After many failed attempts using an in hull transducer - Compac hulls are too thick - and giving up on the lead line I found a very cheap Horizon depth finder at a marine sale. I have tested it and it works great thrown over board so now its time to suck it up and drill a hole - ye gads - in HideAways bow.
I thought the convenient flat space under the vee berth in front of the head would be perfect but it seems to be about two inches thick and comes out on the vee of the hull. The other two 23 Compacs in the club have the transducer installed slightly off center of the hull in front of the keel. This angles the transducer sideways a bit.
I see no other solution but I wonder how much the angle affects the accuracy of the device. Does anybody have experience with this? Matt
Matt,
Heel the boat and the transducer is on an angle. It still works. It reduces the maximum depth at which it will give a reading. So if you are in a few 100 feet of water and need the depth for navigation reasons, you'll have to reduce heel for a moment.
I had two thru hulls for the head intake and discharge fore of the keel so I put the transducer on the port side in the flat spot which is under the bunk at the widest part of the hull. Speed is on the starboard side. On a port tack I can put her over to the point where add some waves and the transducer is out of the water. Get some wild reading then. Otherwise its fine on anything short of rail in the water heel. Where fine means it reads OK down to almost 100 feet when heeled way over. It reads down a lot further if the boat is upright.
If you have the room to put it forward of the keel that is a fine place for it. Its nice to know the depth in front of your keel even if it only gives you an extra few seconds at very slow speed. At that point in all but the cloudiest water you can just look at the bottom.
Curtis
When I bought Koinonia, she already had one installed to the starboard side of the aft section of the keel. The hull is about 3/8 inch thick back there and kind of flat so there is no angle issue.
Matt: Thanks for the heads up about hull thickness and it's affect on non through hull transducers. I was gonna remove my thru- hull one and replace it with a bond-to-the-hull one but how thick is too thick? I would much rather know the water depth ahead of me a bit than behind me.
I would really love to have no thru hull openings in my 23 but alas, such is life.
Bob23
Curtis, That flat spot forward of the keel is where I glued the others and would be my first choice for the thru hull but there is no flat spot on the exterior. The hull begins to curve which would leave a gap. I suppose I could glass in but I really hesitate to do that.
We have been using a lead line for many years to scope out anchorages but a lead line is difficult to use underway for navigation.
Bob23 I have heard there are tranducers that can be mounted up to 20 degrees rise glued inside but I have never found one.
What got me thinking about all this was the the test I did in a slip showed the depth at 47 feet - Ha At most these slips are six feet. Turned out the transducer was nearly horizontal as it hung over the side.
I m dreading cutting the hole, fortunately I have engine work to do first- You know those little screws used to drain the gear box on an out board? They have washers --- don t lose the washers if you fail to put them back water gets into the oil. And if you fail to tighten the lid on the can of bad oil you put in your pickup bed then leave it to roll around a week before you in vestige the smell you have a real mess- Just a rumor you understand - it couldn t have been me that did that--right
Well ain't no big deal. Two~2 inch dia holes drilled through the hull six inches in front of the keel on my CP-19, and six inches to either side of the centerline of the boat positions my Raymarine ST-40 Bi-Data unit. One instrument is for sounding depth and the other is a paddle wheel [you can pop it out from inside the boat while still in the water to remove Zebra muscles if the paddle stops turning.] Here are the pictures. Ohh a 16" x 16" hatch behind the compression post sure makes the job easier. You'll have to remove a little sound deadening foam to find a clean bottom to place the instruments. I rented a hole saw from Ace and had it back within 1/2 hour...no rental charge. Cool!
Paddle wheel on the port side. Depth on the starboard side. Try not to purchase a depth sounder that is a big huge blob hanging down from the hull. Who needs more drag through the water? Just goop both instruments up with 3M-5200 slow set and screw down the nut a little more then finger tight. Not a drop will leak into the hull.
The plug from the hull I used as a washer to hold the pin in my trailer extension slider tube up just a little bit...the pin seams to bind if it's allowed to fall all the way down. That brown ring holding the pin up is the 2 inch plug from the bottom of the boat. I never cleaned the Marine-Tex off the bottom of the keel after gluing on my saw cut 6mm marine aluminum KEEL BOOT. Shame on me. But can't see it when it's in the water. LOL.
skip.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/b1f4cfe9e3dd319550f49292216b74a20_m.jpg)
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/cf2ea2a879f039df6940e071183349f30_m.jpg)
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/reunion3130-1.jpg)
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/ComPac%2019/DSC00404.jpg)
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/reunion3110-1.jpg)
I know about those rumors, Matt. I'm sure you are not speaking from experience. It is also rumored that after changing the oil in one Toyota truck, failure to replace the filler cap makes a terrible oily mess under the hood which creeps up the winshield as one drives. It's just a rumor also.
I didn't like cutting the hole in the bottom of Koinonia, either. But she still floats so I must've done something right, right? Be sure to coat the exposed fiberglass with epoxy to seal it up. But you already knew that.
Bob23
Mine were already installed when I bought the boat. The depth is on the starboard side it is off then centerline on the starboard side, as I recall, maybe slightly forward of the keel. The speed log is on the port side, just forward (internally) of the mast support bulkhead, with access in the first V-berth locker forward of the bulkhead. It seems the depth is fairly accurate, although my only verification is leaving it on and jumping off the boat for an approximate measure in shallow water. The speed log does not seem to be accurate, shows a wide disparity between a port and starboard tack when close hauled.
Know what you mean about hating to drill those holes. I've had an installed auto bilge pump in since last fall, just haven't drilled the hole for the discharge line. Have never had a drop of water in the bilge to date, but you never know...
Quote from: HideAway on April 23, 2011, 08:24:06 AM
Curtis, That flat spot forward of the keel is where I glued the others and would be my first choice for the thru hull but there is no flat spot on the exterior. The hull begins to curve which would leave a gap. I suppose I could glass in but I really hesitate to do that.
What I meant was the flat spot on the exterior just off to either side. Just forward of the keel is flat but this is where it is very thick and the interior above it is unusable - under the head if I remember. I have the head intake and discharge where Skip shows his transducers in his photos. If I were smart I would have just widenned one of the existing holes for the depth transducer and put one of the head hoses further back.
Most of the shoals in Nantucket Sound that I pass over are 15-20 feet (coming up from depths over 100). Those don't even matter much for a boat with under 3 foot draft since it just means choppy waves when conditions are rough. The few 6 foot shoals do matter a lot more. Entering or leaving Nantucket Sound by way of Polluck Rip, the 15 foot shoals do matter when the ocean waves are running high. That chop can be really nasty but in good visibility you can see the chop on either side of the channel before you head into it.
A look at our local charts shows why a depth sounder is handy to have.
(http://www.faster-light.net/remote-access/image/50E-01.png)
(http://www.faster-light.net/remote-access/image/50E-02.png)
btw- These are old charts and the second is no longer at all accurate. The point is that there are a lot of 1s and 2s and those are in feet. The white is deep. The blue is under 6' depth. The green is above water at low tide. Tidal range at that time was 4 feet inside the Bay and 8-9 feet in the ocean.
Here is the outside of Polluck RIp Channel.
(http://www.faster-light.net/remote-access/image/13237-01.png)
Quote from: HideAway on April 23, 2011, 08:24:06 AM
I m dreading cutting the hole, [...]
That is definitely the hardest part of this job. Once you have a two inch hole in the hull there is no turning back.
Here is the hole before putting a transducer in.
(http://localweb.orleans.occnc.com/photos/thumbnails/2003/20030504-boat-jobs/small-photo02.jpg)
And this is the block of wood on the inside.
(http://localweb.orleans.occnc.com/photos/thumbnails/2003/20030710-boat-work/small-photo15.jpg)
I used a block of oak and tapered the sides as much as I could with a table saw. There are a few layers of mat and cloth and then the block and then one layer of mat and cloth over the top. I used epoxy. I drilled slightly oversize, epoxied the inside of the hole and redrilled.
Curtis
btw - If you forget to look at your depth gauge this is what can happen.
(http://localweb.orleans.occnc.com/photos/2002/20020813-sail-to-nantucket/photo01.jpg)
We have similiar depth conditions here in The Barnegat Bay in NJ. I once got Koinonia hung up on a submerged former island. They are on the charts but are never uncovered so you can never see 'em. There are a group of 5...I know where 3 are.
Bob23
Matt, I feel the same way about cutting holes in the hull. I installed a hawkeye in hull transducer forward of the keel. It is off center but I puddled the epoxy with a little clay dam and aimed the transducer straight down. So far its working fine.
Bob,
Kinda reminds me of what they say of Don Streets cruising guides. Don knows where all the rocks and reefs are in the Caribbean because he's sailed there so long that he's personally bounced off most of them.
The big former island in our parts (other side really, Cape Cod Bay side) is Billingsgate Shoal, formerly known as Billingsgate Island. In Eastham there is a spit with one road and a row of beach houses that are very vulnerable in a storm. The name of the road is "Harms Way".
I've taken a gander at the section of chart 12318 covering Barnegat Inlet and yes it is an interesting entrance. I take it that is the preferred way to reach Tices Shoal is Barnegat Inlet.
Curtis
it looks like the 19 has a flatter bottom than the 23. There is a noticeable rise on the 23s. Still the best place to install it though. I did some reading about sealant and decided on 4200 over 5200. The 5200 is for things you never have to remove, although there are solvents now from what I read 5200 is very difficult to remove. The installation instructions advised not to mount the plastic transducer in wood because the wood may swell and crack the plastic. I have a water tank in front of the head but there is still room for the transducer.
Those charts look a lot like what we have too. Tampa bay, as large as it is has a depth of only 12 -15 feet so when the wind blows off the gulf it can get nasty quickly as we found out recently. it was last surveyed in 1856 - a real confidence builder that. Boats drawing 5 feet spend most of their time in the channel and sometimes they have to wait for the tide to get into our marina. A boat drawing 6 foot is a waste of money.
It will be a couple of weeks before I can install the depth finder then I still have the engine issue and a storm damaged Bimini to fix before we launch again.
Linda s sail repairs held up fine on the main so she s on to the jib next.
The thickens of Hull dos not mater
What will disturb the signal is air or a Cord hull
I think the easiest way to address this proplum is to use PVC pipe.
Cut to mach the curve of the hull, don't try to go Thu on the center line of the boat
Seal with 5200 or smilier
The pipe should be vertical and long enough to keep the head from hitting the hull
Mount the transducer in a end center of the cap
drill two small holes in the cap
fill the PVC pipe with water and plug the two holes
this way there is no hole in the boatand the most water that could leek is about a cup
hope this will help
David
Brackish, you stated, " It seems the depth is fairly accurate, although my only verification is leaving it on and jumping off the boat for an approximate measure in shallow water. The speed log does not seem to be accurate, shows a wide disparity between a port and starboard tack when close hauled. "
My speed paddle wheel which also drives my distance log appeared to me to be a bit off as well. On a perfect sailing day out in the middle of The Bay of Green Bay where I locked down everything, skinned up to the instrument and let the boat stabilize with my weight moved forward, and just let the boat sail her self at a consistent indicated 4.0 to 4.2 knots I compared my log to that of the GPS chartplotter. Yep the log was a little slow.
Electronically this deviation can be weeded out according to the owner's manual.
Having done so the GPS and Log reflect similar numbers.
HideAway; "it looks like the 19 has a flatter bottom than the 23." Yes the CP-19 does have a flatter bottom and she sails fastest when Not heeled over, but rather straight up and down. The CP-19 had a little help from tank testing at a NASA facility. Entirely two different boats from two different designers.
skip.
Electronically this deviation can be weeded out according to the owner's manual.
Having done so the GPS and Log reflect similar numbers.
That may be so but in my case I have a deviation to GPS reading and then a second deviation port to starboard when close hauled. For some reason, reads that I'm going much slower on a starboard tack, close hauled. With everything else being equal, sail position the same, heel the same, telltales indicating the same, no real current or wave action in the lake, I read a full knot slower on starboard, which doesn't show up on GPS. It's a mystery, but I've chosen to ignore it. Will inspect the impeller when I pull the boat next month for bottom job and trip to the Gulf.
You do realize the mast is not quite centered. The forestay attachment is slightly to port and the backstay slightly to starboard. That would make for a faster port tack. Fixing that questionable design choice would be expensive.
Curtis
A full knot of speed difference is huge if you are sailing a long ways to a specific destination but not so much when daysailing. We have relied on the gps and its voyage made good feature and estimated arrival times. Our normal weekend cruise is about 15 miles, usually outside. My guess is your paddle wheel is somehow fouled or worn.
I have given consideration to the pvc tube dam - may be I should rethink it a bit, but I m still leaning towards cutting the hole. From what I read hull thickness does play a role as do air pockets. Going slow on this decision Matt
Brac, interesting. Wonder why? Current? skip...is baffled.
Good point. A knot is a lot. And if it doesn't show on the GPS that's not a good sign.
It could be the water flow over the paddle on either tack. Where is the paddle on your CP23? Is it near something like a thru hull that could affect how water flows over it?
Curtis
When sailing in a current, and when my knotmeter is working, I will regularly get different readings between it and my gps. It makes sense, right? If I'm sailing into a 2 knot current, my knot meter should read 2 knots faster than the gps. Theoretically, anyway. And vice versa.
My knot meter usually works for about 2 weeks after the boats in the water...seems to get fouled with something or other pretty quick. Not a big deal. In other words, it certainly doesn't detract from the fun! But it is nice to be able to determine current direction and speed.
Bob23
Quote from: curtisv on April 28, 2011, 12:06:37 AM
Good point. A knot is a lot. And if it doesn't show on the GPS that's not a good sign.
It could be the water flow over the paddle on either tack. Where is the paddle on your CP23? Is it near something like a thru hull that could affect how water flows over it?
Curtis
Nothing near it. If you remove the cover from the port side v-berth compartment just forward of the cabin bulkhead it is directly below the opening. Probably some fouling or maybe a defect in the paddle wheel that causes it to be variable. When I had my Columbia 8.7 I used to remove the paddle wheel everytime the boat was going to sit idle for more than a few weeks to keep the fouling down. That is, however, an exciting operation when done with the boat in the water.
Well the GPS I think is SOG. Speed Over Ground. And the paddle wheel in theory could register moving forward if tied to the dock bow in to the current.
Though this really never happens does it?
Talk about stupid. On a Friday night dad tosses me the keys to our 7 ton houseboat on the Illinois River at Starved Rock. So me and my high school buddies drive the 100 miles down to the boat in Glenn's orange 1966 Ford Mustang GT convertible. White top down.
Motor about for a weekend on two in-board~outboard 383 V-8's. Had a blast! Found a door on shore and made a ski-board to tow around. Ran her up on the beach at night, ran out the spring lines from behind a spit of land.
Many gallons of gasoline later on Sunday evening heading down stream in a four knot current to home and toward the Starved Rock lock and dam combo, and insight of the fuel dock on the river [not in the SR Marina] a couple hundred yards away, I run her out of gas!! and we are adrift. Who panicked????
#1. No restart. And we drifted past the fuel dock. And closer to the lock and dam. Damn!
#2. Grab the ground tackle. Thankfully two
Danforth anchors.
#3. Start skeching. Toss one anchor. Pull. Toss the other anchor. Pull.
#4. Continue to inch our way back up river with plans of making the fuel dock before night fall.
#5. Considered using the 'dinky' to row the anchors further out for a longer pull. Decided not to leave the boat in the hands of my land lubber buddies.
#6. Needed a stern light so started to fire up the kerosene lantern. The light bulb went on over my head!!
#7. Pour the gallon of extra kerosene for the lamp into the fuel tank thus raising the gas level enough to satisfy the positive [self-priming] fuel pump.
#8. She fired up one 383 V-8 and sputtered up the the fuel dock where I dumped in around 100 gallons of go juice.
Always thinking, but not very well. And all ways care more ground tackle then you think you need! #9. And stick the fuel tank from time to time you knuckle head!
skip.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/Three%20Hundred%20General%20Pics/houseboat2.jpg)
Ducked behind a 20 foot wide spit of land and run up onto the beach with spring lines set for the night. I can see myself on the starboard side looking astern. Gang plank out.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/Three%20Hundred%20General%20Pics/houseboat1.jpg)
Same boat different paint job. This is houseboat # 3 or #4. We had five through the years. #5 dad motored down to Fla. when he retired. Here she is going under the highway bridge in Seneca, [opps. Ottawa] Illinois as were heading for Bull's Island. An island hydro mined out for the silica sand to make glass by LOF glass company. Slag piles were great ways to pick up colored glass chunks for yard art. To the left, down a tributary of the Illinois River, the Fox River crosses over the top of the Illinois in a water bridge made for transport during the Civil War with horse drawn barges. Cool!. My dog
Bomber points the way to Bull's Island.
Skip
Sheeesh that was close!
On our last cruise we had to motor more than we planned so I sailed into the anchorage and reluctantly started the motor to set the anchor. It caught the first time. Upon refilling the tank from my jerry jug the only gas left was in the carb - the tank was dry Matt
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/Three%20Hundred%20General%20Pics/houseboat3.jpg)
Sketch not to scale...these tows are 15 barges big. About 150 foot x 90 foot x 14 foot deep per barge...give or take. That's a lot of water and it's pushed up into these little 20 foot wide spits of land that we tie behind. It's so cool to watch all the water rush in, rush out and slowly fill up the 'cut' again floating the out drives out of the mud. At times all the water flows a hundred foot away from the boat.
NEVER NEVER cross the wake of a tow boat until it's at least 3/4 mile away from you. Otherwise you and your boat will end up going around in circles totally out of control...even with two 383 Chrysler's churning away at 3200 rpm's maxed out with the four barrels standing wide open turning huge pitched 5 blade matched ss props.
skip.
skip,
love your story! i live about 15 miles north of the mighty illinois and when i had my deep v, i did a lot of walleye fishing on her.
in '04 our friends rented a houseboat and invited us to go along for 4 days. we were tied up at bull's island in ottawa when in the middle of the night our friend had an anxiety attack and couldn't sleep. she woke us up because the boat started to move. her husband and i looked out the stern to see a tug pushing 8 fully loaded barges, and most of the water, up river.
the boat dropped 10 feet to rest on the bottom. we realized the water would return and got the women to shore just in time to see a wall of water hit the boat and snap a 3/4" dock line securing the stern to a tree. we still had bow lines attached to shore, but the boat was heading for my deep v that was now sitting on the sand between the houseboat and the trees.
i grabbed what was left of the broken dock line and wrapped it around a stump that had previously been submerged. the stump began to pull out, but held long enough to hold the houseboat and keep it from slamming into the fishing boat.
we laughed about our misfortune the next morning until tom ran the houseboat into a submerged cement wing dam that was not on the charts provided.
i love the river, but i'm afraid tom and sharon will never return after that trip!
i have plans to sail the entire length of the illinois in stages on our 15'r. some day...
carl
crazycarl thanx, I was wrong. You are right. That bridge in the picture is down stream of Bull's island in Ottawa not Seneca, I forgot.
On 19-July-196[9?], my dad's birthday...the parents and me and dog Bomber, on this houseboat pulled into Vicksburg and bought a hotel room with a TV so we could watch astronaut Neil Armstrong bounce around on the moon! That was something. It was so hot and miserable that the guy who owned the hotel insisted that Bomber dog come inside to enjoy the A/C down in the hotel lounge. I think he bought us dinner...after the dog and pony show on the moon we continued down the Mississippi to New Orleans, where we stayed at the 'Hotel of Two Sisters' in the French Quarter.
On the way home, somewhere up stream of Alton, Illinois [where the Illinois plugs into the Mississippi at Pierre Marquette State Park] on the way back we were locking through and the lock master recognized the houseboat and handed dad a letter he had been holding for a few weeks. On the letter was a colored Carola drawing of our houseboat addressed, "To Mr. Craig Weis, some where on the Illinois river." It was from my high school girlfriend, Laurie who was smart enough to realize that the boat would have to lock through at some lock and dam. We averaged one mile to the gallon and took three months to do the 'down and back' trip.
Now that's a story...skip. We always liked to tie up for the night BEHIND a spit of land. Once we were stern-out on the actual river. It was pitch black out. We were playing cards and dad felt something was not right. Jumping up he slid open the sliding back door, stood on the engine covers, leaned out past the rail and just a few foot away drifting past at 4 knots was a empty barge. If that hit us...that was scary indeed. Next morning the tow stormed by chasing down his errant barge stuck on the sand at the next river's bend.
HAS ANYONE TRIED PUTTING THE TRANSDUCER IN THE BILGE SUMP?
THAT WOULD GET THE TRANSDUCER AS LOW AS POSIIBLE.
LON
Zimco- it would have to be an in hull type - glued to the bottom - I think some 19s have them but when I looked at how hard it would be on our 23 I thought better of it. Matt
HAS ANYONE TRIED PUTTING THE TRANSDUCER IN THE BILGE SUMP?
Why would I want to know the depth at the back of the keel? And that's where the bilge pump, beer and ice go.
skip.
HAS ANYONE TRIED PUTTING THE TRANDUCER FOR THE DEPTHSOUNDER IN THE BILGE WITH A LITTLE WATER?
LON