This is something I had hoped to never say, but I experienced a de-masting this afternoon on my 16. The hardware (cotter pin and ring) on the port side-stay apparently failed and the mast and rigging went over the starboard side. I and a friend were on board and fortunately no one was hurt. We anchored, then recovered everything and motored back to the dock. It could have been much worse.
I'm wondering if the previous owner might have installed "non marine" hardware on the boat. Anyway, after the repairs are made to the cabin top, I'm replacing all critical fittings.
Be careful out there!
Glad to hear no one hurt.
Time for all of us to double check our equipment.
If that was a ring-ding, they are known for working their way out. Many experienced sailors will not use them.
Glad not one was hurt.
Hope the repairs do not take long.
What is a ring-ding? The shrouds and the forestay on my CP 16/2 are fastened with a clevis pin and wire clevis ring that is threaded through the end of the clevis pin. Are you referring to the clevis ring that secures the clevis pin? What would you use in place of the clevis ring? Mike at West Marine recommended that I use a fisherman's barrel swivel, but I could not find one that seemed heavy enough. Threading this clevis ring onto the forestay pin each time I raise and lower the mast is a bit of a pain. Is there something easier and superior to use in place of the clevis ring?
Glad no one was hurt. I got frustrated with the little rings that go through the clevis pins. Despite how much of a hassel they were to get in, I once found one had worked its way out. I now use 1/4 ss bolts with nylon insert lock nuts, but I'm open to something bettter if anyone has a good suggestion.
You said the cotter pin and ring apparently failed, were you able to find the cotter pin and ring, or were they completely lost in the dismasting?
I incorrectly said "cotter pin", when it was actually a clevis pin held with a ring. Both of them fell in the water. We saw the side stay swinging free and just a few seconds everything came down.
Hi Wolverine - based on personal experience I don't think it's a good idea to use a threaded bolt and nylock nut in lieu of a clevis pin to attach your rigging. Nylock nuts can work loose over time, as I discovered to my horror when my swim ladder nearly fell off, and threaded bolts (at least the standard non-graded ones that are sold in the bins at West Marine) aren't designed for the shear forces that a clevis pin is subjected to - especially on the standing rigging where those forces can really be tremendous. Clevis pin secured with cotter pin is the gold standard, and when it comes to my mast falling off I'm not inclined to try anything else.....
Wes
i've always used the rings or cotter pins with the clevis. then i wrap them with silicone tape. it doesn't use an adhesive so it can be easily cut off and it also protects the sails and toes.
Thanks for telling us about your experience. Good that no-one was injured. Because of your alert, many will be checking their standing rigging.
Wes,
What makes the cotter pin better than a ring? I really don't know which is better but have used rings where a sail, line, dock edge etc. could snag on a cotter. So at the chain plates and bow sprit I prefer rings.
Do you use a new cotter each time one is removed? Bending and straightening and re-bending the cotter pin fatigues the metal. Difficult to know the limit without destructive testing.
If a ring is handled carefully, the metal should not be damaged.
Not arguing, just seeking your input.
I'm with Carl...cotter rings are fine with tape around them. just be sure to check the tape on occasion. The tape is there to prevent the rings spreading which would introduce a chance that they will come off.
With that said, I just use cotter pins and bend them as such to avoid snagging on lines, sails, etc. If too long, I cut them off.
Another idea, and skip tossed this out a few years back are closed rings. Fishermen use them for something.-not sure what..basically they look like very small keyrings, they cannot accidentally work themselves loose. In fact they are so difficult to install, you'll just cut them off when the time comes.
Regular SS bolts are a definite NO-NO. You want forged pins capable of several thousand pounds of shear force. The threads on the bolt will also eat away at the chainplate and rigging. This will eventually chew them up beyond the ability to use them.
Carry-on: actually I do use cotter rings on my boat for locations that need frequent adjustment or removal, such as the shroud connections to the chain plates and where the furler connects to the bowsprit. They save a lot of time compared to cotter pins. I am careful to inspect them before every sail.
I referred to cotter pins as the "gold standard" because I'm aware that some sailors don't trust cotter rings due to concerns about them coming off unexpectedly. That has not been a problem for me.
At all locations that are more or less permanent, such as where the shrouds and stays connect to the masthead, I definitely use cotter pins. Those areas are harder to inspect, rarely removed, and I see no point in taking even a small risk.
Wes
I didn't think about the threads on the ss bolts damaging the chain plate- good point. I guess I'll be replacing those.
Good discussion. I replaced some old cotter pins with some new rings recently on stays, and while I was at it, at the mast tang fittings as well, and after reading Wes's comments and others, think I'll go back to pins for those areas that I rarely ever check.
Being a tech I recommend only using Clevis Pins and either a cotter pin (stainless on both parts) Or using the Clevis pin with a keychain looking ring, the name we have for the are "SPEED RINGS"
One spot is slightly shifted inward of the ring, and they spin on relatively fast.
Our new name for the is "SLOW RINGS" but that is more of a joke as people usually mess them up really bad and they are hard as hell to get em out.
Cotter pins can be messed up fairly easily and can be a even bigger pain in the but to get them out......
Clevis pins have a solid shaft, and that is the way to go. the other side is personal preference. DO DO DO use some kind of locking hardware for the turnbuckles, and never turn the rigging while tightening. Under tension without a locking device will loosen the stay, and cause failure.
By locking the turnbuckles you keep the from twisting and possibly loosening all the way.
We did a test and put a rig under tension and saw a turnbuckle twist. makes your heart skip a beat to see it, even if you expect it to happen, really Crazy, Like Carl.......
Mac
"You pay for what you get." There is a reason why a marine quality pin cost so much more than a ACE bolt and nut.
How much warning was there before the mast came down? Was the hardware sawed partially away? and nobody noticed this happening?
Yep that was as bad as it gets. Good thing all essential body parts were out of the way. Did one thing fail, than another thing fail, setting up a chain reaction?
"Accident don't happen. You have to let them happen." Thanks dad.
skip.
Have thought about using these Velcro pins? see the center of the page.
(http://www.csjohnson.com/marinecatalog/p/00047.jpg)
TG
Quote from: Tim Gardner on August 09, 2012, 09:46:01 AM
Have thought about using these Velcro pins? see the center of the page.
TG
I believe the problem was with the clevis pin that attaches the turnbuckle to the chain plate, not securing the turnbuckle itself. The velcro wrap pins generally wouldn't work well for securing the clevis pin. I use them for my turnbuckles though and like them.