Capt Ron28, I just looked through the tired old tire discussion, but as it seems 6 years is a little long in the tooth for trailer tires - I'm replacing. What I wanted to know is, since it has been about a year since the posts, what did you go with, 14" I assume? Also, are you happy with your choice (ie no blowouts on the side of the road)?
After the 1300 mile trip from FL to NJ, I'm not planning on moving the boat more than about 50 miles at a time. The average launch trip should be 15 miles or less, at speeds topping out at maybe 45 miles an hour. I was averaging maybe 55 mph on the way north and had absolutely no problems at all, heat buildiup or otherwise. Stopped maybe a half dozen times to measure the brake and bearing temperatures with a laser thermometer. Bigger wheels and tires would be nice to have, but I may not really need them.
The 4 wheel drum brakes are working reasonably well, but I've got to be carefull about salt water launches. It's not easy to flush out a drum brake system. My main concern is with the brakes and I'd prefer to have discs instead. The "open" design makes them easy to hose off. But that would mandate 13 inch wheels at the minimum - they don't make calipers and rotors for smaller applications. When these things finally rust out I will seriously consider 13 inch wheels. On the other hand - I may do most of my NJ sailing on a fresh water lake / reservoir near my house, if I can mount an electric trolling motor on the transom, rudder or folding ladder. If this works out, the salt water problems may go away.
Anyway - I have no immediate plans to replace the 10 inch wheels or the drum brakes. Frequent salt water launches could get me to change my mind.
Size of the tire is superfluous. The LOAD Rating is more potent in regards to carry the load.
Albeit, a smaller tire turns more revolutions per mile dragged, I've got a feeling it's designed for it.
The larger tire has a greater centrifugal load on the bearings selected for a smaller dia tire.
I actually don't think this makes any difference. Keep them inflated and enjoy the ride.
Carry a spare and change it when it goes flat.
Alway use Permatex NeverSeaze on the studs and use a Tee wrench and a small bottle jack.
ANY 13, 14, 15, or? size tire that is not LOAD RATED the same or better then the 10" is worst then a properly rated 10" tire.
You could use go-cart hydraulic brakes or aeroplane brakes if you need small discs. Trailer brakes are just for drag. And should not lock-up and skid even if the tow skids or goes into anti-lock studder.
skip.
I have talked to Gerry & he said they have trailered these boats from FL to California w/ no problems.
I've trailered my 19 (w/ 10" tires) from the west coast of FL to the East coast 3 hours at 70mph w/out stopping and I had no problems.
I practically rebuilt my trailer though, new wheels, tires, hubs, & an axle.
This weekend I'm trailering my boat down to Bocca Grand (almost 3 hours) and I'll let you guys know how it goes shall I return.
Skip -
I wouldn't call the 10 inch wheels and tires "unsafe", but I do believe that bigger would be better. Two reasons - you can't put disc brakes behind them and they are spinning at over twice the revolutions of my truck's tires. Truck's tires doing 65, trailer is running at the equivalent of 130+ mph. I do not think that they are built any stronger to take this. Note that the hubs and bearings are doing twice the revolutions as well.
The inability to use disc brakes is more of an issue to me. Salt water and drum brakes do not get along that well. Very difficult to flush them out. But the smaller wheels and tires do have one advantage - it gets the trailer closer to the ground for launching and retrieving.
"that they are built any stronger to take this. Note that the hubs and bearings are doing twice the revolutions as well. "
Well what are you going to do when your dragging the CP-19 around?
Yes, I am aware of these facts. So 3.141 times radius = dia....130+ ??and tow is doing 65mph? I don't tow that fast. Just remember the reaction time is 3/4 of a second to lift your foot. Plus 3/4 of a second to apply the brakes...and that's if your paying attention. So how far does the rig travel in 1-1/2 seconds at 65mph?
I said I believe that the rubber meets the road with all the assurances of completing the mission of hauling the boat, trailer, and all the fixings down a hot sun baked blacktop just fine. Keep 'em inflated or they'll ply separate. The tires are used up when they are used up. Can't say when that is.
Brakes? "We don't need no stinking brakes" to quote some movie.
Answer: At 60 mph and 1-1/2 seconds reaction time is...1.5 seconds times 88 feet per second = 132 foot. Most people react 3 to 5 seconds upon realizing they are crashing...
skip.
The first thing I did when I got my Eclipse home from a 500 mile trip and one blow out was to change over to 14 inch rims and 185 - 14 tires.................no problems since the change and I do believe the boat trailers better.
Glenn
Glen,
I'm sure it trailers better, but how does it launch & retreave? Did you ever launch it w/ the old 10" tires for comparison? And how long is your average tow?
I usually only tow about 10 miles sometimes only a 1/4 mile down to the lake, but if I'm going to the gulf about 10 miles. About once a year I'll take it somewhere further. LAst year went to Titusville for a shuttle launch (150 miles each way) and this weekend to Cayo Costa (about the same). Next year maybe the Keys.
I like my 10" tires for what I do, but if you do more towing than launching I could see getting larger tires.
I love these boats!!! So many possibilities!
Quote from: skip1930 on March 17, 2011, 08:14:40 AM
Brakes? "We don't need no stinking brakes" to quote some movie.
skip
Actually, in most states you do. Something like 2000 pounds is the most you can legally tow without them. For a 4000+ pound load like an Horizon, you'd be crazy not to have working brakes on the trailer. An extra 4200 pounds to brake would be too much for most smaller trucks or SUV's, and make things somewhat difficult for larger trucks as well.
i will be going to 12 inchers for my 16 provided i can find 12 inch radials
Sorry rarely have I ever been legal yet.
But I should be.
As the judge said to me once, "The manufacture did not install any rear bumpers on a garbage truck, and there fore since you are the manufacture and the state of Illinois sent you a title, you don't need rear bumpers on your Dune Buggy. Case dismissed."
skip. Of course your right about the brakes. I pulled 8,000 lb of compost on a 16 foot double axle trailer that I built behind a T-Bird with it's butt on the pavement all the way home. I never tried to stop. I could not get the V-6 up past 40 mph. The only thing I worried about was pulling the 1 inch square receiver hitch off the bottom of the T-Bird.
skip.
Billy,
I usually drive 50 miles to launch. on special events I tow about 150 - 300 miles one way.
I also had to add new fenders so they would clear the new tires.
I did add surge brakes just for added safety, every thing is rally nice.
I did not launch with the small tires. I bought the boat from the previous owner who live 500 miles away. I really sweat ed it out towing the boat home, 105 degrees crossing nothing but desert. I had a blow out 100 miles from home and with California having some of the worse roads, I feel lucky that I only had one blow out. I was on the out skirts of a town when it blew.
I usually tow at 60 mph.
I have not had any problems launching as all the ramps here in California that I have used have been nice and steep.
Quote from: kickingbug1 on March 17, 2011, 01:33:50 PM
i will be going to 12 inchers for my 16 provided i can find 12 inch radials
Think about 13's as well. The advantage is that they make disc brake systems that would fit behind them. 12 inches would be the same as 10's. You'd also have more choices for tires.
Thanks for the input Ron. I asked the dealer if we could go up on the load rating for the 10" tires and he said they have a very limited selection at that size. They ordered the maximum load rating. Which does make me happy. I was going to find out a few more options, such as going up a wheel size or two, but it's a moot point now since they installed them. My dad used to deal with these guys, but communication does not seem to be a strong suit. At this point I know every thing wears out and tires will come up again. I'll let you know how it goes, as I want to hit the coast this week.
I'm down in Florida and the Horizon is ns NJ, so the following is from memory. The 10 inch tires on my MagicTilt / Horizon are 10 ply rated, also known as an "E" rating. Recommended cold pressure is something like 90 psi, and each one can hold about 1650 pounds. "B" and "C" rated tires may not work on some of the boats - it depends on how much load is on them. I think "B" is something like 900 pounds each at 35 psi maximum pressure. If the boat and trailer are 2,000 pounds or more - forget it. I'd want to see a 25 percent safety margin as well. In my case, 4200 pounds of boat and trailer with 4 10 inch wheels mandates the "E" rated tires. Four "C" rated tires with 4400 pound maximum capacity under 4200 pounds of trailer would be too close for me.
The moral of this story is that all tires are not equal.
I'm gonna echo Ron's "all trailer tires are not created equal." When I was shopping for tire for my construction trailer (7'x16') and always over-loaded, I did alot of internet snooping and found that most, if not all, the trailer tires are made in China. That's not a bad thing, but some were the victims of poor quality control. Check it out. I might have gone on TireRack...don't really remember now.
I guess my 23's trailer is a bit overkill. (4) 15" tires to carry a total of about 4200 lbs. Load range D or E I think. I seem to remember that each tire's load was about 1800 lbs.
All this could be wrong-as I mentioned I'm going from memory!!!
Bob23...I think that's my name!
Well I'm back safe and sound. The dealer installed H188 brand 10" trailer tires. Which I have never heard of, but I have just run a little over 550 miles to Hilton Head SC and back at 55 to 65 mph and am happy. I will probably go up a size next time. I just have to do more planning to have my ducks in a row. I had some time off and I grabbed it. Glad I did. (I'll post some trip info on the Eclipse page)
By the way, when I had the trailer serviced they found the axle nuts had backed off a ΒΌ" and retightened them. If you are pulling don't forget to check ALL the bolts. Thanks for the advice guys.
The sidewall will have a lot of information about the tire, such as load class, weight rating and inflation pressure. Read it and compare the weight ratings to the actual trailer weight (with boat). The "axle" nuts should have cotter pins with castle nuts or maybe E clips to prevent them from backing off. Wheel nuts should be torqued to spec and checked periodically, along with the tire pressure. Any other important nut or bolt should be assembled with locktite or equivalent, even if they have locknuts.
It's more than just "embarrassing" to have one of these fly apart behind you.
I might add also that my trailer has galvanized wheels and where the tire seals on the rim to make it tubeless I can soap up the rim and watch it bubble out at 90 psi. And every year I'd have a flat after six months of the boat sitting on the trailer, so I had tube installed. No problems after that.
skip.
After action report:
Made it the 540 miles to Hilton Head and back. Kept the Eclipse and Performance trailer at the house and waxed, buffed, and generally maintained. Last Sunday I trailered her back to Lake Lanier 37.5 miles. Halfway there I had a sudden deceleration and the starboard side Duro H188 10" tire (tubeless) came off the rim. In my rush to get to the lake I left the bottle jack and the torque wrench at the house, but had two 4x4's, the 20" lug wrench, and the Highlanders groaning jack. It all got changed smoothly, but I was frustrated. The next Monday the dealer got me a new Duro H188 10" for $72 more bucks, no proration on side wall damage (of course!).
Specs: Duro H188 20.5 x 8.0 -10" Load Range E, "Ten ply rating" =Tread 6 plies, Sidewall 4 plies, Max load 1535 lbs (695 kg) at 90 PSI (620 kpa) cold
The moral of the story is in three plus years when dry rot starts in, or at the next flat I will be going up to 14" wheels.
Cover the tires when you're not using the trailer, and don't park it on the grass or dirt. Put some concrete pads or blocks under all of the tires. This will prevent some of the uv and dry-rot damage. And check the tire pressure religiously. A loss of 20 pounds (from 90 psi) may not be visable, but it will definitely hurt the tire's ability to carry the load. That could lead to overheating and a blow-out.
Size is not the issue. This could have easily happened with 14 inch wheels as well.
Thanks Capt Ron,
I checked the pressure at a gas station down the street from my house 20 min. prior to blowout. I've put the trailer in the pine trees with semi-shade and blocked the wheels off the ground, but no covers. The spare tire, which is horizontal, needs one. I'm going to shop for some covers.
OK - the brakes need some work now. Stopping and starting is a little erratic at times. The manual calls this chucking. I pulled the drums off on one side and took the UFP A-75 actuator apart. Doesn't look that bad (rusted push rod only obvious problem, maybe one bad wheel cylinder) so I may choose not to spend a bunch on 10 inch disc brakes, larger wheels and tires, larger fenders, and a new actuator to fix it. I've got some more component testing to do.
My options inlcude everything from a simple rebuild to the full blown version above. One compromise involves rebuilding the actuator and installing 8 inch disc brakes. I found out that Kodiac, UFP and Reliable make these small 8 inch discs, but they are very hard to track down. That will save the cost of larger wheels, new tires and the two fenders. Total cost maybe $500 vs well over $1,000. If I can salvage the drum brakes cheaply (under $150?), I may do that now instead. They don't look that bad either. But these parts are also hard to find. I think the 8 inch drums are made by Titan, but absolutely no dealers carry these parts either.
A few almost funny things from the last day or two. Magic Tilt swears that they don't build 7,000 pound GVW trailers with 10 inch wheels. I had to give them my VIN to prove it. They also install disc brake actuators (the A-75 for examble) with backup solenoids on these tandem 10 inch wheel trailers with small drums. The wire that's supposed to be connected to the backup lights on the truck is coiled and hidden inside the actuator case. Gerry Hutchins confimed this - he's seen a number of them built that way. These trailers could be the only drum brake trailers they still build.
Anyway - I'd like to have larger wheels and tires, but I've always been more concerned about the small drum brakes and salt water. Discs are definitely going in sometime in the future, maybe now if the drum rebuild parts get pricey. The 8 inch disc systems sound like a good compromise.
Most of us can forget about putting disc brakes behind the 10 inch trailer wheels. In my case, it's a Magic-Tilt tandem axle trailer holding up my Horizon. I ordered and attempted to install the 8 inch Kodiak system. Did a test fit on one wheel before I disassembled the whole thing. It will not fit - the Kodiak caliper hits either the trailer frame or leaf spring, depending on whether you mount it at 3, 9 or 12 oclock. It might fit at the 6 oclock postition, but bleeding the system would be a big problem there. The only other 8 inch disc brake kit around (UFP) will not fit our spindles. The Kodiak kit may fit trailers with torsion axles, but most of our trailers use leaf springs.
I will eventually upgrade to 13 inch wheels and tires, and I'm 99 percent sure the TieDown Engineering 9.6 inch brakes will fit. I've installed them on two other boat trailers already. Only problem there is swapping out the smaller fenders.
Ron,
I went from 10" wheels to 14" wheels on my Performance trailer (I have an Eclipse) some time ago and installed surge brakes too.
The fenders were not a problem, I just cut them off and bought new fenders from a trailer supply store on line which was provided to me from some one on this site. every thing I got came from information on this site!
By swapping out the wheels, adding the disc surge brakes and new fenders I have had easy care free towing.
Well forth the time money and labor.
Glenn
OK - I've started the process of updating the Magic Tilt double axle trailer under my diesel Horizon Cat to 13 inch wheels and disc brakes - from the original 10 inch wheels and drums. Trailer Parts Superstore had decent 13 inch galvonized wheels and tires for sale and I ordered them. They got here today. Drums and salt water are not a good combination. Nothing but trouble. Discs will not fit behind the 10 inch wheels. I'm waiting for the TieDown Engineering 9.6 inch ventilated discs do go on sale and I'll buy them. It wasn't that I was that unhappy with the tiny 10 inch wheels and tires - it was the awfull drum brakes that prompted this. The store usually puts these 9.6 inch disc brakes on sale 2 or 3 times a year, and the $30 or so savings per wheel is probably worth the wait considering the 4 wheels. When I finish this project I'll report back. I've done this conversion to 3 boat trailers already and it's worth the approx $700 cost to do it.
By the way, I decided on 13 inch wheels based on the fact that they will fit the 9.6 inch brakes and will not raise the trailer that much that launching and retrieving would be a problem. Tire diameter is about 1.5 inches more so the 3/4 inch height increase will not pose any real problems. Don't believe anyone who says that drum brakes are as good as discs. Besides corrosion, cooling down period is a major issue. I've had drum brakes hit nearly 400 degrees temperature after a run on an Interstate. That's dangerous - with a good chance of tire failure. Ever see all of the tire carcasses lying on the sides of these highways? Most were caused by heat.