I bought a 1987 Com-pac 16 two weeks ago and was out for the third time today. I took 8 lessons and had no problems with the school's boat - the J22.
The weather in Maine has been calm the last couple of weeks 5-15 MPH winds.
I have yet to be able to tack a close reach of any degree. The boat just turns around to the leeward no mater if I am trying to do a port or a starboard tack. I tried for three hours today. The only way I could get on a close reach was to let out the sails into a total luff. Of course, then the boat when nowhere.
I do OK on a broad or a beam reach but I have to motor back to the launch. I don't know whether it is my inexperience, the boat, the calm winds or all of them.. I do know that I might as well go back to a motor boat because I'm motoring half the time anyway.
Fred
Sometimes I fall off just a bit before a tack to gain speed.
Speed and momentum are your friend and will help carry you all the way through a tack.
Also, it is better to tack from a close hauled point of sail than a close reach ;)
I know my 19 won't come about with out the jib up. Make sure both sails are set properly. Also, sometimes I will hold the jib sheet a bit and backwind the jib...helps push the nose around.
New sails and a foiled rudder would be the 1st things to upgrade. That should help too.
Or you could just gybe through 270 degrees ;D
Good luck.
Hey Fred:
If you seem to have an excessive amount of weather helm...you have to keep a healthy pull on the tiller, and if you let the tiller go it rounds up. quickly..you may want to rake your mast forward a degree or two. There are some other posts on this blog about mast rake. You might look at your sail shape and move the pocket of the main forward and sheet the jibs that the sheet bisects the angle that the sail forms at the clew. Some folks run the jib sheets inside the stays.
Other than that Billy is right on with sails and rudder.
I was sailing last Sunday without a motor, dropped and stowed the jib while approaching the ramp on a close reach. There was a boater stuck in an adjacent ramp with his stern well past the finger pier that I was heading for. I had to tack around and make a second run...I made it but was wishing that I had not stowed the jib. You can sail a C16 with main only just not to close to the wind.
Fred:
What shape are your sails in? On my 1985 23, I occasionally had problems coming about in higher winds. Without the jib it was impossible. Although my sails were original, I thought they were in good shape. It wasn't until I visited the John Eggers loft here in NJ that I got a professional opinion about my sails: "these haven't been good in a long time!"
With the new sails, I had no problem tacking through and I could even do it under main alone. I was now able to sail closer to the wind, faster and with less weather helm. I'd advise having someone who knows sails take a look at yours.
Don't go back to motorboating...your 16 is a fine boat and with a little tweeking, she'll come into her own.
Bob23
Need more info. Something is not right here. ??? When you say you can't sail on a close reach and the boat wants to turn to leeward are you saying despite pushing the tiller to leeward(to turn into the wind)the boat refuses to turn to windward? If so, something is causing serious lee helm which is not a good thing. One simple possible cause could be the rudder not in a fully down position. Over trimming the sails is another possibility. Over steering(too much rudder) will cause rudder stall and loss of both speed and steering. Other than that if the sail center of effort is too far forward the bow will be pushed to leeward causing the lee helm. Make sure the main outhaul is tight enough to properly flatten it. Raking the mast aft could help as well.
Craig
You may have struck on something. Yes the boat refuses to go windward. I believe the rudder is down. I thought of that. But how can I know for sure if it is slightly up?
I've tried various sail trims. The only thing that is effective is to allow the jib out so much that it luffs in the wind so the boat stops. Then it will face 45 degees into the wind.
The answer may be that I over rudder so the rudder becomes ineffective. I push the tiller as far as it will go because I am trying not turn. If I pump the tiller it helps for a few seconds. But eventually I turn leeward.
FROM RUDDER THEORY:
Stall occurs when the water on the backside and trailing edge fails to flow smoothly. When the rudders angle of attack is too high or the velocity is to low for the loading on the rudder. (Loading = Resistance to turning) the flow roils turbulently and the lift working force of the rudder is interrupted. The hull fails to continue turning. To reestablish the lift force. One must increase the velocity (often not possible) or reduce the rudder's angle of attack (usually necessary). This however dramatically increases the turning circle. Hopefully nothing is in your way.
Also, I have never adjusted the outhaul. My book and instructor never said a word about it. How do I adjust the outhaul?
Also how do you RAKE THE HELM?
FROM SAIL NET
"If the mast is raked too far aft, the boat will have excessive weather helm. If it is raked too far forward, the boat will have lee helm. Excess weather helm is detrimental to boat speed and pointing ability. Lee Helm is dangerous. In my opinion, for good performance the rake of the mast should be adjusted so that the boat has light weather helm in moderate winds."
Thanks Craig. I don't understand it all but your answer does sound like the right one. All those piano (I mean sailing) for nothing ;)
Fred
Out haul is easy. There is a line attached to the clew(grommet on aft corner of mainsail) that controls the foot tension. Try tightening it as much as you can for starters. Some boats run the clew line through a block on the boom forward to cleat on the side of the boom. Others simply run the line to an eye at the end of the boom and are tied off there. The rule is: tighter foot- flatter sail. Older sails generally need higher luff and foot tension to help compensate for stretch. Also if your sail has a leach line make sure it is not too tight. The leach of the sail should not"hook" to windward. Experiment an see what works. Re the rudder just make sure it is pushed as far down as it will go and is tightened securely or pinned (a golf tee will hold it in place but still allow the rudder to kick up if you ground). Have fun! You will get it together. We have all gone through these "teething" periods! ;D
He book says stand the mast up right. O.K. may be a little forward. But it's not a performance hull line so don't expect a lot of results.
Put some stick-on tell tails high-middle-and low, a foot off the mast and a foot off the leech of the sail and on both the head sail and the main sail.
When your sailing and most of these tell tails are straight back and not up or down, your making the most lift [power] from the sails.
It is interesting to note that hauling the head sail in and out will effect the flow of air over both sails and therefore you will be able to see the 'work' the sail is doing.
Also by hauling the main in and out will vary the tell tails on the head sail. It's fun to dink around with the sheets.
Let the main out till she 'wrinkles vertically' at the mast and then pull the sail back in till the wrinkle goes away.
The halyards have pulled the sail all the way up to the top O mast. The down haul has pulled the sail down tightly. And the out haul has pulled the main back snuggly.
The sheet controlling the head sail can be slid forward or astern and this line, tied at the clue, should be pointing toward the center of that sail. Not pointing high and not pointing off center.
These will get you started. As far as pointing goes, most sailors crab and try to point too far into the wind. The boat can only do what it can do.
A Com-Pac is not a 12 meter racing yacht. It's more a barge. Want to know if your steering a straight line? Just look~at your wake.
skip.
Fred:
Can you post some photos here for us to view? Your dilema is unusual so maybe looking at some pictures would help clear up this mystery.
I'm guessing there is a multitude of problems here on of which may be over steering or as you put it "over ruddering".
I maintain my original thought that your sails are shot and maybe not even the right ones for the boat!
Bob23
Fred,
Don't worry, you will find the solution and really enjoy sailing the 16.
Thoughts: What was a close reach on the J22 is likely close hauled for the 16.
Sailing the 16 with 7 to 15mph wind will be fine once you are set up.
You might measure your sails and compare to the specs on this sight. If they are original, they are 26 years old
The 16 will tack ok with 2mph of head way. Tend the jib let the main self tack. As mentioned above, don't be too quick to shift the jib sheets. If you have any GPS that will give you boat speed and direction use it to get your speed up before the tack.
What are your currents? If you are fighting a significant current, your sails could be full but reduced headway.
Follow the advice about the rudder blade, really critical to keep the blade all the way down. Foiled blade about $300.
Who can sail with bad sails? New main and jib for the 16, $700 to $1000 with a cover for the main.
Where is the weight in your boat? How heavy is the motor? Is the motor tilted out of the water while under sail? Any significant weight foreward? Are you and crew, if any, sitting foreward toward th cabin? I find the 16 a little sensitive to weight positioning. Too much weight toward the stern is not good.
About that power boating...for the price of new sails and foiled rudder you could fuel 250hp for a couple outings and have a mechanic say a few uh-huhs with the cowl off!
Free air and quiet boating is a good way to go.
Tom
At this point I don't dare to put the boat in the water, since lee helm is dangerous. Can I put up the sails in my driveway for pictures or would that hurt the sails?
I'm thinking that I need to have someone look at the boat and me sailing it to determine the problem. However, I wouldn't know who around here would have that expertise. I could also contact the previous owner to see if they would be willing to take the boat back. But I don't know if the boat is the problem. I am not inclined to buy sails or a new rudder at this point. Good money after bad.
I appreciate the help you all have given me.
Fred
Your boat is NOT dangerous!! While lee helm is not a good thing,yours can be easily corrected. Don't worry about new sails! Yours are probably fine for now. Compac 16s are probably one of the safest most forgiving boats around! If you really want to sail getting rid of the boat would be a big mistake. Try what has been suggested and all will be well. There is nothing wrong with your boat that some simple adjustments can't correct. Learning to sail is a process of trial and error! Putting up the sails in the driveway is a good idea. You can check the rudder then too. By the way you do NOT need a new rudder! The stock blade works just fine as hundreds of owners will attest.
The CP 16 doesn't point as high as a J22, for sure. Still, my '90, even with an original main, does an adequate job tacking, unless the wind is really light. Then, it is hard sometimes to bring the boat about. As others have said, the boat needs a bit of speed. It's counter intuitive, but I sometimes tack from a beam reach, simply because I can gain more momentum in light air than close hauled. With a bit more speed, the boats inertia because of its weight will often carry it around through the tack, even though it has further to go to complete it. As others have mentioned, work the jib and don't pull it across too quickly. Let the main self tack.
Still, with all of this, I once in a while get in a bind and can't tack out of a tight situation...yesterday close to the ramp and docks, the wind was too light to gain momentum for tacking in a tight space, so I simply fired up the motor for a minute to get the momentum I needed to get away.
As to danger, this is not such a boat, which is one reason I love to sail it. Yesterday, in high winds, we clipped by many other boats returning to the marina. They were motoring with sails down and we, on a broad reach with both sails still up, had a fine romp into the ramp area before having to drop sails and motor the final 30 yards. Such a fun boat!
Jett
Fred,
Where are you located? Maybe someone on the board with more experience could meet up with you for a sail and check things out. Although any experienced sailor would be able to figure things out too. You could try calling your sailing instructor and see if he/she would come out with your for a couple hours on your boat for $50. Or check meetup.com to see if there is a sailing group in your area.
Nate
Thanks for all the helpful replies.
I just spoke with the previous owner. She is an absolutely honest and helpful older woman that has sailed the boat many years. She has never had the problem I experience. This convinces me that there is nothing wrong with the boat or the sails.
So it makes sense that the problem is my technique. I feel much better about this as, unlike new parts, skills can be learned and don't cost much. Together over the phone we figured, as Craig said, that when I notice the boat start to turn, I push the tiller all the way to leeward. This might be the problem because the rudder is so close to the helm that it becomes ineffective. It acts like there is no rudder. With out a rudder the wind will push the jib leeward, thus the boat leeward.
Also the light winds may be a factor.
Also, I may not place the jib in a ideal position for light winds. Once I am positioned in a close reach, I pull in the jib as I was taught. This may create a more solid surface for the wind blow, thus turn the "rudderless" boat to leeward.
My friend who as not yet seen the boat, suggests that the mast needs to be tilted aft to better center the wind to prevent turning. The problem did not arise the first time I sailed the boat which was without the jib.
As Nate suggested, is there an experienced sailor who could go out with you to check on your set-up? As to the rudder, while the boat is on the trailer put the rudder down and see how it looks when fully down. there should be a hole on the rudder that lines up with holes in the rudder stock when the rudder is fully down some boats come with a pin that inserts into the holes. That can be replaced with a golf tee which will shear of in the event of a grounding. Make sure the friction nut that locks the rudder down is tightened down well also. In the immortal words of Capt. David Lawrence "Don't give up the ship!".
Frederick, you're getting a lot of good advice here, so don't want to pile too much more info on. However, I would point out that we don't know if your boat is a MKII (with bowsprit) or not, or whether your jib is the standard one or a larger one, say, on a furler. The standard jib on a MKII with a bowsprit is about 20% more in sq. footage than the original jib (with a corresponding reduction in the size of the mainsail). That puts the center of sail effort forward, so in very light air, a lee helm is more likely to be noticeable. An even larger size head sail increases this tendency. There is naturally (because of the boat's shoal keel design) a bit more leeward slippage anyway on a 16 than many other displacement hulls with different keel configurations. My 16 MKIII with bowsprit and a standard jib on a furler sails wonderfully from a close reach through a run. But it doesn't like to pinch upwind close hauled in light air, and still doesn't point as high as many other models overall.
Second, raking the mast aft on a 16 is not easy (there is no back stay). In principle, moving the sails' center of effort aft will reduce lee helm, but there is not much room for stay adjustments on a 16, which was designed in the first place to allow the mast to be trimmed forward a bit from vertical, not aft. The trade off on the MKII and later models with the sprit is improved upwind performance.
I recently also owned a 24' boat with a swing keel. It was fast, sailed very well upwind and tacked beautifully in even the slightest puff. But beyond about 15 knots the weather helm got so strong, I was throwing the tiller far over to little effect to counter act the force. My 16 comes absolutely alive at about 12 knots, and sails very smoothly and feels balanced, even in strong gusts. There are trade offs.
Jett
Fred:
I haven't read all of the above but you don't by chance have a rare CP 16 centerboard boat, do you?
Bob23
Bob
No centerboard, just the 1987 or 1988 Com-Pac 16 with a 16" keel. I am having someone sail with me today. He's not an expert but I am curious to see if he has the same problem. If not, then I know it is my technique. If he does have the same problems, then we may adjust the mast. If we can not solve the problem with the great posts that I have received at the Com-pac Batch Owners Assoc then I will look for an expert.
However, since the previous owner never had a similar problem in 16 years, I got to believe it is my technique. The only difference is that she sailed on a Squapam Lake in NH and I sail on Casco Bay - salt water with tides.
FRED
I will be interested in the result of your sail as I cannot figure out whats wrong unless a wrong piece of equipment has been installed(rudder,sails,etc) I have sailed my 1978 all these years without the problem you describe.................maybe the mast is rigged to far astern is the only other thing I can think of............do not give up on her , 16's are great boats......nies
Nies is right...don't give up!
I think it's a combination of blown out sails and pushing the tiller too hard when you come about. Before I got my new sails, I'd have to backwind the jib everytime to tack through. After I built a foiled rudder I noticed a considerable increase in performance and easier tacking. After new sails, she was a boat reborn! If they are original sails, it may be time for new ones.
You mention tides...that could be adding to the problem. In light air and tacking into an opposing tide, my 23 really experiences some side slip, big time. If you are sailing into an oncoming current when you are close hauled, you may be unconsciensly pinching the boat.
Are the sails the correct ones for the boat?
Bob23
Just picked up a 16 to play with this spring and had new sails built. The boat showed lee helm with the loose footed main in really light air very much as described, more outhaul corrected this, when I say light I mean under 2kts and mostly drifting. With the lee helm dialed out and in 6-8 kts, helm is good with just a finger touch of weather. Being used to a shelf with a generally fixed initial draft, I unintentionally put too much draft in the main and moved the effort too far forward. Just something to think about. Btw, 6 kts breeze close hauled produced 3.3 miles per hour on the gps with a bump lake from powerboats, cracked off about 5 degrees and picked up to 4.2 on the gps. I haven't done the vector analysis yet for vmg to the mark. Are you guys figuring about 8 degrees to leeward or a little more? Best of luck.
Fred, Yes, a lee helm in a breeze is scary and dangerous but as others have said it is a solvable problem. Make some of the suggested changes and go out when the wind is not strong and when or where tidal currents are not a big factor. Rake the mast very slightly aft or at least not as far forward, add weight to the bow, reduce it in the stern, keep your own weight forward. After a tack if the rudder does not respond and your bow falls away from the wind don't keep the jib sheet in tight. Slack it enough to allow the bow to head up before trimming it. The 16's shallow keel with original stretched sails makes sailing to windward less efficient but the boat will still get you where you want to go.
I'm about 2 hours away from Casco Bay and have some time this week. Emaiil me if you want. Phil
The Physics of sailing.
http://youtu.be/yqwb4HIrORM
Sail Trim
http://youtu.be/doprcXEU8SE
Learn to sail using the tell tales
http://youtu.be/hnOO5Z0zOfs
skip.