Hi-
Just joined up- hoping to purchase a CP23. I looked at an '84 model yesterday- it has a repair to the side of the keel that concerns me. The patch pre-dates the current owner so they are no help. The aft end of the keel where this patch is sounded hollow when I tapped on it. There is a rectangular plate screwed onto the keel. Not sure if it is metal or thin fiberglass. The patch has 2 holes? that have been filled with 4200 or other caulk- those are the 2 raised bumps in the center. If this ever leaked is the keel connected to the bilge? Photos below.
Thanks for any advice here.
**NOTE** Additional info has been provided about this plate- see page 2 of thread- it is apparently a ground plate for lightning, NOT a repair.
(http://home.windstream.net/jeanne_harris/keel_patch.jpg)
(http://home.windstream.net/jeanne_harris/keel_patch2.jpg)
(http://home.windstream.net/jeanne_harris/filled_holes.jpg)
Hi Dave,
The aft part of the keel contains the sump, or the deepest part of the bilge. That's why it sounded hollow there. Yes, she would sink like a rock if the patch failed badly.
It is hard to tell from the photo, but the patch may be entirely in the sump. The good part of that is that you can gain access to the sump by climbing in under the companionway stair, and with a flash light you should easily be able to see the extent of the damage, unless it continues beyond the concrete/lead casting just forward of the sump. My boat is also a 1984/II; a very good boat.
Ernie (Molly, 1984/II)
Thanks Ernie, that's interesting. I did look and there was ice in the bilge within a few inches of the top. I was not sure how deep it went or if there was glass separating the bilge from the keel. I guess that water could be over a foot deep if it goes all the way down. I saw no evidence of deck or scupper leaks, so the wet bilge was also a red flag.
Dave
I think I would just move on to another boat, that patch panel looks like potential problem in the future. Sounds like the keel pocket on a 23 where they pour the ballast into is not sealed off. If the bilge box is not sealed off from the keel cavity and you clip a rock and break thru the encapsulation the keel with fill up with water (if not already) and flood the bilge and then the galley. I don't have to tell you what happens next!!! That's why on my I put in the largest bilge pump I could fit in there and stay out of shallow or as they say "skinny" water. Best of luck, very valid question and a good thing to post. Keep looking !!!!!
Quote from: geopilot on December 12, 2010, 01:09:08 PM
Thanks Ernie, that's interesting. I did look and there was ice in the bilge within a few inches of the top. I was not sure how deep it went or if there was glass separating the bilge from the keel. I guess that water could be over a foot deep if it goes all the way down. I saw no evidence of deck or scupper leaks, so the wet bilge was also a red flag.
Dave
Dave it's pretty deep. I'd estimate 15" below the top of the ballasted part of the keel. You'd really need to pump it dry and see what you've got from the inside. Don't know why anyone would have patched it in that manner unless it was for expediency sake and they never got back to it.
As a point of reference, I've never had any water in that sump and my boat stays in the water year round without a cover. You really need to know where it is coming from. Leak could be at the hull to deck seam and the water ends up in the bilge sump. In fact, leak could be anywhere, all paths lead to that point.
Dave:
I'm gonna echo Brack. I have a 1985 and she's in the water from April till November. I get very little water in the sump. It appears to me that the patch spans the hollow area but also goes forward enough to be against the concrete keel. This might not be a deal breaker if you're a bit handy with fiberglass and if the price is right- very right. My concern would be the integrity of the keel and if any water has intruded into the concrete. Why don't you tell the seller you want to remove the patch before you buy? With no responsibilities, of course.
And I'll also agree with Allure: Put an electric bilge pump down there; yeah, a big one. If that hollow area gets punctured, down to Davey Jones Locker she goes! I did the same thing on my boat but I'm thinking of a way to reinforce that hollow area. Bronze foot under the keel? Anyone else have any other ideas?
Welcome to the site, Dave. We look forward to hearing how this is gonna play out. Where are you located? Possibly one of the crew here, if nearby, and if bribed with enough beer, could check it out with you.
Bob23 in NJ and "Koinonia" 1985 23/2 #321
Hi Bob & Dave:
I do have a bronze flange with a pipe thread plug in the center of it. It's located on the starboard stern side of the keel. I do not know if it is factory or from one of the two previous owners. I wish the drain flange was positioned lower, it's about two feet up the side of the keel, thus I can never really get all the water out in the fall. I leave the plug out over the winter months. I have never been able to pin point how the water is getting in there, perhaps rain runoff, pin hole or two in the keel itself, osmosis, your guess is as good as mine. I have to tell you when I take out the pipe plug to drain the keel in the fall it is by far the most horrible smelling bilge water I have smelt in my life time. It actually stinks out the surrounding area so bad I do it at the end off the day when everyone else has left and then I get heck out of there myself. It is just awful !!!
Best of luck....
Thanks to all for the fast feedback since I had to let the owner know something today- she has another person interested in the boat. This boat is in Vermilion, Ohio and is listed on sailboatowners.com. I have decided to pass this one up- I am 5 hours away in Kentucky, and only had yesterday to look at the boat. The interior is in great shape, sails tired, Magic-tilt roller trailer needed a couple of tires and some maintenance before a 5-hour trip. Original Johnson 6hp 2-stroke. Of course the exterior teak needs work. I thought the boat and trailer were well-priced at $5500- may still be for someone closer who could spend more time investigating. The gelcoat on the hull was treated with something (poliglow or vertglas?), which has yellowed and is now peeling off in patches- some work needed to strip that mess off.
As for me, I sail a Catalina Capri 18 at Cave Run Lake in eastern Kentucky- looking to move up to something a little bigger- the CP23 sure caught my eye, so I'll keep looking.
Thanks again, Dave
Geo- I got a 97, and the right 23 is worth the wait. They are great boats.
Yikes! Concrete doesn't fill the entire length of the keel? This is very interesting information for a new 23 owner who assumed(yeah, I know a** of you and me) that it did. I think I may have a problem and before I call Hutchins maybe you guys can help. You may have seen the pictures I posted of my cradle. Well I attempted to fix the cradle and got it almost perfect, except for the fact that it is still not supporting the whole length of the keel. We were hauled and put on the cradle a couple of weeks ago. But the keel is only supported at it's ends. I think I need to prop up under the enter of the cradle and then slip some shims between the keel and the cradle. I also think I need to do this soon. Thanks! rip
Definitely a boat to pass on. Ice to the top of the bilge would seem to indicate a decent size leak that doesn't drain. That ice expanded and probably already cracked the glass.
Dave:
Yeah, for $5500, I'd pass too. The keel issues are one thing if there is no visable damage. A coating on the gel-coat can be a bugger to remove. I never knew Poliglow to yellow but, hey, I've been wrong before. Keep looking and waiting...you're boat will find you.
Rip:
I wouldn't support the boat on the aft end of the keel..it's just hollow fiberglass. My boat rests flat on a 2x10 board which is attached to the frame of the trailer. So far, in 5 years, no problems. Remember, this is a 48000 ounce boat...she needs some support under her keel.
Allure:
I'd be very concerned about that much water in your boat. As previously mentioned, everything drains to the sump, which is why the bilge pump is located there. If you are getting a lot of water in there, it could be coming from a pin hole in the sump area. I do not have any drain plug in my boat...sounds like an "improvement" from a previous owner although I've not personally inspected every Compac keel made. Maybe the leak is coming from the flange itself?
I normally will have about 1 inch of water in there...probably coming from the deck pipe for the anchor line.
the cover blew off a few years ago and I've yet to replace it! This winter, I promise.
Bob23
I was thinking about this the other night- I wonder if the water's coming from the scuppers? Mine leaked a bit when I first got her. I'd like to put in larger ones and connect with flexible hose to take care of any "give" between cockpit floor and transom.
Bob23
That's a great idea, Bob.
Leaks are a real pain in the butt. I had a Compac 19 that would get absolutely no water in her when sitting at the dock, regardless of any amount of rain or forceful application of the water hose. However, during a short sail or even motoring, I'd get varying amounts of water in the port and starboard lockers under the vee berth cushions, as well as under the port berth (under the wood in that barely accessible, foamed in void). Long search short, the U-bolt on the bow was tight, but the sealant had deteriorated to the point where water was forced up the shanks of the bolt when under way. It did not help, either, that Compac used mild steel washers and nuts on the stainless U-bolt, and the wooden back-up block suffered from the water intrusion. I might mention that both C19s I've owned had mild steel hardware on the U-bolts. I mentioned this during a visit to the factory and I hope later models got the full stainless treatment. Replacing the bad parts and a bit of fresh sealant resulted in an extremely dry boat. Routing the sink drain through an above the water line bronze thru hull kept any waste water out of the bilge. Sorry............I just cannot stand water in my boats!!
Hi:
You definitely hit a nerve on that reply. I've had to replace a number of mild steel items on my boat as well. Will never understand how any boat manufacturer (not only ComPac) would ever use non stainless steel items in the construction of their boats. My pet peeve, I guess it goes along with being part of the engineering world.
Hi my name is Ken and I think I am the other offer on the boat. Did you ever find out any additional info on keel issue. Thanks for posting the info it has been a big help.
Ken-
I have no other info other than what has been offered here- if you are interested in purchasing this boat the main questions would seem to be:
1) is the repair to the keel likely to cause future problems or trouble with resale?
2) where is the water that has filled the keel and bilge coming from?
3) Has the the freezing of the water in the keel done any damage?
Good luck and post back if you buy it-
Dave
I think that on a 23 it sounds like the keel is not capped off by the bilge box or floor pan. On a 27 it appears to be sealed off by the floor pan and the bilge box, thus when the keel is not drained in the wintertime and the water in it is allowed to freezes the expansion direction of the ice is upward and against the floor of the bilge which then cracks like mine did. It is repairable, but it shouldn't happen in the first place. These are of course my opinions and or theories.....that won't even get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks or anywhere else for that matter. That patch just plain scares me, what do the screws thread into? You can not tap a thread into fiberglass and screw into it, I doubt you could get a nut into position on the inside to screw into and self tapping screws aren't any stronger, especially into fiberglass.
Bruce
S/V Allure
The boat the OP asked about is in a storage building nearby so I went to see what the story is on the "keel patch" you were all speculating about. It turns out most of the OP's information and assumptions were wrong, and despite good intentions, the collective suggestion to walk away apparently cost the owner a sale to the OP - and maybe others reading this thread. I suggest rather than speculating the next time, it would be better to recommend that a prospective buyer seek the opinion of someone in a position to actually obtain the facts before rendering an opinion.
The "patch" is apparently intended as a ground plate. It's a 12" x 19" sheet of about 14 ga. brass overcoated with what appears to be gelcoat which was then painted with antifouling with the rest of the bottom. It was very neatly shaped and installed and apparently well bonded to the side of the keel as there is no evidence of a separation line or voids at the interface. Also, the "hollow" sound made by tapping on it is almost exactly matched in tone by tapping on the other side of the keel that has no "patch".
The visible screw heads around the perimeter are #8 round head machine screws with washers and nuts on the inside which were fairly neatly "coated" in silicone - I assume to prevent the nuts turning. The two "bumps" in the middle of the plate are not 4200 or any other caulk. They are the heads of two 3/8" though-bolts, also nutted on the inside that connect to a ground strap which in turn connects to a ground bus mounted on the seat face just outboard of the sump where about 6 wires terminate. There is no evidence of leakage, inside or out, around any of the through-bolts. That is all clearly visible on the inside with no more effort than it takes to look into the sump (see pics below). What is not clear is why someone thought a ground plate was necessary.
The OP described "ice in the bilge within a few inches of the top." On the contrary, there is a little over 1" of ice in the bottom of the sump (19" below the top), apparently the water that the bilge pump couldn't get as it would have been sucking air at that point. It must be the same ice the OP observed as the temp hasn't been out of the 20's here since the day he saw it. I did not see a clear indication of the source of the water in the sump but it does not appear to be a leak from below the waterline as there is no "mud" in the sump. (The Vermilion River is muddy and a thin layer of mud generally accumulates in the bilge of a leaking hull.) Ideally, the sump would have been sponged dry when the boat was put away but it wasn't. Regardless, 1" of ice will not harm this strong area of the keel.
The OP should consider editing or deleting his post, or at least the identifying information in it because it, and the subsequent replies, unfairly harm the seller's ability to market his boat.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee429/JKRIII/GROUNDSTRAP.jpg)
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee429/JKRIII/OVERALL.jpg)
Strange that the OP would not have noticed the screws and other attachments on the inside of the bilge area in the area of the "plate" since he did look in to see that it, in his words, was filled "with ice in the bilge within a few inches of the top".
In my view it would be in the owners best interest to completely expose the area, inside and out. Since the current owner cannot comment on the attachment which is not stock, I would be interested in how and why it was installed. Were dissimilar materials used that might create an electrolysis condition with one component being sacrificial creating a weakness and future leak? Why is it there? Is it to dissipate an electrical strike? But completely sealed in gelcoat creating isolation? And why install a plate which would create turbulence in an area that is designed as a foil for best performance?
And what is the source of the water, an inch remaining from pump out or otherwise? Mine never has any. Could be just the draining of the water tank, but that should be addressed by the current owner. Or it could be a hull to deck seam above the water line, or worse, something below the water line?
Given the information that the members of this forum received, the advice was varied, and in most cases, advised that additional information and inspection would be appropriate. In my view, that is still good advice. This may be a fine boat that is well worth the price, but without careful inspection and the relevant answers, a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted. I would seek and consider the advice of the members of this forum, but it would be my own analysis of those often conflicting opinions and my own eyes or those of a competent surveyor that would determine whether I would buy or pass.
I'm curious, John R. what is your interest? If you are the current owner, or represent the current owner, provide full disclosure with the information to discuss the issues if you like, and the members of the forum will certainly help to clarify those issues to the best of our collective ability. Nobody here is trying to keep the boat out of the hands of a prospective owner who will be a valued member of our community.
my $.02 worth, and like my original response, which was to comment on the depth of the bilge area and to advise the seeking of additional information, my liability is limited to exactly that amount.:)
John:
Maybe the seller should've known more about his own boat, eh? Remember that we give our opinions here and no one if forced to heed them or even read them, if they choose not to. Maybe the water had been pumped down when you saw the boat.
At any rate, I'd buy it but not for $5500.00. Like Brack- my $.02
Bob23
(More opinion- that looks like an amateurish attempt at lightning control. Please don't go gettin' all in a huff...just my opinion!)
It now appears that the plate in question is a lightning grounding device. As the original poster, my apologies if I mislead anyone- I had no idea what it was, and since I only had a day to make a decision on this boat, I sought advice here. I did not notice the wiring leading into the keel, and my memory was wrong on the depth of the ice. Again, I had a short amount of time to look at the boat and was trying to check a lot of different things. I will edit the original post to reflect the new information. Thanks for clarifying - and I am glad it does not appear to be a serious problem.
All posts are opinions and if new information is available from the owner we would be happy to add it to the thread. If there has been a miscarrige of justice, please contact a mod and do not try to correct our members (please :)
I am not the owner - but I know the owner - and I am not an interested party in the sale of this boat. I only got involved because I was asked to check out the plate to see what it's for and then to address the comments in this thread. At that point, only 8 of 14 replies actually addressed the OP's concerns (the other four were the OP's own posts). Of those 8, only two suggested investigating further (Ed Buchanan and Brackish). The rest speculated on the nature of the plate, what it is for, what it conceals and where the water came from. Three recommended "walking away" from this one altogether.
I don't know why some previous owner installed the plate - you could speculate on that for days. What's the difference? The question is not why it's there but whether it represents some problem to the safety or structure of the boat. Visual inspection suggests it does not.
If I was in the market for a CP23, this boat looks like a good buy. Checking for 80's era CP23's on Yachtworld shows five boats that range in price from $7900 - $14,900. The asking price on this boat is just $5500 with an almost pristine interior, a hull and deck in good shape and a two-axle trailer. Maybe you should reconsider, Bob! Here's a link to the ad for anyone interested in it: http://www.trailersailor.com/index.php?option=com_adsmanager&Itemid=298&page=showad&adid=11219 (http://www.trailersailor.com/index.php?option=com_adsmanager&Itemid=298&page=showad&adid=11219)
Thanks. I'm not in a huff - just don't like to see bad information drive a discussion.
John
John, I would suggest that when you speculate on the nature of things such as a non-stock plate and water intrusion, you are giving a tacit recommendation to investigate further. I would take it that way at least as it would provide some alternative direction for that investigation. But, you're right, what does it matter.
That said, with what I now know and if further investigation should reveal nothing else negative, I would not hesitate to buy the boat if in the market. The first thing I would do is remove the plate, glass in a back patch on the inside of the bilge, and fill the holes created to install the plate from the outside, fairing them back to the original foil surface. A relatively simple task that would eliminate any concern about electrolysis, or what might happen if a contained plate is actually involved in an electrical strike.
This, of course, is an opinion and the opinions of others may vary considerably.
Based on the information originally presented which is what we had to go by (ice to top of bilge, unusual draggy "patch"), I stand by my comment to pass on the boat.
Based on the new information presented, it would certainly warrant a careful look by an experienced professional IF you are willing to live with it (poor foil design, potential for leaks) or repair to your satisfaction. Frankly I would still pass on it. Would rather have a non-modified keel and am entitled to that opinion. However the price is right even though it's winter and Ohio is frozen solid for many months to come.
For comparison, here's a keel in excellent condition: (the white streak is just the camera doing strange things)
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z290/yamaholic_mcarp/Island%20Time/DSC01418.jpg)
Geez Mike - it must have been hard to clean that bottom with a magnifying glass and Q-Tips! I don't have the time, patience or willingness to clean anything that well. Impressive, just plain impressive.
Mike
lol...nope, that was after one swipe of bar keepers friend. The keel was in that good of a condition when I picked 'er up!
John:
I don't need another 23. I bought mine for less than $5500 in much better shape with no plate screwed to the keel. But thanks for thinking of me. I think it's a buyable boat given the info we have recieved.
I stand by my remark that I don't like the lightning bonding arrangement. Each stantion, chainplate, bow and stern rail, etc. should have a dedicated wire leading to the bonding plate which I've never seen attached to the keel but rather to the underside of the hull. If I were considering this boat, this arrangement is a negative and would further drive the price down.
Man, Mike: That keel belongs in a museum! She's a beauty!
Bob23
(ps: I agree with Newt: Don't try to correct a member. Most of us are too damn stubborn anyway. I speak for myself.)
John:
I apologize for my snotty tone. Thanks for being concerned enough to post what you did. I was in a "stuffy" mood due some stuff going on around here at the home port. I have a relative who is a real stuff head and she spreads stuff everywhere she goes.
I let my bad mood portray itself here and I'm sorry. Again, I apoplogize if I've appeared snotty and rude.
Bob23
I think we all all stressed secondary to the holidays. I apologized too if I came off wrong. We all have differences of opinion on what stuff is worth. Lets keep it friendly.
Quote from: newt on December 23, 2010, 12:38:28 PM
All posts are opinions and if new information is available from the owner we would be happy to add it to the thread. If there has been a miscarrige of justice, please contact a mod and do not try to correct our members (please :)
Oh boy, here I am on the hard on Christmas day, kinda killing a cold winter's day partially by reviewing posts since my last visit. This is a tough one for me because I am an opinionated guy like most of the sailors I read on this forum. And I certainly don't want to garner the wrath of any moderators or administrators. I am listening to really beautiful music which should tone down the words I use(wish I could send it along!).
Basically though, having read this string a few times, I am kinda glad the way the whole thing reads. I am a big believer in transparency. So my trouble with the above quoted advice is that I am not sure any moderator would have made public all the aspects of this situation. And please keep in mind that "correct(ing) our members" is sometimes needed to get to the bottom of issues. Thank you John R. for your explanation of the "patch". I hope that either of the potential buyers will reconsider the boat. And I hope that this forum continues to be a great source of information as well as a wonderful source of sailing comradeship. Best all, and a happy 2011, rip
It was a good discussion, all in all.
And a most Merry Christmas to you, rip.
Bob23
Quote from: Salty19 on December 13, 2010, 03:10:23 PM
Definitely a boat to pass on. Ice to the top of the bilge would seem to indicate a decent size leak that doesn't drain. That ice expanded and probably already cracked the glass.
I think that the reason the sump is angled with the wide part up is so any ice is forced up as it expands. I had ice in my sump a few times with no damage to the fiberglass. Sometimes an inch or two of ice in the bottom possibly from condensation, sometimes quite a bit of ice probably due to a leak in the tarp and not closing the companionway all the way. Any ice will completely destroy an electric bilge pump (it got mine) so best to take that out of the sump before winter. I have had no evidence of damage to the fiberglass from ice in the sump on my CP23. The fiberglass seems very thick in the sump area compared to the rest of the hull. I was a bit worried the first time I saw ice in the sump, but that was years ago and there has been no problem.
No comment from me on the ground plate.
Curtis
Yep, I'm sure a few inches of ice won't do any harm. The original post, which has since been modified, stated that the ice was at the top of the bilge. That turned out to not be the case after the fact. Ice to the top (what is that, 20-22"?) was my cause for concern. That seemed like way too much ice and would be a problem.