harbors and perhaps few or none between SD and SF that allow moorings or anchorage, just slips jam packed with boats (that mostly just sit there). Having lived part time in Silicon Valley for four years and looked into sailing options I would not pick the west coast below Washington as a sailing destination. Sailing (or motoring) from one crowded place to another crowded place is not my idea of good sailing. So if you mean trailer to Sea of Cortez and then trailier to places north, I'd either skip the entire state of California, or maybe put in at a few places from San Diego to Santa Barbara (realizing that the transient slip will cost you dearly) and maybe San Francisco Bay to see the congestion there. North SF Bay is less congested, just don't mind the oil refineries. My choice would be to skip the whole state.
Curtis
Well Hmmm ? The idea was to trailer to east coast/Florida and sail to Bahamas and maybe further down and/or trailer to Ca. , Or. , and/or Washington/B.C. , Alaska and sail up and down coast and maybe get down towards the Sea of Cortez. What are the ideas of the Flicka comparison with P.C. 23 ? I understand that sometimes the Flicka is prone to seasickness. Anyway what are your thoughts? Thanks again... Dave
you may also want to check out the Bayfield 23/25s
http://bayfield23.tripod.com/ (http://bayfield23.tripod.com/)
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5911 (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5911)
Quote from: D78612 on September 09, 2013, 09:56:48 AM
Well Hmmm ? The idea was to trailer to east coast/Florida and sail to Bahamas and maybe further down and/or trailer to Ca. , Or. , and/or Washington/B.C. , Alaska and sail up and down coast and maybe get down towards the Sea of Cortez. What are the ideas of the Flicka comparison with P.C. 23 ? I understand that sometimes the Flicka is prone to seasickness. Anyway what are your thoughts? Thanks again... Dave
Dave,
Flicka vs CP23. Hmm.
Sort of like small military tank vs small SUV. Flicka is 20 ft LOD (plus 4' bowsprit) and 6,000 lbs with standing headroom, drafts 3'3". CP23 is 23 ft LOD (plus 1' bowsprit) and 3,000 lbs with sitting headroom, drafts 2'3".
Flicka is a very small blue water boat built rock solid, which is part of the reason it weighs so much. CP23 is a small light coastal cruiser at best, built solidly but not adequately for blue water, plus its capsize number disqualifies it. CP23 darfts a foot less so is a great gunkholer. You might want to check reviews of boat at Practical Sailor http://www.practical-sailor.com/topics/sailboat_reviews.html (http://www.practical-sailor.com/topics/sailboat_reviews.html)
A used FLicka, if you can find one, will be very expensive.
Curtis
Dave,
I just noticed the CP23 review by Practical Sailor is old enough that it is not available in digital form from their web site. Maybe a library has a paper copy or some form of image archive available.
BTW if you are trailering you have to consider weight and tow vehicle capacity. 5,000 is a magic number. That is the limit of a class 3 hitch and the rated towing capacity of all but the largest SUV and puts you in the heavy duty pickup territory. You have to also consider the weight of the trailer (figure 1,200-1,500 for a tandem trailer with surge brakes) plus weight of gear on board the boat. Unless your vehicle can tow well over 5,000 lbs you'll have to buy a new tow vehicle to tow a Flicka or Dana or anything that weighs much over 3,000 lbs. And then there is the cost of gas. (my F250 gets 14-15 MPG highway on a good day, usually less, 11-12 MPG in town, but tows a CP23 like it isn't there).
Also take a look at "Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere" by John Vigor. Most are older and larger but will give you some good ideas as to what to look for.
Curtis
Dave,
Sorry to post three times.
Boat US has a review. http://www.boatus.com/boatreviews/sail/ComPac23.asp (http://www.boatus.com/boatreviews/sail/ComPac23.asp)
Not as detailed as the Practical Sailor review a while back but hits some of the same points. More solidly constructed than most boats of this sides, but still with limits. Bulkhead tabbed to hull could be better. Cabin top compression under the mast can be a problem (with older CP23 there is plywood under there that can rot). Newer CP23 have foiled rudder rather than the aluminum plate. Replace the plate rudder if you get one. Add the bowsprit if you don't get one. I moved the sheeting point forward and bought new headsails cut for that. All these improve weather helm and improve windward sailing.
It would be kinda hard to move the chainplates and only worth it to move the shrouds inward if you really wanted a better sheeting angle. Easier to add a longer bowsprit. A traveller would be nice. A boom vang is needed but not expensive. Practical Sailor suggested glassing the bulkheads all the way and replacing the 5/32 standing rigging with 3/16 would be a good idea if pushing the boat hard, like serious coastal cruising. Not recommended for blue water at all.
IMHO the boom vang, a good solid downhaul, and a second reef is a necessity if coastal cruising. A third reef would be nice but with the batten placement on the original mainsail this isn't practical. Small jibs are also necessary in case you get into a strong blow (I have a 110 and 60). The jib will also flog less if you move the sheeting point forward (ie: mount another track) and you can keep the original track for a genoa or for use with a spinnaker (either/both or some other light air sail on my wish list for a long time).
Curtis
Hi Dave,
Small Craft Advisor reviewed the C23 in 2011 . This is a six page review, so pretty detailed. The review was in issue No. 71 and is available as an instant digital download from their website (www.smallcraftadvisor.com).
Cheers, and I wish you well in your sailing adventures, whatever you finally decide on.
Pete H
I love my 23 but for me the next step up would indeed be a Flicka. I'd imagine they might be prone to hobby horsing but maybe not, being full keeled. There's one on the hard near me in a marina...neglected...hasn't seen water in years...but not for sale. Maybe that's a good thing because I might snatch it up and then divorce would likely follow. Or I might be found murdered!
Better keep the 23!
I think if trailering was a high priority, the 23 would be my choice. One boat can't do it all...you may need 2!
Bob23
I've trailered a Flicka on a 1600 mile trip, then crossed the Gulf Stream to Bahamas and sailed through the Abacos. Did the same with a 23 Compac Pilot House. Bottom line...if you are going to trailer a lot....go compac. If you are going to coastal cruise...go Compac. If you are going offshore for more than a good weather forcast...go Flicka, but carefully!! The Dana IS a great boat....but ya ain't going to like trailering it...even with a big truck. At 8000lb plus trailer....thats a lot of weight to both get going and stop!!!
Flicka story http://www.flicka20.com/Portals/30/ff/ff_12_01.pdf Note: the only boat I ever got seasick on!
Compac 23 cruise story http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,3447.0.html
Note...I would not have wanted to be caught in the same seas with the 23 as I experienced with the Flicka.
having said that...with good weather planning and care, it was not a problem. The 23 trailered far easier and
the shallow draft was great for the Florida Keys and Abacos!!
It kinda looks like the smart thing is to start looking for CP23. Can't seem to find a small cutter that looks as good as the Dana though and can't really find any other boats that looks and keeps the traditional look like the cp23. I think the lines of the cp23 just look really nice. I know the bayfield and the seaward but, they just don't appeal like the cp23. Too bad there wasn't an option to turn the cp23 into a cutter. Should I be looking for the 1990's and up cp23s' ?
To be a true cutter the mast would need to be moved aft. But that might make weather helm worse. A few people have added an inner stay making their CP23 technically a double headsail sloop. Since the CP23 mast may already be a bit too far aft, adding an inner stay might make it more of a cutter. The two headsails when both set would move the sail center of effort forward which would help weather helm. Generally cutter headsails are each smaller than what you'd normally fly on a sloop. A small jib with cabin top sheeting might do the trick and would be real handy if the wind unexpectedly blows hard (as in gale).
When I had my 110 and 60 jibs cut by North Sail, we discussed using a storm sail on a removable inner stay. The storm sail would be wire luff and use a fixed sheeting point on the cabintop. I would not want a fixed inner stay because short tacking is hard on a cutter. A removable stay with an inner jib would allow short tacking with the staysail and use of both headsails when on long tacks where the extra sail area would come in handy.
If you add an inner stay rigging below deck should go forward to the stem. The stay should not just be attached to the deck. At least wire it to a forward bulkhead and then glass the bulkhead in more securely.
A simpler alternative would be a genoa or drifter for light air but whatever you do, don't rely on a genoa as your only headsail if coastal cruising.
Curtis
Would any yall concider the Gulf Stream; Florida to Bahamas and/or the Gulf of Mexico really blue water ? How would you characterise them ?
i was down there sailing a starwind 19 back in 2010. if the winds aren't right, which they weren't for me, it can be extremely hazardous.
my 1st attempt, i encountered 10-12' swells with one rolling over every so often.
i have to add that i was there in the winter when the prevailing winds are from the north and of course the gulf stream runs north, so it can get quite rough out there.
check out this site...http://www.microcruising.com/lc1.htm (http://www.microcruising.com/lc1.htm)
carl
D78612,
I've taken sailboats and trawlers to the Bahamas, sailed to the Dry Tortugas, and sailed in the Gulf of Mexico, and I would definitely consider all those passages BLUE WATER!
How far off the coastal U.S do you think you have to be to consider it Blue Water?
Thorough preparation of your vessel and yourself for these passages is just as important as when preparing to cross an ocean. If you treat it otherwise, you do so at your peril! Not trying to scare you, just sharing many years of experience with thousands of cruising miles under my keels.
The most important factor in your safety and the safety of your vessel is as always, anywhere, the WEATHER. Use it, don't fight it. To cross the Gulf Stream to the Bahamas (or return) with any northerly component in the wind is foolhardy and just plain stupid. Such a wind against the northerly flow of the Stream creates nightmarish conditions within the short distance separating Florida from a Bahama landfall. Most seasoned cruisers DO NOT HAVE A TIGHT TIMETABLE and wait for what we call a good "WEATHER WINDOW".
Fair winds, and sail SAFELY!
capt_nemo
As far as "blue water" is concerned...... I guess it depends on ones perspective. I guess in my own eyes I would consider anything over 24 hrs. outside of land "blue water". I understand the current and wind conditions concerning safe passage to the Bahamas across the gulf stream and I believe it is paramount to wait for the "weather window" so taking all that into consideration the trip across for all practical purposes is a day sail. A sail from Galveston to Cancun straight across the gulf I would say is about 5-6 days. This I would call "blue water". Would I try it in a CP 23 ? I don't know. I know there is a race from Galveston to Vera Cruise every year. I would also call this "blue water". Would I try it in a CP 23 ? I don't know. I would also call sailing to Bermuda from the east coast "blue water". Would I try this in a CP 23 ? Probably not. How about a sail to Catalina Island in a CP 23. Yep.... I believe I would. So, I believe there are varables that have to be taken into account along with perspectives..... weather, experience, buddy boats, absense of pride and a handful of guts and along with Lin and Larry Parady's books of practice of course. ;)
Not having sailed there ...
Florida to the Bahamas is a 60 mile trip. It is a day trip but one that requires a careful eye on the weather before starting out and a boat and crew that is prepared for foul weather just in case. It is therefore definitely not blue water sailing. You could argue that due to the Gulf Stream it is not light coastal cruising either, even though it can be done in a day.
The difficulty is the set of the current and its affect on navigation and also the possibility of wind against current and the steep waves that can result.
That said, people have reported doing it in a CP23 and I don't know of any CP23 lost attempting it.
You'd want to save that sail for well after you are thoroughly familiar with the boat and very confident that you are up for it. Its not a good shakedown sail.
Curtis
I've been trying to find out what the head room is in the CP 23. Do any of you have the height as I have not purchased one yet? Thanks, Dave
D78612,
"The Sailor's Book of Small Cruising Sailboats" by Steve Henkel says that the headroom is 4' 4".
Hope this helps.
capt_nemo