Hello,
I am a newbie looking to purchase a CP-23. I sold our 83 O'DaySailer that we've had for over 20 years (before I was married). Now I have three kids and I want to move us to a CP-23. I've done my research sailed a newer model (92') on the LI Sound and I feel this is a perfect boat for the family. Tomorrow I will be looking at a 1981 CP-23 with trailer no motor $2,500. The boat will be moored and put on the trailer in the winter.
Going from the O'Day to the CP-23 is a bit daunting. I knew EVERY part of my old boat, and the CP-23 is a lot of boat. What advice would you give me when looking at this boat. Is there anything in particular I need to "look-out" for?
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
at $2500 i would be looking at everything.
that price is way too low for a compac 23 in sailable condition.
sometimes what looks like a bargain could be a money pit.
carl
You definitely need to look it all over. At that price (cheaper than a 19........ and most 16s for that matter) with a trailer that is cheap.
Maybe you are getting a gem, but doubtful.
If anything, take many pictures, and email them to people who would know what to look for (I would be glad to look them over for you, could send in email.)
A trained eye can see what others wouldnt. also, the prospect of a new boat will cause some to overlook by mistake things that would send a red flag to those who have no vested interest.
Mac
MacGyver,
That's mighty nice of you!
Is there anything in particular I should photograph or that you want to see?
I've been told this boat has been on the hard for three years. I will assume it will need some items updated. My concern is the extent of "updates" needed - whether or not this a good deal or will it be a "money pit".
Again thanks a bunch!!
Interior, exterior, etc.
Any cracks, and notate their locations, etc.
The process might require some phone time, but we can work that out. I am a fiberglass technician by trade, so with your help I can visualize where things are and what stresses may have caused them.
What you might do, is take a lot of pictures, and might end up sending me only a few, then if I need more detail, send me others that would aid me.
If it has been on the hard for 3 years, look for issues on the bottom, like chipped paint in a circular manner. that is typically indicative of blisters, and those are probably not a bad thing, but could be, I can help you differentiate that.
Was the boat salt water or fresh water?
Mac
There's a good buyers guide on sail net here:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/48177-boat-inspection-trip-tips.html (http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/48177-boat-inspection-trip-tips.html)
Of course many of the systems in the article won't apply, but overall worth reading.
There are a few trouble spots when they get that old..deck to hull joint, mast step, leaks, worn out blocks/tracks/engine mount. Leaking bow eye,water intrusion under stanchions and bow/stern pulpits and possible wood damage under these hard points. And of course if the sails and running rigging are original, they are probably shot. From there, damage from grounding seems common.
I wouldn't worry about the outboard not starting. Probably an easy carb rebuild or spark plug change.
Good luck, and welcome to the forum.
If you state where you are there might be a fellow Compa-a-naut that can help you look at it and give some advise.
My '81 with a marginal trailer cost $6500 in 2009 and I thought I got a pretty fair deal, so I agree with the others that $2500 may be underpriced for a reason. In addition to the good ideas others have offered, definitely check the rust on the trailer and make sure it's roadworthy, play in the rudder gudgeon is a common problem and repairable, look inside for evidence of leaks from the deck-mounted hardware and brightwork. Might seem like overkill, but do confirm that all the rigging is complete and correct for that boat, including the sails. Over the years people do the craziest things and getting it right can be expensive.
Some of this depends on what you're going to do with the boat and what you expect from it. A few years ago I looked at an early 80s CP23 locally that was listed for $3,500. It was structurally sound, but water had gotten inside so there were no cushions and all the interior trim had been removed. It was on a trailer, but it was home built with a single mobile home axle (which I don't think is technically legal in MN anymore, in any case it didn't have brakes). The sails were original to the boat, no roller furling. No bimini, no autopilot, older pull start 2-stroke motor, no sink/water tank, no head, no stove. I think the navigation lights might have worked, but it didn't have much for an electrical system. Exterior brightwork needed refinishing, gel coat was oxidized, and the running rigging looked pretty old. The previous owner kept it on a mooring at his cabin, day sailed it, and the kids sometimes spent the night on it with camp mattresses and sleeping bags. IF that is all you want to do with it, then you can focus on structural issues, check for soft spots around the mast step, check the mast and standing rigging for damage, and make sure the trailer isn't about to turn into a pile of rust. A boat like that will get you on the water cheap for some fun with the family.
Personally, I passed on the boat. Taking a boat from that kind of condition to "average" condition costs much more than just buying a boat in average condition. New cushions are $1,000-$3,000 depending on how handy you are. A new set of sails, $2,200. Add roller furling for the jib, about $1,000. A decent used tandem axle boat trailer with surge brakes $1,000-$2,000. Bimini $500-$800, autopilot $500-$700, used 4 stroke motor with electric start so my wife can start it $1,000-$1,500. So if you take that $2,500 boat that might be structurally sound and start adding in repairs and upgrades, you quickly hit $10,000. However, if you just want to get on the water for cheap, the $2,500 boat might be a a good deal, it just depends on what your plans are for using the boat. Since you've been on a 1992, you know what they can look like in presumably good condition. Right now a 1992 in average condition would probably cost $7,000-$10,000, so compare what you're getting for $2,500 compared to what you could get for 7-10k.
I didn't even get a chance to look at the boat.
Here's the update:
When I called this morning to get directions to look at the boat I asked some general questions - his experience sailing it, how does she handle in the chop, what kind of motor he used etc. His answers led me to believe that this guy was flat out lying about being a sailor and even worse, I felt he never sailed this boat. He was getting a little annoyed with my questions and said to me, "Do you want to see the F---'in boat or talk on the phone all day?" But I asked one more question anyway and his answer made me decide to look elsewhere for my next boat. I asked him if he had the papers so I could register the boat and trailer. He told me I didn't need them and that he would give me a bill of sale and that's all I would need. (Not true in NY - You can get a 90 day temporary Registration pending a DMV check.)
So I went with my instincts and decided to pass on the boat. I didn't like his rude manner, that fact I felt he was lying on a few different levels and the questionable ownership of the boat. I learned if you can't trust someone with little things how can you possibly trust them with larger things. To me buying a boat is a BIG thing. I also did not feel comfortable bringing my kids to see this boat due to this man's behavior on the phone. (Heck, I feel I made a lifetime friend with the person I sold my previous boat - it's been a few weeks since the sale, but he's still calling and emailing me all the time and I don't mind it at all.)
To say I am a bit disappointed is an understatement. I got really excited about this boat, but I think I made the right decision. I've heard it on this forum and my grandfather used to say it all the time "if it's too good to be true, it usually is". In any event thanks so much for the feedback and the sound advice. It's good to know you're there to help us newbies.
I am super frustrated not being on the water at this time of year. I am now considering a CP-23 in an other state asking $4,500 or a CP-16. Not having sailed a CP-16 I am worried about how crammed I'll be with my three kids.
Again many thanks!!!
#1 rule of buying a boat...do not get excited until you look at it thoroughly! It's tough to emotionally opt out,
But that was the right thing to do.
With three kids, you'll have little time to fix up an old beater. Look for one that has been well
Cared for. If day sailing, the 16 has plenty of room in the cockpit for you and three kids.
Maybe not if you add another adult...
I'm thinking don't let the impatience of summer make you buy something you'll regret.
The short term gain will be spoiled with long term hassle.
maybe like me a divorce is in the future.
Very wise words Salty19! I'll do my best to heed them, but I keep being pulled into CraigsList and I get lost (I found a CP-19 on CL - http://watertown.craigslist.org/boa/3804237419.html (http://watertown.craigslist.org/boa/3804237419.html)).
That looks more like a honest deal.
Id have to see more of it. 19s are a stable boat, and we have had 5 people in our cockpit. my wife ended up going forward as it was crowded. all adults.
Sails flatter than other boats. Will sleep 4. And with the complete renovation of mine, I can honestly say that I was surprised how nicely built they are (versus all the other boats I have worked on over my 16 year career.) All hardware was able to be gotten too.
Not a 23, but the boat does fit in a garage door opening of slightly less than 8 foot. (8 foot door is actually less than 8 foot) and with the tongue removed, it will fit in as long as you have about 22 feet to keep her in.
setup time for the mast for me on the 19 is about 15 minutes max. leaving the backstay and 2 lowers connected.
I honestly love the 19. otherwise I wouldnt have done all the work to ours.
Here is the link to the post I am running about the work......
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6212.0 (http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6212.0)
The more boats you look over, the more experience you will have when finding the right one.
Mac
Hi Neo:
I would have done the same. I take no pleasure in fools and a lying fool is even worse. A rude, lying fool well- the deal couldv'e been great but he'd get not a dime from me.
Best to you in your searching...you'll find a lot of help here as well as many opinions and a healthy dose of shananigans.
Bob23
Bob23 & Mac,
I appreciate the feedback, it's helping me calm down a bit.
Raising kids make me super conscious of the fact that I have to "walk the walk" and set an example of what is right. I do not want my children seeing their Pop getting involved in shady deals with unsavory people. My kids need to know that the world is full of all kinds of folk and they must be prepared to handle these types of issues. I also want to do what's right ethically because it's just bad karma otherwise (If I had bought this boat, I am sure I'd be questioning the deal big time when I get caught in a bad squall.)
As far as the CP-19 I found on CraigsList is concerned, it's doubtful I'll get to see it. It's an 8 1/2 hour trip one-way from where I am and that's a bit much to go check it out only to discover it's a dog. I did find out, however, that CP-19s are darn hard to find, not just in my area, but around the country. This leads me to believe that a mid to late 80s CP-16 is probably the best boat for us now. It fits our Budget PERFECTLY and although we may not be able to fit all three kids and the wife in the cockpit at the same time, I think we can make do.
My main concern now is, if I do purchase a CP-16, can I still be friends with you guys with the big boats on the forum?
Neo
We let kicking bug stick around. ;)
But I would consider the 19. Make a weekend trip out of it. With the exception of any owner modifications the boat should be solid.
I would contact the owner and ask what modifications have been done and ask for some more pictures. Explain your situation and the distance you would need to travel and I bet he would be willing to accommodate.
I love my 19 and with three kids it would be a much better boat than a 16. Sails flatter and has life lines to keep your kids on board. The 16 heels much more, no lifelines and really no cabin either.
Unless that 19 has some significant damage from a wreck or similar I can't imagine it not being worth $3000. Plus that is the asking price. Bet you could get her for $2,500.
Billy
Having read your post and taking a few moments to consider your advice, I sent an email to the owner of the CP-19 in Waterfall NY a few moments ago. I used your post to cobble together a letter asking him about the boat and I shared with him that it is an 8.5 hour trip from where I live to his town. You can be sure I'll let you know what he has to say.
While I wait for a response from the CP-19 owner I am curious about a few items: Will my wife's Honda Odyssey be OK to make the journey home with this boat? I'll be traveling through the Appalachian Mountains to reach this town. (The owners manual says the towing capacity is 3,000lbs) Any suggestions regarding what size motor works well with the CP-19? Also, if all the running rigging needs to be replaced what's the estimated cost?
Again thanks for the input and I am very glad to have found this forum.
Neo
Neo:
We're all one big happy family of Compac-o-nauts! Here, size doesn't matter. Personally, sometimes I feel my 23 is too big for me. I've been aboard 16's, 19's, 23's and a 27. All are really fine in thier own way. I've been looking around for a clunker 16 that I could use as a trailerable daysailer and I missed a great deal on a very rare 14 a few years ago.
Good luck in your hunting. Sounds like you're a man of intergrity...glad you didn't give that creep your hard earned $!
Bob23
My old engine was a 2.5 hp yamaha and it pushed her just fine......in calm water. It was only a 15" (short) shaft. When the water got rough the prop would come out of the water though. Do a search here and you will find lots on prefered engines.
Your Honda should have no problem towing a 19.
And I am guessing the standing rigging is around $500. Pretty sure there is a parts list floating around here somewhere too.if not email Gerry Hutchins at the compac factory. He will send you one.
Standing rigging for a 19 is about $650, running rigging varies based lines chosen, $200-$400. Main and jib would be a out $1100 min. 19's are indeed very stable and feel worlds safer than 16's. however the 16's are safe too, just heel more.
There is no way a 19 can be setup in 15 mins. Raising mast, yes. Adding sails and fitting running rigging, boom, etc take some addl time, unless your working very fast with two people and no hangups
My bad......I meant getting the rig up. When we setup customers boats we leave the sails to them.
Adding sails and such for me is about 1/2 hour or so......I guess if I had to trailer her, it would take me from drive up to launch to sailable would be around 45 minutes to an hour.
Does that sound right Salty??
We keep ours in a slip (luckily) so it is hard to gauge for me the total time......
Mac
Folks,
I found this CP-23 listed on Maine's CraigsList - http://maine.craigslist.org/boa/3848716168.html (http://maine.craigslist.org/boa/3848716168.html) the asking price $4,500.
Here are some photos they sent me. It's a boatyard selling for a customer.
(http://stpatricksouthold.org/cp/MaineCP23A.jpg)
(http://stpatricksouthold.org/cp/MaineCP23B.jpg)
(http://stpatricksouthold.org/cp/MaineCP23C.jpg)
I've been told via text that that they think the boat is an 84'
Any thoughts based on what you see?
Thanks,
Neo
Not too much to see really, looks like the wood hasn't been maintained in awhile based on the companionway and the tiller. It has the bowsprite so it is either an '84(or later) or an upgraded earlier boat. It is either an upgraded MKI or MKII based on the round portholes. MKI has a very basic interior, MKII is much prettier inside with more storage and less sleeping area. Can't recall when they went to MKIII (89ish??), it is no newer than that.
At some point it was owned by someone fairly serious based on the stern anchor....
Shawn
That could be a sister to my 1985 23/2 with the ligher color band just below the rubrail. If your'e close enough, I'd advise going to take a look. From what can be seen in the photos, she doesn't look bad.
Bob23
hey there.. I am sitting in the cockpit of my 1983 compac 23 as i read this.. the boat in question definitely looks like an 84 or newer.. has all of the upgrades, including stainless steel stanchions and pulpits.. i was just sailing late this afternoon with the previous owner.. had a wonderful time.. this is a great boat..
and, a trip to Maine.. wow.. what more could one ask for :) Bucksport is a way up the coast.. let's see. a stop in Portsmouth NH for lunch.. then on to Camden for dinner and a cup of tea on the docks, dreaming of one day bringing the boat to the Maine coast.. Bucksport in the morning to inspect and hook up the boat.. and then head south.. a stop in Rockland for lunch at The Brown Bag.. ( a great town with lots of great shops, even if not quite as picturesque at Camden) and then home.. how much time do you have? you could make it into a family vacation :) i have lots more suggestions if you do!
good luck with your search and welcome to the forum.. you will meet a few characters here.. but that is half of the fun.. jt
JT,
That sounds great! I actually can take a few days to do a trip like you describe. But my thoughts are more focused on whether or not this boat is worth the trip. The people selling this boat barely communicate when I contact them to ask questions. Everything is done via texting and the delay between the time when they respond to my texts is over 24 hours. When they do respond I get vague answers. "What year is she? Where are you located? I plan on being in you area early next week." Their response: "I think she's an 84 - we're in Penobscot and call ahead, we're usually by the black truck". I smiled and laughed at that one.
Another concern I have is price. My local boating friends told me to look at the NADA guide online to get an idea of where the price should be for this boat, if I want to make an offer. Looking at the guide it list two models of 1984 CP-23s a "23"(Low retail $3,960) and a "23 II" (Low retail $3,800) what's the difference between the two? If I like the boat, I want to be able to make an informed reasonable offer, but honestly I do not know if the NADA guides are accurate. I also do not know how long the boat has been on the hard, uncovered and what surprises (good or bad) I'll find once I take a closer look.
Obviously I do not intend to pay the asking price of $4,500; I'd love to be able to get it for $3,500 or less so I have enough left in the budget to handle all the repairs and needed upgrades to get her to sail safely. Is this realistic?
Another item I am really worried about is the trailer getting this boat home if I do strike a deal. I may have to find a trailer repair guy right away to get it checked. Our family Truckster (aka Honda mini-van) has a towing capacity of 3,500lbs. Will this be safe to pull this boat 350 miles to my house?
(Any knowledgeable CP owners on the forum from Maine? I'd be happy to buy you lunch or dinner (both if you're super cool) plus drinks and give you a few extra dollars if you can meet me at this boatyard in Penobscot, I'll be by the black truck.)
As far as the CP-19 I found in Canada, I mean Watertown NY is concerned, I bet it's sold I haven't heard back from them. I sent two more emails today.
This is a really a great place for me to vent. I feel better already.
Neo
I dont think you can pull that 23..... I have a Ranger that tows 6500 and I would be good to pull it, but you definitely feel it back there.
Now, that 19, you should be good to pull. she weighs about 2500 to 3000 when full. I think the 23 alone is 3000 lbs....... add the trailer and stuff in the boat and voila! over your limit. :(
NADA is not good for ComPac, but will give you a ball park. Ask here as well. The reason is that there arent many sold that get reported, etc. so that affects their numbers.
We have a BUC book at the marina I work at, I use it to get values, and has percentages and adjustment tables, which is nice, but again, the ComPacs are scarce.......
Keep pegging that guy with the 19, when I went to get mine I went about 150 miles or something like that one way, and it WAS A ADVENTURE to say the least.... but we went out and watched the fire works on her, just got back....... it is really nice having a Sailboat, but especially a ComPac.
Mac
I would say no, a Honda Odyssey would not be safe to pull a 23. Especially in hilly New York state.
A 23 and trailer weigh more than 3500lbs.
How are you going to control the trailer brakes? Can you wire up a controller if the trailer uses electronic brakes?
Can your FWD only make it up the ramp with that much on the tongue, lifting the front end?
Are you going to have your wife, 3 kids AND a 23 in tow with a 350-400lb tongue weight?
How close are you to the limits?
What does your insurance company feel about insuring you with this rig? If you exceed vehicle limits, insurance will not cover damages (check this).
Hate to say it, but I think you need to look for a 19 if you want to keep the Odyssey.
I have a 2012 CX-9 which is probably a little better tow vehicle than an Odyssey. It tows the 19 OK, but no way would I want a 23 back there. Granted I'm conservative when towing and don't like the feeling of not being able to control the rig.
LOL...Mac and I answered at the same time.
Conclusion: Get a 19 ;D
You guys are right and I am glad I asked.
I need to find a CP-19.
I found two on CraigsList:
1985 CP-19 II - no trailer Asking $6,175 (What's the difference between a CP-19 and CP-19 II?)
http://newlondon.craigslist.org/boa/3842350022.html (http://newlondon.craigslist.org/boa/3842350022.html)
and
1984 CP-19 with trailer - Asking $5,750
http://burlington.craigslist.org/boa/3883932181.html (http://burlington.craigslist.org/boa/3883932181.html)
Are these priced fairly? What are your thoughts on these two boats?
Thanks!
Neo
Neo, there is very little difference. The II has the factory bowsprit and SS bow and stern pulpits and lifeline stations instead of aluminum.
the prices are on the high side but not too high.
TG
interesting answers.. i wonder which black truck they are describing... :) you are correct to think that the trailer could be suspect. and I agree with the others.. you don't have the right tow vehicle. I don't either.. and no trailer either.. i keep mine at a marina in jersey.. it is a 3 hour trip for me to get here.. and not a pleasant one, but it sure is nice once i am here! lots of nice folks in this neck of the woods.. like bob23 :)
I don't know enough about prices to advise you.. ( gut reaction, however, is that the price is a bit high ) but, have you been to Burlington? another family destination for sure! Church street is a lot of fun - pedestrian area.. the waterfront is great with a cool museum for the kids and the adults... gee, i should try to get up there myself :) Higher Ground has some great music.. we saw Punch Brothers there a year or so ago...
i read the posting.. i am curious about a furling main sail.. perhaps they are referring to roller reefing? as for sleeping 4 adults.. i would love to hear what a compac 19 owner thinks about that. the 23 has 4 places for someone to lie down.. but actually sleeping? you better be very good friends.. my wife and i camp out on the boat.. we brought my stepdaughters down for a weekend.. the four of us on the boat.. to say that it is cramped is an understatement.. let's just say that is it fortunate that we were on the boat in a marina with bathrooms.. otherwise the porta potti would have been in the cockpit.. wait a min, that is where my wife and i spent the second night :)
I hope some of what I have written here is a bit helpful.. all in all, a trip to burlington sounds like a blast!
Well I just heard back from the owner from Vermont of the 1984 CP-19 and he'll sell it to me for 4k.
Does anyone know if the wooden bowsprit was an option offered by Com-Pac or is this a custom mod?
I plan on calling the owner of the boat in Connecticut today. Without a trailer, this boat poses a small problem of getting it to my mooring in the Peconic Bay. I would not feel comfortable sailing a new boat from eastern Connecticut, across Fisher Island sound, Block Island Sound and around Orient Point to the Peconic Bay. This means I must find a trailer or pay to transport the boat.
Anyone have any numbers for a 1985 CP-19 II? (BTW - thanks for explaining the difference between the 19 & the 19 II)
I really have to try to do something else today beside looking for boats. My wife says I'm obsessed - she's probably right.
Neo
we are all obsessed.. i have a feeling that a trip to vt is in the near future :) jt
Well I found another CP-19 II this time in NJ. The owner lives in PA and its a 1986, I found it on Sailboatlistings.com Take a look http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/35815 (http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/35815).
I liked speaking to this man on the phone he was a straight-talker and seem knowledgeable about his boat. He was honest with me and said that during hurricane Sandy the boat lifted off its stands, hitting the boat next to her. this resulted in an 18 inch stress fracture on the topside that he had filled and repaired professionally. (Are there any other red flags I should consider based in this info? He said other than that the boat is fine.) Overall I have a good feeling about this boat. This could be the one, but I need to find a trailer.
Does anyone have the dimensions I would need to modify a bunk trailer to fit a CP-19? I know the weight of the boat should rest on the keel pad and the bunks just steady the boat. It seems that modifying a bunk trailer is my only option since finding a trailer specifically designed and manufactured for this boat is practically impossible or just too expensive.
Also, for those of you following along with this saga, the owner of boat I found on Craigslist, located in Eastern Connecticut, is unwilling to move on his price enough for me to to make that deal happen. I thought he'd be motivated a bit to move on his price because he's been trying to sell it since February 2013. (He also has it listed on sailingtexas.com.)
The 1984 CP-19 in Vermont is now a fall-back, but to tell the truth I was never that pumped-up about that boat as I am about this one in NJ. I hope to make arrangements to see the boat in NJ on Tuesday. I'll let you know how it goes.
Neo
Well, Neo- this sounds interesting.
I wonder what is meant by the term "topsides"? Does he mean the hull above the waterline (I believe that's what is really meant by the term; correct me if I'm wrong) or the cabin or the deck? In any event, it if was done proffesionally, can you see the inside of the repair? Can you speak to the guy who actually did the repair?
It shouldn't be hard to find a trailer and there are many guys here who can provide you with the techs on modifying a trailer to fit a CP 19.
Not being a 19 owner, I can't comment on the price but I will anyway...seems a bit steep without a trailer but I'm sure you'll hear from more knowledgable chaps than me.
Keep us posted,
Bob23
NeoSoul
Here is the website that I found my boat on.
http://sailingtexas.com/
I know it says Texas in the name but my boat was only 100 miles away in Tennessee when I found it.
They currently show a bunch of 23's
Most have photos so you can compair
wow.. just checked out sailing texas.. this has been a regular routine for the past few years :) this is sacrilig, i know. but if you can go to texas.. this is the boat you want :) http://sailingtexas.com/201201/spacificseacraft24103.html
or maybe the one i want.. as for sandy damage.. i will be writing about that in just a bit on the adventures of adagio.. there has been a ton of work for boat repair guys! we are all looking forward to hearing what you find out tomorrow.. for me personally, it is good to hear that you have a good feeling about a guy who lives in PA and keeps his boat in jersey! :) jt