OK, I just got through posting poeticaly ( I hope) to the topic Why I Sail. Now it's time to tell the sad tale of this weekend's sail. It was really a stupid mistake, totally preventable. A simple $.25 piece of rigging hardware must not have been installed properly because while tacking through a nice gust, the whole rig went over the side. What a shock! I was by myself and fortunately on a protected lake and the only damage was my pride and the cabin top. All those post I read about not bolting the mast step through the cabin are totally true! I had no doubt when I read them, but a PO had bolted it and covered it in 5200 so I figured it was too much trouble to change. And besides that, I'm a fair weather sailor and who would figure something like that could happen on a calm lake with mild winds! So as I stood there watching my sails float on the water, wondering what the heck happened, I noticed the clevis pin that holds the turnbuckle to the starboard chainplate laying on the deck. Hmmm, no cotter ring (ring dingy thing) to be seen anywhere. I reserved judgement of the culprit until I checked the starboard shroud and turnbuckle, and sure enough, they were fine. OOPS! I guess that little cotter ring wiggled out of place. I didn't know that was possible. Maybe I didn't secure it properly. I had been sailing in fluky winds all afternoon before it happened.
Fortunately friends of mine came over on their pontoon boat and helped me get the sails, mast and boom back on the boat so I could motor home with my tiller between my legs. None of them understand why I want to go to so much trouble to sail and this little episode did nothing to change that opinion!
So now Forever 16 is back in our yard awaiting our attention. The sad thing is we just spent weeks finding and repairing leaks, tearing out and replacing half the cabin ceiling, rebedding the hull to deck joint, changing the mainsheet blocks, putting in new plastic for the ports and painting the interior. We launched her on Sat. and pulled her out Sun. afternoon
The good news is that after surveying the damage, Rick feels he can repair it. Also the sails and all the rigging are fine. I thought for sure the forestay would be kinked or toggles on turnbuckles bent, but all are OK. Lucky me!
Here's how the top looks. Believe me, it looks worse in person!
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/d7f114be415e0c29fb4fcbfc66748da8.jpg)
Here's what it looks like inside, after Rick hacked away the 5200 and removed 4 bolts and peeled back the ceiling. There were wedges on top of the compression posts so looks like we'll be replacing it as well.
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/a292c9f8fc2390db00ffe39eda5f2fd5.jpg)
So that's my tale so far. Wish I had some rollicking sailing story to tell.....Next time!
Pamelina
Wow, I'm glad you weren't hurt. I through-bolted mine this spring after the screws pulled out, now you have me questioning it. Is it possible that the jib sheet got caught on the ring and tore it off without you noticing?
Thanks for the pictures and write-up.
Wow! Sorry to hear about your misfortune. The good news is a. you weren't hurt and didn't lose your rigging; and b. once again, the rest of us have been warned. A previous owner of Pegasus had replaced the wood screws with bolts and nuts. I think I'll remove the nuts for a modicum of safety. So far I've been lucky and haven't had a shroud come loose. One day, I did notice a circlip missing. How they get loose is beyond me. There is a lot of vibration in the rigging sometimes. I just find it amazing how they can come loose when they are so difficult to install and purposely remove.
Marty K.
The devil is in the details.
OK the pin holding the bottom of the turnbuckle lost it's keeper [if it actually had one] and fell out of the chainplate??? What!
Begs a few questions. On a CP-16 is there only one shroud from the chain plate to the mast per side? I really don't know without looking at pictures.
1~Why had the pin become unpinned? We will never know.
2~If the standing rigging [shroud] was taught even on the leeward side [loose side] that pin should have been 'bound' within the chainplate and turnbuckle.
3~This is why I don't like rigger's tape. YOU CAN"T see a failure coming. Which is why my rudder has it's nut's up. I want to watch those threads on the bolts!
4~Was this pin too small for the holes in the chain plate and turnbuckle, allowing 'slop', 'rattling', and have 'movement'?
5~Accidents don't happen. You have to let them happen.
6~Pins usually have a larger shoulder [head] which stops them from being slid through the holes. So...
7~The head of the pin, the shoulder points toward the centerline of the boat. Gravity wants to keep 'driving' into the chainplate and turnbuckle when heeled over.
8~ Picky, picky, picky...shut up skip we get the idea.
9~I'm so sorry this happened. Now what is interesting is that the tabernacle hung on best as it could. Nothing here failed... a testament as to how strong some folded stainless steel can be. [thickness of the sheet steel tabernackle in decimal-inches x 10,000 lb divided by a safety factor of 4. Typical steel engeering right from the
Ryerson Steel book. BTW, The 1/4-20 bolts bolted clean through failed to fail as well. Outstanding! And the plywood reinforcing doubler [I'll call it a hardpoint] that is glassed in with 20 ounce woven fiberglass matt, resign impregnated is intact. Again outstanding. 'Strong like bull'.
10~Just like heat goes to cold, stress goes to the weakest part. The cabin roof. The thinest part. The easiest to fix. New shimless compression post.
11~ Sawout the damage and replace with a solid woven glass cloth resign impregnated. Layer after wet layer til the structure is reconstructed.
12~Sand like a fiend and paint it up. Bend the tabernacle back into shape, and reinstall. Have to be there to decide if the hardpoint can be reused. Build a new one or put back the old one. Same deference.
skip.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/DSSSR.jpg)
Cheap insurance. One time use only. use a new one every time these are used as 'keepers'.
I am sorry to see this happen to you.
Glad everyone is okay and all boat parts are accounted for
I urge the usage of West System or a similar epoxy for repair. It is very repairable luckily.
Most big boats are all thru bolted............but this does have its points. Also gives me another reason to continue to use life caulk. It isnt a adhesive like the 5200 and Today I made a video about thru hulls.
I should have it up soon.
I hope the repairs go well.
Atleast it wasnt the start of the season.
Mac
P:
So sorry this has happened but glad you weren't hurt. When a mast comes down, it's not a good day but you will get past this and you'll have a great story to tell that few of us do!
I enjoyed your other post about why you like sailing. You'll be back on the water and I can just about guarantee- you're mast will never come down again!
Bob23
I had exactly the same thing happen on a West Wight Potter I once owned! I do not trust "Cotter Rings". >:( Theoretically they should be secure but they are NOT. If they are used they should be taped to prevent them from rotating. Sorry about your mishap! I was lucky in that the Potter mast was not bolted to the deck and the only thing damaged was my pride
I had the split ring on my forstay on my Sun Cat break. I noticed a piece of the ring on the foredeck when stteing the anchor and wondered where that strange peice of SS came from. The next day during a long lazy sail to the next anchorage it was still working around my brain and I gazed around the rigging. That is when I noticed the forestay pin at an angle at high up the mast. It did not look correct. So we pulled into the next bay and dropped sail and set the anchor. I lowered the mast to the gallows and examined the connection. The Split ring had worn through and only a small tail of it remained in the pin to hold it in place. I replaced the pin with a bolt and a nyloc nut. Raised the mast and was thankful that I did not lose the mast!!
Hope everyone inspects thier rigging regularly.
" bolt and a nyloc nut "
I always wondered about bolts vs pins.
Are marine quality pins better than cadmium plated or ss bolts?
I have no idea.
Any keeper [ring/cotter pin] is a one season, never reuse item.
I guess if these are replaced seasonally, it does not matter unless the season is year around.
skip.
My mistake was that I never removed this fitting. It was installed at the factory and I never bothered it. I think the bolt is strong enough and the nut will not back off. Also the issue with the suncat is the forestay is held by 2 straps at the mast head, one on each side. These are free to pivot and twist and this action casued the strap on the ring side to wear against it. The bolt was tightened so that the movement at the fitting is very slight and the straps stay centered.
I would prefer to have a pin and ring but would change the straps to a single unit.
On how they come loose. On a previous boat a CL16 that we beached with a lot of other similar boats there were cases of rings going missing. We figured kids were playing around the boats at night. We started taping all our shrouds with at few turns of rigging tape around the rings. They could still be inspected but if tampered with the tape would have to be distrubed and it is impossible to but back on.
For the record, when I lost the mast on the Potter, I found both the the clevis pin AND the intact split ring on deck. To this day I cannot explain how the split ring backed out because I absolutely know the ring was properly installed and seated. ???
Forgot to mention, in my dismasting it was the forestay (CDR furler to be exact) pin which came out.
"I just find it amazing how they can come loose when they are so difficult to install and purposely remove."
Went out sailing with my son on the Delaware river yesterday. Winds only about 4 or 5 mph, sometimes! David was handling the tiller, I manned the next to useless jib. Since I was sitting up near the cabin, I had occasion to check the shrouds... and what did I find: One circlip had about an 1/8 of an inch left before disaster! Ordered David to maintain a steady course and reached for my trusty Leatherman - just in time! Tragedy averted! Oh yeah, I did check them prior to leaving home, but the stretch of road to the ramp is pretty rough - lots of vibration. Lesson learned, check again just before launch.
Marty K.
If anyone is tempted to replace clevis pins with stainless bolts and nuts, this is probably a good time for a reminder that it's a bad idea. Bolts, especially non-rated ones, are not designed to withstand the shear forces that are present under heavy sailing conditions. Notice that your chainplates and shroud turnbuckles are under the same amount of force, yet our friends at Hutchins chose to attach the chainplates to the hull on my 19 with 3 bolts each, whereas the turnbuckle is attached with only 1 clevis pin. Hint, hint.
The only real choice is how the clevis pin is retained. Personally I use cotter pins at al locations that are not easily inspected, such as high on the mast, and also at any location that is rarely removed, such as the lower bowsprit stay. I use cotter rings at locations that are frequently removed, such as where the furler connects to the bowsprit. The shroud turnbuckles are debatable. I've been using rings since they make it easier to tweak shroud tension, but after reading this thread I think I will change them to cotter pins! My deepest hope is for my mast to never go overboard....
Wes
A few years ago, after my 23 was hauled out at the seasons end and while we were de-rigging her, I noticed that the cleavis pin holding the forestay to the deck fitting did not have a split ring in it. I have no idea how long I sailed that summer without it but, be dang sure that I check that and all pins regularly now. I suppose it just rusted and fell out...salt water can do a number on those little rings.
Bob23
Wow, thanks everyone for your stories and advise. I don't feel quite as bad now that I know I'm not the only one who has had trouble with cotter rings.
Rick's doing a great job on the repairs. The cabin top is back in place and we're working on the compression post and ceiling. We won't have her in for this weekend, but soon!
Pam
Thanks for all of your stories and advice. "Slow Dancing" now has all new SS cotter pins. Most that I replaced were of a too small diameter, some were well worn, and several had rusted! Cotter rings are replaced as well. In addition, my boat had two previous owners in Ohio where they were some distance form a Marine store. I suspect that when something fell overboard, a trip to the nearest hardware store provided a look alike item as a replacement. Those standing rigging items, too, have been relaced with proper marine hardware.
Hello One and All! I have great news and the photos to prove it! Rick, with my modest help(http://), has finished up the repairs from the dismasting. I'll jump right in with a before and after photo:
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/aa1a20f095a147d90adf9aa6e1e234d1.jpg)
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/b2975ce23096d56dffe1a82f2df2caa1.jpg)
For someone who at first thought he couldn't fix it I think he did a remarkable job!
Now this next photo was before the he dreaded day, when we pulled out the starboard side of the overhead to remove the wet core. You can see the bolts that caused the trouble.
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/1f1f13d480a6da1942550ac7667f63c1.jpg)
This CP16 is from 1976, and there was this Masonite like stuff for a core:
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/2cf79a2f3ed262d9c66765c1781c174b.jpg)
We pulled out all that was wet then added 1/8 resin coated plywood and coated all with fiberglass cloth and resin. What I didn't get a photo of was the forrest of 2x4s Rick had wedged in from the bunks to the ceiling to form the cabin top curve.
Now the before and after of our interior after the dismasting:
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/35d78c93d245cf061ed4d3a53809c879.jpg)
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/5318e4cad69d36c02d88756588b5dcb3.jpg)
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r633/PamelinaWeena/Forever%2016/963b6d3f4b9e889635e70ae358017eca.jpg)
The new compression post goes all the way to the keel. I called Hutchins and Mitch ( I think) said that would be fine. Of course it's also bolted at the base through the bulkhead and a screw under the mast step.
We'll probably launch her this weekend and hopefully we can get to the pleasure of sailing after all this work!
Thanks all for your concern and advise. I too have inspected and replaced all pins and ring dings!
Pam
That looks fantastic Pam. It would be great if you could give some details on the steps involved in the repairs that you and Rick did. Again, great job! :)
Fair winds,
Bill
Very nice job! Thank you for sharing. I hope you will have a great sail soon!
Jill :)
Very nice work...looks good as new!
I am using split rings, but am rethinking this after reading this post. Certainly will be checking these more often.
Previous owner used cotter pins and discovered pin missing from clevis pin attaching the forestay when we were lowering the mast. He had the boat in the water year round so it would have been easy to overlook some things. The pic is of the bobstay I replaced. It did have a cotter pin in it, but...
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii574/zzzzzzz77/2012%20SailBoat%20Project/DSCF0034.jpg)[/URL]
Ivo