Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association

Time to get a new motor. I was thinking about getting a 2.5 HP Tohatsu for $865 or a 2.5 HP Suzuki Outboard for $670. Both of these motors are water cooled 4 strokes and appear to be salt water rated. The air cooled Honda is also appealing, but is only a 2 HP for $818. Which outboard motor would you recommend ?

Hi Al:
   I had a Tohatsu 2.5 salt water with reverse on my old SeaPearl 21 and loved it. It wasn't a 4 stroke however but I was after light weight. I can't comment on the Suzuki. Search the CP 16 section- there has been much discussion about outboards. Some guys are quite happy with the Honda.
   I use an 1988 Nissan 8hp 2 stroke on my Compac 23. Nissans are built by Tohatsu I think or vice versa. Super dependable motor...starts on first pull nearly every time!
bob23

Any two cycle that runs well and has around 3 hp.
If your considering an air cooled, find a N.O.S. 5 hp Briggs and Straton [New Old Stock]
on the NET. It's light, and has a Fwd-N-Rev gear box. You'll want that.
I saw these U.P.S.ed out of Georgia for $700 new.

skip.

I have the 2.5hp Suzuki, it is a very nice little engine. Haven't used the 2.5 Tohatsu but I have the 6hp Sailpro on my 23. Again a very nice engine.

I'd probably go with the Suzuki... less cost and about 10 pounds lighter.

Shawn

This is a very responsive group. I also noticed previous posts on this subject. My interpretation is that a long shaft, light weight motor in the 2 - 3 hp range would be ideal for a CP-16 with a standard mount. Given that I have a rotating spring loaded mount, I think the short shaft 2.5 hp Suzuki at 30 lbs is all I need. Thanks for your input.

"If your considering an air cooled, find a N.O.S. 5 hp Briggs and Straton [New Old Stock]"

Those aren't built for saltwater.

"The Briggs & Stratton 5HP Outboard is designed for freshwater use. Salt and brackish water are extremely corrosive and can lead to premature failure of components. Such failures are not covered under the Briggs & Stratton limited warranty. "

Shawn

Oh, I thought that since it's air cooled, and if it's pretreated and powder coated well on the outside then that would be good enough for salt water. What gets wet? The bottom end. Hopfully that's sealed up and stays oily.

Of course B/S has to say something in case the thing dissolves. C.Y.A.

skip.

Take it from a salt water sailor: Nothing, and I mean nothing is safe. The reason I stay busy at work is because I work on Long Beach Island, NJ. Yep, you guessed it: The Atlantic on one side, and the bay on the other. Even the houses take a beating which I spell as income!
Bob23

 "Of course B/S has to say something in case thing dissolves."

Then why don't the Tohatsu or Suzuki have the same disclaimer?

"The bottom end. Hopfully that's sealed up and stays oily."

Isn't just what gets wet, it is the electrolysis of *every* piece of metal that is electrically connected to the part getting wet. In other words pretty much the entire outboard.

Shawn

Shawn:
   Exactly why I bought a Tohatsu 2.5 salt water version. Never had a problem, even when it submerged after a capsize on my Seapearl 21. But we don't want to talk about that. After I got the boat back to shore, I sunk the outboard in a barrel of fresh water, brought it over to my friend Harry who sells and services outboards, and by 2pm the following day, he had it purring.
   Bob23

OK sorry I said anything about the Briggs and Straton air cooled outboard.
When it's salted up. Toss it and buy another one. Cheap enough. Best for the money.
In the mean time I guess I could use it for a lunch time boat anchor.

As for the other brands, they have to deal with the same elements.
Maybe they don't need to talk about it because they plastic-coat [paint] every thing better.
How good is good? You want a warrenteed finish or a gauranteed finish? Big difference.

skip.

As always, I appreciate everyone's input and candid discussions.  Thanks Al

Had a 4 hp Suzuki, just replaced with a 2 hp Honda and it is the perfect motor, lightweight, air cooled, sips gas and better performance than the Suzuki. Also got the long shaft. Mark

Quote from: VanCura on April 15, 2012, 09:35:09 PM
Had a 4 hp Suzuki, just replaced with a 2 hp Honda and it is the perfect motor, lightweight, air cooled, sips gas and better performance than the Suzuki. Also got the long shaft. Mark

+1 on that!

I love my new Honda 2 HP longshaft.

I have an older Nissan 2.5 ffor my 16' but my big complaint is there is no neutral.  Makes it hard to slow down or reverse - you have to turn the motor around fast.

Anyway I see that Mercury appears to have a 2.5 with a neutral - in the new West Marine catalog.  Anyone know of other small motors with a neutral gear?

thanks

Like Shawn mentioned in an earlier post, I use a Suzuki 2.5.  Mine is a 4-stroke, has neutral, and hands-down is one of the most reliable outboards I've owned.  Like other very small motors, there is no reverse.  But to get that, too, add another 20 lbs or so, at least for a 4 stroke.  I accepted the trade off for a lighter, cheaper motor that almost always fires up with the first pull, even after sitting in a cold garage all winter with no "winterizing."  And in neutral, the motor stays running while flipping it 180 degrees for reverse.

I had a private message asking about O/B's for his CP-16. And he had a engine mount problem.
So I responded...

I can not make a 100% perfect recommendation for an outboard engine to hang on the transom of a CP-16.
But here I go. No more than 5 hp. No less then 3 hp. No electric. If you can handle the idea of a SeaGull British O/B...naa forget that. No parts or dealer support even though the engine is well thought out for powering sailboats. Mostly because of their special four blade prop.

A two cycle, only because two cycles are lighter in weight. When I bought my used 1986 CP-19 with a Harkin '0-0' furler from Yacht Works they hung a new zero time Mercury 5 hp two stroke short shaft from the factory motor mount. I really like this outboard. Runs well with the exception of air getting between the fuel tank hose and the 'pug-in' to the engine connection. I fixed that with some silicone Rescue Tape. That sealed things up. The 10% Ethanol has fagged out the rubbers in the crankshaft, pulse activated fuel pump, and I need a new set.

I have noticed that this 5 hp drives the CP-19 at 5.4 to 6.7 knots. About as fast as I have ever achived with all the canvas hung out in a good blow. So the sails make 5 hp?
Might be a guide to picking an engine for a CP-16. Four hp = CP-16 full speed Sail power?  We should ask the group.

The less weight astern the better and faster the boat sails. So 4hp. I will say that a gear selection, fwd-N-Rev is a must. No spinning the engine around 360 degrees for reverse. I think Nissan has that spinny thing. Briggs and Straten use to make an air cooled 5 hp F-N-R four cycle O/B that looked really good to me. A lawn mower engine. That's the ticket. Very simple.

I think two cycles have been legislated out of existence. More liberal crap! Four cycles may have an oil sump and that needs to be changed. Probably an oil pump along with a water pump. More weight. More to go wrong. And more to pay for.

The fit. I had the same problem with raise and tilt. I made an additional aluminium mounting plate that positioned the original phenolic mounting block two inches lower, and two inches further back off the transom. The two inch blocks were cut from vibration absorbing rubber. Because mine is a short shaft the exhaust port rise's out the water when I go fwd. No big deal.

This year I'm going to cut new and longer horizontial arms from my changed-out rudder blade for the motor mount and that will push the engine further off the transom. This gives me more human arm leverage to steer, and longer mouting arms will also lower the engine further into the water. I'm not worried about over stressing the mount since it is rated foir 25 hp. So let's lengthen it. Same springs, same spacers, same fasteners.

Further off the transom will allow the motor to tilt up to the rub rail easier. Presently I have to turn the engine 90 degrees to achieve full tilt. I do have pictures of the mount on CPYOA and in my Photobucket link below each post.

That's about all.

skip.

Al, consider the Yamaha 2.5 motor as well. It is 4 stroke, weighs 37 lbs and has a forward / neutral shift.
I was looking at your comparison - check out cylinder displacement as well, kind of a value of engine power.
Suzuki- 68 cc
Yamaha-72 cc
Tohatsu- 85 cc
The Tohatsu 2.5 and 3.5 share the same weight 41 lbs and engine displacement, the only difference is the higher RPM's of the 3.5 hp. to 6000 rpm.
So it may be the same block, with a bigger carb. What I am getting at is that the 2.5 may have the same low end torque as the 3.5 HP. ( Most of us get hull speed at low throttle settings.)
Also the new Honda is now 2.3 HP (57 cc)  with a larger gas tank then before.
Mike

  2 to 4 horsepower-2 stroke with neutral----reverse not needed----keep the weight down------boy i love that old cruise-n-carry

I agree with kicknbug.   

Stay small and 2-stroke if possible.

It's worth it to buy an older model and fix it up rather than to deal with these new 4 stroke outboards, IMO. 

I really loathed our old Nissan 6hp 4stroke (same as Tohatsu).  Didn't start easily, fouled plugs, vibrated badly, was loud and had no torque at lower speeds.  It wasn't in bad condition, on the contrary it was almost new.  I also think the 6hp rating was an exageration...I would beleive 4 but not 6hp.

Should we have a contest to determine who loathes his/her Tohatsu 4-stroke outboard more? Mine has let me down more times than I can count. It's particular favorite trick is clogged jets. And it's noisy, and vibrates to beat the band, just like Salty says. Unfortunately mine was well cared for by the previous two owners (damn them!) and so it's in nice clean condition and my wife doesn't understand why I hate it so. I have taken to leaving it unlocked at the marina, in the hope that someone will steal it. No luck so far.

Wes

"I really loathed our old Nissan 6hp 4stroke (same as Tohatsu).  Didn't start easily, fouled plugs, vibrated badly, was loud and had no torque at lower speeds.  It wasn't in bad condition, on the contrary it was almost new.  I also think the 6hp rating was an exageration...I would beleive 4 but not 6hp."


Did you have the proper prop on it? The torque curve of a 4 stroke is different than a 2 stroke. With the wrong prop the engine can't get up to full RPM and therefor can't generate full power output. There is a big thread online about this specifically talking about the Tohatsu 6hp engine on a sailboat.

My 6hp Tohatsu (with elephant ears prop that comes with the Sailpro) has been fantastic. Starts easily (even after months of sitting), idles much slower than the 2 stroke it replaced, drives the boat well and uses much less fuel compared to the old 2 stroke. Only time I had any problem with it was when I overfilled the crankcase slightly, the resulted in fouling the plug and poor running. The excess oil found its way up the PCV and into the carb which is why the plug fouled.

Shawn

Wes:
   That vibration could come in handy. If the 2 bolts were to "mysteriously" loosen, it might vibrate itself right off the motor mount while over very deep water...Strange how things happen, eh?
bob23

Bob - I love the way you think. But my new plan is to sell it to Shawn....

"But my new plan is to sell it to Shawn...."

Humm.... lets see... I have the Tohatsu Sailpro, a Tanaka 3hp air cooled 2 stroke with dual stage centrifugal clutch, a Suzuki 2.5hp 4 stroke, a '68 British Seagull 40+, a '69 British Seagull Silver Century Plus Longshaft (with clutch) and a '79 British Seagull Forty Plus (with CD ignition, sealed gear housing and clutch)... yeah... there is room for more. :)

Shawn

Quote from: Wes on January 02, 2013, 04:44:34 PM
Should we have a contest to determine who loathes his/her Tohatsu 4-stroke outboard more? Mine has let me down more times than I can count. It's particular favorite trick is clogged jets. And it's noisy, and vibrates to beat the band, just like Salty says. Unfortunately mine was well cared for by the previous two owners (damn them!) and so it's in nice clean condition and my wife doesn't understand why I hate it so. I have taken to leaving it unlocked at the marina, in the hope that someone will steal it. No luck so far.

Wes

My now 4 year old Tohatsu 4-stroke 2.5 hp runs perfectly, starts easily and doesn't vibrate any more than other outboards that size. Although, the previous owner bought the Tohatsu, I find it to be a fine motor so far and I've run Honda's most recently on my fishing boat.  My only complaint on it is that it tends to drip out fuel if it is put up in the tilted up position when full of fuel.  That is probably just that "O" ring in the cap that is not seating right and should be easily replaced.  For only rated 2.5 hp it pushes my CP16 over 5 knots and sips fuel.  What more do you want?

It's particular favorite trick is clogged jets For only rated 2.5 hp it pushes my CP16 over 5 knots and sips fuel.  What more do you want?

So the sails on a CP-16 make about 2-1/2+ hp?

Ethanol/oil green gelatinous material? Yep been there on the water pulling my main metering jet out and removing the stuff.
A piece of copper wire pull out of a chunk of stranded wire, ragged out, blow en out with a plastic flexible air tube. [Don't leave the dock without some].
A straw will do. A can of WD-40, anything to get things moving.

Best not to use that kind of gas with 10~15%, AKA Flex Fuel another bad liberal and expensive idea that does nothing but makes one feel all warm and fuzzy trying to do something about a nonexistent problem. Ohhh sorry I digress.

skip.

Shawn, yep I think we had the high torque prop on it (I'm trying to recall what size it actually was).   Still made little difference in performance (I tried both).  Maybe it wasn't the right prop??

It's possible our old Nissan had some issues that was causing the vibration and low power.  No matter, I'm treating the Yamaha as if it needs to last me 40 years.   Actually I'm secretly looking for a 5hp 2 stroke Yamaha but..shhh...don't tell the admiral :). 

Salty,

"Maybe it wasn't the right prop??"

That is what I think. I'll see if I can dig up the Tohatsu thread I was talking about. Basically a person tried the 6hp on a 25 or 26' sailboat and had the same complaints as you. They tried a higher thrust prop on it and it was better but still not great. When they ended up with the elephant ears prop (Tohatsu makes 2 different high thrust props for the 6hp) it changed their opinion on the engine. The 6hp Sailpro (elephant ears prop) drives my 23 just fine and easily replaced an 8hp 2 cylinder, 2 stroke.

In a nutshell with the wrong prop the engine couldn't get up to max RPM and therefor wasn't making full power. As I recall it was only getting up to something like 3500 RPM instead of the maximum of 6000 rpm. HP is calculated by (torque X RPM) / 5252. Engine is rated at 6hp at 6000 rpm. That works out to about 5.25 foot pounds of torque at 6000 rpm. If we assume a flat torque curve (unlikely but it is just for demonstration) and calculate HP...

(5.25 ft/lbs x 3500 rpm) /5252 = 3.5hp

Around what you were estimating.

The Tohatsu does vibrate more than the 2 cylinder but that is just the nature of forces balancing in a single cylinder vs a 2 cylinder engine.

Shawn

   shawn have i got a deal for you. a (year unknown) goodyear 5 horse. this thing is sweet. it sat in a corner of my grandpas cabin for like 33 years and i finally brought it home. (something to do when the snow flies. it has one thing going for it. when i was maybe 16 or so the old man tried to get it running. he thought it wasnt getting enough "spark" so he held the spark plug wire while i pulled the starter rope. well, it did have "spark". if he would have had hair i imagine it would have stood up. all he said was "might be a carb problem". i think ill try and get it running just for the hell of it. by the way he was an "oar" man.

Quote from: skip1930 on January 03, 2013, 10:42:40 AM


So the sails on a CP-16 make about 2-1/2+ hp?


skip.

I'd say the sails make a bit more hp than my 2.5 hp Tohatsu.  With a decent breeze and my custom made Sailcare fully battened main and the 130 genny fully unfurled, I've had it over 5.9 knots on flat seas several times and even have pegged it over 6 knots for a few moments.  And this was not surfing down waves either.  Best continuous speed in a decent steady breeze so far has been 5.7 knots observed via GPS.  So, I'd guess that the sails I have are making somewhere between 2.95 hp and 3 hp if I did the math right.  Hull speed is 5.0116 knots based on the 14 foot waterline, so getting more than that must be a function of a heeled boat affecting Waterline Length and Wetted Surface Coefficient in the mix.   Note, I do have the IDA foiled rudder too, which probably is a contributing factor as well reducing some side slippage and giving me better bite and speed.  At least that's my guess, but I may be wrong about this.

  we have had our 16 to 6 knots (also gps) at about 15 degrees of heel. that is with the stock jib and a new (stock dimension) main and ida rudder. i think that is all the faster a 16 can do. our 130 jib (original and worn out) just makes her heel more on a reach. the 2.7 horse outboard makes about 3.5 knots but i havent opened it up (its a 69 motor)

Some of those goodyear engines are pretty cool looking. It would likely be fun getting it up and running again, it probably wouldn't take much.

Shawn

FYI............the theoretical hull speed of a displacement hull is 1.34 x sq. root of LWL=knots x 1.15 for mph............the compac 16 is 1.34 x sq. root of 14=5.01382 knots or x 1.15=5.77 mph............on my 1978 compac 16 ,which I purchased new, I have had  various sized motors and  have found the Merc. 5HP regular shaft to work the best of all, when in a storm with waves/current/wind the extra power is great to have the extra horses...............having said that ,I have under ideal conditions experienced some hull lift  and got 6.14(GPS) mph........nies

Hey Nies: 
   Are you the same Nies who was here about 1 1/2 years ago? If so, welcome back! If not, welcome!
Bob23

Yes, the same old nies, decided I could not live without you guys........................nies

Hi guys,

I chose to equip my new Legacy (which seems to me to be pretty much the same as a 16), with a 6 hp four stroke Evinrude, for exactly the reasons explained by Nies. Whether this is the best value for money is a different thing, the prices you guys have been talking about make me drool with envy. The Evinrude cost $1860 Australian dollars. The A$ is currently worth about 1.05 American dollars. So at about $1950 US for this outboard, it isn't the cheapest outboard available here, but is not as expensive as a Mercury.

Part of the problem of a small population according to those who don't know (politicians).

Regards,

Pete H

$200 diffeerence between two water cooled models. Makes on wonder what the shortcut might be.
conner

My 1987 Suzuki 2 HP, 2 cycle pushed my CP-16 across Pensacola Bay last May at 3-3.3 knots, 19 Nautical MPG.  I had very limited fuel and no wind...  It's plenty power if you want to go near hull speed.  I've had a 40 HP, 4 HP and 2 HP Suzuki - loved them all.  The 2 HP 2 cycle is very light.

I have an old Evinrude 4 hp 2 cylinder which does just fine.  I was wondering if anyone has used a British Seagull with a CP16? http://www.britishseagull.co.uk/

Hi Guys,

I haven't used a Seagull with a CP 16, but I did use a Silver Century Plus to push an 18 foot Hartley for many years. It was supremely reliable, had plenty of power, at times it pushed the  Hartly into 40 knot head winds. This was the biggest Seagull made at the time and was fitted with a huge prop. In many ways an ideal motor for the job. BUT, and there is always a but in life isn't there.  This motor had a clutch(very handy) BUT no reverse and couldn't be rotated 360 degrees, which made some manoevres difficult, couldn't use reverse to slow down when approaching a jetty etc.  The other BIG problem for me was the inbuilt fuel tank, too small, always ran out at the most inconvenient times and was difficult to refill at sea in rough conditions, precisely when you needed the motor the most.

So if the question is will a Seagull push a CP 16, the answer is the largest ones will, the tiny little ones, I don't know about.

Would I recommend one for use nowadays, no. Too many other great options available.

I replaced the Seagull with a 9.9 HP Johnson, with FNR and remote fuel tank. I found this much easier to use and much more convenient, on my current Legacy I have an Evinrude 6HP, which has all the same advantages.

Seagull parts :- if you are thinking of using a Seagull, there is a guy in England who has spares  for sale and is the " official" dealer, just google Seagull Spares and you should find him.

I still have my old Seagull, hanging on the wall of the shed, it is an example of simple, minimalist design and engineering, meant for one purpose only, (pushing heavy displacement hulls, day in day out for ever). I start it up occasionally, every few years or so, prime it, pull it over once, then it ALWAYS starts on the second pull, (it always starts on the first pull when it has been running recently). Seagulls; you gotta luv em, but that nostalgia doesn't mean you have to use them. It's a bit like refusing to use a smart phone and insisting that engineering hasn't moved on since the wall mounted dial phone.

Regards,
Pete H

My 1987 2HP Suzuki 2-cycle, long shaft pushed my CP16 across Pensacola Bay last May getting 18.8 NM/gallon at 3 - 3.3 knots.  I had a long ways to go with very little extra fuel.  Open the throttle and it easily gets max. hull speed.  On such a small boat, light weight is the key, if you want it to sail well.

A one blade prop is the most efficient but it can't be balanced.
A two blade prop is fine but two blades need a greater diameter.
A three blade prop is the best choice. Best pitch, small diameter.
All props are a compromise.
A prop with four blades has a problem simply because the fourth blade on the hub gets in the way of the three other blades. That disrupts the water's flow.

Secondly, is a question of vibration. A three blade at 1000 rpm? well that's 3,000 impulses a minute if near a skeg or discharging toward a rudder.
A four blade at 1000 rpm? well that's 4,000 bangs a minute. Ouch!

Now what is going to change here between three and four blades is the pitch, or pitch and diameter. Both props will 'absorb' the same hp and push the same lb of water at two different rpm and two different slips through the water.

skip.