Every body is right.
A foil rudder is nearly as good as a new set of sails. Just installed the kick up unifoil rudder system from Rudder Craft and tried it out Friday and Saturday. There was a small craft wind advisory with winds 15-20 gusting into the 30's depending on where you were on the lake. Sailed with a small jib and a reef (only have one) in the main. At times luffed a bit of the main. With the new foil rudder I could keep control well past where the old rudder stalled. The rudder still stalled but it was a really windy gusty two days of sailing. Filled the footwell up with 4 inches of water when I was not paying attention. Left the Admiral and pup at home and had a two day blast.
It is nice not having to dismount the blade when trailering.
As per instructions practice setting and picking up the rudder a couple of times at the dock.
If you do not have a foil rudder.... I really recommend getting one.
I didn't realize that Rudder Craft is in Idaho.... there was really fast service to MT. Good folks to work with also.
regards charlie
Thanks, Charlie. Just for clarification. Is the Rudder Craft product the same as the "Idasailor" rudder I have been hearing about? When I look for information on Idasailor, I end up on the Rudder Craft website, so I'm presuming it is the same. Last I heard, this Idasailor rudder was selling for about $200, but now seems to be $295. Anyway, some clarification of this question would be appreciated. Your testimonial, as well as those of others, is quite convincing.
Thanks,
Kevin
Hey Kevin:
Yes I think that they are the same. Like you I googled what was listed on this blog as idasailer (I think that it came with a url). There is an Idasailer Marine in ID. I wonder if Idasailor Marine and Rudder Craft are co-located.i
I bought the entire setup for just over $500. I will probably buy a set of bushings now. I was not originally going to buy a tiller to save some money, but I cracked the original my first time out this year. It repaired easy enough but decided to buy the entire Rudder Craft system. No regrets.
regards charlie
Regarding the distinction between Rudder Craft and IdaSailor, here's what Rudder Craft told me earlier this year when I inquired about them repairing my cracked IdaSailor rudder:
"IdaSailor Marine inc. ceased operations in June of last year, Rudder Craft Inc. bought some of the assets after the bank foreclosed, including some equipment, patterns, intellectual property and the idasailor website. Some of the employees here at Rudder Craft worked at IdaSailor as well, so we are very familiar with your rudder, and are experienced in it's repair, but Rudder Craft inc. didn't build it originally."
They did a great job with the repair by the way.
Can anyone please explain exactly what a foil rudder is, what it is made of, and why it makes such a difference?
I'm certainly not an expert on hydrodynamics or design, but the layman's version is this: The stock rudder on the ComPacs is a flat piece of aluminum. No aero shape at all. The after market foiled rudder is curved and wider at the front and tappers at the back (imagine the cross section of an airplane wing). Foiled shapes do better through the water in all respects. They are more aerodynamic, they produce less drag, they give greater control, and they provide more lift to the boat. Think of almost all components of a boat that are in the water and you will find them to be foil shaped most of the time -- the keel, center boards, rudders (on most boats), even the hull itself has a kind of foil shape. Even sails, if viewed from above when filled with air, have a foil shape similar to an aircraft wing. Think also of "spoilers" on the back of sports cars or racers. They are not flat... they are foiled for better air flow and control. With just about anything that moves through air or water, the foiled shape is significantly more efficient than a flat surface.
Hope this helps. Perhaps one of our members is an engineer who can explain the formal theory.
Kevin
http://www.boat-links.com/foils.html
My Rudder Craft foiled rudder arrived last week and I installed it yesterday. I bought just the rudder, not the entire integrated system that they sell. It installed in 5 minutes and the craftmanship is excellent. They even had the correct hole drilled for the cord to swing the rudder up when not in use. The people at Rudder Craft were great to deal with. Some of you may have heard that they were back ordered on these (a lot of us are ordering them) and they notified me immediately that there would be a delay. They even offered me a nice discount on their total integrated system, which was more than I needed (the rest of my steering assembly is in fine shape) so I simply waited the few extra weeks for the rudder alone.
I sailed yesterday in light winds (6-7 kts). I have the 16/II model with the bowsprit, so I was not expecting a "huge" difference in the sailing qualities of the boat, but I did indeed notice a difference and I am pleased with the purchase. The helm seemed beautifully balanced to me, and tacks were a bit smoother. I don't know about the rest of you, but my boat wants to "keep turning" when tacking... in other words, she wants to fall off too far on the new tack and my old rudder had trouble bringing her back. She seemed more responsive through the tacks yesterday and she tracked nicely on a beat. I also noticed that the rudder, as promised, improved the handling of the boat at slow speeds and when motoring in and out of the harbor. The guys at Rudder Craft said that this would be a noticable improvement, and they were right. I sail out of a rather crowded mooring and I liked the added feeling of responsiveness while navigating through the other moored boats in my harbor. I'm keen to try it out in heavier winds.
I'd recommend this product to others.
Kevin
Does anyone with the kick up unifoil rudder system know how high the blade sticks up above the transom in the up position. I am going to purchase the system and am thinking about getting the mast cradle that attaches to the rudder. I am just curious to know if it will fit in my garage without a take down each time. Thanks in advance for any info.
Here is a photo of their system installed on a Montgomery 15. Seems to be a horizontal plane from the top of the bow pulpit (plus the thickness of the mast itself). I would suppose that the height is similar to the CP16
http://www.ruddercraft.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=47&products_id=153
Capt. Brian:
Mine sticks up about 23 inches above the transom, just measured it but it is dark out!
If you buy the mast crutch, let me know how it works out.
regards charlie
deisher6:
Thanks for checking that out. The rudder and crutch are on their way. I should be getting them sometime mid week. I will defiantly let you know how everything works out and will post some pics. Richard at Rudder Craft said that the cradle top is about 6". So I just had them do where it would be right above the tip of the rudder. Looks like it will have to come off each time I put it in the garage. But I do look forward to having a roller that I can just pick the mast up and roll it back and fourth for launching and loading.
deisher6,
Here are a couple of photos of the foil rudder system with the mast crutch I ordered for my CP 16. Very pleased. First photos posted so let me know if I need to re size them.
(http://i1071.photobucket.com/albums/u505/brianmillwee/7d386d18.jpg)
(http://i1071.photobucket.com/albums/u505/brianmillwee/d8d3d867.jpg)
Capt. Brian:
Thanks for the scoop and the pictures...I will probably add one next year.
regards charlie
so that rudder looks longer and narrower than the stock blade, is that true?
capt.brian ,or Charlie, do you mind give us the measurements
i had another post http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=5753.0 where i debate weather a longer/narrower rudder is better than the original rudder foiled over,
it looks like Unifoil is already doing that
Gabi, It's longer but wider. The thickest section is towards the front section of the blade, then it trails off.
ok maibe its longer and wider ,will see what the guys say, but the ratio length to width is clearly different from the pictures
my standard aluminum plate is 12'' by 20 some at the waterline
Hey Gabi:
The foil is 42.5 inches X 10.5 inches. Measured from the pivot it is 39 inches long.
I thought a flick would be nice.
Hope that this helps some.
regards charlie
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/CPYOA/100_2812.jpg)
thanks Charlie,
wow.. a picture really is worth a thousand words
Interesting picture from Charlie. He has the full assembly with foiled blade.
For my 16, I purchased a foiled rudder blade from Rudder Craft. The new blade measures 11 3/4 in. front to back and 27 1/4 in. pivot hole to bottom.
The original blade is 12 in. front to back and 26 1/4 in. pivot hole to bottom.
Very little difference in overall dimensions..but the foiled shape makes a difference.
I don't have pictures but will get some next visit to the marina.
Was I fooled or foiled? Would like some input from others who replaced the blade rather than the assembly.
Carry-on:
Hummmmm? Makes me want to go out to the garage and check my measurements again. I will tomorrow.
regards charlie
Quote from: deisher6 on December 18, 2012, 02:21:01 AM
Carry-on:
Hummmmm? Makes me want to go out to the garage and check my measurements again. I will tomorrow.
regards charlie
Charlie,
I don't doubt your measurements. From your picture, seems the rudder blade of the assembly would extend 12 or 13 inches deeper in the water compared to the aluminum blade. That is a big change which does not happen with the blade only replacement. Does the assembly sit higher in the rudder housing? If so, maybe the difference is above the waterline.
Aside...has something changed with the site? Starting yesterday, I don't get a list of "posts since last visit" and when I find a new post it is at the top of the string rather than the bottom. I've been on the site since 2007 ; first time I have seen this arrangement.
Hey Carry-on:
I doubted them and checked this morning. The measurements are correct, it does stick down further. You can see the gudgeons in the picture. It is interesting that there are two very different products.
The 'show unread posts' gives me different results from time to time. They used to disappear from the list once read, now they stay there until I select the show unread button again.
regards charlie
Hi Carry On,
No, I don't anything has changed. You might try clicking on the little star or question mark to the upper left, next to the date and time. That toggles the header with the "show unread posts since last visit" and other links. If it's accidentally clicked, that might explain it.
Carry On
My foiled rudder is the same size as yours I'm sure (though the boat is in storage and I can't check its measurements right now). However, when I looked at Charlie's great pic, I was very surprised by the difference in lengths.
I also still have an older shaped rudder that is longer, more in tune with Charlie's, that came with a previous 16. It has a crack in it, so it sits now until I can ever get around to fix that. But I will say that I had to gybe the 16 once with that rudder "on a dime" to avoid a lee shore, since I couldn't head up any tighter into a strong wind, and I was very surprised how nimble the boat's response was. It almost turned 180 within its own length. Didn't expect that with the stubby shoal keel. Perhaps the longer rudder version does indeed have some advantages, but I've not repeated that move with the shorter version, so don't really know. Either one of the shaped foils outperforms the standard blade, though. That's for sure!
P.S. My list of posts seems to be working as usual.
Well, thanks to Salty19 my view of the site is back to normal.. whatever that is. I clicked the asterisk in the upper corner, lost a picture but back in battery.
Anyway, I took a couple pictures of the rudder blades today and the blade heights are quite similar as are the pivot points.
The white, HPDE, foil is all in the water when sailing or motoring. I would say 1 to 2 inches more blade in the water compared to the aluminum blade.
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q499/carry-on/000_0150_zps375ca22c.jpg)
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q499/carry-on/000_0153_zpsc549d4c9.jpg)