I know this really belongs at the end of the "Seeking a 27!" thread, but it feels like a new beginning, so here goes.
I closed the deal yesterday on the purchase of "Chipsand", a 1988 Com-Pac 27/2 (hull number 74) from a seller in St. Louis. As seems to be the case so often these days, the owner recently died and his son, who is not a sailor, was selling his father's boat to get out from under the slip fees. The father was almost but not quite the original owner; he bought her in 1990. She had not been sailed for almost eight years. The older man got sick, hoped to recover enough to sail again, but didn't. The son is a power boater.
This is my second sailboat purchase, and both times I have been very conscious of the sense of stewardship I feel when acquiring an older boat - the handing down of the mantle of responsibility to care for something that's been important in the life of someone else. I found myself peppering the son with questions about his father, and poring over the thick file of owner's manuals and receipts kept by the old man - looking for clues about his life with this boat.
She is in very good condition for her age, obviously well maintained and of course a very strong boat to begin with. Despite the eight years of relative neglect, enough of her bottom paint hung on to provide some protection from the fresh river water and there are no signs of blisters. The power washing last week blew away most of what remained, and the bottom and the rudder look very good. The old man was careful with maintenance, but unlike many owners he didn't seem to have much interest in additions or improvements. She is almost amazingly unscathed by ill-begotten "upgrades" - still in original factory configuration in almost every way. I like it that way - I prefer to come up with my own ill-begotten upgrades.
So, I embark on what will probably be another six month overhaul project; that's about how long Bella took, and she was in very similar condition. I will sand, strip every piece of hardware, paint the hull and deck, rebed all the deck and hull hardware, and replace almost everything that's not made out of teak, bronze or stainless steel - hoses, pumps, cabin cushion upholstery etc. She will get new sails and running rigging. To my relief, the original standing rigging and engine seem to be in excellent shape. The winches are overdue for maintenance but I'm confident that a rainy weekend rebuild will bring them back to good shape. The sheet winches are Lewmar self-tailers, and I'm looking forward to taking them apart to see how they work. The teak is sound but lost all its varnish a couple of years back, so I'm hopeful that sanding and Cetol will bring back the glory days.
My first investment in this project, by the way, was $35 for Don Casey's "This Old Boat" from Amazon. Because of my restoration project on Bella, there are lots of aspects of the 27 that I'm immediately comfortable with. But there are also many deep mysteries - a Diesel engine, the Edson wheel steering, a fresh water plumbing system including a pressure pump, the mid-boom mainsheet traveler, and of course a real marine head. Casey's book is a treasure trove of experience and wisdom in all these matters. Coupled with CPYOA it's almost all you need to tackle a full scale renovation. Highly recommended.
Enjoy the photos. I'm looking forward to months of shameless stealing of good ideas from the 27 sailors here, and in exchange will offer my hard-won experience to any who decide to downsize to a 19!
On her jack stands after hauling and pressure washing. She is the three portlight model. It's personal preference, but I like the three light version - to me she looks a little more rakish and racy than the four light version. Keith Scott at the Sailboat Company doesn't agree - he's a four-light man.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/504926b5af1e159194e83ac459101a8e.jpg)
This is what happens to Interlux Micron CSC after eight years in the water and a good pressure washing. Bonus: very little left to sand off:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/f1e86d8f803b055f341063e5c6ecc8bc.jpg)
As a loyal CP 19 man, I have no idea what any of these parts are for - but I intend to find out:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/6848e67ccba923e9bd68cfb29b379da3.jpg)
More stuff that I don't understand. I understand the round thing has something to do with steering the boat. Wouldn't have spent my own money on a bimini, but now I'm kind of excited about having it for those hot summer days. The canvas is shot but the stainless frame is very high quality - probably the factory option:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/1b871112054f0baa1db16d838b452e7b.jpg)
The Admiral is totally stoked about the cabin. Room to stand up! A bathroom with a real toilet and a real door! And this fabulous dining table for when we raft up next to the royal yacht and invite William and Kate over for tea:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/bc585d59b8033d742c44de6b3602618b.jpg)
Wish me luck, boys. I'll probably have to get a second job to support this habit. In all seriousness, the CPYOA community is entirely the reason I went on a search for another Com-Pac instead of one of the myriad other good deals out there on Craigslist. Stand by for the questions to begin.....
Wes
Glad to see you bought her Wes,
It really is overall in great shape and can be fixed without a doubt,
I have a idea to fix those corners without it being a ton of work, catch up with me sometime on that.
Also, did you find a hauler yet?
Glad to see they hit the bottom hard, less to sand is a NICE thing! At work we just sanded a Capri 22 that was in bad bottom shape, had paint like crazy, took 3 guys 2 and a 1/4 hours each with 40 grit to sand it all off!!
Jason
Congrats!!! She looks great below. it is nice when a PO has'nt plastered brass nic-nacs all over ;D
Good luck with here.....have fun bringing her back to life!!
Wes:
I'm sure you'll give your 27 the new lease on life that she deserves. Being able to stand erect like a modern human being is a real plus. Haveing your wife on board with your new boat-priceless!!!!!
Bob23
Congrats, Wes. I know you will bring her back to her former glory, and them some.
I'm excited to hear about your upcoming adventures. Good luck, and have fun with it.
Wes,
It looks great! I am still finding mud dauber tubes in all the underneath and out of site areas. There must be a bunch of them around ST Louis.
Good luck. You will be amazed what a little elbow grease and polishing compound will do to the hull and deck.
BobK
hi Wes, great looking boat, with your track record, it will be a showpiece before you are finished! I was introduced to compacs through a colleague of mine in NH who bought a 27 in Florida on the strength of a local survey. He was not disappointed, and i got to do some nice sailing aboard her on Lake Winnipesaukee. hey, maybe i will come down your way and hitch a ride with you when you are finished! best of luck.. jt
OK Wes, Thought about a name? Maybe Bella II? Or Bella XXVII?
TG
Hi Wes,
Good to see things are working out with the boat. She looks to be well preserved. (Relatively) Fresh water is always a plus it seems. Good luck with the restoration. I can't offer anything there as I have none the skills required. You have done this before so I'm sure it will all work out. You couldn't ask for a better group of people than the members of this forum to help you on your way.
Can't wait to hit the water again, only about a month to go until it warms up enough.
Fair Winds and Calm Seas to All,
Vectordirector
Yesterday Miss Currently Unnamed (still working on that) arrived safely in NC after the 952 mile road trip from St. Louis, which the trucker accomplished in 23 hours of straight-through driving ("driving' all night, my hand's wet on the wheel..." - remember "Radar Love"?). Yikes, the trailer sailor in me quakes at the thought of pulling 6000 pounds plus trailer over the mountains at 70 mph.
I head to the DIY boatyard at the coast tomorrow, armed with tarps, tools, and 50 brand new sheets of 150 grit sandpaper for the random orbit sander. First Dog Max is skipping this trip because power tools make him nervous - he's a sensitive guy. The Admiral is no doubt looking forward to a weekend alone.
Thus begins a new project.
Wes
Congrats on getting her moved! The fun begins.....keep us posted with pictures as well. "Radar Love"...yep....can't get the guitar riff outta my head after reading your post ;D :o :o
First day of renovation wrapped. It was an afternoon spent stripping hardware off the deck, prep for eventual painting. Some random observations about Miss 27:
1. Wow, there are a lot of hoses. Fuel hoses, water hoses, waste hoses, vent hoses. How can a simple fuel tank possibly require four hoses? Luckily Don Casey has a chapter on this. I will memorize it tonight.
2. Boy, that's a long walk up to the bowsprit. I feel like the captain of the Queen Mary.
3. Seriously, what is it about wasps and sailboats? How did they possibly get inside the instrument pod on the wheel pedestal? Looks like I may spend a day doing nothing but finding and defusing mud dauber nests.
4. Thanking my lucky stars that the 90 year old PO was an engine freak. You could eat off the pristine little Universal 10 HP. Every belt, filter, and hose (SO many hoses) looks brand spanking new. About 360 hours on a 25 year old engine. Keith Scott says on his web site that sailboat diesels never need rebuilding, only repair - they don't get enough hours to ever need to be rebuilt.
5. Winch removal today. Lovely warm feeling of familiarity when removing the little Lewmar 6s (halyard winches), just like the ones on my 19. Already have spare parts on hand, no sweat. But whoa, the Lewmar 16 self tailers (sheet winches) are another story. They are ginormous and have way more gears. This should be interesting.
More tomorrow!
Wes
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/b34a1081003eefe4704c5e9c805cc2be.jpg)
The Admiral is totally stoked about the cabin. Room to stand up! A bathroom with a real toilet and a real door! And this fabulous dining table for when we raft up next to the royal yacht and invite William and Kate over for tea:
I have to say that one statement is enough to give me four footitis if I thought it would work with Admiral Sheri. Have fun with the renovations and refit, I'm sure it will turn out just as nice as Bella.
I'm sure shell be looking good soon, keep the pictures coming! I've just about got Koinonia how I want her so now I have to watch somebody else make improvements and get her looking good.
Update? ;D :o ::) :o
Update: it's always darkest just before the dawn.
I have seven weekend days invested (so far, probably two more left to go) in completely stripping off every shred of rigging, deck hardware, teak trim, through-hulls, rub rail, etc. And I do mean everything. Done right, I believe deck and hull painting requires this, and it's a colossal pain in the a**, especially due to the liberal use of 3M 5200 to bed all this hardware at the factory. I think 3M should raise the price of 5200 to $100/tube, which would encourage people not to use it (or to use just a little). So far, I've gone through three cans of Debond Marine Formula getting it all off, and just ordered three more cans for the remaining work and then the cleanup of all that hardware on my bench at home.
With luck I'll be able to scrub her with Interlux fiberglass prep soon (to remove every trace of old wax), then start the sanding process. All of this is comfortingly familiar from my 19 project not so long ago. The 27 is like a big friendly shaggy dog. For the most part her cavernous cabin and bilge areas, plus the use of larger hardware, has made this process much less painful than on the 19. Everything seems so easy to get to, with plenty of working room. There is really not all that much more hardware than on the 19.
Probably the biggest and most pleasant surprise was the amount of empty space around the engine. I swear you could sleep a family of four down in those bilges. I've never owned a boat of this size, but I've read plenty of issues of Good Old Boat, and it's my strong impression that engine access on the CP 27 is astonishingly easy. You really have full, unrestricted access from all four sides. As a result the PO was able to keep the engine compartment spotlessly clean.
A few photos below. More to come!
Wes
Almost bare foredeck (it's totally bare now; need an updated photo). Note I am getting rid of that pesky mainsheet traveler inside the cockpit; will install a new one on the cabin top.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/a9279a8de4c6997d152be3031b5bb74e.jpg) (http://s1108.photobucket.com/user/wnewman/media/a9279a8de4c6997d152be3031b5bb74e.jpg.html)
Edson 335 pedestal being disassembled. The original Aquameter binnacle compass is completely shot. Edson recommends a Ritchie Navigator replacement, which I'll order. I stumbled across great Ritchie prices at www.vikingcompass.com. Much lower than Defender - wow, that rarely happens. That Edson steering system is solid as a rock, though. The chain and cables look brand new despite 25 years of use. Got to figure out what to do about nav instruments. Leaning to moving my Garmin GPS from the 19 to this boat, since I rarely use it for daysailing, and getting that really cool Garmin GMI 10 universal display with a depth transducer. The GMI 10 talks NMEA 2000 to the GPS, the transducer, and in the future maybe to other sensors like masthead anemometer. So the entry price is a little steep but in the future you just add more sensors; same display can talk to all of them.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/7e5161263c7722822590e642c42facd3.jpg) (http://s1108.photobucket.com/user/wnewman/media/7e5161263c7722822590e642c42facd3.jpg.html)
Bowsprit back home on my bench. Sad state of all the teak due to years of neglect. The bowsprit is very saveable though; I'll sand and refinish it.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/43d2d12cb04e33f83d7b6d24278634dc.jpg) (http://s1108.photobucket.com/user/wnewman/media/43d2d12cb04e33f83d7b6d24278634dc.jpg.html)
More to come! Off to the DIY boatyard again on Saturday morning.
Wes
lots of room is nice to have around the engine, granted you dont realize how small a M12 is untill its sitting on your utility trailer. Good to see the progress, are you going to be using awlgrip, imron, or interlux perfection on the boat?
My only experience is with Perfection, so that's what I plan to use again.
Wes
its good paint, very much like imron and I love both.
Hey wes, could you do me a little favor. Im going to make a removable keel guide for my trailer just for getting the compac on and off easier. Can you tell me what the keel thickness is? I know your frequenting yours out of the water at the moment and it would be a big help, thanks!
Josh
Sure, I guess you mean the width at the widest point near the center of the keel? I will be out there this weekend and will get this info for you.
Wes
Keel width at the bottom is approx. 9" at the widest part. This is on the 27 of course.
Thanks Wes, that will help with my removable keel guides!
Wes, how is the boat coming??? Pictures?
Family and work stuff (plus the ridiculous amount of rain we've had in NC this spring) have kept me away from the boatyard for over a month. So nights and weekends I've plugged away at the never ending job of turning a basement full of dirty old deck and cabin hardware into a basement full of nice clean polished and restored old deck and cabin hardware. Latest task: stripping down the Lewmar ST16 winches, cleaning, lubing, replacing pawls and springs. They have a few more parts than the familiar Lewmar 6's on the 19, but overall this is comfortable territory for me after my 19 rebuilding project a couple of years ago. Note the conveniently located bottle of Pinot Noir.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/08ab8606fb0caf1115c5a86ee0fe2fd7.jpg)
Yesterday, at last, a break in the rain and therefore a boatyard day. I spent it building a better tent arrangement so I can continue working when it rains, get some shade from the brutal sun, and waste less time dealing with the tarp at the beginning and end of every work day. Here's a valuable tip: renovate a boat small enough to fit in your garage ;D
A-frame structures at bow and stern. The three verticals are 2x4x14', crossed at the top to form a seat for the mast. 2x4x8' cross braces at the bottom to tie the legs together. 50 lb. bags of play sand to hold the thing down.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/609fbf02d0adbcdb2c1d76add487661c.jpg)
The boom is just leaning there for storage - no structural purpose! As a 19 guy I am still in awe of how massively big the 27's mast and boom seem.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/424a00ed8254952558c93a0d85688905.jpg)
As you can see, the bottom paint has been sanded off and the hull is bare. I have a wee bit more teak to strip off (the much maligned eyebrows, and the coaming tops which seem to have been glued down with about a quart of 3M 5200 each; I despair of ever getting them off. More photos over the coming weeks, if the rain ever stops.
Wes
Wes,
After much consideration and thought over years of playing the "Wouldn't it be cool if..." game, I really am digging your labor of love project and wish I could endeavor
to own a 19 and 27 as well. OK, OK, I want another 16 too, but that would be for quick winter sails, reserving the slip for the bigger boat.
Alright, who am kidding, I don't have time to maintain 3 boats!
Unfortunately I'm not near big water, and don't care to own a boat 2 1/2 hours one way at Lake Erie, so with 25' slip local restrictions, the 27 is out of reach. For now anyway. I'm going to look into getting some bigger slips on the lake, but doubt that will happen.
But the 19 as you know is one fine boat too, and I'm having a blast with her sailing the local lake. For what I'm asking it to do, it takes me there in luxury, safety, and style. But oh boy wouldn't be the 27 be fun!
So until then, I'll following your journey and just know it will be really something special when you're all done with it.
Salty - that's a thoughtful response and I'd like to share my own thinking. I love my 19 and don't think I'll ever be able to part with her. But I grew dissatisfied with trailer sailing after a couple of years. Our lake in central NC is small compared to yours. I was spending 45 minutes to an hour driving to the lake, then 45 more to rig and launch. That's 3 hours or more lost from every sailing day, and some hot, sweaty work in the summer. Some days I'd do all that work and then: no wind. A slip wasn't an option; the lake is a state park with one marina that has a two year waiting list.
Then I discovered coastal sailing on the rivers and sounds of eastern NC. The environment is beautiful and unspoiled, the wind is consistent, and there are lots of destinations for day sails or weekend trips. Slip rentals are plentiful and cheap. The drive is 2 hours and 15 minutes, but when I get there I can go sailing; no mast to raise and no powerboat shenanigans at the ramp. Life is good.
Except that my Admiral is a nervous sailor, and when the bigger coastal wind and waves pick up she's very unhappy.
I don't want a huge boat with all the attendant costs and hassles - just something that will handle 20 knots of wind and a couple of feet of chop with, shall we say, less sense of adventure. Keeping my fingers crossed that the 27 will be a good fit.
Plus: I just love fixing up older boats.
Wes
I don't want a huge boat with all the attendant costs and hassles - just something that will handle 20 knots of wind and a couple of feet of chop with, shall we say, less sense of adventure. Keeping my fingers crossed that the 27 will be a good fit.
Want to know how that turns out for you. I too am thinking about a change. When we move to the coast (working on the house right now to get it ready to sell), I need to decide between going up in size, the rationale being similar to your thinking on the 27, or go down in size, to make it easier to single hand and set up. I thought I would travel with the 23 more so I didn't want to be slip bound, but the truth is I don't travel that much with it and it is a hassle when I do. So it is either larger with standing headroom for my back and an enclosed head for the Admiral, that stays in a slip all the time, or something smaller and easier to rig and launch.
Right now, I have to travel 35 miles each way to either sail or work on the boat, and that is a pain. Additionally, I have to retrieve it and bring it home to do any serious work because the marina limits what I can do on their property.
When I lived on the coast before, it sure was nice to drive five minutes to the harbor, step on the boat and be off. And there were several marinas within a days sail that would let owner labor take place.
I think you may have the right idea. Keep them both. ;D
So far this summer the weather gods have offered two choices, sometimes changing hourly: torrential rain or brutal heat. Sometimes just for variety they provide both at the same time.
Doubtful anyone would mistake me for Don Casey based on my boat repair skills, but modesty fails me when it comes to my tarp tenting skills, which are are the envy of the boatyard:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/0dce5ebb917cf99187b92f29f3d85ef0.jpg) (http://s1108.photobucket.com/user/wnewman/media/0dce5ebb917cf99187b92f29f3d85ef0.jpg.html)
As you can see I've now supplemented my mast ridge-pole rig with two easily movable 2x4x12' "poles," so I can lift one side of the tarp at a time, allowing me to work on the boat in relative comfort regardless of weather, if by "relative comfort" you mean 95 degree temps, 99% humidity, and mosquitos the size of Yorkshire terriers.
Just finished my 4th straight weekend doing battle with Satan's Adhesive. So far I've used seven 12 oz. spray cans of Debond Marine Formula, which combined with temps in the 90s is doing a good job of defeating all that old 5200. This weekend in addition to removing huge quantities of it under the old Bomar hatches, I also pulled out all 144 hull to deck bolts - the sanding, masking and painting will go easier with the bolts out. It's tedious work but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. One more weekend should do it, then it's on to the next steps: dewaxing the hull and then sanding.
Amusing side note: after placing my latest order for Debond, the owner of the company actually called me up and said "Hey, I've noticed you're buying a lot of my product, I'd be glad to save you some money and sell it to you in cases of 12 cans, at the wholesale price" (about 40% off retail). I LOVE small companies. You're not going to get a call like that from West Marine.
Not so amusing side note: The Mssrs. Hutchins must have been drinking in the tiki bar with Jimmy Buffet the day they decided to glass in the interior of the hull to deck joint and in the process embed the genoa track nuts under a layer of fiberglass. Especially since only half are accessful from the bilge area, and the others require disassembling a LOT of teak trim inside the cabin and head. Did I mention the heat and humidity inside that boat? A miserable task. A rare mistake by my boys in Clearwater. But they are still way on the positive side of the Karma Ledger in my book. This is a nice boat.
Wes
Working on a ComPac sure gives one an appreciation for the build quality of their boats.
Glad to see it still coming along Wes, keep up the good work!
Mac
I learned a hard lesson on my 19 renovation project: the hull to deck bolts are individually trimmed to length at the factory, so each is a different length. Didn't discover this until I went to reassemble - what a pain. So, wiser this time - I drilled 144 holes in a scrap piece of 2x4 so I could reassemble them in the same order. P for port, T for transom, S for starboard. Today's score: Wes 1, Gods of Chaos 0.
Tonight I will lord it over the Admiral, who has been refusing to admit that a drill press is a reasonable kitchen accessory.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/c9162b3f18886de46c05e664b0770683.jpg)
O...................M.........................G..............................
The time..........
Its........ ITS....... MAGNIFICENT
Great idea!
Mac
The level of genius that lives on this site always amazes me! I'm sure that 2x4 will find a permanent home aboard your 27.
Bob23
Au contraire. I am going to offer it up gratis on the CPYOA classifieds to someone undertaking a similar project. It's amusing to think about the UPS guys checking out my shipment of a scrap piece of 2x4 full of holes.
By the way, although my invention is designed for the 27, it is "backwards compatible" and will also work with the 23, 19, and 16. However for the 35 it requires a factory upgrade.
Wes
Wes,
I hope your very early morning post yesterday was not a result of a night of little sleep aboard Bella! :)
Mark - you hit the nail on the head. Two very hot and humid nights aboard this weekend. I've got to come up with a solution for this weather. I met a couple who are restoring a Tartan 37 on weekends, sleeping aboard in the boatyard. They bought a $99 window AC unit at K-Mart, and mounted it in a piece of plywood shaped to replace the companionway drop board. That's cheaper than one night at the Hampton Inn, plus I can probably sell it for $50 on craigslist when I'm done.
Wes
I use a 7000 btu cruise air unit in the center hatch and it does wonders. With very minor trimming of the starboard lazarette it can be stowed in that location.
Hi Wes:
I noticed that you have the bow rail removed. I was trying to remove mine today and could not get at the nuts below. I am confused about the mounting method. My good boat (yes I have two) is mounted differently than the parts boat I'm striping. The parts boat has a plate mounted to the deck rail which is about two inches longer than the foot on the mount plate of the bow rail mounting foot. The plate in question is mounted to the deck rail with two self tapping screws. The foot of the bow rail has bolts going through that plate and rail but I can not find the nuts inside. I suspect they might be in the area where the deck and hull are bolted together. Where were your bolts and nuts. My "good" boat does not have this intermediate plate. Trying to finish the parts removal process before the snow flies, Motor, trans and prop shaft are next on the list to be removed. Today we stored the mast and boom and started taking off the Edson pedestal. Last week I cut the keel off and dragged it out from under the boat with a pickup truck (all two thousand pounds of it).
Thanks in advance
Bruce
S/V Allure
Swansea, MA
Bruce - To get to those nuts I had to remove the interior trim panels that form the walls of the v-berth, which entailed first removing the teak trim along the top and sides. Then the big panel just lifts out. Then I had to temporarily peel back a few inches of carpet and remove a long strip of plywood that forms a kind of furring strip or nailer along the top. This will give you access to the nuts. I know - what a pain. Lucky for me I would have had to do this anyway to get to the chainplate nuts, since I'm rebedding those too.
Anxious to hear about your prop shaft removal. I will be doing that too, in order to replace the cutlass bearing. Very intimidating, especially for a guy who has never had a diesel.
Wes
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/25d4278ace214d78337226ff222f008e.jpg)
Hi:
I ended up grinding the heads off of the six bolts with a die grinder to get the bow rail off. Just got the stern cut open and removing the shaft, cutlass bearing, shaft tube out this week. What a collection of junk in the shaft tube channel. Going to cut the floor around the Edson pedestal to remove that because I can not get the nuts of the plastic sleeves the cables run through underneath (worry about those later). I want to get the engine and trans out before the winter sets in so I can get what's left crushed up and have my driveway back for the first time in five years. Stripped off and stored everything salvageable including the mast and boom. Makes me sad to see what is left, it's not pretty but I did get a lot of good parts off it.
Bruce
S/V Allure
Wes,
Since you have stripped your boat, you seem to be the guy to ask: how do you remove deck hardware that's been bedded with 5200? Seems tough stuff to get off. Thanks for any hints!
Jens
Yes - it's Satan's Glue. Much misused as a sealant when what it really is is an adhesive, and a powerful one. Personally I think its proper place is only where you expect the bond to last forever, such as hull to deck joints.
To remove, I use an aerosol product from Debond Corp., called "Marine Formula." Spray on, wait a while, pry off, then use more to clean off the residue. For really thick areas, I wet a putty knife with the stuff, then work it between the hardware and deck followed by a spray into the joint, to allow the solvent to penetrate more quickly to the whole area of the joint.
Helps to work on a nice hot day - the action is faster when the temp is high.
It's a pretty benign chemical, other than being a powerful killer of 5200. Doesn't smell too bad, doesn't attack fiberglass or plastic, neutralized with water, alcohol or glass cleaner when you're done. Very nice when used with a Scotch-Brite pad to clean up filmy residue.
It's sold by most online marine discounters including Defender, but I actually found it cheaper to order directly from the manufacturer because their shipping charge is so low.
I ordered so much for my 27 project that the owner of Debond called me and volunteered to sell me the case quantity (12 cans) at wholesale. Nice customer service. I will end up using about 12 cans on my 27. I think the case price was about $150.
Wes
I wish there was a way here in the forum software to send a large electrical shock through the wide, wide world of the web, through their keyboard to those who recommend the use of 5200 on their boat in any context except perhaps the hull to deck joint. But I'm afraid no such feature exists.
Friends do not let friends use 5200.
Salty: our friends, the Hutchins borthers, seem keen on the stuff, though. It's everywhere on the CP-27.
A heat gun and persistence will help release the grip of 5200 when the need arises.
Leverage or light persuasion with a heavy mallet is sometimes also required in addition to the heat gun.
I avoid putting 5200 back on the boat anywhere. Caulk or less adhesive bedding compound is a good replacement in places where 5200 was originally used.
The hull to deck joint would be an exception but I haven't had a need to mess with it. Maybe rebedding the ports if they leaked, but maybe bedding compound there. Again, no need to mess with that either.
Curtis
Wes: I just ordered my Debond marine formula. Thanks for the hint; I hope I'll manage to get the stuff off!
The Ways of Hutchins can be mysterious indeed. My 1988 CP19 had 5200 everywhere, all of which I removed to the considerable profit of the Debond Corporation. However my 1988 CP27 had 5200 in some locations (deck hardware, Bomar hatches) and some other kind of flesh colored sealant (maybe a polysulfide, like Lifecaulk?) in others (teak coaming tops, companionway sliders, most other exterior teak). Luckily, to paraphrase the now famous Honey Badger (ok, look it up on YouTube), Debond Marine Formula "don't give a s**t." It happily eats it all.
On the 19 I rebedded with 4200, which worked fine although it makes quite a mess. Still a few months away from reassembling the 27, but leaning to butyl tape. I found the detailed instructions on the Compass Marine blog to be very convincing. We shall see.
Wes
After rebedding the 19 all in butyl tape, I am sold..... and that was a hard sell. I dont have a single leak, and was really careful how I sealed them up.
Only drawback, after dressing it all up, the heat caused a little more to squeeze out, but all will be well once I get to cleaning it back up when she is pulled.
Mac
Sanding weekend! Using a guide coat of aerosol black lacquer to see where I'm going and where I've been. Works great - kudos to the brilliant Don Davis for this idea. Otherwise sanding a white hull in the blazing sun is, like, snow blindness, dude.
So excited - soon will come primer, meaning the dreaded brown stripe will be gone. I hate that thing. What were they thinking? Who walks into a sailboat dealer and says "hey, how much extra for the awesome brown stripe?"
Wes
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/8cdbdf1288bfb2b9ccabc71e3d5f68c0.jpg)
slick idea with the paint.
Hey Wes, any tips on taking up the hand rails. I'd like to bring my home for the winter to refinish, but I'm afraid of breaking them in the process. What worked best, prying from up top? Tapping from down below? Were they bedded with the 5200?
Thanks
On both my 19 and 27, the handrails came off easily after removing the nuts below. Just wiggled them off, gently pulling from above. I do not suggest tapping from below, since you will likely drive out the teak plugs.
Mine were bedded in polysulfide which released easily. God help you if yours are bedded in 5200. If so I would give them several applications of Debond from above, while gently working a thin putty knife under each contact point. Patience, grasshopper.
Don't ask me for advice on removing the eyebrows though. Have never successfully gotten them off without breakage - they are incredibly delicate. For the 19 I bought a new set from Hutchins. For the 27 the new ones are extremely expensive, so I'm going to make a new set myself. Even so it will be expensive - teak is running $22/board foot.
Teak is running 22$ a board foot...... that is cheap!
I paid 32 for 4/4 and 36 for 8/4 finished 3 sides
where you buying your teak at?
Mac
Congrads Wes ,About your 10 hp uni des, my 27 seemed a little slow so I talked quite a few times with the techs at Westerbeke and decided to reprop her .
She had a 12x9 two blade ,they recomended a12x11 ,I found a used 12x12 two blade and installed it .The engine ,the boat and I really like it .She moves very nicely and easily now. Has anyone else done this ? Also if you do not have a engine manual they are available .That is a sweet little power plant .
Congrads Again & Good Luck ,Captain Vince
Mac - haven't actually bought any yet, but the boys at the boatyard are recommending World Panel Products, www.worldpanel.com, because they specialize in marine wood products and their NC location is just 30 min. from here. They have teak lumber as well as veneer plywood. I like the idea of picking out my boards in person.
Vince - that's a cool idea. Where did you find a used prop? I do have the original 12x9 as you did. Already thinking of replacement because I fear I have some galvanic damage, but hadn't thought of a different pitch.
Wes
Wes ,I was very lucky ,I went the local prop shop and was going to have them recondition and twist my 12x9 to 12 x11 . I asked where a guy might find a used prop like I wanted ? They have couple of shelves full and we found the 12x12 with the correct shaft size & tapper ! They buffed, trued,& balanced it all for $250,lucky me,eh. The shop is here in Port Clinton OH called Menderman Marine Products phone # 419-732-2626 .
If I can help in any way let me know. Vince
Ebay can be a great source for props if your not in a hurry, I got a few laying around the house as door stops that I picked up for 10 to 20 dollars. I got the 3 blade prop for my M25XP install for 75 dollars and later for my large two blade that I havnt tried yet for 20 bucks.
Quote from: MacGyver on September 15, 2013, 03:44:41 PM
Teak is running 22$ a board foot...... that is cheap!
I paid 32 for 4/4 and 36 for 8/4 finished 3 sides
where you buying your teak at?
Mac
After I could not find a stick of teak while in Panama City, FL in June, but was quoted $30/bdft. if they had it, I was up in Memphis getting some Lacquer and retarder and asked where I might find teak there. Guy at the Valspar wood store give me a couple of places to look, and the last place had African Teak. Unlike the farm raised teak that is junk as far as I'm concerned, this stuff looked just like the old growth Asian Teak I'm used to. Same grain, very slightly lighter color tone. I bought an 8/4 rough board to try it out. It was $14/bdft. Anyone use African teak before? I'm planning to make a set of eyebrows from it and also a laminated rub rail for a skiff I'm building.
just be sure to have fresh blades when sawing, especially if using it on a table saw to made those long thin eyebrows. I get all my exotic woods from a place within an hour of my house called East Teak, our of Donalds SC. Prices vary depending on what you want and if you want it rough cut or finish cut. They also have plywood in various woods as well. If people are looking for teak and holly they have that as well, I dont have their number but a google search will bring them up.
Any updates? Pictures?
This is what we do when it's too cold to go sailing even here in temperate NC, and when we have a house full of teak trim. Not much progress being made at the boatyard, but things are in high gear at home. My wife is a saint to give up the kitchen every week from Friday evening until Sunday afternoon
After considerable hand-wringing I'm going with Helmsman spar varnish this time. Ten coats, first two thinned, sanded with 400 grit after every coat. First eight coats gloss, last two satin. Based on experience gained on my previous project (Bella), Cetol is easier (less sanding) but I have found it fails more precipitously (black spots) if not kept well maintained. The Helmsman fails more forgivingly - just gets duller with time.
All these pieces are original (1988) and were sanded back to life; some epoxy patching of minor holes and chipped corners. The ones that will need to be plugged after installation are just getting one sealer coat on the exposed side, with the remainder applied on the boat. Otherwise sanding down the plugs would take off too much varnish. These pieces get six coats on the backside - the side that will be bedded against the boat.
Pieces not requiring plugging (drop boards, tray table, bowsprit etc.) get the full ten-coat treatment on all sides. For the handrails (11 through-bolts and teak plugs each) I'm taking a risk and pre-plugging them so I can finish them at home with bolts in place. Bolts were epoxied in place so they won't rotate when tightened down. I couldn't face the prospect of all that masking and sanding on the boat.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/BC051C62-0FD9-4B1D-A837-C574628B462F.jpg)
Wes - the brightwork is amazing. An enormous amount of work. I've used Helmsman before and it holds up well.
Back to your question about instruments: I'm very pleased with the GMI 10 system I installed a couple of summer ago. Because the mast needs to be pulled to install the wind instrument, I've decided not to install that part of the system. It's still in the box. It would be fairly straightforward for you at this stage in your renovation. If you're interested, let me know. I'm sure we could work out a good price.
Either way, continued success with the project!
Bill
The long winter drags on; until this weekend it's been too cold for boatyard work. Onward with the indoor projects!
Rebuilding my 1988 Edson model 335 steering pedestal. Don't think it's been apart since the day it was built. Showing no signs of problems, but Edson tech support says the wire & chain should be replaced every 7-10 years at least, because chain failure (micro cracks) is invisible until the chain breaks, probably in the middle of a howling gale. Since I have to disassemble the pedestal (mostly) to get the wire & chain out, I decided to do a full rebuild job. Did I mention the weather has been lousy?
View of the internal works after compass removed. I have the older style pedestal with shift lever on the wheel side (to the left in the photo):
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/7e5161263c7722822590e642c42facd3.jpg)
After removal of chain and throttle/shifter controls. Note the brake assembly at the bottom. Pedestals have "drum brakes" (sort of):
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/0315d9e342ee84ae924cde576475b69e.jpg)
Brake retainer clip removed in preparation for removal of brake "pads" and brake knob/shaft:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/45147c6a7cba07e59c97f71d62f5119a.jpg)
Brake assembly after removal. Edson sells a brake rebuild kit, but I didn't need it. Don't think the PO used the brake very much (or at least he used it gently):
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/e0ab723227d0d300dd367edb2dd12241.jpg)
The dreaded pin that retains the chain sprocket on the wheel shaft. OMG this was hard to remove. Two weeks of PB Blaster, propane torch on the sprocket, biggest pin punch that would fit (1/4"), three pound hammer.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/34a040c684c6e0be48613c4d91821155.jpg)
Finally out. If you do this on the boat, stuff a towel inside the pedestal first, so the sprocket doesn't fall down to the bottom of the pedestal when the shaft is pulled out:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/04d0730162c472d3c02be035fbcb0c11.jpg)
Wheel shaft fully removed. Edson also sells a shaft rebuild kit containing bearings, o-rings, snap rings, nylon washers, and a replacement for the hated retaining pin, which I did buy. I could feel some roughness in the bearings and suspected they had not been kept greased.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/afb52fa3eec9ac797ad60eae5c363c85.jpg)
More photos coming after I get it all reassembled!
Holy cow!
This way too complex for a simple Com Pac.
Give me the tiller.
skip.
Nice Job Wes,
Between you and I, so far in all my years of boat repair, we are the only ones I know of to have disassembled a pedestal. I am glad I am not alone now.
Mac
Mac - this is the start of a trend, my friend. Mark my words, soon everybody here will be doing it. Why, the number of us pedestal-disassemblers has already grown by 100% - and that's just in the first week.
I'm awarding myself bonus points for not only disassembling the blessed thing, but COMLETELY REMOVING IT FROM THE BOAT. Top that!
Wes
Once, as a Cadet at Maritime College, I was sent to the bridge to grease the Relative Bearing, does that count?
TG
Oh c'mon, guys. It really doesn't look that hard. Maybe Mac can bring one to the CLR and you guys could stage a race to see who's fastest. Maybe try it blindfolded or with one hand.
I once removed a steering wheel from a 1956 VW Beetle...do I get points for that?
Bob23
Bad news at the boatyard. Started in on reinforcing the infamous joint where cabin house meets foredeck (early CP 27s all seem to develop cracks there), working from below - right above the v-berth. But moisture meter showed a ton of wetness all around that area; looks like the cracks let water into the area of the foredeck that's foam cored. Unlike balsa core (luckily we have none of that) the foam won't rot, but nonetheless I decided to go ahead and fix it the right way, before I paint the deck (Mac, do I hear you applauding? Or is that laughter? You may recall this area of the deck felt bouncy when you inspected the boat).
Here's the original condition with the cracks. Water would seep out if you pressed down on the surrounding area:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/04fbe0c304b8a4cd8ad59e80019f92b0.jpg)
Removal of the top layer of nonskid and gelcoat, via shallow circular saw cut. You can see the fiberglass below. The dark green chunks are the water saturated foam core:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/bd6553d39b9a27d8aa343a0ed4e34c4a.jpg)
Close-up. The grid lines show the pattern of foam blocks below. Notice how the grid is darker in the wettest areas:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/8d4029ce20c4aee5b303a6d263354abe.jpg)
Post surgery. Wet foam core cleaned out, new foam core meticulously assembled and laid in by Victor, the boatyard tech, who is a freaking artist with fiberglass repair:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/5DCBDBC3-01F5-4DDA-B998-77BD3B9E752F.jpg)
Next: laying in new glass on top, faired into the surrounding areas. Not sure yet what I'll do where the nonskid was removed. Hmm...
Good news from the boatyard: finished all the topsides prep work (de-waxing, epoxy patching/fairing of minor scratches and dings, sanding). Today I masked off the deck and bottom, and Victor sprayed first coat of epoxy primer. A red letter day! I had all the removable fiberglass parts (locker seats, helm seat, companionway hatch, sea hood) all prepped up too, so those were sprayed at the same time. Hurray!
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/cdb54adaa6659b704526c04f2f30c613.jpg)
Here's the finished product. Happiest day of my life: the fashionable-for-1988 brown cove stripe is finally gone. Will this be the week we get the finish paint on? Stand by for updates.....
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/4d35ec8caf1bb0e1bc68b04aaa5068ae.jpg)
She is looking great Wes - can't wait to see the finished product. But enough about your boat. What about that sweet 16 in the background of your last picture? ;-)
Visited Wes in Washington yesterday and saw firsthand the work that he is doing, unbelievable. Wes is doing the repairs the right way. I was very grateful that he took some time out of his rebuild to give me a sailing lesson on his C19 tied up nearby. By the way, the work that he did on his 19 is also first class. Wes's C-27 is going to be not only a solid boat but a real looker.
Thanks Wes.
regards charlie
Wow, amazing amount of work! She is going to be better than new when you're done, but I'm not sure she will even be recognizable as a Com-Pac without that brown stripe.
Nate - that's a risk I'm willing to take.
Charlie - ha, sailing lesson indeed. Careful what you say; someone may think you're serious .
Mark - that 16 is a beauty indeed. Charlie was amazed to hear she's a 1983. Not only has the yard finished your bottom paint, but your nice sail cover has mysteriously reappeared. Sorry for the scare! I took it down while we sprayed primer in the vicinity.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/71A4B2EA-B085-46A7-AFB2-04D0CA5300CB.jpg)[/URL]
Thanks for looking out for me Wes! If Charlie saw my boat's cabin, he would have no doubts about her age!
Keep up the good work Wes,
I like how he put that foam core back in, nice work! And I am glad you cut that all out, Might I suggest you do a non skid application like I did on my boat, with the Interlux Perfection with GripTex added instead of Intergrip.... It is a little more rough but great if the boat gets to bobblin around.
At any rate, When the boat is done it will look fantastic I am sure, and the one thing that is really cool about a freshly painted boat (complete redo) Is when someone comes by and asked when you took delivery of the new boat..... and you can proudly say "Its a 89", or in your case, 88.
We had that happen today, and my wife just smiled..... made all that hard work worth it for her, along with the niceness of the boat itself.
Mac
I can join in the pedestal disassembly club, although it was almost 18 years ago when I did the first. And I had it blasted with walnut shells and powder coated, which was a mistake; I don't know if the finish just didn't take or if it was too brittle but it fractured around the base bolt holes and has gotten ugly, so I'll be doing it again, soon!
Hey Moonlight: Will hijack just a little of Wes's thread, what do you plan on coating your pedestal with?
Wes is a heck of a sailor. Stuck in on the hard in Washington with no power because of storm damage, he kindly drove down to New Bern with his new main and we tried it out. It has two full battens at the top, two lower partial battens, two reef points and a foot rope. Super sail. I really liked how it worked and the fit was very good.
Has anyone tried all full fattens with a loose footed sail?
Thanks for the great sailing day Wes, will order wind earlier next time.
regards charlie
Charlie - the local loft built a new fully-battened main for our 27/2 ('97). That was before the trip to Maine and back. We like it, although it's hard to store those four battens on board when you put away the sail for the winter. It is not exactly "loose-footed", however. There are slugs in the bolt rope that keep it fairly tight to the boom.
Does that help any?
I just ordered a Doyle Stack Pack main system. They are re cutting my existing main and installing full battens. The main will be loose footed as the boom track will be used for the stack pack cover. I also ordered an asymmetrical spinnaker with it's own furling system. It will sit about a foot back from the jenny furler with a jack stay running down to the bow sprit stay connection. Once furled, it stores like a coiled up hose with the furler attached. Much easier to use than a dousing sock.
She's blue! Feels like a huge milestone to turn the corner and start adding something new instead of taking things off.
First, my primer coat (Interlux Epoxy Prime Kote) was a bust. It's the recommended primer for Perfection LPU, but goes on very thin, must be sanded between every coat (which removes most of the primer) and you can't build up the thickness in multiple passes. Victor, the genius boatyard tech, told me I should have used Awlgrip 545 primer which can be laid on thick in multiple passes and sanded once. I called Interlux to verify it was OK to use the Awlgrip under the Perfection topcoat, and he said "absolutely - it's a way better primer than ours." Nothing like honesty. So we sprayed the new primer and it was tons better. Live and learn.
My buddy Derlvyn spraying the Flag Blue Perfection. I'm very good at prep, but a chicken when it comes to pulling the trigger on that sprayer:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/bc5017ef3af7084e2dd627610be71f54.jpg)
Finished! Actually almost finished - I will sand with 400 and do one more coat:
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/wnewman/f7ef4cede412031c6f8dff541bfd263e.jpg)
Wes,
I was in the yard on Saturday and saw the painters at work. She is looking great!
Mark - sorry I missed you. While Derlvyn was spraying, I was racing to the Worst Marine in Morehead City to buy their last two quarts of blue paint. Miscalculated; oops. Hope your marina slip is working out. Did you notice there's another 27 tied up there? Charlie spotted it.
Wes
Wes,
I am surprised they didn't tell you that you could stack coats of Epoxy Prime Kote....... you wait until the epoxy has reached the finger print stage and then start coating again. I nailed 3 coats that way on my 19. Maybe they dont want consumers doing that...... I dont know. it is thin though when it goes on......
I am glad to see it coming along though, and it looks great in the pictures, I eagerly await (like the others and yourself I am sure) the finished product!
Keep up the good work!
Mac
Wes,
Yes the slip is fine, but my outboard would not run properly on Saturday, so no sailing unfortunately. There's something very wrong when a motor keeps one from sailing.
I have not seen the other 27. Which dock is it?
Dock B, I think, or maybe C. Standard factory white hull with the brown cove stripe that we know so well. Tan canvas dodger. Charlie spotted it from half a mile away.
Wes
Hey Wes, How is the boat going?
regards charlie
Charlie - Not much progress to report - I haven't done any work since the first week in May, on account of an adventure involving an emergency room, my small intestine, a surgeon, and ten days in Mr. Duke's Hospital. All is well now, and I look forward to hoisting the random orbit sander again very soon.
I did recently take my 19 out to Ocracoke on the Swan Quarter ferry and did some day sailing around the island. Three beautiful days in the 70s, and I only ran aground twice despite watching the depth finder like a hawk. Those are some treacherous waters - wouldn't want to be out on those waters in a storm (especially with the ferry bearing down on me).
Wes
Wow Wes, I'm just now catching up to this thread and the finish job on the 27 looks fabulous.
And thanks for the heads up on the Interlux primer. I'm getting ready to prime an epoxy composite skiff I'm building and was intending to use the same system. I may rethink that now. I need to get a little build because I need to spray a guide coat to find the last of the fairing imperfections before the last prime.
Wow, it's been three and a half years since I posted about my progress. A lot has happened during that time, and I'll fill in some new photos soon. But here's the news: it's done.
https://youtu.be/h6EWNaL8i70
That's one gorgeous lady Wes.