I have placed a boom vang "on the list" for winter modifications to the CP19 and am looking for feedback and advice on it.
My plan is to build or buy a rigid stainless plate (flat on bottom, curved on sides with a hole for a shackle aft) fitted under the tabernacle for a lower attachment point as well as a bail thru-bolted on the boom for the upper attachment point. No rivits or screws here! I've also seen what appears to be bail-like assemblies that would use the existing bolt through the mast/tabernacle as a lower attachment point, however those threads were by David Serrel and he deleted every last one of them.
Question is has anyone fitted one, and if so, what exact hardware did you use to mount it? I will probably go with the Harken small boat vang components with cam cleat, but I'm not sold on it yet. Pictures or a good description of your solid mounting solution would be appreciated!!!
Salty, I installed one on my 23 using a bail/pivot bolt assembly and it worked perfectly. One of the Boomkicker bails with the rolling shackle has an ID dimension that is snug perfect on the 23 mast step. Is the 19 the same step? (revised)
Those bails are aluminum but extremely strong and the rolling shackle is a nice feature as the lower block stays aligned perfectly all the time. The only other hardware I had to get for the lower/mast end was a longer pivot bolt.
For the boom I used a SS strap bail that had an id that was snug fit on the boom and a through bolt/acorn nut.
I looked through my pictures and don't seem to have an installed picture but will take one next time I'm up at boat. Here is the vang with the hardware attached.
Note: post modified with new pic. When set up the vang was reversed so the cleat was high.
Brack..thank you. This looks exactly to be the type of fastening I'm considering. Strong and bulletproof...just how I like it.
Suppose I need to do some measuring to find the proper bail inner diameter. The boat is an hour away so I thought I would ask. So to be clear, the mast attachment bail (to the left in your pic) glides over the mast and the bolt you've shown through this bail replaces the mast bolt. The bail on the right in your pic is bolted through the boom entirely. Sound right?
Quote from: Salty19 on October 26, 2010, 03:26:50 PM
Brack..thank you. This looks exactly to be the type of fastening I'm considering. Strong and bulletproof...just how I like it.
Suppose I need to do some measuring to find the proper bail inner diameter. The boat is an hour away so I thought I would ask. So to be clear, the mast attachment bail (to the left in your pic) glides over the mast and the bolt you've shown through this bail replaces the mast bolt. The bail on the right in your pic is bolted through the boom entirely. Sound right?
The mast attachment bail actually attaches on the outside of the step on both sides. It is plenty deep enough to have all the clearance you need for it to rotate up and not interfere with the back of the mast or step. The bail internal dimension at the holes (the bail has clearance holes for a 3/8"bolt which is what my 23 has) are exactly the outside dimension on the step. I use 1/8" nylon spacers between the step and the mast on both sides to keep the step from bending in when the bolt is tightened and that keeps everything properly oriented. In fact, since I started using the bail, it will not give and let the step bend in so the spacers are just to take up the slack. I'll take a picture later this week.
I can rotate the mast down with the bail on, however, I have to take off the roller shackle first or it will keep the mast from rotating all the way down.
There are a number of different boomkicker bails, so there may be one that fits the 19. Or maybe the step is the same one used for the 23 and has the same width. If I recall the bail and roller was about thirty bucks.
Yes on the boom attachment, it may be overkill in that many use pad eyes attached to the boom, but I think this is stronger. And I think it cost less than a curved base pad eye. Think I may have used a nylock nut on that rather than an acorn, and cut off the bolt grinding the end smooth and flush with the end of the nut. Nylock let me tighten it somewhat loose so I didn't have to worry about it compressing or dimpling the side of the boom and there was not a lot of bolt sticking out to catch on things.
I've also seen what appears to be bail-like assemblies that would use the existing bolt through the mast/tabernacle as a lower attachment point, however those threads were by David Serrel
BTW I noticed a couple of weeks ago that David put his boat up for sale on Sailing Texas. No picture of his vang attachment, but contact info if you want to see what he did.
http://sailingtexas.com/201009/scompac19121.html
Wish I knew what happened with him. He was always so helpful with advice and ideas. Hope he is doing OK.
Thanks, and yep that's Pachabella alright! Price is kind of steep but I recall this boat was among the nicest out there and equipped like no other.
Hello
I built my Boom Vang from scratch because I wanted it exactly my way.
(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz185/mss-cp23/Boom%20Vang/P1000390.jpg)
Here is the goose neck that fits in the mast slide.
I just put her in storage but I'll get you some more photos and a materials list with sources and costs.
I also incorporated a Boomkicker.
You can see more photos of my CP23 at my PhotoBucket page http://s826.photobucket.com/home/mss-cp23/index
http://s826.photobucket.com/home/mss-cp23/index (http://s826.photobucket.com/home/mss-cp23/index)
MSS
I simple took a large eye strap and through bolted it to the mast. I used a short length of rod inside the mast track and drilled through that as well. The boom attachment is a bail bolted through the boom.
Curtis
Here is a picture of the vang bail and roller shackle on the mast.
That's pretty dang nice, Brack. And a good shot of the mast foot which was being discussed on another thread, another time. You really keep a clean boat.
Bob23
Brack,
Those look like Ronstan blocks. Is this something you did yourself leading the halyards back to the cockpit? The newer CP23 have line led aft but I think Shaefer blocks are used and there is a large base through bolted with four bolts each.
(http://www.faster-light.net/remote-access/image/20020725-boom-vang-02.jpg)
You can see the blocks and each base in the photo. I'd be uneasy about screws into the gelcoat holding the halyards. If that is what you've got there you might want to upgrade your design at some point.
Curtis
Quote from: curtisv on November 01, 2010, 11:22:41 PM
Brack,
Those look like Ronstan blocks. Is this something you did yourself leading the halyards back to the cockpit? The newer CP23 have line led aft but I think Shaefer blocks are used and there is a large base through bolted with four bolts each.
Curtis
They are Ronstans but they are Hutchins installed (boat is an '05). Hard to see but they have a SS base that has a countersink profile for the screws. The blocks are through bolted with a backer plate. All the factory installed running rigging blocks on my boat are Ronstans. For the aft led halyards, I like your Shaefers better, but am not uneasy about the Ronstans. One of them is just used for a topping lift; the other, currently main halyard will probably be converted to a lower load application, tack line adjuster or chute scoop control line. Then heavier pair on the other side.
Won't add anything that is not through bolted having chased core rot on a previous boat that did that for low load applications. If through bolted and a leak occurs, you know it, it is self draining and you can fix it. If it is screwed into the GRP you don't know it until you get core rot or freeze damage. Compacs don't have balsa core but freeze damage is a possibility. And they do have wood reinforcing in the area of the halyard lead blocks. I'm also a little nervous about the wood trim on the sides of the cabin trunk which I assume are just held with all purpose screws into the GRP.
MSS, curtisv and Brack-Thanks for the great ideas! Brackish, I may just copy your setup (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!).
Once I figure out the right parts to fit the 19 vs. 23, I'll post them up here (will be a few weeks minimum). I suspect I'll need narrower bails than what the 23 require so better to measure first!
Imitation - schmimitation! Let's steal the idea and run with it. I don't need it, can't afford it, have no reason to install it, but of course I'm going to get it.
Keep us posted on part #'s and sources.
Mike
Hey Mike!
Love the picture of Puppy Luff II under full sail!
As promised, and to give Greene a reason to spend money, here it the parts list I came up with intended for a CP19. All purchased from defender.com
ITEM Description Qty Price-Each Backorder
614828 HARKEN 40MM CARBO FIDL,CAM,BKT 1 $79.05 0
614825 HARKEN 40MM CARBO FIDDLE BLOCK 1 $29.21 0
000205014WHRD SAMSON XLS EXTRA T 1/4" PER FT 28 $0.77 0
614698 ROLLING BAIL 2.75x3.8" 1 $25.99 0
603412 SCHAEFER FORGED BAIL- ROUND 1 $35.99 0
Note I took a small risk on measurement clearance, and have yet to test fit, the "rolling bail" part so do not hang me if it doesn't fit well. All other items look to be "just right". Note the blocks are not huge which I kinda like.
Also note that it costs $25 or so for a rigging shop to splice the line to the becket and you'll need to buy hardware (screws for the boom bail, longer mast bolt and spacers).
Another note there is 28 feet of line listed here. This is probably a little too much, but one can always reduce the size once fit, tested, etc. Better too much than not enough.
Another great case of explanations and pictures to teach me how to do things I never did before. I just wish the weather was such that I could start putting together and installing all the nifty stuff i am learning about vangs and furlers and all the hardware used to install them. My memory is such that by Spring I will have forgotten everything. :( Thank goodness for Bookmarks! ;D
with all this talk of boom vangs, i have removed mine from my 16 and find little or no difference in its sailing performance. maybe someone can enlighten me as to it proper use. my understanding is that it only helps on a beam reach. i took mine off mainly to simply rigging.
Pretty good write up here:
http://www.andrews.com/kysc/bt/boomvang.htm
Will probably add a vang to my 23 this year. Anybody know if the bail sizes listed above will also work for the 23?
Thanks,
Shawn
Shawn,
Thank you very much for that link. I have bookmarked it and will hopefully find that website very useful in the future.
In regards to the boom vang, I wondered the same thing about its usefulness, being fairly new to boating other than basic sailing. This was very informative and I may find after some time and experience, that I may want to improve my boat's performance with this addition to its rigging.
Thank you very much for helping me increase my knowledge.
Robert
Shawn,
The blocks and line will probably work out fine. However the bails shown above are the right size for a 19. Measure your mast and boom dimensions, then go to defender.com and search for the word "bail". They come in many sizes, just match up what you feel will fit with your dimensions. I bet the ones above will be too small, but really do not know.
Quote from: MSS on October 29, 2010, 01:38:05 PM
Hello
I built my Boom Vang from scratch because I wanted it exactly my way.
(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz185/mss-cp23/Boom%20Vang/P1000390.jpg)
Here is the goose neck that fits in the mast slide.
I just put her in storage but I'll get you some more photos and a materials list with sources and costs.
I also incorporated a Boomkicker.
You can see more photos of my CP23 at my PhotoBucket page http://s826.photobucket.com/home/mss-cp23/index
http://s826.photobucket.com/home/mss-cp23/index (http://s826.photobucket.com/home/mss-cp23/index)
MSS
Did you use aluminium or stainless steel for your goose neck?
Quote from: Shawn on December 29, 2010, 04:58:45 PM
Pretty good write up here:
http://www.andrews.com/kysc/bt/boomvang.htm
Will probably add a vang to my 23 this year. Anybody know if the bail sizes listed above will also work for the 23?
Thanks,
Shawn
Shawn,
Missed this one first time around.
The rolling bail is a 3.25" X 4.5" Defender number 614701.
Used a Schaefer boom bail, stamped SS 1-3/4" X 3-1/2", Defender number 603405.
I used Lewmar 50mm syncro blocks for the vang
29925031 fiddle and 29925039 fiddle, becket, cam. Defender numbers 614742 and 614744 respectively. I think those numbers included snap shackles on the blocks.
Used 1/4" low stretch double braid for the line, which is what is optimal for those size syncro blocks. Did the eyesplice myself, had to learn sometime.
I would shop Gaurhauer direct for the blocks, may get a better price for an equivilent set of blocks. For comparison sake, the two blocks cost $65 total about a year ago. Rolling bail was $34 and the boom bail was $11.
MSS--that is one sweet mast fitting. Nice work!
Brackish,
Thanks for the part numbers. Ordered the bails from Defender, I already have the blocks as I use a vang (with 100' of line) to raise/lower the mast. Also got the hardware for the boom to support a second reef point and to be able to go up to a 6:1 outhaul for the loose footed main. Can start those projects early which is nice.
Thanks,
Shawn
6:1 outhaul? Should be able to trim it with a pinky!!
The 6:1 may be a little overkill but since I'll be loose footed the easier I make it to adjust the outhaul the more often I will adjust it. I might move the cleat more forward on the boom so it is easier to adjust when heading downwind.
If 6:1 ends up being too much I can always use less blocks to lower the ratio.
Shawn
Quote from: Shawn on January 12, 2011, 12:26:59 PM
The 6:1 may be a little overkill but since I'll be loose footed the easier I make it to adjust the outhaul the more often I will adjust it. I might move the cleat more forward on the boom so it is easier to adjust when heading downwind.
If 6:1 ends up being too much I can always use less blocks to lower the ratio.
Shawn
Report with pictures when you get it going. I recently set mine up 4:1 using my existing main, but haven't tried it loose footed yet. Even at 4:1 it gets a little crowded back there. Are you using a cheek block on the boom?
I will report on how it works out.
For the blocks I will be using Harken triple (Defender 604862) on the sail and a triple with becket (Defender 604863) on the end of the boom.
I am adding another cheek block on the boom but that is for the second reef point.
If you haven't tried loose footed give it a shot. I sailed that way all last season with my old main and thought it was a nice improvement. With the 2:1 in high winds it was a little difficult to adjust.
Can't wait to see how the new main works out next season.
Shawn
Roughly how far back on the boom does everyone like having the boom bail? I know its position is a bit of a trade off between up/down wind performance. I don't want it as far back as the cockpit so there isn't an issue with the bimini.
Thanks,
Shawn
Quote from: Shawn on January 15, 2011, 12:24:19 PM
Roughly how far back on the boom does everyone like having the boom bail? I know its position is a bit of a trade off between up/down wind performance. I don't want it as far back as the cockpit so there isn't an issue with the bimini.
Thanks,
Shawn
I kind of struggled with that dimension. Read something that said it should be at a 45 degree angle. Read somewhere else it should be at least 1/3 of the way down the boom from the mast. With the boom so close to the base of the mast (at least on mine) not possible to do both, so I compromised. Don't quite remember but I think I put it 38 or 40 inches from the mast measuring from a point on the mast that would drop a vertical line through the pivot bolt. That would be about 34" from the gooseneck and that is to the centerline of the screw that holds the bail to the boom. That does not create a 45 degree angle, but it works fine, so I'll measure it to confirm next time I'm up at the lake, probably next week sometime.
You primarily just want to make sure it will keep the boom from rising on points of sail once you get past a beam reach all the way to a run going off the wind. At least that's my understanding, and mine works well to do that.
Quote from: brackish on January 15, 2011, 02:18:29 PM
Quote from: Shawn on January 15, 2011, 12:24:19 PM
Roughly how far back on the boom does everyone like having the boom bail? I know its position is a bit of a trade off between up/down wind performance. I don't want it as far back as the cockpit so there isn't an issue with the bimini.
Thanks,
Shawn
I kind of struggled with that dimension. Read something that said it should be at a 45 degree angle. Read somewhere else it should be at least 1/3 of the way down the boom from the mast. With the boom so close to the base of the mast (at least on mine) not possible to do both, so I compromised. Don't quite remember but I think I put it 38 or 40 inches from the mast measuring from a point on the mast that would drop a vertical line through the pivot bolt. That would be about 34" from the gooseneck and that is to the centerline of the screw that holds the bail to the boom. That does not create a 45 degree angle, but it works fine, so I'll measure it to confirm next time I'm up at the lake, probably next week sometime.
You primarily just want to make sure it will keep the boom from rising on points of sail once you get past a beam reach all the way to a run going off the wind. At least that's my understanding, and mine works well to do that.
Found some sketches in my "boat briefcase" that indicate I was considering a shorter dimension, so I'm not sure what I ended up with. Will check this week at the boat.
Brackish,
Thanks, I appreciate the help.
Shawn
Shawn, I was off on my original estimate. The boom bail hole on my 23 is located 28" from the face of the gooseneck casting, the flat cast aluminum piece that is attached to the boom. It puts it 32" from the mast, perpendicular to the centerline of the mast pivot bolt. I don't know if that is optimal or best, but it does work. It is neither at 45 degrees, nor at 1/3 of the way down the boom, but a compromise between the two because of the 23's low boom height.
Thank you for the measurement. I will probably go in a very similar position, just want to check clearance with my bimini but I think that will be fine.
Shawn
Just wanted to let other CP19 sailors know..the parts I've shown do indeed fit the boat properly. You'll need small spacers as the bails are slightly (1/4-1/3") wider than the mast and boom. I've yet to find SS spacers but dd find zinc coated ones for cheap the HW store. Also, you don't need nearly as much line for this application as I indicated--I went long as I was not sure what would be needed and didn't want it to be 6" short in an effort to save $3. So it will be cut down to fit once that little yellow spot in the sky, which has been a stranger all winter, makes it's way to my area.
Certainly most of the small boat vang systems would work just as well, and perhaps cheaper.
MSS-You should sell those here on the forum! Very nice!
Just to check in here. All the mentioned parts for a CP19 fit just fine. Thank you Brackish for the suggestion on the swivel bail for the boom, it's working out nicely.
Performance is better than I expected; the mainsail seems to maintain a better foil shape. No banging and clanging of the boom when tacking anymore. Both leech telltales seem to be "telling stories" whereas before only one or the other would fly, indicating either I was trimmed OK up top or along the middle but not both. It seems like the mainsheet pays out better too..could be my imagination though.
I mounted it about 2" forward of the aft portion of an open companionway hatch slider. The angle to the boom is roughly 45 degrees. So it's not at all in the way when entering the cabin and still easy enough to adjust.