Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association

 Hi Guys,

I recently purchased a new Legacy and have been wondering about the amount of foam buoyancy fitted. I did try making a guesstimate of it but because of all the irregular shapes I couldn't come up with a reliable figure.

I really have two questions, 
                                        1: if I manage to put a hole in the boat will it float or sink?

                                        2: if it has enough foam to float, will it float right way up or inverted?

Any ideas?

Pete H

Fills with water, down she goes. No requirement or law to make her float when awash. Not with keeled and ballasted hulls. There might be a change with a centerboard hull, If you want an unsinkable sail boat buy a French Made ETAP.

Like a Com-Pac 19 it could be filled 100% with expanding foam and the cement and pig iron ballast will still pull her under.

skip.

Hi Skip,

Thanks for your thoughts. Sinks like a stone, yep that tends to concentrate the mind and is one of the things I have been wondering about.

As you say there is no legal requirement for buoyancy to be fitted and I'm sure you're correct for the U.S. however in Australia there is an NMSC (National Marine Safety Committee) requirement for all boats built after 2006 and less than six meters (20 feet) in length to have positive bouyancy fitted and for the boat to float level and upright when awash.

A Legacy fully equipped probably weighs about 600 kilograms (approx. 1300 pounds), so needs about 0.6 cubic meters of buoyancy material (about 20cubic feet I think) to provide enough flotation to counteract the sinking effect of the boat's hull, deck, ballast, motor and other equipment.

The Legacy has a lot of foam in the hull, in front of the forward storage, across the hull under the cockpit floor, the area under both bunks is completely foamed as are the comings down the quarter berths.

This is a new boat and should be built to meet the NMSC requirements to be sold in Australia and I'm sure it is, but I did start to wonder, then I started to try to assess the bouyancy, but because of the complex shapes I couldn't be very accurate. I was hoping that someone with a better sense of spatial relationships may have already checked or worked out the amount of foam fitted.
But if that is not the case, then I guess I have two choices:
                                                                                      1: hope that the foam fitted is sufficient

                                                                                      2: try to do a more accurate assessment myself. If I have to do that I'll
                                                                                           Post the results here for future reference.
Thanks for your thoughts Skip,
Regards and fair winds and calm seas

Pete H.
Legacy in Oz.

Pete:
   You have a third choice: Don't fill the cockpit with water! I've often thought about enlarging the cockpit drains on my 1985 23/2 to at least 2 inches. If the cockpit floods and doesn't drain in a few minutes, the next wave could sink the boat.
   Keep the drop boards in and you'll prevent water from entering the cabin. Once that happens, things can to from bad to worse very quickly. Do you have an electric bilge pump fitted? In my humble opinion, that is a must. If the boat can bail itself, it'll free you to tend to other important duties.
   Just my $.02- Bob23

Bob23,

Thanks for your thoughts.  No, I don't as yet have an electric bilge pump fitted, but it is up the top of the list of things still to be done.
  Cockpit drains! The cockpit drains on my last trailer sailer were 2 1/4 inches, those on the Legacy are about 1 1/4 add in the low transom and I have something else to wonder about.  Perhaps it's old age, I'm sure I didn't even think about stuff like this when I was fifty years younger. Perhaps I'm too old fashioned, when I had a look at a new Eclipse it didn't have at ransom at all, then the first thing I thought wasn't about the cockpit drains, it was, if I dropped something it would roll straight out the back.

Too much time on my hands, better go sailing!

Regards,

Pete H

" however in Australia there is an NMSC (National Marine Safety Committee) requirement for all boats built after 2006 and less than six meters (20 feet) in length to have positive buoyancy fitted and for the boat to float level and upright when awash. "

I think the U.S. has something like that but it does not apply to sailboats.

I see what happens when government gets heavy handed and imposes strict standards? Suppose what a better design the boat in question could have without all that extra foam [20cubic foot in a 18 foot long boat] taking up valuable interior space and only adding extra weight. Next they will require sailors to wear protective head gear...something batted about in California from time to time.

Life is dangerous. Let's not make it idiot proof.

skip.

Hi Pete!

I imagine the Legacy would sink if holed.
Further, I can't see putting enough foam in there to keep it upright.  There would be little room for anything else.

As a general rule, all of the small Com-pacs are not at risk of capsizing without a large breaking wave on the beam helping to overturn it. They will round up and spill air in high wind conditions keeping the keel down in the process.

If you plan to go out in conditions like this...I'm speaking of 8-10 ft breaking waves, you're sailing the wrong boat.

Personally I would invest in a good personal floatation device (with strobe, whistle, maybe a radio) and tether before messing around with foam.  If you're in bad enough conditions to sink the boat, you'll be in dire straights as well.

A bilge pump is a great idea.  Been meaning to install one.  It will probably sit unused (no thru hulls and our lake doesn't create big waves) as an insurance policy.

P.s. Congrats on the Legacy...very nice little boat!!!

I am a little confused(and no offense meant)by the concept that all boats should be by law or whatever be rendered "unsinkable". Are cars supposed to be "uncrashable"? For me, at least, the lure of sailing is about pitting my skills against the elements and accepting the risks associated with taking my boat to sea. For uncounted years sailors have been doing just that. The pride of calling oneself a Sailor is that we accept the risks and set forth upon the water in spite of those risks. A pilot who flies an aircraft accepts the risks. If he fails, he may die. One who flies an RC plane only risks the loss of his toy. Not a great analogy perhaps but sailing is by definition a complex endeavour fraught with a myriad of choices and consequences. To sanitize it would somehow lessen the gut level appeal and responsibility of captaincy. Just an old salts opinion and worth what you paid for it.

Good word, Craig. And very true.
To make something completely safe is to take the life out of it.
bob23

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your input. We certainly have a range of opinions. Some of them totally contrary to others. In
an attempt to get a definitive answer I emailed Hutchins Co. and this morning I received a reply from Gerald L Hutchins. I tried to copy and paste it here but was unable to do so.  So I will précis it here.

Hutchins said that when they redesigned the CP 16 they wanted a boat that was dimensionally the same, but wanted it to perform better, " and we wanted it to have positive foam flotation, not level flotation as powerboats are required to have but, enough that it would not sink." (exact quotation)

Hutchins believed that the National Marine Manufacturers Association would certify the Legacy for flotation. When the Legacy was all ready to go for inspection he learned that the NMMA follows the national standards  and there will not certify flotation in a sailboat.

Again an exact quote .." So, here we were with a boat that by OUR calculations would float but with no authorative body to certify it"
" It is still built to the specs that we believed would provide flotation for the boat alone, not considering equipment, supplies etc."

There is a fair bit of other info and if any would like a copy of the letter I would be happy to email the complete thing to you.

So... That's me satisfied on this topic.  Also, what great service from Hutchins Co. when the Boss himself quickly and completely takes time to answer a query from a customer.
Pete H

Put enough foam in the boat so it won't sink...will the deck 'let go' from the hull anyway?

Just asking. skip.

Thank you Pete. That is very interesting, indeed!
bob23

Ah Skip,

I wish you hadn't said that, you've given me something else to worry about.

Pete H

Pete:
   Skip is right. I'd be concerned about that...I imagine it wasn't designed to withstand uplift. Sounds like another call to Rich Hutchins is in order!
bob23

Pete,
Over the last 40 years I have sailed around 15k - 18k miles on boats that will not float.  I did not sail 1 mile on a boat without a suitable life jacket aboard.
BobK

Thanks for the information Pete. Makes me feel that much better about my Legacy. Not that I was that much worried  ;) still good to know.

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your thoughts on this topic. I really value your input. I value all points of view, and I like to test them against mine. This allows me to modify my views if necessary. Views formed alone and never reviewed or tested against others beliefs can lead one up some very strange paths. Rest assured someone expressing a view contrary to mine will not upset me, the point of view will be considered then adopted or let lie, but it will be thought about.

I have of course sailed on boats without positive buoyancy, my last boat, a Hartley TS18, which we owned for nearly fourty years, probably would have sunk if holed. About 30 years ago I hit an unidentified object and punched whole in the hull a couple of inches below the waterline, only about a two inch hole, but the inflow of water was staggering. Luckily were only a few hundred yards off shore so I ran her up on the beach, but if I had been a few miles off shore, well I would have found out if it floated or not. I had my wife and ten year old son on board. After this I fitted a heap of foam as insurance. I feel that there is a lot more junk floating about off our shores now, so the odds of hitting something have increased.

I became interested in positive buoyancy in my Legacy as there seemed to be a lot of it, (so much that there is bit of a shortage of storage space) and because of the above I was interested.

Some of you have mentioned PDFs, and of course we always have them on board, currently using gas canister inflatable types.

We also carry flares, smoke signals, an EPIRB and radio.

I generally sail in what would be classed as enclosed waters, large bays, estuaries, coastal areas shielded by offlying islands or sand bars or large lakes. My favourite sailing area is a series interconnected lakes separated from the sea by a large sand ridge. These are the largest network of lakes in Australia, (large is a relative concept though as they are less than one percent the size of Lake Superior). When the wind blows along the main lake there is a fetch of about fifty miles and we get a nasty short and choppy wave pattern, but nothing like eight or ten feet thankfully, although that would be common in Bass Strait, so I don't usually get more than a few miles off sure there.

It is not my intention to try and sanitize sailing, I realize there are certain inherent risks and challenges in our activity and I also realize that no matter how much care we take we can still be caught out and then it is up to us. My other main interest is motor cycling and my approach there is similar, I wear a helmet, leathers, gloves and boots, but that doesn't guarantee a motorcyclists safety, even skill and never failing vigilance make riding a large bike completely safe.

Thanks for all your thoughtful comments
Best wishes for fair winds

Pete H

What? Me worry?
This was my dad's Star Boat in a Lake Michigan blow about 1963. I was just learning on my Penquin. Me and Dad were laughing so hard I had a belly ache.

This picture was taken by Warren Pattenson from his Rhodes 19 keel boat. The same boat that I was later the 'Spinnaker Man' on when we raced her.
Warren was my Dad's best grade school and Navy war pal.

Dad's open cockpit Star Boat is in no danger of taking on water or flooding.
Rest assured that that this sharpie's iron keel would have sucked her down in a heart beat if the hull flooded.
Moments later she righted herself.
The Star is just a good, strong, safe, racing boat that goes like stink. The Star has zero floatation and here is why.

-->" Flotation -  Applicability; Since the regulation is divided according to boat type, the applicability for the various types is discussed in each subpart. The exceptions, however, apply to all subparts and are as follows:

Sailboats, canoes, kayaks, inflatable boats, submersibles, surface effect vessels, amphibious vessels, multi-hull boats and race-boats need not comply. "<--



skip.

Quote from: skip1930 on November 07, 2012, 07:31:31 AM
Put enough foam in the boat so it won't sink...will the deck 'let go' from the hull anyway?

Just asking. skip.

seems to me it would be mostly submerged and fairly nuetral in the water.  Even if turned turtle, I doubt the weight of the deck would be enough to separate it with a 5200 seal, machine screws and nuts, and chainplate help.

When I was installing an undermount SS sink, I asked a pro for some advice about the placement of the clamps to hold it in place.  He gave me a spacing spec, but said don't worry about it, the silicone seal will hold it without any clamps even when filled with water and dishes.  Clamps just make them feel better about it.:)

Hi all,

Skip1930, great photo!  The regulations in Victoria ( the Australian state where I live) are similar with a whole range of inclusions and exclusions that can be confusing, even for the boat builders who have to make their way through the minefield, and boats over twenty feet or yachts are just two among the exclusions. However in my state the Legacy is not regarded as a yacht. They insist on registering it as a "Trailer Sailer", and therefore it must contain positive buoyancy. Don't you just love bureaucrats! I guess it is a recognition that a heavily built, heavily ballasted boat built for blue water use is different to a trailer boat. I have some sympathy with that view as I have always felt that if it was light enough to trailer easily, it was probably to lightly constructed for offshore sailing. My previous boat was both too small and  lightly constructed and too big and heavy depending where and when, too small if I was caught out in 40 knot winds and too bloody big when trying to winch it back onto the trailer at a steep boat ramp.

Regards,

Pete H

Thanks for your thoughts Brackish, I think your probably correct with both assumptions.

Pet H

Skip said, "Next they will require sailors to wear protective head gear.".

When I was in college sailing "Shields" we wore "helmets" .  Those of us that were engineers did anyway. we wore our engineer's bump caps.  Any marine engineer will tell you they are invaluable to prevent contact with hard places on board a ship. 

Well, even the deckies started wearing them after an accidental gybe or two.

TG

In the late 80,s I had a young man who worked for me from Michigan who was an aux. deputy sheriff from around Saginaw Bay.One day he told how the Sheriff's department conceived of the idea of putting protective foam to match the " unsinkable qualities " of a fellow agency just down the road who had purchased a new boat. They had a local guy from I guess the materials dept of the local college give them spec's based on wt of the boat and rescue equipment and the men who would be aboard. The professor was challenged because he had never been asked to calculate this before, So then the got a local boat place to do the work. The young man went on to tell me that every thing was great, but when they launched the boat afterwords it noticeably sat lower in the water. After firing it up they safely proceeded to go further out in the bay before coming up on plane. The only problem was when tried to plane the boat would porpoise an  extreme fashion, something it never did before the "improvement. It seems no considered the weight of the foam necessary to make the boat unsinkable, and the negative effects of that wt.He also went on to say that at that point they were resigned to putting some hydraulic leveling tabs in the next years budget because that years budget was blown. Best intentions, eh?

Asking "should cars be made uncrashable" is asking the wrong question.  Adding foam to make a boat unsinkable is akin to adding an air bag to a car or designing the frame to reduce g-forces for the occupants in a crash.  It's a safety feature with little or no impact on performance that can make a bad accident survivable that might not be otherwise.  If you don't want the floatation don't buy that boat or remove it.  Don't belittle the thinking of those who see value in it.  Plenty of experienced sailors see value in positive foam floatation.

I found Gerry's answer to be very honest and forthright.  It makes me wonder on what basis other manufacturers stamp their boats as unsinkable?  Do they have any certification?  I'm also impressed that they left the foam in place even once they realized they could not stamp the boats as unsinkable.  Some manufacturers might have skipped the foam to save some building cost.

I for one am glad that my Legacy has the foam and I intend to do everything in my power to make sure the foam is a "waste of space". :-)

I think it great that it was designed right and met your concerns. But new technology can have unintended consequences, The air bag turn off switch on passengers side of my F150 was due to the maiming and injury of kids or small adults (like my 85 year old mother), If I am not mistaken there was also a tuning up (or down actually) of air bags due too much force breaking noses or ribs. Or going off at minor contact with bumper. I don't know the short hand name but there is a "law of unintended consequences"? Even when engineered by professionals there are problems. I think project management is a way to deal with unexpected complications. Boat design is both an art and a science, and I think any safety engineering is too.
No one is knocking the foam in a boat, but the problems that are legitimate concerns and shouldn't be ignored. Forums like this are a place to address these concerns especially when it applies to marine applications of safety technology. Also to inform such as when owners of boats might think they have "unsinkable" foam in their boat when it has a completely different purpose Centuries of knowledge  (you old fuddy  duddies you) are behind a lot of these posters.

Nothing new about foam floatation.  Some boats have had it for decades.  Flying Scots for example have had it since the 1950's.