I thought yesterday was going to be the day, but I started out late and wound up spending my sailing hours stepping the mast and getting my CP 16 ready for sailing at a moments notice ---- errrr almost, but defiinitely not a half hour any more. Here's why; I took the rest of the time shopping for and ultimately signing on for "yard storage" on the trailer at Blue Pelican Hernando Marina. On a month by month basis, I pay $85.00 including sales tax to keep my boat rigged up so that all I have to do is essentially hook the trailer to my little Dodge Dakota, drive 100 feet across the street to the public boat lauches, dip her in the canal, put whoever or whatever need to go into the boat...into the boat, start the motor, motor for about 10-15 minutes out of the canal to deep enough water to veer from the channel, point her into the wind and hoist the sails. It sounds involved in a step by step format, but its so much easier than having to set everything up and take it all down again each time I sail. I just didn't see myself doing much sailing if I had to go through an hour of set up and take down each time in addition to hauling the boat 15 miles. Now, I just have to remember to drive the truck and not my car, so I can trailer it a few hundred feet round trip (no kidding!).
So, I spent 2 hours scrooing with the little 4 h.p. Yamaha, including pulling the fuel pump diaghrams off and cleaning them and spraying CRC in the carb, removing the spark plug, doing the same and countless pulls before hand. I got it running by about 2:30, about two hours before high tide, with wind at about 20 knots and small craft advisories. I put my orange life jacket on and took off from the dock. The waterway I have to deal with in Hernando County, requires nearly a mile of motoring to get to a sailable location. Even then I'm told I'm risking hitting rocks unless I go further west before exiting the channel. I'm not sure these guys understand the skinny draft of my 16, but they are naturally cautious with other's safety.
Finally, I anxiously hoisted the jib then raised the main. I was a little nervous even with my life jacket on in 3.5 feet of water, thinking this could be an ugly experience as I walked forward to untangle the jib from a dock line gone astray, in order to free it. Pleasantly, I had the rudder locked in so I was "turning" hard to starboard and therefore was not turning at all, but just blowing sideways a bit as I messed around on the foredeck. I let the jib flap a bit and having put about a couple rolls (boom) to reef the main at the dock, raised the sail and secured the haliard to the mast cleat. this whole time I was grabbing the mast for dear life, fearing I would be in for a violent surprise. Fortunately, it was all predictable in hindsight and when I sat down and at the helm at pulled the sheet in for the jib and then the main, it was as though I had stepped on the accelerator and the flacid, flapping sales turned into wings as I turned the rudder to approximate a starboard beam reach. I was surprised at how fast I seemed to go, but was too concerned to look at my android based gps for speed readings. I'm sure it was only 4.5 or so. Afterall, the hull speed isn't great on any sailboat, let alone a Compac 16. I felt the wind energy and with my main at probably 75% of its non reefed area, it was all the thrill I could handle. A few times I let the sheet out a bit in fright, feeling overwhelmed by the heeling and unstoppable power had it not been for the sheet in hand and my quickly learned knowledge that I could halt a breezy onslaught by turning windward if only just for a couple seconds to regain a feeling of control and defer capsizing Shad'O.
Conceptually, when sitting in my comfy chair with my laptop, I realize with maybe 18 inch waves in the shallow water (3-5 feet) where I was sailing, a reefed main and 20 knot winds, I couldn't likely capsize my boat if I tried, but I have to admit I was a little uneasy with the boat heeling over to within maybe 12 inches of the rail touching water. Not so impressive, I'm sure, but to feel it happen at the time, I can see its an acquired taste and one that I would feel more comfortable with knowing in what conditions the boat would remain upright it. I did notice that as the boat reached a "maximum" heel, it really didn't seem to go any faster. In fact, to me, it seemed that the boat was fastest with a relatively small amount of heel. I would like to know if that is characteristic of the CP 16 or just my own imagination.
On the way back down the channel, essentially a somewhat land sheltered downwind, I sailed for a while, but with much less excitement than sailing on a reach. I passed my own test to haul down the sails long before it would have become a concern in the channel. I do realize the need to rig a downhaul for the hanked on jib. Going up front doesn't suit me well and is rather dangerous in my opinion as a single handed sailor. Of course, I performed this excercise in 2.5 feet of water where grounding was my greatest fear, not man overboard.
Another conclusion I arrived at is that I either need some verbal instruction or this boat is not one to tack without doing a reverse circle to change directions in a gybing fashion. Perhaps its that I was to scared (or cautious) to turn her hard over while at full speed to get through the windward points at which she just won't point. Any input on that or hints that will help me improve my virgin skills as a sailor are appreciated. Thus far, I can say, I am enjoying sailing and I like my current setup at the Marina.
I hope this brings back some good memories for some of you experienced guys. Perhaps you can think of when you first started sailing in a strong wind. I thought I did pretty darn good for a first solo experience. It definitely has me going back to sail again in the next day or two.
Good Karma to you. Sounds like a fun and exciting experience. The 16 is a surprisingly seaworthy little craft. When we were sailing our 16 we would get water over the rail and still feel she was going to take care of us novices. She trained us well and we learned to trust her. We are sure you will love sailing her in all wind conditions, as she feels like a much bigger boat. We definitely agree that a simple down haul rigged to the headsail makes sailing the 16 much safer. Even Admiral B, who happens to love to work the bow, wasn't a fan of 16's bow in anything above calm conditions. Either a downhaul or a cheap homemade furler really make the 16 a single-handers dream.
Mike and B
WhiteShad-O,
Sounds like you had an interesting day and learned a lot about your boat and yourself. And, that's the way it should be! A couple more times and you will begin to get the "feel" of the boat and will also notice that confidence in your sailing ability will be growing.
With regard to "heel" and boat speed, most boats sail well (fastest) to windward with a slight heel to them, around 15 degrees. Beyond that point, increasing heel just pushes a larger bow wave out of the way and actually will slow the boat down. Most sailors talk about a boat sailing best "on her lines", "on her feet" or almost upright to windward. That's why we shift human ballast, if available, on a smallish boat to counteract the increased pressure on the sails due to high winds and get her back on her lines. However, when sailing solo you have to rely on sail control and reefing either main, jib, or both depending on how your boat responds to wind and sea conditions.
To sail through a tack, make sure you have good speed through the water before throwing the helm over to begin the maneuver. Speed is necessary for effective rudder control through the tack. You might find that sometimes you have to bear off SLIGHTLY from close hauled to a close reach to build up sufficient speed before executing a tack. Practice will indicate which technique will work for your 16. I sometimes have to coax my 17' Sun Cat through a tack as well.
Be safe out there and continue to have fun! Remember, God does not subtract from man's allotted time the hours spent sailing.
capt_nemo
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/CPYOA/Sun%20Cat%20Headsails/friskyjib51.jpg)
Eric:
Really enjoyed your story. I liked the part about remembering the truck. While I haven't forgotten that, I did forget to bring the boom along while rigging my boat for a spring launch one year...I heard about that more than a few times!
When my 23 is in a cranky mood and doesn't feel like tacking through, I'll sometimes backwind the jib halfway through...seems to help bring the bow around. I take it you're sailing in tidal waters as I am and depending on the current speed and direction, it'll have an affect on how easily I can come about. And I agree completely with Capt Nemo's tacking advice. You'll get the feel for what works best after a while.
That is a well spend 85 bucks. To just hook up, put her in the water and go is well worth the money. Whatever gets you sailing faster and easier is hard to argue against. I keep my 23 on a mooring here in NJ. Too much of a cheapskate to go to a marina. If I had to trailer the boat to a ramp everytime I wanted to sail, I don't know if I would.
Best to you...what is your yachts name?
Bob23
Good on ya, mate. I'm proud to have been your initial teacher! :D
BobL
WhiteShad-O says; " I did notice that as the boat reached a "maximum" heel, it really didn't seem to go any faster. In fact, to me, it seemed that the boat was fastest with a relatively small amount of heel. I would like to know if that is characteristic of the CP 16 or just my own imagination. "
She will sail fastest with very little heel. It's not your imagination.
Keep in mind that as the mast heels over towards the water, that the triangle shape of the sails, as they lay flatter to the wind, actually present less sail area to the wind...hence the pressure to heel the hull over becomes less and this limits the heel as more 'air' pops over the top-o-sails. It's about the same as letting the main sheet out. Air spills out and less 'drive' is available. Having said that it took me 5+ years of trying to dip my cockpit combing into the icy waters of Green Bay in the CP-19 ON JUST THE 155% head sail lapper. There was so much wind that I would not have been able to handle two sails. I laughed so hard I just about passed out. I had my land lubber sister-in-law as a passenger. She didn't know if she should scream or laugh till she looked at me. Then she relaxed.
Sometime along the line you'll be able to do wing to wing, with the boom about 90 degrees to the fore/aft centerline of the hull on one side and the jib 90 degrees to the other side. Boy I kind-a-like that because you don't feel the wind so much on your face, but yet the boat seems to be surfing, speeding up going 'down hill' on the waves and slowing when going 'up hill'. It's just fun. Looking astern that wake seems to be just flying by and things are much more quiet. It takes a lot of attention to hold the course and not collapse either of the two sails, all the while being aware that an unintentional jibe might sweep the boom across the cockpit. They have preventers for the main sheet for that but not on my CP-19.
You asked about the first time in heavy conditions. Before Steve [Wind Rover] or me [Comfort & Joy] bought our CP-19's we sailed with Gerry who had maybe 15 years in his CP-19, Peanut Butter. Out in a blow with waves so high I could not see over the top of any of them when we were down in the trough. And when on top, it was darn right freightfull looking down...but you know...after a while it was delightful. That is until we came about while on top of a crest. Steve and me thought this was curtains...but no problem she answered the rudder's input and smartly spun around. Steve and I were as useful as bumps on a log. Well we were movable ballast. Some what helpful. But Gerry made us both sail her on that day. I was hooked.
In my mind I still see the waves over my head.
skip.
"to untangle the jib from a dock line gone astray"
You may want to remove them while sailing. Last thing you want is a line getting tangled around your prop when you are motoring past some lee rocks.
"In fact, to me, it seemed that the boat was fastest with a relatively small amount of heel. I would like to know if that is characteristic of the CP 16 or just my own imagination. "
Assuming the 16 sails like the 23 (and most say they do) this is accurate. Small amount of heel keeps more power in the main, too much heel and you are spilling too much wind and crabbing to leeward to much.
"is that I either need some verbal instruction or this boat is not one to tack without doing a reverse circle to change directions in a gybing fashion. Perhaps its that I was to scared (or cautious) to turn her hard over while at full speed to get through the windward points at which she just won't point. "
Gybing is actually more dangerous than tacking. With tacking the worst that can happen is getting stuck in irons (boat stops pointing into the wind). With a gybe you have to be much more careful with the boom (don't want to find out why it is called a boom) and coordinate pulling in the boom and letting it out quickly as you perform the gybe.
As far as tacking goes get up your speed and then push then slowly push the rudder over to take you through the turn. Don't go over too far with the flat blade rudder or it will stall and kill your tack. In high winds if you think you are going to get caught in irons let the jib backwind and that will help push the bow through the tack. Basically start your tack and don't touch the jib sheet. Once the bow points through the wind the jib will fill on the windward side and push the bow to leeward. Once you get over enough to get the main filled and powering the boat again you can release the windward jib sheet and sheet it in on the leeward side.
Keep practicing. It will get easier and far more natural. I was very uncomfortable single handing my 23, now it is a piece of cake.
Shawn
Thanks for all the feedback. I get excited hearing from others.....it puts be back in the water in my mind, visualizing the next time I get to try some new (to me) techniques.
Being well aware of why they call it a "boom", I did an unintentional gybe at least once when trying to sail wing on wing, once and another time as I gave up on tacking through the waves, which were off of the wind about just enough (35 degreess perhaps) to keep me from crossing through the tack from the port side. The wing on wing not only looks cool, but as one of you mentioned, quiets everything to a downhill ride without the feeling and sound of being on the North Sea (a gross exaggeration from an overexcited new sailor). I don't know if my gps on my Android is all together accurate, but at one time, if only for an instant the "speedometer" indicated 6.5 mph. Is that possible if the hull speed is only around 4.5? My guess is that since the indication is speed over the ground, its like flying with the wind....airspeed versus groundspeed. So, if I have a two mile an hour current (gulf of Mexico) and 4.5 hull speed through the water, they combine to give the 6.5 indicated over ground speed. Is my synopsis correct, guys?
What is the maximum consistent wave height and wind speed that any of you guys would dare (or possibly even enjoy) sail your 16 or comparable sailing boat in? My understanding is that if this boat capsizes, its not going to right itself so it may be a final deal in 62 degree water even with a life jacket, which I have been wearing by the way.
Eric
Good capsize question, Eric...I don't think I've ever read or heard of a 16 capsizing? ( Or, for that matter a 23) Maybe in the big ocean? I am not saying it's impossible, just saying I've never heard of it.
BobL
"You asked about the first time in heavy conditions. Before Steve [Wind Rover] or me [Comfort & Joy] bought our CP-19's we sailed with Gerry who had maybe 15 years in his CP-19, Peanut Butter. Out in a blow with waves so high I could not see over the top of any of them when we were down in the trough. And when on top, it was darn right freightfull looking down...but you know...after a while it was delightful. That is until we came about while on top of a crest. Steve and me thought this was curtains...but no problem she answered the rudder's input and smartly spun around. Steve and I were as useful as bumps on a log. Well we were movable ballast. Some what helpful. But Gerry made us both sail her on that day. I was hooked.
In my mind I still see the waves over my head.
skip."
This is an example of where your seamanship skills are important as well as "little things" which are really big things: using correct knots, checking clevis pins, inspecting the rigging and fittings when stepping the mast and before any passages, having a ship-shape boat "no spaghetti in the cockpit", keeping the companionway boards in place and secured, latching and securing hatches and ports. Most of the time the boat can take the weather better than we can but it is our responsibility to minimize any weak links, etc. This can go on and on . . . but it is our job to maintain the integrity and safety of the boat.
" My understanding is that if this boat capsizes, its not going to right itself so it may be a final deal in 62 degree water even with a life jacket, which I have been wearing by the way. "
Who said that? Button her up like a cork. One, your not going to capsize, keep her into the sea and wind. Even if your going to go where you don't want to go. Stay away from the shore till things settle down. Live to sail back. You could broach and roll if you get her sideways and she's hit by a wave. Don't do that. Here is where a gas engine might do better then an electric motor. Don't be afraid to motor and sail at the same time for control. Stay with the boat. They will find the boat before they find you.
There was a guy sailing in Alaska who wrote on Small Craft Advisor that his top-o-mast on his CP-19 came with in 10 foot of the water when a gust of wind rolled off the mountain and she popped right back up. I'm guessing it's the same for a CP-16.
If three are on board and one goes over. Somebody skipper the boat. THE OTHER ONE ON THE BOAT POINTS TO AND NEVER STOPS POINTING TO THE ONE IN THE WATER. If your the pointer that's your only job. Don't toss life rings...nothing...just point.
It's the 'Rule of 50'
50 years old
50 deg F. water
50 minutes before your dead.
Warmer water, longer time.
Younger, longer time,
Older or colder, shorter time.
Don't forget the uncontrollable inhalation of air when instantly immersed in freezy water. If the mouth is under water your sucking in water.
skip.
I don't know of anyone who has fully turtled a 16, but I'm confident it would right itself no problem if the hatch boards are in, and I'm still 90% confident it will right itself even with the hatch open.
I also had troubles tacking my 16 in high winds and waves, but with the jib up it usually wasn't a problem. As others have said, let the jib backfill a bit before releasing the sheet. Also, you need good speed going into the tack, which is sometimes a problem both due to reduced speed from the reefed sails, and then the waves pushing the bow the wrong direction. It just takes some practice, and newer sails with a foiled rudder should help. With my old baggy sails and flat rudder there were simply times when I couldn't tack and would just gybe, but you end up losing a lot of ground doing that if you're trying to work your way to windward.
" My guess is that since the indication is speed over the ground, its like flying with the wind....airspeed versus groundspeed. So, if I have a two mile an hour current (gulf of Mexico) and 4.5 hull speed through the water, they combine to give the 6.5 indicated over ground speed. Is my synopsis correct, guys?"
Exactly! You can also get little speed bumps if you are surfing on a wave.
Shawn
Conversely, if you are going AGAINST the current as opposed to WITH the current your speed on GPS (over ground) will read 2.5! (4.5 - 2.0= 2.5)
Those of us who have experienced AGAINST strong current passages over long distances can well remember the algebraic sums as well as the frustrations associated with such experiences.
One offshore approach to Charleston Harbor in nasty weather took me 10 hours to make the final 30 nautical miles AGAINST waves and current. Fortunately, my Island Packet 35 was well built for the challenge, and the pounding!
Then again, progress AGAINST strong current in light air can be absolutely positively nervewracking!
capt_nemo
As far as getting knocked down and righted. Some define a knock down as having the mast in the water. In that case if your ports hatches are open and the boat gets a lot of water below you are probably going to sink, Our 23 has no flotation. Over the last 17 years we have had two instances where the boat went over far enough for the ports to be partially submerged.
One instance occurred just leaving the Gulfport Fl channel - a high wind gybe gone wrong- the main sheet snagged on something and it took long seconds to release it. The other was on Tampa Bay sailing a nice reach in winds of 10-15 on a bright sunny day. We were on a cruise and having lunch when a micro burst from nowhere laid us over-ports in the water- It happened so fast neither of us spoke - I with a mouth full of pizza - didn t have time to release the main. In both cases when the force was removed the boat quickly popped right back up. It would take a lot of water on board to cause it to flounder. In an unrelated incident we once had water ankle deep in the cabin but the boat sailed normally.
Heeling angles depend on the boat and sail condition. With our old main 25 degrees was the sweet spot - With our new main I suspect we won't have to heel as much. -- Bob23 have you noticed that? Matt
This is true, Matt. With the new sails, more of the force is turned into forward motion because the foil shape of the sail is maintained. Think of looking at the sails from above. An old sail has the center of effort moved (was forward)Aft (changed by TG knowing exactly what Bob meant to say) because they have stretched and/or blown out. ( I might be incorrect on the term "center of effort" but you guys know what I mean.) A newer sail with the proper shape looks more like a profile of a airplane wing. Forward motion on the wing produces lift. Forward movement of the wind over a good sail produces lift also but on a boat is translated out to forward movement of the boat.
She seems to like about 10-15 degrees of heel. With my old sails, much time was spent fighting the boat while she tried to heel. It wasn't her fault, really, she was just reacting to that old bedsheet mainsail. After I treated her to new sails, unless I didn't reef early enough, the over-heeling was eliminated and she pointed higher, tacked easier and moved faster.
I haven't gotten knocked down as you have, Matt, but early in our relationship, I did go over to about 45 degrees. She took care of me. We're still in love.
Bob23
I think I must be obsessive compulsive. All of the experience (a full 6 times out on my 16) in my 5 week sailing career and I got it in my mind I wanted a bigger vessel. I loved sailing from the first time I did it, much like flying, but without the fear of gravity overcoming the ability to fly. Like I said, I couldn't help myself....so, I went and bought an 85' Catalina Capri 22 tonight. Bob will probably recognize this one as its only two boats east of his in Dunedin Marina. Its absolutely stunning, stereo, vhf, gally, practically new standing and running rigging and no soft spots or crazing. It even has beautiful sail covers and newer gyb furling running to the cockpit. It needs a bottom job, but I've arranged to outhaul it after sailing it to my newly arranged slip in Hernando County. For what I paid, I had to have it and can't wait to anchor out, put a CD in the player, turn on the lights and just camp a bit. Can you tell I'm an excitable kind of guy?
So, I guess I won't be on the Compac site once I sell my 16 with its 4 h.p. motor. I hope the guys on the Catalina site are as nice as the Compac guys (gals not excluded) seem.
I love to hear of experiences you experienced guys have, regardless of what you sail or the size. I have to admit, hearing about looking down from the top of a tall wave may have me so full of fear once I park the boat I might not recover my interest. Of course, I don't know what a sailboat of any kind will really take and have me remaining in a boat rather than in the water. Thank for the tips too to all who put forth their experiences.
Eric Klee
Hudson, Fl
Eric:
You're certainly welcome to stop back and relate your sailing adventures here at the site. We all love sailing; some choose to sail other boats but the bottom line is we all love to be on the water and enjoy sharing experiences. So stop back from time to time. Let us know how the Capri 22 sails in comparison to a CP 16.
Gravity. True, it seems more evident when your flying. I don't fly but my brother in law does and I've been up with him a few times. While rowing a homebuilt boat (my first) in Barnegat Inlet in the fog and in fairly cold water some years back, this though crossed my mind: "Here I am in this cold water that could kill me. Gravity, which is undefeatable, is trying to drag me to the bottom resulting in my death and the only thing preventing that is the bouyancy of this boat, the first one I've built". It was a sobering moment. When you understand that while gravity is trying to drag you down, bouyancy is trying to lift you up. Hooray for bouyancy!!!!
Same with a plane but more so. Without forward motion, down you go.
Bob23
Eric,
I also have been bitten by the "bigger boat" syndrome. I was given an H23 earlier this year and my CP-19/II is still punishing me with pleas to the weather gods to conspire to keep me from sailing. I think she may be starting to forgive me, because the temps are supposed to soar into the 70's here in SW VA this weekend.
The 23 is almost too big to sail here in the upper end of SML so the 19 remains my first love. But, MAN! does the 23 sail in the open big end waters.
The Admiral's broken ankle is mending pretty well - she now has a Boot. It's aBOOT time she got back on the water sailing - hopefully this week end
TG
ABOOT time? You're killin' me!!!! Glad she's on the mend.
I guess we all get the bigger boat itch from time to time but, I'd have to say that for the way I sail, my 23 is perfect. I like to think of the 23's as a mini-Flicka. I think the key is to define exactly what kind of sailing you plan to do, and get a boat that fits. I like my 23- I can go for a quick daysail, grab a nice sunset sail for a few hours after work, or go for a weeks cruise, (something I've yet to do.) She seems to perform ok in light air but is built stout enough to take some rough weather. Really a great boat! And, contrary to her reputation, she is no slouch although, as we all know, pointing is not her strongest suit.
Bob23
Well Erik
You sure are a fast mover. I'm glad you moved up to a bigger boat. I do know the one you bought here. I have never seen it move. Glad she found a sailor that'll use her. Please keep us posted on your adventures!
BobL
Quote from: bob lamb on December 31, 2012, 10:44:25 AM
Good capsize question, Eric...I don't think I've ever read or heard of a 16 capsizing? ( Or, for that matter a 23) Maybe in the big ocean? I am not saying it's impossible, just saying I've never heard of it.
BobL
"Compac 16's go down by the bow."
That is a quote that I got today from Jay at Lake Fairview Marina in Orlando Florida.
I said "What?"
He repeated "Compac 16's go down by the bow."
After a pause I said, "Um, and do you know this first hand?"
Jay nodded yes with a slight sheepish grin.
Jay went on to tell me that he managed to turtle one of the marina's rental CP-16s on Lake Fairview. He said that a natural air pocket developed in the aft half of the boat, which kept the CP-16 from sinking to the bottom of Lake Fairview (apparently management frowns on this). Jay assumed that it was a natural design feature.
He went on to say that, based on this experience, if he had a CP-16 model with the open-able locker in the aft cockpit, that he would be certain to seal it tightly.
Lake Fairview is just over one mile at its widest, with no additional fetch due to residential housing. I know from sailboarding there years ago that the winds are always flukey. No, I did not ask him how he managed to turtle a CP-16 on a lake that small. I have done worse myself.
Floyd in Tampa Bay