Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association

    i probably should have taken care of this little problem during the winter but alas other things came up. anyway like all sailboats my cp 16 has a "loosey goosey" rudder. my question is does the mount have to be removed from the transom to install bronze bushings? and what size bushings have others used for this repair?

    hey, i found an old post on the subject so all is well. thanks to those guys

After your bronze bushings have been replaced you might want to put some HDPE washers between the gudgeons and pintles when you remount the rudder.

I made mine by cutting small discs from the lid of a plastic bucket and it made the rudder even smoother.

Best of all, they were virtually free.

The ACE HARDWARE bronze shoulder bushings, back to back are 'OilLite' and require zero lube since the they come oil impregnated for life. [If heated with a tourch, they will parcipatate oil and smoke like a banchie.]

~No, remove nothing off the transom.
~You'll need a 3/8" electric drill and a 1/2" bit that has a turned down shank for a 3/8" drill motor, as a 1/2" drill motor won't let you bore a straight hole.
~Drill a 1/2" hole clean through each leg of the aluminum casting. You'll end up drilling out the plastic factory HDPE inserts...if any are left.
~Lightly pound in 4- 1/2" x 7/8" bronze shoulder bushings so they are back to back with shoulder to shoulder contact.
~That's the bearing surface. Carries all the weight. Moment of bend and moment of torque.
~Buy 2 ss bolts that fit the bushing's bore, the right length.
~Buy 4 ss washers, and 2 ss nuts, just for fun brush on some Permatex Never~sease when you drop in the bolts.
~ I assemble nuts up 'cause if I see the threads disappearing, I know something is loosing up. But you select the orientation you like.
~Crank the nuts down till you feel some drag. When I let go of my tiller it generally stays where I put it in calm seas.
~And put the rudder casting on top-O-the transom casting.
~I guess you could flip-flop that, but that puts the tiller really low on the cockpit combing. And the rudder way down past the keel.
~I also hold my kick-up rudder down with a snowblower shear-bolt. The aquadic weeds in my harbor can kick her up.
~And lastly I have a wood screw under the tiller, between the wood and casting, that I can crank the business end of the tiller up a bit for my comfort.

About $18.00 for parts.

skip.

Skip

Nice pictures, have you painted your rudder components?  They look good.
If so what kind of paint have you used.

Thanks
Tom

Spartan asks, "...have you painted your rudder components?

Yes, I unbolted then heated and beat with a rubber mallet this aluminium casting off the hull that the 3-M 5200 sealer around the 4~1/4" holes was holding.
Vapor blasted the castings spotless with glass beads. Down to 'white metal'.
Washed the castings in a seven stage industrial gas fired, power spray washer, appling an aluminium conversion coat to the castings with finial R/O water rinse. No water spots.
Into the Dry-Off oven at 250 degrees F. for seven minutes.
Did not paint these castings the first time around the paintline. But ran the castings through the cure oven at 550 degrees F. to de-gas the aluminium castings.
Conveyed them back to the start again. Let them cool for a few hours.
Hung them and painted them in the powder booth with a Fuller O`Brian hammertone grey powder paint. A epoxy polyester blended UV resistant formula for outdoor furniture. Don't want to end up with a chalky finish.
Cured the powder coat in the cure oven at 350 degrees F. for 20 minutes. Tested the cure with 100 double wipes using a swab and MEK. All OK.

The reason for the de-gas is so the gases trapped inside the castings escape before painting. Otherwise the gases bubble up and out of the aluminium destroying the P-coat gloss surface.

Put it back together with bushings and new 3-M 5200. The 'divits' are in the factory castings. After painting, waxed her up with Mother's Wax which I never really dug out of the divits so they look white.

skip.

   As per previous post concerning a 16 cp I used 1/4 inch bushings. Total of 8, four on top and 4 on the bottom

  I think using a 1/2 bit is removing to much material and instead used a 3/8 bit with 1/4 inch shoulder bushings. I sailed yesterday in north Perdido Bay with 2 1/2 ft. seas and 15 + winds and was very pleased with rudder feel and response. I was able to let Not-a-Yacht-a roll up on her side and let the wind tickle her belly and still had good rudder feed back.

  Easy fix with a very good result. If you use shoulder bushings you don' need washers.

Buddy           

Tom:
   I don't have access to all the cool equiptment that Skip has, so I painted mine with Rustoleum Bronze over zinc chromate primer after sanding the aluminum and an acetone wipe down. It's held up pretty good...in salt water, no less.
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt260/Bob23_photo/Koinonia%20rudder%20project/Woodfoiledblade.jpg)
bob23

 thanks for the help fellas

Quote from: NAY on March 31, 2012, 01:58:55 PM
    If you use shoulder bushings you don' need washers.           

Great idea! 

My home made HDPE washers reveal my "frugal" approach and work very well but shoulder bushings are an elegant solution.

nay said,..."If you use shoulder bushings you don't need washers."

The washers are for under the bolt's hex and for under the nuts. Not 'tween the shoulders of bushings.
Just to be clear. It's all about spreading out the load and not pinching the gudgeons together...castings don't bend.

..."3/8 bit with 1/4 inch shoulder bushings..." so the diameter of the bolt is what? 1/4" ? That's .025" x 10,000 lb [ the ultimate strength of typical steel. Makes no difference if it's black iron or stainless steel ] divided by a safety factor of 4 = 625 lb to shear these 1/4" bolts.

If you can't hold the pintle in a 1/2" bore with bushings in the gudgeons, your not going to hold the pintles with a 3/8 bore and bushing either.

skip.

Thanks for the explanation Skip, definitely look good, sounds like some rocket science

Bob23 - a more pratical solution for me as well

Bob23 look at the depth of your rudder.

Does it hang down below the keel? And for that balanced feel of 'power steering', some of the leading edge needs to protrude ahead of the pintel and under the wine glass shape of the hull.

The top`O rudder is very close to the hull on mine. I have no idea if any of this makes a difference. It is what it is.

skip.

Quote from: skip1930 on April 01, 2012, 03:49:41 PM
Bob23 look at the depth of your rudder.

Does it hang down below the keel?

I noticed that the original rudder on my 1976 hangs several inches below the depth of my keel while the ones on later C 16s are about even with the depth of the keel.

The longer rudder acts as a "bottom feeler" and, when it begins to touch bottom and kick back a bit, I know that it is time to tack away from the shoal before my keel touches bottom.

That crude "early warning system" would not work with a later shorter rudder blade.

That's why I like the longer older rudder blade on my 16.

Pac:
   In speaking with Rich Hutchins a few weeks ago, he pointed out the same advantage of having a longer rudder. Mine is about 10" deeper than the keel and he assured me that it is original factory equipment.
Skip: I built my wood foil with about 2 inches forward of the original leading edge of the aluminum. But I also removed the gudgeon and reinstalled it over a 5/8" plywood pad with the back routed out to accept a downhaul line. You can kinda see it in the picture. All in all, the new foil works great but I would build the next one as you suggest: I'd have the leading edge forward of the line of the transom. But I did use the bronze bushings thas skip refers to, got 'em at Lowe's and with nylon washers between, I've eliminated lotsa friction. Last year, I added zincs because I sail in salt water. I already bought one new gudgeon for the boat.
bob23

I was just looking at some of the pics in this post and some thing stood out to me . That is the pivot bolts are upside down ,The head of the bolt should allways be on top that way if the nut falls off the bolt wont fall out .Just thought id add my 2 cents .

   im gonna follow bobs advice with the addition of two nuts on the bolts. thanks again buddy

Quote from: kickingbug1 on April 02, 2012, 09:26:54 AM
   im gonna follow bobs advice with the addition of two nuts on the bolts. thanks again buddy

Instead of two nuts use nylocs or, if you're really concerned, drill them and safety wire them.

Have been following this discussion about bushings/bolts and nuts, knowing that I have never worried about them much with the 3 CP16s I've owned.  Since I trailer sail my boats, I generally take off the rudder assembly and throw it in the cabin when not sailing.  I use 3" bronze (or brass, not certain) bolts with round heads and holes drilled through the other ends, with jump rings, cotter pins, etc, to keep 'em from falling out.  There are no washers, spacers, nuts to screw on, etc.  Simply never noticed an issue, whether using the standard blade or an Ida Sailor blade. 

Maybe I'm missing something, but for a 16' boat, I sort of regard the rudder attachment as an overbuilt assembly (for which I'm happy) perfectly suited to the task.  I think this discussion about washers and nuts applies best to to those rudders using bolts and nuts that are tightened up as Skip's great photos show.  In a larger boat I can certainly see the advantage of those arrangements, but my simple rig works, well, simply!

Jett

Fear not young Weedhopper, I still like my nuts up.
I can simply look~see over the stern and if the threads showing start to disappear, I know things are loosing up.
Has not happened for around four seasons. Still tight enough to 'park the tiller' where I left it in easy seas.

skip.

   yeah, im gonna go with the lockers---think i have a few already   thanks

     only thing i changed was i drilled the holes out to 3/8s not half inch and used 1/4 inch bolts. i think its plenty strong for a cp16. ill let you know if it wasnt the next time i sail.

  kickingbug    I like the bolts to be long enough so there are no threads in contact with the bushings
   
   NAY

Weedhopper writes once more ,In the area I work that is on heavy aircraft the rule  is heads up and anything that rotates has a chaselated nut and cotter pin installed .Any hardware that turns even a little bit will come loose after a while .Bottom line is for me if my nuts fall off Ill still be hold a tiller in my hand and not trying to find it in the bottom of the lake .

The 1/2" x 7/8" bronze shoulder bushings interior diameter (ID) is 3/8" ?
means, bolts are 3/8" right?

That's funny. Don't forget to put all electrics on one side of the wheel wells and the liquids on the otherside. Plus since hydraulic oil usually runs down hill, put the electrics above the hydraulics to limit contact. Don't fly inverted very long.

You may have seen it on the news...An 80 year old women lands plane....I work at the Door County Aeroport and last week Helen become the P.I.C. after her 81 year old husband vapor locked and died while in flight. At first sign of his troubles he called Helen up to the front righthand seat. She was sleeping in the back seats.

The twin she was handling is usually very heavy on the controls and it didn't help that John's body was draped over the yoke. After 40 minutes of flight, learning to fly the beast, she ran out the fuel on the starboard engine [Always lift to the dead engine, forget about the rudder.] and on approach the port engine quit.  The next maneuver will be a landing. She made a great landing. The first touch broke off the nose wheel and returning to the tarmac after a 50 foot high bounce the nose grazed the tarmac, the still turning props chopped through the tarmac and the plane veered left off the runway, knocking away one runway landing light, [which I replaced today], plowed through my grass, slowing the plane down to a complete stop. No fire, no nothing. Slight compression in her back. The planes main spar is twisted, engines bent off the engine mounts, twin engine eight passenger Cessna 414 plane is scrap. Cost more to fix then to replace,

John was a very nice man who flew both Murrock boys to Colorado so each could learn to live in their wheel chairs, one year apart. If your sons are racing 4 wheelers in the dirt, don't let them.

"The 1/2" o.s.[drilled bore] x 7/8" [long] bronze oil light shoulder bushings interior diameter (ID) is 3/8" ? means, bolts are 3/8" right?"  Don't know I forget. I think it's bigger. It is what it is. It's in your hand buy a bolt that slips in it. Stout enough.

skip.

Quote from: Rob on April 06, 2012, 08:20:15 AM
if my nuts fall off Ill still be hold a tiller in my hand and not trying to find it in the bottom of the lake .

Rob,

That makes sense.  

I had a Catalina 22 that had its rudder attached by fixed pins that pointed down from the the rudder so the rudder hung in its place (as if bolts were used with no nuts).  It had a flat spring clip to hold it down so it would not come off unless the spring was depressed to allow the rudder to be removed.

That set up seemed ok until one day when I was crossing a bar and a powerboat wake caused the boat to rise and then fall when it passed.  The rudder hit the bar and came off but I held on the tiller so it was not lost.

That was when I began using a small diameter line to tie it on as a safety measure in case I ever had a similar grounding happen again.

Now I am thinking of using an idea I saw on an antique cat boat that had the rudder attached using a single rod with nuts and cotter pins at top and bottom instead of using two separate bolts.

The rod was about 6" longer than the distance between the pintles so, if the rudder grounded on a swell, the rudder would simply ride up on the rod.  

That way, no load would be transferred to the transom and the gudgeons and pintles would not risk damage from the impact.

If I do that, I will use castelated nuts and cotter pins,

Pacman says,  " If I do that, I will use castelated nuts and cotter pins,"

That's a good idea. Use ss cotterpins or wire with the castelated nuts.
O`Henry Ford used castelated nuts pinned on everthing he designed.
From all his cars before the Model 'T' and Model 'A' and beyond to 1938.
He realized that everything that rattled off was genuine Ford Parts. And the public knew it too.
Additionally like little puppies, old Fords leave little puddles whereever they park.
Which is why he used 600 locomotive oil, 'cause that did not leak past the felt seals.

Anyway the one rod idea is OK as long as both bores in the casting on the transom are lined up and don't stress the aluminium.
Since I bolt my kick-up down I worry a little bit about a swell lifting and slamming the rudder down on the hard, only to tear up something on the transom.
Well can't prevent all disasters. So don't worry about anything you can't do nothing about. Ice in the bird baths today. But sunny Sunday.

Happy Easter, skip.

Pac man that is a good ideal about the longer rod replacing the bolts ,So good that today while getting the Jolly Rio ready for her slip today thought Id give her a look.It wont work on my 16 because theres only a inch of clearance going up before it hits the rubber bumber ,so Ill just let the blade fold back .Some other things Ive done to my rudder are cut a v notch aft of the pivot on the blade so it will rise higher out of the water.All so I installed line on the leading edge of the blade so I can pull the blade down in place .Right now I use a lite line that will break if it hits something , I want to install a break away cleat from Duckworks .I don't use the pinch lever on the pivot it just never hit me as OK to clamp down on the blade.Thanks once more for the ideal Iam allways looking for things to do to in prove my boat .Nows the time while shes in the garage ,Time on the water is so specail