Do any of you have one? if so how do you run the wires into the cabin to the battery. I bought a tohatsu about 9 months ago and this weekend I am going to Cayo Costa state park for three days and figured I would finally hook the alt. up. I am hesitant about drilling a hole through my boat so I wanted to ask for suggestions.
I am thinking I will run the wires through the hole where my gas line goes into the gas locker compartment. Then drill a hole (as small as possible) through the seat on the starboard side under the tank cover as not to be seen and place a gromit around the hull thenrun the wire to my battery in the starboard lazzette. Maybe I'll use some marine caulk (life caulk) at the the opening just to keep out water should the cockpit ever get really wet. Seems easy enough but I am always hesitant to drill into the boat.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreaciated.
Billy
Billy,
If there is any other way to route the wires without going anywhere near the fuel line and fuel storage compartment, seriously consider it. Have you given any thought to a marine waterproof cable fitting thru the transom or deck?
Otherwise, be real careful about running the electrical wires through the same hole as the fuel line and through the fuel locker. Use extra protection against CHAFE like cable shields/protectors especially where they pass through holes and close to anything that they may rub against. You might even consider a layer of additional protection along the entire length of the cables from engine to battery. And yes, do seal off any holes through which cables enter the starboard lazarette. Not only do you not want water getting into the boat but, more importantly, you don't want any gas fumes getting down into the boat!
Have fun at Cayo Costa. My Sun Cat is located in Port Charlotte!
capt_nemo
Billy,
As you described is the procedure I used on my 19 with never a problem.
Also, keep in mind that the coil is primarily to provide engine ignition and won't have much to spare unless you run higher RPM. If your motor is electric start then it already has a heavy cable for the battery connection, and of course it will carry the current back to the battery through this same cable. If the rectifier was added then make sure you use heavy gauge wire as DC drops rapidly over distances. When I installed mine I think I remember using something like 10 gauge, and the tinned wire they sell in the boat store will last longer than household stuff.
Ron
Didn't think about EXPLOSIONS!!! But my wire is wrapped w/ a plastic cover over the red & black insulation that is already there. I think I'll have to sleep on this on.
It's not an electric start so there is no existing cable, The wire that came with the motor from the factory is only 16 guage so I think that should be sufficient. Maybe for this weekend I'll just run the wire over the stern & under the lazzerette. Sure it won't be pretty but when my motor isn't running (90% of the time) I can disconnect it from the motor and keep it out of sight. I'll worry about drilling a hole into my boat on another weekend.
Thanks guys!
Any additional suggestions would be welcome.
For about $80 I can put an alternator on my 5 hp 2 cycle outboard Mercury.
I almost did but realized I'll not charge much of anything. I don't use the motor
very much. It takes hours to charge a battery, and keeping up at night while running
the running lights, even with LED's is a pipe dream.
The wire will run through one of the scuppers holes, over the fuel tank and somehow back to the battery.
So I gave that idea up. Solar Panels? I don't think so. I get 18 to 23 volts dc but ONLY 300 miliamps....Like pissing into the ocean to make it overflow...ain't gonna happen. I suppose I could update my panel but 'How good is good?' Watts don't mean a lot to me. I can't grasp the technology or worth of a solar panel.
skip.
Billy,
This is not strictly about your wiring problem, but related to using an alternator.
I used to have an outboard with an alternator. I realized two things. Or maybe two or more.
First, I almost never used the outboard so it was useless weight on the transom most of the time. Second, I'd have to run the motor for a very long time to pick up much of a charge.
In the summer of 2003 I was approaching the path of the commercial fishing fleet on their way out at about 4AM. My battery was in poor shape and my NAV lights had been running all night and were now quite dim. That was the only time I used the motor for a charge. I idled it about 20 minutes and had nice bright NAV lights until I shut it down and then they dimmed fairly quickly.
Quick math - 55 AH battery - needs more than 1/2 charge (lights are dim) - 30 AH or more needed - 5A charger - 6+ hours of charging - 20 minutes did almost nothing but keep the lights bright when it was most important, and I wasn't going to idle the motor for 6-8 hours.
Since then, I got rid of the motor (and didn't replace it), replaced the battery with a much larger one, got a water towed generator which so far I haven't used, and put an LED in the forward bicolor light. So far my tiny solar panel has done a fine job of keeping the battery charged. I haven't done a dawn to dusk sail since then but if I do, I'll toss the water towed generator over the stern and see if it works. I probably should try it before then. I have yet to replace the stern light, anchor light, and cabin lighting as white LEDs are still a bit pricey. The low cost LED cabin lights tend to give off very little light. They've figured out how to make red and green cheap, but not yet for white. I have a few dim white LED cabin lights plus the originals.
Most of us pocket cruisers use the battery only for lights and a small solar panel, good battery, and LEDs should be enough for most sailors. Some solar panels are now under $2/watt, down from $5/watt a few years ago. See http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm (http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm) (and ignore the 230 watt minumum quantity 20 ones) or http://sunelec.com/ (http://sunelec.com/) and remember that you want 16-18 Vmp (and low wattage).
If you use solar, AGM or gel is better than wet because it can tolerate a few days of being undercharged if your panel needs time to bring the charge back. Wet is more easily damaged by being left undercharged for days at a time. AGM or gel may cost twice as much but you may buy a battery less than twice as often. If you go with gel in particular you want a charge controller as they don't like being overcharged.
Curtis
Billy,
I use the an Anderson power pole connector to connect my start/alternator cable from battery to motor.
http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/powerpole-sets/pp75-red-black-75-amp.html
I take my motor on and off regularly, so needed a quick disconnect that would allow me to do that without having to disconnect from the battery terminals and fish out 10-12 feet of heavy romex type cable with two 8 ga. conductors, which also required the removal of a cable clam on the seat bulkhead. Initially I was going to use a trolling motor disconnect but too large to go through the stern tube. This one will just fit through if I shave the corners a bit. I've back sealed the wires to the terminals and then wrap it with silicone magic tape to completely seal it and make it explosion proof. It is in the fuel locker and the cable shares the stern tube with the fuel line. It is so well insulated that I have absolutely no concerns about that, and the locker is considered self venting for gasoline. And of course the locker lid is removed and the power is off in any case where I make or break the contacts, the only time a spark could be exposed. These are overkill for your situation, the heavy cable is for the starter, but you might consider a disconnect with less ampacity if you take your motor off regularly. A smaller, weatherproof disconnect could be close to your motor, outside the stern tube.
Also agree with CurtisV that these low output alternators don't do much for charging, particularly at the low rpm's we all normally run our motors. I have a very good, permanently mounted, Guest charger and shore power at my home slip, so the alternator is a secondary source. If I didn't have the shore power, or was going to go on extended cruises, I would get solar with a charge controller.
"I get 18 to 23 volts dc but ONLY 300 miliamps......... Watts don't mean a lot to me."
Watts are the measure of power, the amount of work that can be done. Power = current X volts, so in your setup if you have 18v and .300 amps you are getting a touch over 5w of power.
If you like to think about this in current take the wattage of a panel and divide by the voltage, that will give you the amperage. For example I have a 40w panel on my sliding hatch, it outputs at 18v. So 40/18 = 2.2 amps.
Shawn
"For example I have a 40w panel on my sliding hatch, it outputs at 18v. So 40/18 = 2.2 amps."
Just for talking purposes, in theory...So if I had a dead deep cell 100 amp hour battery it would take 45.45 hours to charge may battery...that's only 2,727 minutes for a charge.
Amps are what? In minutes or hours? Maybe it's 45.45 minutes to charge...I have zero concept of electric anything. All I know is if it's 100% battery powered, it's not very darn good. 'Cept maybe a Mag Flashlight.
My R/C flight control on my aeroplane uses 4.2 volts dc and 300 milliamp for a 45 minute flight on my 72" wing span Gentle Lady glider.
I can hardly wait for electric cars...that'll be a pain in my behind. Especially in below zero weather and I need defrost, wipers, blowers for the heater and heaters for the batteries to power the car, since batteries are only a chemical reaction cut in half by freezing temperatures, and lights on the way home in a snow storm.
If electrics were so good we would have kept them when we developed them 100 years ago. IMHO.
skip.
Shawn:
What 40W panel do you have on your 23? Sorry for the off-topic.
Bob23
(Skip: check out the VW concept car XL-1. Although it's just a concept car now it's an interesting step forward in electric car technology. VW does it right. Eat your heart out, Volt. You can't argue with 263 mpg!)
Skip,
"So if I had a dead deep cell 100 amp hour battery it would take 45.45 hours to charge may battery.."
If you ever ran a deep cell 100 amp/hour battery all the way to 0 you would have a dead battery. For long life don't go down below about 50% discharge, in this case 50 amp/hours. So to recharge in that case you would need about 22 hours of full charging from solar to recover it. Obviously if you are burning 50 amp/hours a day the solar isn't going to recover it all for you. However, if you do that on a weekend you should be recharged again next weekend.
The key to making solar work on a boat is watching your electricity usage and having enough solar to recover it. For example with incandescent lighting you could *easily* be burning 5 amps, run that for 10 hours during the night (50 amp/hours) and your 100 amp/hour deep cycle battery is discharged. It will take several days for the solar to recover it. Change to LEDs and over the same hours you might use 2 amp/hours from the deep cycle. Solar will recover that in an hour.
With GPS, VHF, and autopilot I have never had to manually recharge my battery during the last two seasons, solar has taken care of it.
Shawn
Bob,
I have a Kyocera 40w panel on my hatch.
http://www.emarineinc.com/products/Kyocera-40-Watt-12-Volt-Solar-Panel-Fixed-Frame.html (http://www.emarineinc.com/products/Kyocera-40-Watt-12-Volt-Solar-Panel-Fixed-Frame.html)
I don't think I have a picture with the panel mounted but in this one:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4634050000_7cb250dfeb_b.jpg)
If you look on the hatch you can see two of the teak blocks that I mounted on the hatch. There are two more on the other side. I put 90 degree aluminum angles on the solar panel itself and those fit over the outside edges of the blocks and then the screws you can see there hold the panel in place. The teak was cut at about a 9 degree angle to match the curve of the hatch. I have an electrical connection under the panel for the wiring to pass to the solar controller. You can see the black coiled wire on the underside of the hatch.
This position seemed to be the best place to fit a nice sized solar panel while being mostly out of the way. I take the panel off when I am raising/lowering the mast, it only takes about 5 minutes to remove it. Because I put the electrical connector under the panel (so it acts as an umbrella to make sure water stays out) it reduces how far the hatch can slide by a couple of inches. I didn't want the wiring exposed on the outside as it would be easier to get hung up on. Plus I'd have to watch for UV breakdowns and such.
The solar controller is mounted on the backside of the panel where the switches are. With this wattage solar panel you must use a charge controller or you will kill your battery quickly. I use a SunSaver 6amp unit which was around $40. I chose that instead of the 4.5 amp model (about $25) as the charge voltage can be adjusted for sealed or flooded batteries.
If you want more pics of the mounting let me know.
Shawn
Found a pic. where you can see the panel....
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5310/5675578027_78d66382de_b.jpg)
(should have pulled up the fenders)
Shawn
Shawn:
Thanks for the info and photos. Nice installation. I have a much smaller one mounted on my forward hatch. btw, what's in the pvc pipe? Propane?
Bob23
"The key to making solar work on a boat is watching your electricity usage and having enough solar to recover it."
Exactly what I have always said. Save electrons.
This is so cool; Did you know that one can actually weigh an empty rechargeable battery and compare it to a fully recharged battery? The difference being the weight of the electrons? Enrico Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Illinois came up with that. In our United States Power Squadron Boating Club we have a women who retired from Fermi after 30+ years. She told us that one.
I have a solar panel. I have done the LED's two seasons ago. I don't turn on the chart plotter unless I need it to point to where I'm going...so I can pull a compass reading. Then I shut her down. I don't scan with the VHS. It's normally off. I don't park anything on the slider hatch because I close it to walk on top of it when sticking the mast. Usually don't listen to talk radio nor play CD's. I do run the depth and knot meter all the time usually. I don't even turn the cell phone on...I'm on the water...somebody wants to talk to me...tough garbanzo beans. They can wait till the boat's back on the dock!
Shawn --> "Amps are what? In minutes or hours?" So amps are always in hours I take it. Thanks. Yes I knew about the 50% rule on deep cells.
Boss --> (Skip: check out the VW concept car XL-1. Although it's just a concept car now it's an interesting step forward in electric car technology. VW does it right. Eat your heart out, [Chevy] Volt. You can't argue with 263 mpg!) <-- So how many hundreds more of electric generating power plants will we need if all ground transpiration is electric? Since we can't store electric very well we have to make it on demand. Just asking...Hummmm 263 mpg supplemented with 3412 btu's per Kw. When it all boils down, 263 miles uses the same amount of energy, no matter what the source of the energy is. So I conclude that 'Big Oil' will be 'Big Energy' and we all will be purchasing btu's in any number of forms. Right?
skip.
Bob,
Yup, propane storage for the BBQ grill. 3 of the 1 pound tanks fit in that and it is vented in the bottom (outside of the boat) in case one ever lets go or leaks.
Shawn
Skip,
""Amps are what? In minutes or hours?" So amps are always in hours I take it. Thanks. "
Amps are simply amps.
When you include time along with the amps that becomes amp/hours. If you use 1 amp for 1 hour then that is 1 amp/hour. If you use 50 amps for 1 hour that is 50 amp/hours, if you use 1 amp for 50 hours that is also 50 amp/hours, 2 amps for 25 hours is 50 amp/hours... etc..etc.
Shawn
Quote from: Shawn on April 30, 2011, 09:32:05 PM
"I get 18 to 23 volts dc but ONLY 300 miliamps......... Watts don't mean a lot to me."
Watts are the measure of power, the amount of work that can be done. Power = current X volts, so in your setup if you have 18v and .300 amps you are getting a touch over 5w of power.
If you like to think about this in current take the wattage of a panel and divide by the voltage, that will give you the amperage. For example I have a 40w panel on my sliding hatch, it outputs at 18v. So 40/18 = 2.2 amps.
Shawn
Shawn,
If you are getting 18V, your battery is already fully charged and you are cooking it. Every solar panel has an open circuit voltage, a short circuit current, and a voltage and amperage at peak power. The panels used to change a 12V battery all have an open circuit voltage in the 18V range. That means that if you can't force any current through, the voltage will rise to 18V. You battery being fully charged is close to an open circuit, but you are able to get 300 mA through, which is probably just boiling the battery. If you were to put a big load on the panel with no battery, the voltage would drop to near zero and the current would go way up. At a near short the current can be measured giving another of the solar panel specs. The most important is the peak power voltage and current, which is typically 13-14V and some current that yields the rated power. If your battery was low, say 12.7 V, for a while the solar panel would be operating at a high current but just below its peak power. As the charge increased, the charge current would drop a little and the panel voltage would increase until the peak power point was reached. Beyond that the current would drop and the voltage would go up more slowly, producing less charging power as the batter was nearing full charge.
So if your battery was low and the sun was shining brightly, you'd be getting full power.
Wet cells shouldn't be charged much over 14V. AGM shouldn't be charged over 13.8 and gels shouldn't be charged over 13.6. When either reaches this point, they should be considered fully charged and the voltage reduced to a float charge, usually 13.1. In all cases, a fully charged battery at rest is about 12.9V. 18V is way overcharging.and you may be damaging your battery. Consider getting a charge controller and you won't have to worry about it.
Curtis
Curtis,
I'm getting about 18v from the panel, that is to my charge controller, not what the battery is seeing.
The MorningStar SunSaver Charge controller I am using charges flooded cells at 14.4v (14.1 for sealed) and it floats at about 13.2.
Shawn
Quote from: Shawn on May 01, 2011, 09:17:03 PM
Curtis,
I'm getting about 18v from the panel, that is to my charge controller, not what the battery is seeing.
The MorningStar SunSaver Charge controller I am using charges flooded cells at 14.4v (14.1 for sealed) and it floats at about 13.2.
Shawn
The battery is fully charged then. The 14.4V and 14.1V are on the high side but 13.2V seems like a very reasonable float voltage. The only reason that over 14V is probably OK is that the solar panel can't produce enough amps at that voltage to do damage and as the current drops the charger will kick into float mode.
So you are probably seeing 300 mA at 13.2V on the battery side, which is just fine. I have a Flexcharge with a tiny panel on a huge battery, a 6W panel on an 255AH battery. This type of controller shuts off the current completely when the battery side goes over 13.8 and then turns it back on when the battery settles below 13.1V. This works well. When the battery is well charged it very quickly goes up to 13.8 and then very gradually drops to 13.1. The panel can only provide about 350 mA since its peak power comes above 13.8V, but it still is capable of completely topping off the very large battery.
Try putting a load on the battery just as a test and see what sort of ampherage the panel will provide. Turn on all of your lights even if its broad daylight and see what the voltage and current reads on the panel side. Depending on how much load you add the panel should try to provide all the current needed to to handle the load. For a 45W panel that should be about 3.5A in bright sunlight if the load is more than that with the voltage dropping to 12.9 and the battery providing the rest. If the load is under 3A, the panel should provide a bit more than the load at 13.2V.
I think the rule of thumb is W / 3 gives AH/day in Florida and W / 4 in higher lats like where I am. So I can expect a tiny 1.5 AH/day. You can expect 11-15 AH per day, depending on where you sail. If you have the typical 100AH or so battery, then this is fine if you mostly just use lights. If you only draw the battery down 20%, a sunny day should get you back to 90% and the next sunny day or two would top off your battery.
Curtis
Curtis,
They run the flooded at 14.4 to try to avoid stratification to increase battery life. It is a full PWM controller so it isn't simply charging or not.
I haven't rigorously tested the output of the panel (might try it this year) but in bright sun I can run the autopilot and GPS and my voltage stays at 13.2 so the panel is handling the load. Later in the afternoon the voltage drops to about 12.9 as the output of the panel is dropping. I do have a 100 AH battery. My Tohatsu has an alternator which I'm wiring into a switch so I can hook it up to charge if I need it. Most times I expect it will be disconnected so I don't overcharge my battery.
The autopilot is my highest draw. I'm adding a water pump which can pull 4 amps but it will be able to drain the tank in about 6 minutes so its total draw would only be about 0.5 AH per tank.
I'm a little south of you in Narragansett Bay.
Shawn
Also the constant 'COOKING' of the battery by a solar panel can slowly boil the water out of even the most sealed no maintenance battery.
Just a precaution to prise off the tops to the cell to make sure they remain covered with electrolyte.
skip.
Skip, without a doubt, attaching a solar charger to any 12V battery indefinitely without a charge controlller is a recipe for cooking the battery every time.
It's pretty dangerous to boil it, it could explode at worst case, but likely would just ruin it or leak electrolyte. Even a tiny charger would do this.
The problem is you cannot put 18V of charge into a 12V battery for long without damage. 14.4--14.5 is about as much as you want to put on the battery when it needs charged. that depends on the battery type though (glass matt, flooded cell, lead acid). That's what a charge controller does..it senses the battery state and regulates the charge accordingly. Some controllers can sense the battery type, others are designed for a certain type of battery. The controller will take in 18V volts from the panel, but will only output what the battery needs to maintain charge. Thus saving from being cooked. When the battery has a low charge, it will increase voltage. As the battery gets charged, it will reduce the voltage.
Pretty good article here:
http://alphasolar.com/solar-charge-controller/
Among others. really encourage you to look into one, they are a lot cheaper than new batteries or fixing acid damage.
Hope that helps...are you in the water yet?
"are you in the water yet?" Hummmmmmmm 36 deg F this morning. I'm not in the water yet.
Yes I know about the limiter for solar cells and have one picked out from our local Bay Marine Electronics store.
Getting the scratch together. Boiling the water, I really meant a relentless evaporation of water from the electrolyte leaving behind crystallized gunk on the battery's cells. It's a slow process that needs watching.
Thanx. skip.
Skip,
For an inexpensive (but good) charge controller check out:
http://www.emarineinc.com/products/SunGuard-SG4.5--4.5A%7B47%7D12V-charge-controller.html
which is a full pulse width modulated (PWM) charge controller.
For a less expensive option:
http://www.emarineinc.com/products/CLP03-3-Amp-Charge-Controller.html
This is a diverter controller. It basically connects the solar panel to your battery until the voltage reaches a specific point. Then it disconnects the panel from the battery until your battery voltage drops below a certain voltage.
Of the two you effectively get more solar power out of the PWM controller.
Shawn