Hi All, After having my CP 16 in and out of the water several times I noticed water slowing seeping from the bottom front of the keel. We first tried some Marine tex but evidentially didn't go far enough under the keel. She's now been out for several months and finally dry. It can't be too bad because the carpet under the keel was never really wet, just a drop on my finger tips every day when I would check it. So how can we raise her off the trailer in order to inspect and repair the damage? Any advice will be really appreciated.
Pam
Skip has a popular way of lifting his 19, he uses a bottle jack with a 2 by 4 placed between it and the keel, The board probably extending past each side of the keep slightly to be on that hard chine.
The bunks could then be raised up to stable the boat, and then block the keel up so you can do the work so you arent relying on the bottle jack.
When you fix it, be sure to ground out the issue and chase out the problems.
Wet the area prior to filling with epoxy to provide a tie in.
Then fill with chopped glass and epoxy. The chopped glass can be made with scissors and any fiberglass, making a bunch of small cuttings to be mixed into the epoxy.
This will make a nice solid repair.
You can use 2 inch masking tape to hold the mixture in place and to push any air out. When cured, the 2 inch tape will peel off, then sand with 80 grit and finish with Interlux 2000 or Petit Protect (I prefer Interlux, not just because my marina sells it, but for its ease of use with the average person)
Paint with you favorite anti fouling :)
MacGyver
Totally agree with MacGyver........use epoxy with chopped glass. I tried a similar repair on Allure with marine TeX, and it was a mistake. Ended up redoing it with epoxy and glass mat strands the next year. I found the marine TeX never "stuck" and peeled it off with my fingers the next year. My boat has a bronze flange and drain plug on the side of the keel so I can drain it every winter when it get's pulled. I try not to let water stay in the keel over the winter. If it freezes, it expands and could crack something. In the case of a 27 and 25's it can crack the floor in the bilge box. My boat had a crack in the floor of the bilge box because I believe the previous owner had not taken the time to drain it and it froze, expanded upward, and cracked the floor in the bilge box.
Good luck...
Bruce
Allure
Thanks Bruce and Mac, I'm still not quite clear how to raise the keel off the trailer. Maybe Skip will chime in with more details and maybe a photo?
Where are you when I need you Skip?!?
Thanks
Pam
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee514/scotimier/AA86978A-7A76-4826-97CD-213DBA78B9FA-672-000000F721FDAA95.jpg)
This is how I lifted my Starwind 22 to repair the bunks, sorry its not the best picture. First I built a stack of cinder blocks near the center of the hull just off to one side of the keel slightly. Next, I placed some scrap 2x12 pieces on top of the cinder blocks to have a place to set up my floor jack. You'll have to play around with how many blocks and boards to use, depending on the height of the hull from the ground. Then I used a scrap piece of 4x4 a few feet long with a section of 2x8 on top of that to act as the lifting pad between my hull and the jack to spread out the load on the fiberglass hull. The cinder blocks and board base provided a nice firm foundation to lift from, and I also like to have the floor jack as close to the hull as possible because it is less likely to roll over and fall. Hope this helps!
O.K., Two things to look for in elevating the hull up and away from the trailer.
It would be a lot easier with those tiny Com Pac 16's then with my Com Pac 19.
~I have used two methods to raise the hull off the trailer. Come to think about it, both methods can be used.
~With a roll a round floor jack, loosen the 3/4 inch bolts and jack up the 2 inch x 2 inch supports holding the hull bunks.
~At some point the 2 x 2 won't be able to be lifted anymore.
~Does the trailer have rollers or a board running fore and aft with the keel? My way is to use the roller style trailer.
~Keep the bow pulled into the vee block. With jack stands, keep the trailer level port and starboard and fore and aft.
~Do not attempt raising the boat on 'rubber' tires. Nice and rock solid under pining's from jack stands.
~You need to use the space between the four rollers on the trailer to position the jack and 2 x 4 under the keel.
~I use a 2-1/2 ton floor jack on rollers and I slide the jack under the keel with a 10 inch long 2 x 4 . I guess at the balance point by trial and error.
~Note: The 10 inch long 2 x 4 runs fore and aft. Not port and starboard. It is all about spreading out the weight over that 10 inch 2 x 4 .
~Any longer then 10 inches I could not place the 2 x 4 between the rollers.
~O.K. once the balance point is found, jack up the boat from under the keel. Take a look at the vee block once in a while.
~Because the keel bunks have not been cut off the trailer [Like I did] the hull will need to be raised and extra 5 inches or so.
~No big deal.
~If it makes you feel better, a line can be attached from the stern cleats to the trailer as the hull is raised.
~Or long 2 x 4's can be placed under the rub rail to the ground as you go up.
~Or 6 inch x 6 inch wood blocks can be placed under the hull bunks.
Once you get the keel up in the air, grind clean to an absolutely clean surface, the area of the keel where the cracks are.
You tried Marine-Tex, O.K. grind all that off again. Make up about 1 quart of some epoxy. Mac can make suggestions. And use a roller and roll on a layer, fore and aft, port and starboard all across the bottom and up over the edges, covering all the cracks. Smooth it and paint it.
skip.
" MacGyver is right. use a bottle or scissor jack. A floor jack even with wheels will shift the boat over the trailer as it lifts at a angle not straight up. "
True. And what's wrong with that? The whole Com Pac-19 is balanced on the floor jack. Move the boat around with the jack or put the trailer back on the ground once the vee block strap and lines are free of the hull and move the trailer. Were talking just a few inches here.
Hi Skip, Thanks for that. I do have the board under the keel instead of the rollers, so I guess it might be a little more difficult. I'll have to go out and look again now that I know what I have to figure out. It's raining now, so probably tomorrow.
Thanks
Pam
The West System User Manual is a free publication that is loaded with great information.
Check out www.westsystem.com for details.
I also subscribe to their free publication titled Epoxyworks that features projects done by users of West Epoxy products.
Have fun.
Macgyver is right. use a bottle or scissor jack. A floor jack even with wheels will shift the boat over the trailer as it lifts at a angle not straight up.
Quote from: racer129 on March 25, 2013, 07:45:14 PM
Macgyver is right. use a bottle or scissor jack. A floor jack even with wheels will shift the boat over the trailer as it lifts at a angle not straight up.
I personally dislike bottle and scissor jacks, much easier to tip over while lifting than a floor jack because of their smaller footprint on the ground. I also try and avoid lifting anything too high for this reason, even with a floor jack. Whatever you choose to use be careful!
Quote from: Smier on March 26, 2013, 06:27:49 PM
I personally dislike bottle and scissor jacks, much easier to tip over while lifting than a floor jack because of their smaller footprint on the ground. I also try and avoid lifting anything too high for this reason, even with a floor jack. Whatever you choose to use be careful!
You bet I will. The prospect of doing it is a bit scary and intimidating!
Pam
Pam:
I don't know how to do this but maybe you could Skype with someone here and they could talk you through it. Not saying your'e not capable but be careful. Being in construction, I've seen what gravity can do if it's left to it's own devices.
Bob23
Just a simple tip:
As you raise the boat off the bunks, stuff boat cushions or extra life jackets between the bunks and the hull.
Then lower the boat onto the cushions and you will have a stable hull to work on.
That's how I did it and it worked fine. No drama.
Well it's been awhile since I asked advise about removing my Com-pac 16 from the trailer. Kind of scared me, having no experience with jacks. So decided to go to the local boat yard. In the meantime I've been removing as much glooped on paint as I can. A previous owner really did a terrible job. We eventually removed the guide boards to get a better look. Here is what we found after much scrapping:
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/P1050621_zps299cfae5.jpg)
This is a close up of an already repaired patch by a PO we uncovered.
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/P1050618_zps6ba75f45.jpg)
We drilled some holes to see if anything was still wet in the lower portion of the keel and most, not all, were dry. This chunk concerned me the most with the rust around it. I put a paper towel under it and after 24 hours it hadn't even soaked the towel. It was just a small piece, but it was damp.
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/P1050620_zpse2cfb561.jpg)
We're heading to the boat yard later today and plan to remove the rest of the paint and open and patch what we find. We've got Interlux 2000 to apply before we paint. Hope this won't become a nightmare.
Any advise from you all about the damage you can see will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Pamelina
Pamelina
I am on my phone and can't type much.......don't know why.....it just won't allow it
I can get this much out on here, DO NOT apply the 2000 on top of bottom paint t. Wish I could type more.....have more advice..... damn smart phones.....
Mac
A lot of work to do here. Lucky it's just a CP-16. Not too long thankfully.
Well start power sanding all the loose stuff off. That will take a week.
Then if the surface is dry, pick a slurry of your choice. Ask Mac for a pick.
Apply it, let it cure, sand to a fair line and shape it and paint the bottom.
As an alternative this little 1500 lb boat could be supported by four 2 x 4's placed up under the rub rail for each side. These 2 x 4's would need to be chained and bolted together so they can't spread. Put a block under the keel.
Actually, I'd consider just laying the boat on it's side in the grass and work on one side at a time. Easier on the back.
I saw a picture once of a CP-16 just sitting on this guys lawn. Nothing was touching the hull 'cept the grass under the keel. Just something to file away into the useless information file.
skip.
Hey Skip, believe it or not, most of the loose stuff is off. Still have to repair some blisters and sand where she was sitting on her bunks and glass over the keel damage. In the area where we chipped out a chunk into the cement, do we just fill it with epoxy and some glass? Mac, what's the "slurry" you'd recommend?
So she was blocked up at the marina today. They used a fork lift and set her on a metal frame with wood blocks. It was a little unnerving as she bobbled a bit on the lift, but now she secure and ready to work on. When they first set her down on the blocks her hull really oil canned halfway between the keel and the outer edge of the hull. They repositioned the blocks and all was OK. It was very disconcerting that she flexed like that though.
So here she is. More work tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow......
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/eccb0229aeff7bb2eee7bd3b81f436fc_zps0b4587c4.jpg)
Pamelina
Pamelina,
I would sand with 40 grit, take it down the best you can, remember that the white is gelcoat and you want to leave that the best you can.
Sand the water line as a fresh person (so like the beginning of the day) and that way you will be able to control the sander better. Tape off the water line so you can see if you start to sand the tape you have a second or 2 to get off the spot. That way you dont get into the "topsides"
Open your blisters with a carbide cutter bit, also called burr bits. Or a dremel, etc. you shouldnt have to dig too deep. Fill these with either a mixture of 105/206 (206 for your area with the heat being a issue, that will increase working time)
and use 404 filler, to a creamy peanut butter consistancy, that wont fall off the mix stick. spread that into the blisters and build it out a little so when you sand it smooth you will only sand the blister spot back down to the hull.
That keel needs better fixing. Use a small grinder to get that spot opened up, then use glass to fill it back out. That will be a solid repair. With me not being there to say exactly, it is hard to say exactly what I would do, so this is a general answer. After a short time of gelling of the epoxy (west system I can assure this can be done) use the 404 mixture to cover over the glass to make it fasster on the repair work. This gets a chemical bond instead of a mechanical bond.
Sand all with 40 grit to make working fast, as Interlux 2000, which is gonna be your water blocker, will cover a 40 grit scratch no problem.
What you fix right now, should not be a issue later.
If you use a grinder and attack other spots on the keel, just use glass in return to fill, that way you maintain the structure. I try to be on here daily, so if you get into something big take a pic and put it here, I can look at it and advise best I can from the provided pictures.
That oil canning, we call compression, will happen some but it was obvious they didnt have it in the right areas. These boats are built for dry stacking which is not a normal sailboat thing. Hutchins was smart about doing that, pretty cool what you can do with these boats. As long as you dont hear a bunch of crunching and cracking, all should be well.
I am not going to say my repair methods are perfect, but I do the job commercially, and fix a lot of boats, and In the 12 to 14 years now, not a single job has come back of mine due to failure on my part. I have instilled practices at our marina that few others abide by, and that the Reps of the products say is overkill, but we do it anyway, and our track record shows that is good.
I will help you anyway I can to advise you in a fashion to facilitate your repairs. Just take really good pictures ;D
Good luck, and I am standing by.
Mac
MacGyver has given some excellent advice.
The only thing I can add is that you might want to read the free WEST Epoxy publications.
They detail repairs with WEST products in a thorough but easy to understand way.
As MacGyver said, if you fix it right (as he has explained) it will stay fixed.
Hey Mac, thanks for the expert advise. We got a lot done today, even by taking a break from the mid-day heat. I'm here in FL and heat index was 100! We went back out from 5pm to 8pm and things went a little better. We're using the West products you mentioned. First time with the pumps for accurate measuring. Should have tried it long ago! And we got the slow hardener because of the heat.
So the hull and top part of the keel are looking pretty good. The front of the keel near the bottom looks pretty bad. I opened up a quarter sized hole and stuck my finger in. I could feel some dampness, no actual water, but I was able to pry out some black crumbly concrete. I used a tent stake to poke around in there and see how far I could go. I would say I got in about 2 inches and then it was hard. So Rick, my hubby and partner in all things messy is thinking about using one of those epoxy sticks to shove up in there, since the hole is facing almost downward and not exactly symmetrical inside. Then a finish with West epoxy and glass. Thoughts on that?
So far, this work has not been as bad as I thought. We just take turns with the sander and lots of breaks. And water!
Thanks for all the help
Pam
Make sure you wear hearing protection as well. Not only does it help save the hearing but also cuts down on fatigue.
I would probably use 403 on that hole. 404 is good, but 403 has a leaching capability that will allow it to still wet outits ssurroundings pretty well. Better adhesion.
404 is good and could be used also, just doesn't have that fiborous quality.
That hole could also be filled with (oddness alert!) A west epoxy and sand or mortar. Mixture. I have done both in other projects with amazing results. Cigarette ash trays with a west slurry of sand, and filled blocking cracks with west slurry of mortar.
Anyway, sounds like your on right track, keep up the good work, the hard part is almost done!
Mac
I would fill the hole with WEST Epoxy resin thickened to a relatively stiff consistency as MacGyver has recommended.
However, I would first clean the hole with acetone.
After the acetone has evaporated I would paint the inside with unthickened resin so it would soak into the concrete.
Next, before the unthickened resin kicks, apply the thickened resin to fill the hole.
That way the thickened resin will form a chemical bond with the unthickened resin so the plug will have strong adhesion in in the hole.
Then, to hold the plug in the hole while the epoxy kicks, I use celephane box tape.
That keeps the goo in the hole until it can become boat.
A timely article appeared in Boat U.S. June/July 2013
Hull RX: When and How to Repair Gelcoat Blisters by Don Casey.
Additionally OnLine Extra. http://www.BoatUS.com/magazine/crazing
For info on repairing crazing in gelcoat, aka spidercracks and stress cracks.
skip.
Thanks Mac and PAC, we got your advise just before heading to the boat yard via West Marine this morning. We have plugged
the holes as stated and are now waiting for it to harden. Rick is then going to use some glass cloth over the front and bottom of the keel. I know the marina fees are $$$ :P, but I'm glad we are able to work on her up high. Oh yeah, we sprayed the holes with acetone until all the gunk came out and the acetone ran clear. Hope it all works!
I'll be so glad to finally post photos of sailing instead of repair work!
Oh, what the heck, here's one from November at Cayo Costa, FL. A weekend with the West Coast Trailor Sailor Squadron.
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/6237c566be1c1f34b4979826f94fd29d_zps51f29e29.jpg)
And me....
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/2207dfefdc853290ae15ca66d434cceb_zpsdc889fef.jpg)
Hope to be sailing again soon!
Pam
OK, we did it! It was hot and tiring 4 days, but she's done! Here's Rick working away. I was working hard too, just no photos to prove it!
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/P1050643_zpse0f16e2b.jpg)
Tada: the after:
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/P1050646_zps18debd84.jpg)
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/P1050645_zpsc40787c6.jpg)
All that remains is the water line and the area where the chocks were. We can finish that in our back yard. Thanks so much for all the advise. It rained on and off during our time on the hard, but with a tarp in place to keep sun and rain off we were able to keep going and rest while things were curing. We had our little Casita camper in a campground not 5 min away from the yard, and 10 min away from West Marine.
What I didn't get was a photo of the worse hole we opened up in the very lowest part of the front of the keel, but after following your instructions the culprit is probably better than new.
Again thanks for the timely advise.
Pamelina & Ricky Boy
Pam:
Wow...that was quite a dragon you and Rick slayed. Congrats. But, how convenient that there are no photos of you working hard! We'll take your word for it. Thanks for sharing the details of this keel repair adventure. I hope not to have to do that on my 23!
Glad you'll be sailing soon.
Bob23
Geee Pam, nice bottom.
skip.
Great work!
Looks great, and is a great accomplishment to have done it yourself.
Too bad you live far away from me, I might put ya to work ahhahahahhahahahahh
I am glad the repairs went well, and glad you asked for advice before just throwing a bunch of stuff in it.
Mac