Hello everyone, I'm currently a cp16 owner and sailing my cp16 has inspired my dad to get his own com pac...except he wanted something a bit bigger so he decided on a cp23. So we have been looking for a while and finally found one that seems to be in pretty good shape. It's got nice new bottom paint and tons of add ons. I do have a couple questions/concerns though that I would appreciate some advice.
First, then trailer the boat is on is made for a power boat and it was rigged up for the cp23. It's a float on trailer which I don't think makes much sense for a boat this size but the ramp we will be using a plenty steep so that shouldn't be a huge problem. But the supports on the side of the boat are flat. They don't hug the hull like the curved supports on my cp16 do. Do you guys think that will be a problem? more specifically will it put to much pressure on the keel on on the points where the hull sits on them? I'm including pics at the end here so you can see what Im talking about.
Second, where the shroud attachments go on the hull, it seems like they where damaged...every single one looks likenthe one I'm go to post... All six of them. Isnthis just basic wear and tear or is this more serious?
Also, any other specific things I should look for? I did all the usual stuff like check for soft spots and checked the bilge (about an inch of fresh water in there. Probably from rain. Did find a couplemsmall leaks in the cabin top but nothing serious.) Etc.
Thanks in advance!
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/Frantic82/4c1f65ba.jpg)
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/Frantic82/d54c1e46.jpg)
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/Frantic82/d54c1e46.jpg)
Congratulations to your Dad on getting the 23!
Concerning the trailer bunks: they are not designed to support the weight of the boat...the keel rollers do that.
Concerning the chain plates: well, I'll wait and see what your pic shows.
Check out my pics on the link below for a shot of my boat on her trailer.
BobL
Frantic:
I'll echo Bob's note. My 1985 23/2 sits on a LoadRite powerboat trailer. It has no bunks at all but instead 4 pads which sit on 4 posts. No problemo...the boat sits on her keel.
If the chainplates are twisted and/or bent, I'd replace 'em. Can you post a photo?
bob23
As far as the bunks go what you are showing is normal. The bunks just hold the boat steady. I ve never been a fan of keel rollers for such a heavy boat so I used a 2x12. We just drive ours on to the trailer but it could be winched up too. My trailer bunks have three supports on each side so it does have a bit of a curve.
I made a couple of videos about building the trailer - here s one http://youtu.be/wYkU3GsdOGc Notice how high I built the keel guides - works well for us.
Can t see anything about the chain plates - but Bob23 is right - just replace them it you have concerns - having six of them makes a catastrophic failure unlikely- I have seen much larger boats with only two.
The leaks are probably from the bolts holding the hand rails on.
All and all the 23 is a very sweet boat - I may be a bit biased though -- Matt
Doh! Didn't realize I put the same picture twice, sorry! :)
Thanks for the replies. Very helpful. I feel much better about the trailer now. So, you guys ever have any trouble retrieving on a low tide w/o rollers? Do you just wait for high tide?
Here's the missing pic:
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/Frantic82/1d41cfae.jpg)
The chain plates themselves are fine I think. It's the "slot" they go through that I'm concerned about. I feel like it could maybe lead to future problem...but maybe not. I don't see any cracking or anything that wouldnseem to indicate that but it's always best to be sure.
Chainplates are fine.
In fact, I was at the factory this am getting my new rails. I have a twisted chain plate on my 19 and I ask about it. Matt said he would just use the claw of a hammer and bend it back. I asked if he was serious and he said yea. It's the bolts the could fail, not the plate.
Frantic,
Congrats to your Dad for finding and considering the Com Pac 23. I truly wish you luck.
If you're going to winch the boat up onto the trailer, I feel that you should perhaps have some outdoor carpeting covering the bunks. It seems like the carpeting will protect that new bottom paint from getting scraped as the keel slides over the bunk upon launching and retrieving.
I'm no expert, but regarding the chain plate, wouldn't you want to somehow patch up the area where the plate goes through the hull and deck joint? From the photo I get the impression that if the boat heeled enough or had some heavy wave action, you could have water coming in through there.
Just my observations from the photos. See what the other guys think.
Looks great.....hope this works out for you.
Robert
Hey, thanks again for the responses.
Those gaps are definitely going to be filled with something. Don't know what yet. Maybe silicone. Also, we will probably redo where the keel rests and make more of a proper keel guide. Adding carpeting is definitely going to be done.
Hitting then chain plate with a hammer? Well if the guys at Hutchins say it's ok I guess it is :)
great - finding a 23 - a bit of work - fun doing it - but . . .
. . . will bring hours of joy
best wishes on your projects
mr toad
Just an observations: I don't think Billy's info meant to "hit em with a hammer", but use the claw end to bend them back. What do you think, Billy?
BobL
good looking boat! before you break out the silicone, however, you might want to investigate this site http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects
this guy has some very definite opinions regarding the use of silicone in a marine environment :) of course, you just might find some other folks who pretty adamantly support the opposite view.. funny how that happens in life! jt
My 1981 C23 had the same mastic type sealant around the slots for the chainplates, and was leaking into the interior. The slots are cut very close to the inside of the flange joint so are not sealed as well as other areas along the flange. It's easy enough to remove the chainplates, clean out the slots and fill the hull/deck joint with some 5200 to seal the joint. If you can remove the teak batten along the inside and excavate/seal it from here also, even better.
I don't think it's necessary to seal around each chainplate/slot per say, just flush it out on a regular basis so debris does not fill it up and lead to crevice corrosion. If you seal this slot I would not recommend silicone.
Regards, Chris
C-23 Dolce
Yes, he meant to put the claw of the hammer around the top of the plate and BEND it back. Not hitting it with the head of the hammer, even though these boats are probably tough enough to take a few strikes from a hammer.
So Bob, when would be a good time for me to come take a look at your Pilot House and have you take me sailing? :)
I'll be out on Lake Tarpon this Sat. with the West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron and then out again on Sunday with my church for a picnic at Anderson Park. You are welcome to come along on my 19 either day!
Here is a link to the W.C.T.S.S. website in case you didn't know about them.
http://ftp.ij.net/wctss/wctss/
I may be in the minority here, but I would be very concerned about anything that compromises the strength of a chain plate. They carry the full force of the sails, and if one fails in a strong wind you'll be very lucky if you don't lose your mast overboard, which is an experience I desperately hope never to have. If any of those chain plates have been bent out of shape I would replace them asap. They are not expensive - Hutchins has the CP 19 bobstay chain plate for $17 and the others are probably not much more (Matt or Gerry could tell you). Bend it back into shape with a hammer? I don't think so.
- Wes
it's not the chain plates that will fail but the bolts connecting them to the hull and the pin connecting the plate to the standing rigging. I know it sounds sketchy but when Matt Hutchins, the guy who has been building these boats his whole life, told me that I trust him.
I bet you can look long and hard and not find an instance of a failed chain plate. The connectors are a completely different story.
When I removed my chainplates, on one I found a very fine transverse hairline crack across the top bolt hole, from crevice/stress corrosion. I think I have a photo of it somewhere (I used the serviceable portion of it for another project). The backside of this particular chainplate was rusty because the sealant had failed years before.
It is my experience that SS chainplates break where they pass through a deck or other locations where the sealant has broken down. This happens most often in an area of stress concentration, bend, or weld. The SS mounting bolts can have the same condition, so it is a good idea to remove, clean, and re-bed chainplates as a matter of preventative maintenance. Bronze, on the other hand, is great- I would love to go with bronze chainplates someday...
Regarding bent/twisted chainplates, this has happened to me before when raising the mast when the lower end of the turnbuckles bound on the chainplates as they rotated around. I just straighted these with two crescent wrenches- similar to using the claw of the hammer I suppose. If this happens too many times I could see this weakening the metal so you will want to have a good look at any bent ones.
Chris
C-23 Dolce
Seems like Bronze, although corrosion resistant, would not have enough strength in tension. SS is MUCH stronger although it does corrode over time.
Lots of good information here. Thanks everyone! Looks like we are going to go pick it up tomorrow :)
Congrats to your Dad!! Boat looks real nice!
I'm with Wes and in favor of replacement if in doubt. You do not want them to fail--granted the 23 has 3 shrouds on each side so a failure may only mean dropping sail and motoring home.
Bolts too.
Billy, I'm a little dumfounded that Matt would just bend them back into shape. Surely he knows a thing or two about it, so who knows? Could be a waste of money. Could be a judgment call once he looks at it. Could be Wes and I are suffering from paranoia. Nah...I'll go with judgement call.
Hi:
Each time a metal plate is bent it loses some of it's original strength properties, sorry but straighting it out does not restore it to it's original strength. I know it is hard to believe but a stainless steel bolt or plate is not as strong as a regular steel plate or bolt (look it up on the internet). It is used heavily in the marine industry because it is resistant to corrosion, not for it's strength. I know the stresses put on a chain plate are well below it's failure level but I myself would not straighten and reuse a bent chainplate. The price of a chainplate is very small compared to the damage that could result if it did fail. I find it hard to believe (no, I'm actually surprised) any engineer would tell you to put a hammer to it and straighten it out then reinstall it. I've been doing mechanical design work for 25 years and I'm familiar with 303, 304, & 316, stainless steel material properties......simply stated, I'd toss it. That's my two cents worth.
Best of luck with you new boat......
Bruce
just read a story in sail magazine about a couple circumnavigating when a chain plate broke and they lost the top half of the mast while hundreds of miles out at sea.
i have a bent chain plate on my 19 that will be replaced this winter. i didn't even try to bend it back for fear of weakening it more.
I think that we are talking about two different types of bends: I was referring to the twisting- above the slot level- that can occur when the TB's bind on the chainplates while raising the mast. I believe that this is what Matt referrs to when he talks about straightening with the claw of a hammer.
Looking back at Frantic's photos it appears the chainplate is bent/reoriented in a new forward direction. This would put an unusual strain on the chainplate particularly in the area of the upper bolt hole. I am not even sure how one would go about straightening a chainplate like this. Maybe someone tied a spring line to it at some point?
Chris
Dolce C-23
One last word to add to Bruce's. Nearly all stainless steels work harden, meaning as they bend, they lose malleability. This is accompanied by increasing brittleness, leading to "stress or fretting corrosion failure".
BTW, Almost all of the stainless steel used in boat and shipbuilding is used above the waterline. Stainless needs to oxidize to create the corrosion resistant layer exposed to whatever environment it's in. Immerse it in water (no oxygen) and it will fail much sooner than in air.
This corrosion resistant layer is broken when the steel is bent beyond it's yield point (the point where it remains bent). It then forms a new layer from the newly exposed surface, gets bent again, etc. This action is sometimes known as "Crevice corrosion cracking". Happens in all metals that oxidize.
Enough forensic metallurgy for today. Replace the chain plates!
TG
Ok so. The boat is now at the marina sitting on the trailer. We are going to change a few shrouds and chainplates. Aside from that everything is ok..except I really must know, do some of your really trailer these around? How do you get the mast up? Wow was that hard to do! Coming from a 16, where raising the mast is cake, this seemed almost impossible! Hell, we even tore off the mast step the first time we attempted to raise it(no real damage thankfully, just needed new screws) and we had three people? I'm sure we must have been doing something wrong... Finally on the third try we got it up but it took us about an hour. Thank goodness we can keep the mast up at the marina! FYI.. When we raised it we had all the shrouds attached except the forestay. We walked the mast back, put in the pin and had one person pulling the forestay while 2 people lifted the mast. So what did we do wrong here?
You could not and should not have the forward lower shrouds attached. The aft lowers and upper shrouds do not even need loosening upon lowering the mast. I back off on my backstay and the forestay.
I raise my mast easily with 2 people. First I tie an extension line on the jib halyard, usually a piece of 3/4" line so I can get a good grip. Make sure the loose end of the halyard is cleated off well to the mast. Before raising, make sure all lines are led correctly and nothing is gonna get tangled. My helper is in the rear part of the cockpit and starts the raising. At the same time, I'm pulling hard on the line I mentioned and as soon as the mast has some angle to it, I can take all the weight. He is making sure the mast doesn't go sideways while I pull and up she goes. It's important to do this fast so the more vertical the mast gets, the shrouds are keeping it from going sideways.
It's really not too hard. The trick is making sure all lines, shrouds and stay are correctly placed, not tangled and the mast is pulled up quick before it can start to sway.
You should rebed that mast step. Just a few screws are not enough. Rebed in 4200 caulk or something similiar to prevent water intrusion into the raised deck area which supports the weight of the mast.
Bob23
Thanks, ya, we actually bolted down the mast step all thenway through into the cabin with a piece of starboard as support. Worked well.
I'm not clear on which shrouds tom leave disconnected. We eventually disconnect the forward side stays and left the rear stay connected. Where we supposed to remove the rear side stays?
Also, I've never dealt with a rear stay. Our is a bit slack... Is that normal or should it be tight? Also, we have a roller furling system. It appears a bit loose to me. How do I get to the turnbuckle that's in side the furled?
Thanks again for all the help everyone! This boat is making me crazy lol... I really appreciate the simplicity of my 16 these days :)
I find it easier to remove the forward and the main side stays. The back side stays can remain attached with no problem.
Not sure about the forward stay under the furler, but the foreward and aft should be tight. A baggy furler makes the jib too full for heavier air. Weather helm improved after I tightened mine.