was out today wind 20 gust to 25 felt good what does it take to dump this 16 see ya
That's what I like to hear (read) about, someone out there sail'in and hav'in FUN!
capt_nemo
Jim:
After you dump your 16, you can tell us what it took to do it! Best not to find out because, filled with water, she will sink!
Bob23
Even better Jimdoesmo, record it for the rest of us!
Now we'll finally know how far she'll go!
I think most sailors try to keep her on her lines with good sailing techique in adverse weather...but if you want to be the designated crash-test dummy, by all means, feel free!
Don't get hurt!
Just get it on avi and share the results. tip.. mount the camera on the upper mast so we can calculate heel angle.. because she ain't going over til the mast hits the water, unless she was out of CG to begin with.. trust me.. tie off everything before you attempt this..
I've been working on this myself on my '77 CP-16..
Me thinks only a large wave would knock it down.
Hey Jimdoesmo:
Keep the drop boards in and the hatch closed.
regards charlie
Seriously, this would be an interesting experiment. This summer, I had to replace a topping lift on my freinds Precision 15k. This boat weighs 600 lbs and carries a small lead wing keel weighing 250 lbs. In order to reach the masthead, I tied off a halyard and pulled on the top of the mast until I could reach it. Considering that I was standing in the water, that means the mast was parallel to the water and the boat was completely on it's side. There was always positive tension on the halyard and when released, the boat popped up on her lines.
I would imagine a 16 would do even better but who out there in 16-land is brave enough to try it? A cuppa grog and a positive karma to the first taker!
bob23...and, no! I won't try it on my 23. She's too heavy anyway and I've already had the mast close enough to the water for my liking, thank you!
I came pretty close to dumping my 16 about 3 months ago. There were three adults on the boat, no companionway hatch, and winds were very reasonable - about 10 to 15 at most. We were sailing along and I was giving instruction to one of the "crew" while the other crew member, my wife, lounged up on the foredeck. We got hit with a microburst from the side that I did not see coming (my bad). It should have been fine, but the guy holding the tiller turned away from the wind as we started to lean pretty hard and we got it full on amidships. The mast slapped down on the water and the cockpit filled faster than I would ever have imagined possible. The wet sail more or less pinned us sideways for what seemed like minutes but was probably less than a second or two. My wife had slid off the front end of the boat and into the lake (getting a nasty bruise as she went). I fell across cockpit and grabbed the tiller to turn us upwind but we had lost most forward motion. I was desperately trying to free up the main and jib as the boat laboriously started to roll back up. By then the cockpit was full past the level of the hatch door and we were taken on some water. I was scared. As we turned to windward the sails starting flapping and we righted pretty fast. The water ran out of the cockpit and we picked up my wife - who was none too happy. We had a "low, slow, go" as we sponged out the cabin. There was a lots of water in there and my boat never has standing water in it - it was kind of sickening to see it. Fortunately, the electronics and whatnot are mounted high in the cabin and there was no permanent damage.
What I learned from this was how fast things can go downhill. I used to own a 26 footer and sailed it in the Adriatic. We had crazy winds at times, but the boat was large enough that you felt that you were able to manage just about everything (I had one close call coming into a marina once, when the engine died and wouldn't restart). Other than that, the larger boat seemed slower and it just felt more controlled. With the 16, things happen much faster.
For most things, the mistakes one makes on a small boat like a 16 are so easily forgiven. It's fantastic sailing without much between you and the boat - it's more "raw" in the sense that you have your "hands on" the sailing. You hold a rope versus a winch, for example. But, don't be fooled, you are sailing a boat on the water and you can sink her.
Was out on my 10th Anniversary Edition 1984 CP 16 (hull# 2133) single-handing on Lake Superior last Sunday with pretty brisk conditions of 48°F with a steady breeze coming out of the WSW at 22 knots and gusting over 30 knots with choppy seas running from 2 to 4 feet along with swells on the big lake out of the south channel of the Duluth/Superior harbor. With a double reef tied in on my new custom full batten SailCare main, and just about a foot and a half to two feet of my roller furling 130 genny deployed, she was a bit overpowered, but exciting as hell. I did manage to get water to come in over both port and starboard cockpit combings rounding up on some pretty wicked gusts that I'm estimating were at around 35 knots or better.
It would take some very serious wind to knock down one of these CP 16's; a big wave or a combination of both IMHO.
And that's EXACTLY why I chose this sturdy and stout little sixteen footer to tackle the big winds we get on the big lake.
These are shots of my CP16 that I bought September 2011 and hauled back here to Duluth, MN from northern Indiana that I am in the process of restoring and upgrading for heavy air use on Lake Superior named Ön (pronounced "Ooon") that was taken on a much calmer day.
I've also included some detailed shots of some improvements that I had the fine folks and serious sailing experts at Barker's Island Marina of Superior, WI install for me, for those of you that are into upgrading gear. The man that supervised my rigging improvements just completed the Pacific Cup (Double-handed from San Francisco to Hawaii) only with his wife this summer on an Olson 30 and the manager of the marina also races his own Olson 30.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2911.jpg)
New Harken Carbo Hexaratchet
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2897.jpg)
New Harken Carbo boom end block for the main sheet
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2891.jpg)
Other "goodies" for handling the big air we get on the big lake
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2896.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2892.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2884.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2900.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2893.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2894.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2889.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2895.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2899.jpg)
Hey that is the first twin I have seen for our first Com-Pac. We had hull #2108 of the anniversary issue. Man those are pretty boats.
Here is a pic of "Puppy Luff "
(http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt211/greene2108/CopyofDSC00954.jpg)
Mike
Quote from: Solid_Tude on October 11, 2012, 11:04:00 AM
Other "goodies" for handling the big air we get on the big lake
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2893.jpg)
Are those lower shrouds just for lateral stabilization when raising/lowering the mast, or are they part of the heavy air modifications too?
to swabbie thanks for info I do not want to sink my boat I just wondered if it would go over and what would it take love this little boat see ya jimdoesmo
Wow! Ted, glad you made out ok. That must've been a scary one. But, just think if you hadn't been in a ballasted boat? You could've turtled! And sunk. It does seem like every disaster is a combination of bad luck, bad choices and maybe being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
bob23
(ps Tude: Can I come to live in your shop? That place is tooooo nice!)
This has turned into a great post on so many differant levels.. I don't think any of us want to dump our boats, the weather is getting down right cold in my region, so swamping the boat this time of year is out of the question.. But we all want to know how far she'll go..
Ted, I've had something like that happen to me, except I wasn't actually knocked down, just scared s#itless and solo, but that's what started me thinking about being knocked down.. I'm glad no one was hurt..
Bob23, you know every CP-16 is a little differant, how they're setup, weighted, rigged and crewed makes a huge difference with these boats, when I sail with "movable ballast", I find it harder because I can feel how the extra weight effects every aspect of how she handles, and if someone isn't paying attention, all hell can break loose in a big puff.. That's another reason I started to think about being knocked down.
Solid_Dude, I love what you've done to the boat, Gucci hardware indeed! I'm aligned with your way of thinking! The double jiffy reef rocks! I'm not much for comfy cabins and would rather rough it singlehanded with quality sailing gear when weather moves in..
I'm surprised Skip1930 hasn't made a visit here..
Solid_Tude,
Sure is a good looking 16.
What size jib on your furler? How did you decide on the location of the tracks? Can you work a Genoa from that track location?
Are the tracks 18 inch? Are the tracks secured to backer blocking or just screwed to the gunwhale?
Quote from: Greene on October 11, 2012, 11:24:00 AM
Hey that is the first twin I have seen for our first Com-Pac. We had hull #2108 of the anniversary issue. Man those are pretty boats.
Here is a pic of "Puppy Luff "
(http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt211/greene2108/CopyofDSC00954.jpg)
Mike
Your "Puppy Luff" is looking fine Mike. Yeah, these 10th Anniversary Editions are pretty and rare. Only seen a couple others online.
Quote from: NateD on October 11, 2012, 12:16:20 PM
Quote from: Solid_Tude on October 11, 2012, 11:04:00 AM
Other "goodies" for handling the big air we get on the big lake
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2893.jpg)
Are those lower shrouds just for lateral stabilization when raising/lowering the mast, or are they part of the heavy air modifications too?
Both.
Quote from: jimdoesmo on October 11, 2012, 01:55:47 PM
to swabbie thanks for info I do not want to sink my boat I just wondered if it would go over and what would it take love this little boat see ya jimdoesmo
jimdoesmo, the "swabbie" designator is in reference to how many posts a forum member posts. New members get this designation automatically but I can see how you would call me that not knowing how this works. A lot of forums use inexperienced slang/terms appropriate for new forum users. It's just part of the fun.
In heavy air, put the hatch board(s) in and slide the top hatch cover closed. So if you do get knocked down, it's much harder for water to enter the cabin and sink you.
And you are very welcome for this info.
hatch boards in and mainsheet at hand, always good advice
Quote from: bimmerhead on October 11, 2012, 09:04:51 PM
Solid_Dude, I love what you've done to the boat, Gucci hardware indeed! I'm aligned with your way of thinking! The double jiffy reef rocks! I'm not much for comfy cabins and would rather rough it singlehanded with quality sailing gear when weather moves in..
Thanks bimmerhead. What made me chuckle, is that the carpenter that is designing and going to be making my trailering mast supports to hold both the mast and the furled 130 genny said to me and the marina manager, "This is going to be one GUCCI sixteen foot daysailer!" Nice coincidence eh?
Here's some shots of Ön beside a boat that Jason (the carpenter) and his dad designed and built that he is in the process of refurbishing before they got working on Ön. This is a 26 year old boat that they designed and built believe it or not in his dad's apartment. BTW, you can see the previous owners mast support that was attached to the rudder on my boat Ön in the first pic below. This was a real pain and time consuming at the ramp. The new mast support will be located in the cockpit and the other one will be fitted to the mast step. Notice the articulating extension at the bow on Jason's red boat for using the spinnaker that was pretty cool back then:
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2824.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x5/TJDevious/Loon/IMG_2819.jpg)
I too agree, obviously, with having quality gear to sail out of a bad situation rather than riding it out in the cabin, but also understand that in extreme situations, riding it out in the cabin, may be your only safe option.
We're also thinking of making a storage bag for the boom and main sail, so I can just flake the sail on the boom, disconnect the boom vang and the main sheet gear and just slide the bag over the boom and main, so that the jiffy reefing lines will still be tied in. This will save time at the boat launch ramps along with having the furled sail along with the mast secured to the mast cradles for trailering. The whole idea is to minimize time both rigging and de-rigging, so that it will be faster and easier, and that will make sure it is sailed more. There are a lot of lakes up here in northeastern Minnesota and I want to sail a lot of them along with sailing out of some north shore of Lake Superior ports and of course to sail the Apostle Island National Lakeshore that is just a little over an hour's drive from where I currently live.
They are also designing a gin-pole system utilizing the trailer winch for stepping and unstepping the mast. Sure, I'm healthy enough now to muscle the mast up and down, but I'm looking to have this boat for years and I want to be able to step this mast easily and without much fuss now and when I get older. At my age, (nearly 58), I wanted to be realistic in my being able to rig this boat easily and safely for years to come.
What's funny at the marina is that I've gotten so many compliments on this boat from owners of much much larger vessels. The traditional lines and the new gear really appeal.
I've always been impressed with Harken gear's quality and function. I tricked out a Force 5 years ago back in the early 1980's using Harken gear and on other boats since and I've just always upgraded to their engineering over the years and so have many of my sailing friends as well. To me, it's just a given.
We get some heavy air up here and you really need to be able to depower for that. I've never been a fan of roller reefing and I wanted a boom vang too to help shape and control the main, so I had to nix the roller reefing anyway. This rebuild and upgrade is totally geared for the conditions on Lake Superior and for ease of use in stepping the mast single-handed and sailing mostly single-handed. I cannot wait to see what Jason (their carpenter) comes up with.
I did a lot of research in finding a small trailerable sailboat that I could haul with a smaller SUV (I have a Honda CR-V) but also seaworthy enough to be able to handle Lake Superior. All sailboats are compromises and this boat just works for what I want to do with it.
I don't plan to use the cabin much other than to store Coast Guard safety items and misc gear. The interior is on the "back burner" in terms of restoring this stout little vessel. I am not looking forward to scraping the flaking interior paint off and repainting. I'll probably hire some teens that need some extra $ next spring for that because I'm not as agile or as small as I used to be to get into the tight spaces in my CP16. ;D
Quote from: kickingbug1 on October 12, 2012, 09:45:46 AM
hatch boards in and mainsheet at hand, always good advice
Absolutely!
Quote from: Bob23 on October 11, 2012, 08:52:49 PM
(ps Tude: Can I come to live in your shop? That place is tooooo nice!)
Sure! But you may want to ask Eric Thomas, the manager of Barker's Island Marina in Superior, WI where to store your gear first! ;D
Quote from: carry-on on October 11, 2012, 10:40:48 PM
Solid_Tude,
Sure is a good looking 16.
What size jib on your furler? How did you decide on the location of the tracks? Can you work a Genoa from that track location?
Are the tracks 18 inch? Are the tracks secured to backer blocking or just screwed to the gunwhale?
Hey carry-on and thanks for the compliment.
I'm guessing that it is a 130 genny just by eyeballing it. I did not buy the genny or the furler as it was installed by the previous owner. The furler is a CDI FF1 flexible furler and is about 4 years old. The location of the tracks are predicated on the size of the genoa you have, and for the best sheeting angles. Yes, I can work the genny from this track position and while this sounds odd at first, in practice it is sheeted in, INSIDE the shrouds. Any genny larger than a 130 would be sheeted outside the shrouds.
Yes, the tracks are 18 inches.
The tracks are through-bolted on with SS backer washers.
A 3/16 hole was drilled where the bolts for the Harken track go. Then they removed some of the floatation foam (augured through it) underneath the cockpit combing and used a coat hanger to get the #10 bolts through. They then had to use a very long ratchet extension to get the nuts on after they used over-sized SS washers or "fender washers" to back up to the fiberglass. This was a very messy and difficult instillation because of the very tight quarters and it's one reason I chose to go with these professionals that would do this part of my upgrade correctly the first time.
All new installations either use SS backer washers or made in the shop SS backing plates on the boat and were sealed with "LifeSeal" by BoatLIFE, which is a silicone/urethane blend. They use LifeSeal because it cleans up very easy and is very flexible. They don't use 3M 5200 sealant because it tears the hell out of the boat later on if you want to replace something and because it is very messy to work with and it gets brittle.
Quote from: Solid_Tude on October 12, 2012, 09:55:58 AM
I too agree, obviously, with having quality gear to sail out of a bad situation rather than riding it out in the cabin, but also understand that in extreme situations, riding it out in the cabin, may be your only safe option.
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm wondering when it would be best to ride things out in the cabin. Do you mean to anchor and then just close yourself up in the cabin? What if it's too deep to anchor? Obviously, the best approach is to avoid such situations, but I'm just trying to learn in case I ever find myself in such trouble.
wolverine 00 xj,
With appropriate sea room he probably means to "heave to" under storm canvas and go below to ride out a storm. He would, of course, maintain a 360 degree watchful eye for other boat traffic and potential dangers. At least that's how I read it.
capt_nemo
Quote from: wolverine 00 xj on October 12, 2012, 01:49:10 PM
Quote from: Solid_Tude on October 12, 2012, 09:55:58 AM
I too agree, obviously, with having quality gear to sail out of a bad situation rather than riding it out in the cabin, but also understand that in extreme situations, riding it out in the cabin, may be your only safe option.
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm wondering when it would be best to ride things out in the cabin. Do you mean to anchor and then just close yourself up in the cabin? What if it's too deep to anchor? Obviously, the best approach is to avoid such situations, but I'm just trying to learn in case I ever find myself in such trouble.
First, I don't see a question ever as "hijacking the thread", as this forum is a place for all of us to learn and be exposed to new thinking with our sport (at least I'm assuming this, as I've been lurking here for a bit to see what the dynamics are to this forum before I posted). Those of us that have been sailing and racing sailboats a long time should be happy to give any newcomer to the sport or even a fellow sailing veteran help and advice. And isn't that what this forum is all about anyway? I've only been sailing 44 years and I've learned new things about our sport every one of those years.
You are correct in the best approach is to avoid such situations in the first place, but if you are realistic, sometimes even with your best intentions, you can get caught out in a storm that comes up quickly and unexpectedly, specially on a lake like Lake Superior that can really challenge the best of sailors. Riding it out in your cabin, AFTER you've deployed either an anchor, sea anchor or heaving too, is just a safer place to ride out the worst of the storm and avoid hypothermia, which is a big concern if you sail in a cold body of water like Lake Superior. But IF you are being blown to a lee shore that is dangerous (ie rocks), yes, use your anchor and ride it out making sure that you are not dragging towards that lee shore.
If there is a lee shore and you're concerned about being set too close, place the bow into the weather (usually, a degree or two to port or starboard) so it takes the seas with the least uncomfortable motion.
Sometimes it's just too deep to anchor but you do have a few options here if that is the case as well. If there is adequate sea room downwind, you can run ahead of the seas (even under a bare pole)— always slow enough for the seas to outrun the boat — to ensure a comfortable ride. The most dangerous course of action is to let the boat exceed the speed of the seas. This can result in loss of control or broaching.
A sea anchor is another good storm tactic and keeps your bow to weather better able to ride out waves. Para-tech Engineering Company has a full line of sea anchors and I've got my eye on their "Sea Brakes" that start at $139.00. Here's a link to their site and the page on "Sea Brakes": http://www.seaanchor.com/boatbrakes.htm
Another tactic is to heave to, but that would be predicated on how strong the winds are and sea conditions of course, and then ride out the worst of it in the cabin. You can also heave to WITH a sea anchor and that is another tactic.
There are many books out there on storm tactics and if you are sailing waters that you are concerned even slightly about what to do, I recommend reading up on what to do and the various ways to do it.
One excellent book about this subject that I would recommend is written by the renowned blue-water sailing couple, Lin and Larry Pardey called "Storm Tactics Handbook: Modern Methods of Heaving-to for Survival in Extreme Conditions".
Quote from: capt_nemo on October 12, 2012, 03:02:31 PM
wolverine 00 xj,
With appropriate sea room he probably means to "heave to" under storm canvas and go below to ride out a storm. He would, of course, maintain a 360 degree watchful eye for other boat traffic and potential dangers. At least that's how I read it.
capt_nemo
Good instinct capt_nemo, you read me perfectly and it's nice to read you as well.
Gents,
I hate to be redundant, but this thread shines with greatness on so many levels!
As a rookie sailor, (second season), I appreciate the quality of instruction, pic's and camaraderie going on here!
Thanks for sharing everyone!