Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association

Hi, there - it's the overanxious new owner of an old CP-16 again.

Possibly due to recent hurricane rains, the boat had quite a lot of water inside (it was parked outside for last few months). I got most of the water out, using a hand pump.

Does anyone here use an electric automatic pump? What type? How flush will it pump?
How do you handle pools of water behind various bulkheads (I had to pump each separately).


And, a separate issue: the rudder tiller is delaminating. Anything I can do to fix that, or is a replacement the only possibility?

Thanks in advance!  Robert

It's in a CP-19 but I think the CP-16 has the same set-up in the stern.

The pump's snap on screen is glued to a 3 x 3 alum angle. The angle is glued to the ship's bottom. All the factory gray paint was removed so as not to clog the pump.

The pump [ Rule Pump ? from West Marine with switch; a manual/auto/test panel ] is 750 or 950 Gallon per hour. Not every much but enough gallons per minute. Discharge is festooned with a Tee fitting down stream of the hand pump and spews out one of the scuppers. The black hose is the inlet for the hand pump. I have the pump wired with a aerocraft circuit breaker, so no fuse to blow.

The only use is to pump out the melted ice water to cool adult beverages placed in there with ice for a weekend cruse.

Can't help with pumping water from behind bulkheads. Drill weep holes.

skip.

Tilt the trailer backwards till the stern almost touches the ground and use a wet dry shop vacuum to drain the keel. It's important to leave it this way for a period of time as water will slowly leach out of the concrete. Compac 16 owners in northern climes need to be especially vigilant to avoid the freeze/thaw cycle that can destroy the integrity of the keel. Ideally it
would make sense to install a garboard drain plug at the lowest point of the keel and leave it open anytime the boat sits on the trailer.

Bill
'77 Compac 16

Definitely agree with you on the keel drain plug. The previous owner didn't drain it the last winter he owned it and the water in there froze. It ended up breaking the floor in the bilge box. The surveyor never even looked in the bilge......I'll never use him again !!!! I had to rebuild the bilge box to seal it back up from the keel (which on the greatest majority of these boats is full of water within a few days of being launched. I wish my plug was allot lower on the keel but it does let me drain it enough so as to not repeat the damage done before me purchasing it.

Quote from: skip1930 on September 27, 2011, 06:58:42 AM
...  The pump's snap on screen is glued to a 3 x 3 alum angle. The angle is glued to the ship's bottom. ...
skip.

Thanks, skip, I'll see how I can hook something up.

Quote from: racer129 on September 27, 2011, 10:33:39 AM
would make sense to install a garboard drain plug at the lowest point of the keel and leave it open anytime the boat sits on the trailer...
Bill

Quote from: Allure2sail on September 27, 2011, 08:33:57 PM
Definitely agree with you on the keel drain plug. The previous owner didn't drain it the last winter he owned it and the water in there froze. It ended up breaking the floor in the bilge box. ...

Now, that's quite interesting. And scary, as I am planning to keep the boat outside for the winter. I am worried about the freeze-ups you describe...

Would any one of you have a picture or link to a picture showing installed drain plug? I have no idea how to even start such installation. A quick Interwebs search yielded a lot of noise, but nothing useful.

Thanks in advance, Robert.

(1978 CP-16)

Skip's picture is showing you the sump area (basically an area in the keel  that is a void  the extends to the bottom of the keel) in a cp19. Not a luxury that we have in a cp16, so a pump is out of the question. Your vintage 16 is similar to mine in that you can access the interior through the hatch at the back of the boat. I feed the vacuum hose into the rear keel area in front of the small bulkhead (made a clip on that bulkhead to hold the hose), lift the trailer tongue and any water that has accumulated in the bottom of the keel drains to that area. A garboard plug is a bronze fitting with a threaded drain that could be installed towards the lowest area of the keel. Search for Islander 28 and Pearson 10m keels. Both have had issues like ours. If you haven't removed the false floor (the thin cover over the concrete) yet, do it, it is pretty much pointless and traps moisture. I made a removable wood grid instead that gives me access to the keel area. The key to keeping the interior dry is leaving it open as much as possible. I never keep my hatch boards and rear hatch in if its a sunny day (screen covers to keep out varmints and bugs) and my boat is dry as a bone. Good Luck!

Quote from: racer129 on September 28, 2011, 05:22:54 PM
... If you haven't removed the false floor (the thin cover over the concrete) yet, do it, it is pretty much pointless and traps moisture. I made a removable wood grid instead that gives me access to the keel area. The key to keeping the interior dry is leaving it open as much as possible. ...

Thanks, that is useful info. This weekend I'll look at the floor/keel areas you described (hopefully it'll stop raining here). I appreciate your help.

Robert.

('78 CP-16)

I know the thru hull or transom plug may sound like a good idea, but keep in mind the interior should be pretty much dry, more or less.
Some water may get in but not buckets like a dinghy would. IMO Fix the leaks, dry out the boat well and go from there. With that said, you could put a pump behind the keel.
Rule brand are the best.A small amount of foam aft of the floor could be carved out, a wooden box made inserted in holding the pump. Or any number of other ideas.

Racer is spot on about ventilation. Any trapped humidity or sideway rain spray will evaporate rather than condense and rot the boat.

Quote from: racer129 on September 28, 2011, 05:22:54 PM...
If you haven't removed the false floor (the thin cover over the concrete) yet, do it, it is pretty much pointless and traps moisture. I made a removable wood grid instead that gives me access to the keel area. The key to keeping the interior dry is leaving it open as much as possible. ...

Thanks again for your note. I am particularly interested in your comment about removing the false floor trapping moisture. This appears to be a sound idea.

In my boat, there was a carpet mat over the keel area. Once I pulled out the carpet, there was a seemingly thin fiberglass (?) layer over the keel cement. That layer seems to be smoothly molded into the hull - not removable (at least, not easily).

Are you writing about removing the carpet I had? Or, about cutting out the fiberglass panel? Below is a picture of the floor. The cement is visible through the hole in the panel. The square piece that once covered up the opening is gone.


Thanks. Robert.

Quote from: Salty19 on October 01, 2011, 12:08:42 AM... but keep in mind the interior should be pretty much dry, more or less.  Some water may get in but not buckets like a dinghy would. IMO Fix the leaks, dry out the boat well and go from there. ...

I agree with your comment that the interior should be dry. There is a lot of water now (I sponged out some more today), but I think that is all rainwater. As a matter of fact, I do not recall much, if any, moisture when originally inspecting the boat pre-purchase. Then, it remained for another 4 weeks at the dealer - with Hurricane Irene and subsequent rains making a mess of things in the meantime. I suspect that the hatch cover was not closed fully, allowing water ingress.

I am still working on getting the keel area fully dry, hopefully I am correct about the cause.

Speaking of companionway: the edge seal of the sliding cover is rather beat, as shown below. Did anyone replace this seal? Was it easy? Source - Hutchins?

On the same photo: the teak pieces (cover track and hatchboard frame) are tired, too. Are these salvageable? Or, should I just get new ones?


Thanks. Robert.

Robert:
  That teak is very salvagable. Mine was much, much worse and now looks like this:
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt260/Bob23_photo/Lookingforwardstarboardside.jpg)
  In addition, you could make new hatch board with small ears that protrude up into the ear-shaped lips on the hatch. That helped me keep some of the rain out of my boat.
  I don't know what that seal is...doesn't look like factory equipment to me.
  I installed a Nicro solar powered exhaust fan in my 23  5 years ago. It's been running 6 to 8 months a year and still works great. It doesn't move a great deal of air but it does move something. On the foredeck is a passive Nicro vent that theoretically lets the air in.
Bob23

Robert, I was talking about the thin fiberglass cover over the concrete that you found under the carpet. It is only weakly tabbed to wood that supports the bunks. Cut it down the center with tin snips.  When that is removed depending on the amount of water that has accumulated in the concrete keel over the years you will most likely find loose sand, small rocks and flaking concrete. When I removed mine,(our boats are of similar vintage) I removed 40 pounds of loose material. This can be replaced with hydraulic cement . After I made a wood grate over the concrete to ventilate the sump (keel). You can also keep a deep cycle battery (60 pounds) in the storage locker forward of the compression post to offset any loss of concrete.  It is the nature of boating to get water in the cabin, so it is inevitable. Your job is to just keep it dry. Keep a sponge,  scoop (1/2 gal milk jug cut in half with cap, works great because it's flexible) and often tip the boat backwards on the trailer and water in the keel will run to that area by the lazarette. You're teak is okay, just needs love.  Bill

rd, I don't think that wood pictured is so bad. Brighten it up, and oil it up and you'll be amazed at how nice that wood will look.

skip.

Quote from: racer129 on October 03, 2011, 06:53:26 PM...  I was talking about the thin fiberglass cover over the concrete that you found under the carpet. It is only weakly tabbed to wood that supports the bunks. Cut it down the center with tin snips. ...

Bill: this is all very useful info. Thanks!
On my boat, the cover you are talking about (pictured in my post) is indeed very thin and there is loose material underneath. I am glad to find out that it can be sliced out. This is going to be my project soon - expecting another cold winter here in NJ, I'd like to eliminate as much moisture as possible before the freeze.

I like your idea of a wooden grate. If you have a picture, please post here (or email to me if you do not have a hosting account).


Bill and Skip: thanks for the note about teak. It's amazing that it can be fixed up. I'll look into it.  I do have the Don Casey mega-book and expect to find reconditioning instructions there (though the volume is information overload...)

Best regards, Robert

(CP-16 in Northern NJ)

In the old days the swabbies on the knees would holy-stone the teak decks back to an acceptable surface. Grinding the decks smooth with brick like rocks, using more salty sweat then sea water . I think that was to enhance the semens love of the sea and of the ship.

'Don't do nothing for me.' But teak can be coxed back to better then new.

skip.

Robert, not tech savvy so a picture of the grate is a no go. It's simply three or four poplar 1x2 boards cross beam and 5  1x2 boards evenly spaced lengthwise in the shape of an "arrow" to fit into the narrow forward area between the bunks. Once built it should be removable to access the bilge area. It should extend far enough under the companionway to support the porta pottie sliding in and out. Bill

Thanks, Bill!

By the way, I found that I am getting most of the water out by letting the trailer "kneel": the tongue is almost on the pavement and the boats is leaning forward.
Water is slowly seeping into the forward compartment and I use a shop-vac every few hours to get the accumulation out. By now, the visible top of keel cement is dry - I feel much better.

I appreciate the info on the grate; I'll try to build something like that. Did you finish the poplar with something, or did you leave it raw?
Also, when you cut out the floor cover, did you get it out completely, bunk-to-bunk, or did you just slice an opening?

Regards, Robert.

(CP-16 in Northern NJ)

Robert, After cutting the floor down the center,  lift both pieces up from the center and they should detach from the underside of the bunks. Vacuuming the water from the top front of the keel is just the tip of the iceberg, I'm going to assume the keel is full. Try tipping the boat backwards and let the water accumulate at the rear of the keel. You'll get more water out of the keel/bilge. Poplar is porous so prime and paint. Bill

Thanks!  Robert

I'm working on many of the same problems on a late 70's C16.  The present owner is not quite ready to sell as he has some other issues on the boat that he will take care of before I purchase it.  In the mean time I get to dream about what I will do to the boat after it it is officially mine.  [See: Taking the brakes off a C16]

The cabin stiffener has turned to rot on the port side.  Brown water leaks out of the liner at several previously used holes that have been sealed at the deck but not underneath. After over three years of outdoor storage on the trailer, a bunch of water entered the boat.  Judging by the stains, the source of much of the water is from under the port wood strip that the acts as the slide for the hatch.

My local West Marine did not have suitable strips to replace the two hatch slide wood pieces so I opted for a temporary repair.  I noticed that a younger C16 in the yard has original appearing wood strips that have small arches, at the deck, between the mounting bolt locations.  These let water escape the wood trim periodically along the run rather than like mine that wants to channel the water all the way to the end of the wood strip where the wood has deteriated the most: my original also gatherers much more water at the leak.  My temporary repair (until I can take the wood off to sand and varnish) is to place rubber "O" rings around each bolt.  These "O" rings are also filled with that mostly good 2400 product so that I can easily remove the whole thing when I can do a proper repair. I need to get the boat through the winter, DRY.  I might also get a chance to sail the boat before winter storage, as is . . .  When I get to do a proper repair, I may very well use rubber "O" ring idea again. 

Shades of Citroen hydraulic repairs . . .

I'm dealing with similar problems on a late 70's C16.  I found the biggest source of cabin water of the boat I'm about to purchase is through-the-deck leaks on my port side wood strips that guide the hatch slide, based on the inside stains from the rotted wood stiffener.  This boat has been on a trailer stored outside for three years and had accumulated gallons of water in the keel.  While I get to dream about sailing and dream about modifications [see recent post about "turning the brakes off"], I have the opportunity to tackle vital repairs.

I removed the wood strip and placed rubber "O" rings around each through-the-deck bolt.  I also filled the "O" rings with that pretty good 2400 product so that I can in the future take the wood off again and do a proper repair of sanding and varnishing. A nearby younger boat has arches at the deck between the bolts in the wood strip to facilitate drainage: mine has major wood deterioration at the down hill end of the wood strip.

Quote from: Citroen/Dave on October 08, 2011, 11:52:56 AM...
Shades of Citroen hydraulic repairs . . .

OK, so when you turn the engine off, does your CP-16 sag to the ground?

;-)    Robert.

Quote from: racer129 on September 27, 2011, 10:33:39 AM
Tilt the trailer backwards till the stern almost touches the ground and use a wet dry shop vacuum to drain the keel. It's important to leave it this way for a period of time as water will slowly leach out of the concrete. ...

Hi, Bill,

I had some time today and went to town with the boat. It looks like no more sailing this season anyway. The local pond, Greenwood Lake, will be drawn down starting this Tuesday - no more water.

As per your advice, I tilted the boat all the way back. However, I decided to restore it to level right away - even though I blocked it in the back with a plastic box, the bulk of its weight seemed to be supported by the bow hook. It looked like it was going to pull out of fiberglass. I got scared.

(http://teamcattwo.rdwalker.com/pix/2011_09_24_ComPac16/draining.jpg)

Instead, then, I started ripping out the floor cover over the keel. Indeed, it was still quite moist there - and the top layer of cement was very much crumbled.  I hope that allowing the interior to dry over next couple of months will reduce the possibility of water freezing in the keel.

(http://teamcattwo.rdwalker.com/pix/2011_09_24_ComPac16/cleaning.jpg)

Question: when you were ripping out the floor, what did you do about the support for the cockpit? Did you stop your demolition there, or did you continue all the way to the lazaret?

(http://teamcattwo.rdwalker.com/pix/2011_09_24_ComPac16/support.jpg)


Thanks, Robert.

Sorry for the repeat. I did not realize there was a page 2.  I'm still very new to the post and the C16.  I growing to love them both.

Dave

Robert, Stop at the cockpit support. When you tilt the boat backwards there is a point where the boat will be balanced with no undue stress on the bow eye. These boats have been lifted by the bow eye and the two rear cleats. Chip away at the loose concrete till it is solid. At that point weigh what was removed and replace with fresh concrete or place a heavy deep cycle battery forward of the compression post (Compac 16 like additional weight forward counterbalancing your weight in the rear of the cockpit).

Robert, Make sure the wood block on the inside of the hull behind the bow eye is not rotten. If not put some fender washers under the nuts and tighten them down. Bill

Bill, thanks again for your comments.

Funny enough, not seeing your note, I posted a question about replacing the bow-eye U-bolt. Mine seems to remember better times.
If you care to add your $0.02, here is the thread:
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=4658.0 (http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=4658.0)

I appreciate your and everyone else's help here. I'll keep you posted on my progress with getting the wet keel sorted out. By the way, the section I exposed so far is now much drier, all surface moisture is gone. I'll be slicing the rest of the floor cover off sometime this week.

Robert, Good to hear. The bow eye is an easy repair. Call Gerry to send you one . Bed with 5200. The more you work on your boat, the more confidence you'll build, the more attached you become. Bill

Robert,
I've got a CP-16 in the same shape as yours.  All the comments here have been extremely helpful.  I tilted mine up today, drilled a 1/8" hole in the keel and watched as water dripped out.  I knew this was a project boat, but what I didn't know was how little I know.  This site is just great.
Al Curtis
Winchester, VA