I just thought I would post up the results of my recent test of my MotorGuide 30 lb thrust trolling motor on my '83 CP 16, for anyone wishing to evaluate what to used. I went out in winds that were around 20 mph or so, and gusts up to about 30 mph. It was fine for getting us away from the dock and motoring into the wind to raise the sails. At the end of the day we dropped the sails about a mile or so from the dock, and headed right into the wind. Several times the wind caught the bow and turned us, and the motor couldn't keep us on course. You have to take into account that there was about 500 lbs of passengers in the cockpit, which made the bow sit higher and lighter. Concerned that we were going to be unable to come back into the wind, I eventually went up in the bow with a paddle, and I used it to keep the bow from turning off the wind. With a lot of work we made it back to the calm water around the dock. So, overall it is fine for calm or light to moderate winds, but I need more power for winds and currents. I could have made do with better planning - for example, sailing upwind of the dock (plenty of space to do so), dropping the sails, and then motoring back with the wind. However, I wanted to put it to the test. I have a 4.5 hp gas outboard for when I need it.
See, There is a reason why Boeing 747's don't fly across the oceans on battery powered motors.
Unless it's a fork lift battery low in the keel, I'd gas her.
Sure electrics work. Not saying they don't. But have a back-up plan. And it's not a paddle.
We had a paddle on our Star Boat.
I have a paddle tucked along side my vee birth cushion against the bulkhead on the CP-19. And that's where it hopefully will stay.
skip.
My experience with my electric trolling motor is similar. I use it in lakes but the few times I have gone into the saltwater I make sure to have my trusty, completely rebuilt and restored 1954 Johnson on board.
:P Hey folks, don't give up on electric motors just yet! I have a torqueedo 500 on my 16 and it does a great job. Need to have a spare battery stored down below and the solar charger. Is it expensive: yes, but I don't ever have to mess with gasoline again....just think that the concept, though not perfect, fits in better with the whole idea of sailing
I really like the Torqueedo motors although I have and use a 1988 Nissan 8hp 2 stroke on my 1985 23/2. It has been, and continues to be a faithful motor. But from what I've seen of the Torqueedos, they are fabulous and, although expensive, I'm sure our free enterprise system will see prices drop as the competion offers thier version, just like when the Fein Multimaster tool patent expired, every tool maker and thier brother started making them.
For a boat that doesn't need to make long passages under power, a Torqueedo would be great. I've had occasion to motor for over 2 hours into tide and wind so I don't know if even the Torqueedo's would do that. Maybe they would!
The quiet ride would be enough to win me over! Last time I motored for 2 hours, it almost drove me mad! I started to imagine songs in the motor noise; everything from the theme song from Andy Griffith to Motzarts concerto #2 in D minor to Queen's "We will rock you".
bob23
Conditions do dictate what motors are prudent, I have used my trusty 55lbs thrust MinnKota Endura with two CP 16's and a MFG 19. I boat on very protected inland lake in western PA. I've also seen boat motors advertised that run on propane. Anyone know about the propane ones just curious?
Natural gas is 1000 btu/cubic foot. To burn a ratio of 10 parts air to 1 part fuel.
Propane gas is 2600 btu/cubic foot. To burn a ratio of 10 parts air to 1 part fuel.
Gasoline is 180,000 btu per gallon. To burn a ratio of 14.7 air to 1 part fuel.
If we were talking about fork lifts for example, a smaller orifice would be needed when using Propane and not Natural. The more btu's in the fuel, the smaller the hole.
So can't use a gasoline carb. Dah!
As to Bob23's comment below...Once in a while a liquid cooled twin engine aeroplane flew into the Door County Cheryland Airport where I work seasonally. It was a diesel. Sounded 'funny' but went like stink! Just jumped off the ground. Engine shut down was instant! No chugging to a stop. I wonder if the pilot has to pay the 'road tax' on his fuel? And is the fuel the correct color? Died red or natural green..? The German's make that air cooled diesel farm tractor.
I still like that Briggs and Straton air cooled lawn mower motor, 5 hp, out board with F-N-R gear box for about $800. If I ever find one used for the right price, I'd try to scrap together the scratch.
DA42-TDI Twin Star aircraft
by Paul Crowe on 7/29/2005, in Alternative thinking, Diesel Engines.
With all of our posts on the Star Twin 1200 TDI sportbike you might start thinking we believe turbo diesel is a good idea. More reading on the EAA website shows the DA42-TDI Twin Star twin engine aircraft getting FAA certification. Turbo diesels in an airplane! Lately, diesels have been shattering everyone's preconceived notions of what diesels are all about. Diesels are definitely growing fast. Cars, trucks, buses, motorcycles, atvs, boats, airplanes ... what's next?
skip.
At the Maine Boatbuilders Show a few years ago, someone there had a diesel outboard prototype...don't remember the manufacturer but the idea sounded strange. I didn't get the weight but I'd expect it to be heavy.
Until my Miss Nissan, size 8 heads for the outboard graveyard, she and I get along fine. Starts first pull, doesn't drink too much, and has never let me down. When she leaves this world, I'll probably get a Tohatsu 4 stroke or look for a used Nissan 2 stroke.
bob23
Bob,
Yanmar made a diesel outboard. Very expensive,loud and heavy though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pu4RJmevrQ
If you are ever up my way you are welcome to hear the Tohatsu on the 23. It was much quieter than the Johnson 8hp 2 stroke/2 cylinder that it replaced.
Shawn
I have been using a Torqueedo Cruise 2 for a couple of years now on my C-23, and am generally happy with it. I had to send it back to the US factory rep to have the soft start circuit board replaced (under warranty). We use the outboard for coastal cruising, including a 5 day trip in the Keys last year, but I have a dual bank of AGM batteries arranged in 24VDC (this is a bit complicated- but the batts are in a watertight keel cavity, replacing the concrete ballast- there is a post on this if you do a search). The Torqueedo is bit noisier than one might expect at higher RPM. The key to extended range is to settle down and not plan to power along faster than you would travel with the sails up in lighter winds (this number, for me, is 2.8 knots, at which point the motor draws approx 15 to 17 amps at 24VDC). I crank it up a little if we are just going out to Shell Island for the weekend. The engine is very light (less than 40 lbs), is therefore easy to raise lower, and my wife/daughter have absolutely no problem starting it on the first pull, so to speak. Particularly notable is that nobody complains about the smell of gasoline or fumes anymore!!!
The smaller Torqueedo's and larger travel models have built in Li power packs. I borrowed and tried one of these and was unhappy with the torque available (I didn't try the 1007 though). The Cruise 2 has adequate power for the 23 although I don't guess it has quite as much power as my Mercury 6HP 4-stroke (which I still have in the shed).
If I had to do it over again I would just mount (2) AGM 4 or 8D's under the companionway (lake sailors or those not planning on extended cruising may get by with (2) grp 31's but you would need to pay close attention to your e-meter). Lead acid is also fine but you would need to make to make these readily accessible to monitor/water them. The more ambitious may choose to mount one of the inboard electric drive systems (I think that Hutchins was going to try this on a 23 at one point). The perpherals needed include a 24VDC smart charger, e-meter/shunt, various fuses and of course larger wiring, DC-DC converter for 12VDC, etc. The installation may require some profession assistance depending on your electrical inclination.
My opinon, for what it's worth: Does the electric option make sense economically? Certainly not. Is it practical? Yes, but of course it all depends. I personally think that a lake sailor or weekender, in particular, might consider the electric option.
Regards,
Chris
Thanks for the input, I figured in high winds mine would be useless. I can't remember if my MinnKota is a 30 or 35lb thrust, but irregardless, is it the end all solution? No, but in mild to moderate wind on small protected lakes where the forecast is good, it is a great and cheap alternative. I typically only need to motor a couple hundred yards at best, and so far it has done the job well, even in moderate winds with my 16. I also have my 4hp 2 stroke for larger lakes and that's what I plan on using for the larger lakes or bay trips. I also plan on taking the electric as a backup/last resort/before you break out the oars alternative... The batteries there already, and it doesn't weigh much. If it saves me a from a lot of rowing, or even some of the rowing, it's a win win situation should the gas motor die. Also for me, it only cost me around $120 because I already had the battery sitting unused on the trailer tongue of my camper. One thing you all may have missed on the electric side of the argument, on a perfectly calm, clear, and moonless night, it was much more romantic taking a midnight cruise around the lake under the stars with my wife without the 2 stroke puttering and stinking away! Smelly exhaust is no longer a turn on for the misses like it was when we were teenagers...
My plan is to use the trolling motor on inland lakes when the conditions are mild to moderate. On Lake Erie or other big lakes, I'll take the 4 hp, and I can stow the trolling motor in one of the berths. I just put on a swim ladder, and I plan to find a way to mount the trolling motor on it if needed. With the sails, gas outboard, trolling motor, and paddles, I'll have four ways to move the boat. Maybe I'll mount oars, too (just kidding).
I used to row my old SeaPearl 21 with 9 1/2' fir lifeguard boat oars. Oldies but goodies. In calm wind and no opposing tide, it worked fine...I could make about 2 knots. Kinda hard into an opposing tide but then I like to row! I eventually bought a Tohatsu 3.5 hp. More then enough for that light boat.
bob23
I've taken to sculling my hard dingy around sometimes (nothing fancy just using one of the regular oars and an additional oarlock on the transom) and added a tracking keel aft. I think that, on the 16, sculling should work well for those moonlight trips around the lake, that Smier referenced in his post. Think gondolier, I suppose. Beats sculling with the rudder (which can't be done gracefully). I think that there was an earlier post somewhere about sculling but can't find it now.
Regards,
Chris
I think it's a mistake to relegate all alternate power motors (Torqueedo electric, Lehr propane, etc.) to the trash bin based on our experience with trolling motors. I agree that a traditional trolling motor is not adequate for any level of scary condition involving wind, current, waves, darkness, or aircraft carriers bearing down on you at high speed. But I do believe the "outboard replacement" products are a completely different category and are worth a closer look. The Torqueedo demo videos on line are pretty impressive, and I saw a live demo of the Lehr propane motor at the Annapolis boat show and it was impressive as well, although a little louder than I had hoped.
Like hybrid cars, these alternate-fuel outboards are initially more expensive than gas motors, but not ridiculously so - both are in the $1500 to $2000 range for a motor that will replace a 3-5 HP gas motor. That should come down in time. Personally, I'm eager to get gasoline out of my (boating) life. I don't like the smell, the noise, the fire hazard, the unreliability, the fuel cost, and the need for so much annual maintenance. I'm sure my little Mercury/Tohatsu 5 HP has consumed more $ in fuel, oil and maintance over its life than the original cost of the motor.
Not to beat the Prius metaphor to death, but my wife's Prius gets 53 mpg on the highway. At current gas prices, that's a substantial annual cost savings that must be taken into account when you complain about the initial cost of the car.
I admit to some anti-gas bias since I've always been a sailor - never a power boat guy. When I go sailing I want to hear the wind and the birds, not that damn motor chugging away, and I hate the smell of the exhaust.
Thus endeth the sermon for today :).
Wes
Good sermon, brother Wes:
I love the Prius but don't have one...just don't need a new car right now. My daughter in law has an Insight...gets about 48 mpg. And without any of the plug-in nonsense. I like the hybrid Camry.
I will admit to being a motorhead. While I have not been, nor will ever be a powerboater, I do love the marvel of the internal combustion engine. It served to save my 23 from a collision with a dock on one occasion...saved her from pilot error, it did.
bob23
" I'm sure my little Mercury/Tohatsu 5 HP has consumed more $ in fuel, oil and maintance over its life than the original cost of the motor. "
Wait for the battery replacement costs to hit home.
From part of yesterday's facebook discussion
-->Skip Weis Yesterday.
In the Chevron product ads STOP using the term RENEWABLE ENERGY...no such thing as renewable energy...look up the meaning of ENTROPY and learn what it is. It is not possible to fool Mother Nature.
The only two sources of energy on earth are Sun Shine and Nuclear. You can't name a renewable energy source.
~Wind? Sun heating air masses. Differential temperatures.
~Falling water? How did the water
go up? Sun evaporation.
~Sugar cane distilled into alcohol and burned? Grow more sugar cane. Thats Sun Power. Alcohol has less btu's in it than gasoline so you'll have to burn more alcohol to go the same distance.
~Solar cells? Sun Power. Sun goes down. No power.
~Batteries? They don't store energy. It's an instant chemical reaction of closing a circuit.
~Tidal Wave action? Wind from the Sun and pull from the moon.
~It's a solid Nuclear core in earth that keeps Old Faithful, faithful.
~Bio Mass? Grown algae. It is distilled Sun Power.
~Coal, Natural gas, oil? All sun powered bio btu's stored.
Everything is made of moving molecules of adams and it takes an energy input to keep these molecules moving. It is not possible to keep these molecules moving without an input of more energy. For example, it takes more electricity to charge up a battery then was ever pulled out of a battery. It takes a 'bizzion' btu's of solar power to make just a few kW of electricity. Some 3,412 btu/kW. Some 180,000 btu in a gallon of gasoline. Some 1,000 btu in a cubic foot of Natural gas and 2,800 btu in a cubic foot of propane.
What do you see here? Energy is always HEAT. Without heat we are dead. Or in the process of assuming room temperature.
Stuart Laycock That's why the Toyota Prius pisses me off. Nickel is mined in Canada, shipped to Scandinavia to make batteries, the batteries are then shipped to Japan to make the car, then the car is shipped back to North America.
Think you're saving the planet buying a Prius? You're a moron.
Skip Weis I agree. And note that I have no need to 'save' the planet. It's doing just fine. Note that Toyota found it too expensive to manufacture parts AND assemble in Japan. So Toyota tried assembly in China with Japanese made parts. That became too expensive. So now Toyota has moved assembly to South Korea using Japanese made parts. Fuji Heavy Industries, aluminum supplier to Toyota has factory ships that sail out of Japan to Australia, scrape the bauxite off the beach onto the factory ships, sail 12 miles off the coast, fire up the smelters, toss the dregs over the side, belch the affluents out the stacks, and deliver aluminum ingots to the aluminum casters in Japan that Toyota buys to remelt and cast their aluminum pieces. It's all very cost efficient to be sure. Remember, Japan has no natural resopurces...hence the war efforts. No steel, no rubber, no oil, and on and on. skip.
David Rowbotham A surprising amount of stuff touted as "green" isn't anything of the sort once you factor in production and transport methods and costs.
CE Instruments Ltd Quite happy to agree, but. there is only one form of energy, Nuclear, what is our sun but a giant nuclear reactor posisioned many miles from our homes.
Skip Weis Ah...touch`e
Alicia Renee' Perry I agree that we can't go green until we can honestly make the materials as cost effective as possible, both monetarily and environmentally. :/ Though, it's quite exciting that they're starting to break even with fusion.
reply to Bella right on man he could sail close to slip then drop sail a good sailor sails into slip its called sailing not motor boating that's my sermon for the day see ya ha ha
While we're drifting off thread to land transportation, please remember the humble and most efficient means of human transportation: the bicycle. You wanna go green? Ride a bike. If I could rig a pedal mechanism to propel my Compac 23, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Bob23...(I sail on and off my mooring. Motor is just backup when safety demands it.)