Had an interesting sail today. Most of this sails this summer has been in light winds and I still haven't quite kicked my Flying Scot dinghy sailing tendencies. Wind was 15ish knots (off the land) with gusts to 25. I had the 110 jib up and the main reefed.
Was originally using the tiller pilot but it was fighting heading up on the gusts so I took it off. Wind kept getting gustier and with changing directions but the sailing was going well.
Tacked around to start heading back in as I was a couple of miles out. I was now on a close reach but the gusts kept being from slightly different directions and it was hard to tell from which way until you hit them. The way back in wasn't quite as good. On the gusts I was loosing too much speed and getting lee helm as the steering was going away. After we cleared Fox Island we got hit hard on the beam with much stronger constant wind probably 25 or 30 knots. Saw 30 or 35 degrees of heel and the boat basically stopped and held there for a couple of seconds. No water into the cockpit. I let out the main but crew (on lee side) didn't let out the jib. She popped right up again but because the jib was still in tight and the main was out I was getting very strong lee helm which had me worried. Figuring discretion is the better part of valor I ended up putting the motor down and using it to head up to drop sails and motor in. On the way back in I saw numerous other boats with too much sail up being knocked around and quickly heading up. Most dropped sail though there was a smaller gaff rigged cat that was taking it all in stride. The gaff looked like it was dumping wind nicely on the gusts.
Thinking about it now I probably could have put up my storm jib (50 square feet... about a 65 Jib) to try it out. I think that would have gotten rid of the lee helm but I might have still needed another reef point in the main which it doesn't have. Any thoughts?
Didn't think about trying just the main... how does it do in heavy air like that? I know in lighter air it sails lousy on just the main.
Couple of other random thoughts... I put Winchers on my winches a couple of weeks back and really like them. They were holding the jib sheets just fine using the groove without cleating off the sheet. Well worth the modest cost IMO.
Glad to have the jib downhaul today when I took down the jib. With as much wind as there was it was trying to self launch again but I was able to hold it down with the downhaul until I was able to go forward to stuff the sail into the bow bag.
The rope quick release I added to the jib sheet to allow me to swap headsails easier works well. Again no problems holding in heavy winds and I was glad there was no heavy metal shackle up there whipping around when I headed up in that much wind.
Shawn
Shawn,
Definitely not a dinghy.
I've put a second reef in my main and strongly recommend others do so. See http://www.faster-light.net/remote-access/projects_S_S.html#0 (http://www.faster-light.net/remote-access/projects_S_S.html#0).
Lee helm is rare, but you said you sheeted out the main and had the jib in tight, so an unusual situation. Normally a CP23 developes quite a bit of weather helm when the wind picks up. The bowsprit, added in the 80s I think, was a big help (again when the wind picks up - some CP sailors claim no difference). The Ida or other foiled rudder is a big help (more efficient). The second reef in the main allows the main to be reefed first and counters the weather helm quite a bit.
I've sailed plenty of times in steady 25 knots. At times in 4-6 foot waves. And at times in gusts to 35 knots. I've sailed 25 knots with just the first reef but its way more comfortable with the second reef.
I also have a 110 with a different sheeting arrangement. See http://www.faster-light.net/remote-access/projects_S_R.html#2 (http://www.faster-light.net/remote-access/projects_S_R.html#2).
Curtis
BTW- My boat web page hasn't been updated much in 6 years so ignore some of the "at the time of writing" comments. I've sailed with this setup for quite some time and it works great. Feel free to look around those pages for other ideas.
Shawn:
I'll echo Curtis in that any lee helm in a 23 is extrememly rare; so rare that I don't think I could induce lee helm in my 23 if I tried. Now, don't take this personally, but could you be mistakenly calling weather helm lee helm? I know this sounds basic and you've sailed quite a bit but weather helm is when the pull on the tiller is toward the leeward side of the boat thus causing her to head up toward the weather side.
As the wind increases, this is my general plan: At about 15 knots, I'll put the first reef in the main...she seems to sail faster and more comfortably. As the wind speed increases, I'll take 2 or 3 turns on the jib's roller furler. More wind, the main gets it's 2nd reef and maybe another turn on the furler. Still more wind? Drop the main completely, sail under jib alone and wonder why I stayed out so long. But the 23 is a very seaworthy boat. A few years ago, I had a partial knockdown due to a combination of a high gust and inexperienced skipper (that'd be me) but "Koinoina" faithfully headed up and came right up.
And, yes, they don't sail well with just the main. Although, once I installed the foiled rudder I built, I noticed an incredible increase in performance, so much so that she'll now tack through under main alone, something that was impossible before.
Hope this helps,
Bob23
Hi Curtis,
I have the bowsprit and the Ida rudder. I took the main to a sailmaker about getting another reef point but he suggested based on the age it would make more sense to just put the money into a new main. I think that is probably a better idea. Thinking full battered, loose foot with 2 reef points when I am ready for it.
Shawn
Hi Bob,
"Now, don't take this personally, but could you be mistakenly calling weather helm lee helm?"
Nope. The boat was turning downwind and trying to go on a run. Weather helm isn't scary, lee helm is... wouldn't want an unintentional gybe in that much wind. After I got in to port and had time to think about it I realized plenty of things I could have done differently. That big gust of wind that pushed us farther over then I have been before combined with the lee helm, and the feeling I was loosing control over the boat, dropping sails and motoring in was a prudent choice. Better safe then sorry. Next time I will have learned from this one and handle it better.
Shawn
Come to think of it, I once sailed with just the jib up in high wind and experienced kinda the same thing. I couldn't tack through so was forced to gybe, and experience unto itself. I found that in those high winds, when I allowed the boat to fall off too far, and a gust hit me from behind, then yes, a sort of lee helm developed for a brief moment.
Thanks for being gracious in my suggesting you were mistaken in your terminogy...I know youv'e been sailing for a long time. Maybe it could be that your main is that blown out, like mine is.
Bob23
Shawn- once a couple of summers ago, It was stormy and I was sailing with half a jib and reefed main- Got hit by 50 knot microburst- I headed into the wind but was overpowered- it went broadside to the wind and broached. Once the jib was down it sailed to the marina under reefed main just fine. But these are little boats- enough wind can overpower them and it has nothing to do with sail configuration. Next time the sails come down and so does the anchor.
Bob,
The Compac is my first keel boat so I am still getting accustomed to the greater stability of it and the feel of it in heavier air. Everything else I have sailed is smaller: Flying Scot, Hobie 18, Sunfish, Force 5 and so on. In all of those you don't have as much stability in gusts but in all of them they will also accelerate (planning) in a gust... if you keep it right side up. With the centerboard in the Scot you can also adjust the center of lateral resistance to tune lee/weather helm.
My main is probably blown out as it is the original. I think the big mistake on coming up was having all the power in the 110 jib and none in the main. Center of effort was too far forward which is where the Lee helm came from. As it was happening I was reverting to Flying Scot sailing... you go over that far and you need to depower quickly. Since they are a fractional rig there isn't as much power in the jib and they will keep moving so you don't come back up with lee helm.
The other interesting difference in feel is that the heel feels greater in the Compac then in the Scot. On the Scot you typically sail sitting on the rails. When the boat is heeled about 10 degrees the side rails are horizontal so everything feels level. As you heel more you just naturally lean back to stay upright. Sitting on the seats in the Scot feels more like it does in the Compac. The seatbacks limit your ability to lean back to compensate.
Shawn
Newt,
Ouch, waiting that out at anchor does sound like the right move for that sort of situation.
I will have to try it next time I am out in heavier winds but if you sheet the main in tight, let the jib flap, and lock the tiller straight ahead how well will the boat stay in irons? I am thinking about what I would do if I was single handing in heavier winds and wanted to change the jib.
Other options would be to go on a reach and use the autopilot. Or if I had to drop anchor or use a drift anchor to keep me into the wind while changing out the sail.
Thanks,
Shawn
Shawn:
Yes, the 23 and a Flying Scot have completely different underbodies. My 23 seems to sail better with about 10 degrees of heel. You cannot sail her flat, like a Scot would like to sail. Your 23 has nothing in common with the boats you mention except that it is a sailboat. I also have a Force 5 to scoot around in. I race my son in his Sunfish.
Continue to experiment. The jib we fly is the main source of horsepower unlike the Scot. So, I guess you'll have to learn to sail all over again! But it's nice having that 1350 lb. keel down there, isn't it? My last boat was a SeaPearl 21. The entire boat weighed less than half of the keel in my 23!!!
BTW, how did the lazy jacks work out?
Bob23
Bob,
The Scot does well at 10 degrees too. That is where most aim for, the rails being flat.
Force 5 was a fun little boat. The sleeve on the sail going over the mast was a little odd.
How did you like the Sea Pearl? They look like great trailer sailers with their easy rigging. There is one on the other side of the low bridge near my dock. He rows under the bridge then puts up his masts. Good way to keep dock fees down. :)
Lazy jacks are a winter project. Rather go sailing while the boat is in the water then dropping the mast to install them. I'll let you know how they go.
"But it's nice having that 1350 lb. keel down there, isn't it?"
Yes, I think the Scot had about 80lbs of lead in its 4' centerboard. For its type of boat it is very stable, but the 23 is of course a whole different realm.
Thanks,
Shawn
The 'Pearl was a great boat but with a 62" beam (across the top), and no balast she was very tender. Definitely not a high wind boat. Don't ask me how I know that! But I had a blast with her; we sailed up creeks that only kayaks and canoes would go. She only drew abou 8" with the board up. I had a rare centerboard model and with that centerboard trunk in the forward cockpit, there was no room to sleep. I always thought it would be neet to build a removable hard cabin top for her. Bought the 23 instead.
Bob23
Bob,
I think the water ballast system is supposed to help that. These people made a cabin, and much more, for theirs:
http://www.seapearlboats.org/html/steve_s_sp_mods.html
Other options would be to seek out the Sea Pearl 28. Those look like they were nice boats.
Shawn
The water ballast system does help alot. Most Seapearl 21's came with leeboards which frees up a lot of space in the forward cabin. Another modification is the widening of the forward cabin and then a soft or hard cabintop.
I missed a Seapearl 28 for sail by the manufacturer a few years ago. It went for 10k. There are not a lot of them around...I only know of 2 down here in NJ.
Bob23
Quote from: Shawn on October 30, 2010, 08:01:12 AM
Hi Curtis,
I have the bowsprit and the Ida rudder. I took the main to a sailmaker about getting another reef point but he suggested based on the age it would make more sense to just put the money into a new main. I think that is probably a better idea. Thinking full battered, loose foot with 2 reef points when I am ready for it.
Shawn
Shawn,
Sounds like a fine plan. Good advice from your sailmaker. No sense modifying an old sail. But do get that second reef, one way or another.
Curtis
Ordered a new main from Kelly Hanson. They are having a special this month, base price is $395 ($150 off) for a 5 ounce, loose footed main with one reef point. All up with second reef point, 6 ounce fabric, insignia, full battens, headboard and a cunningham cringle was just under $600.
Can't wait to try it out next season. Winter project will be adding hardware on the boom for the second reef point. I'm sure that will make a big difference in heavier air.
Also went with a 200 square foot ,170%, 1.5 ounce upwind hank on drifter with a high cut foot. Between these two sails I will be expanding my available sailing conditions in both directions.
Shawn
Shawn:
Let me know how the sail looks when you get it...I might be in the market also.
Bob23
Quote from: Bob23 on November 21, 2010, 03:56:33 AM
Shawn:
Let me know how the sail looks when you get it...I might be in the market also.
Bob23
Me too Shawn. I'm good to go on headsails, but will be thinking about a new main down the road. Mine is not worn out but I would love to have one cut for loose footed operation and with full battens. Two sets of reef points would be nice. Where I sail the second reef point would not be used often, but it is cheap insurance when caught in conditions where it would be necessary.
Will do. Toby thought the sails wouldn't be in till January or Feb. Apparently they had a record month and will be lofting 60+ sails.
This summer it seemed I either had loads of wind (20+) or almost none so these two sails will certainly help.
I sail Narragansett Bay. Last sail of the season was very light air and we were doing well with the spinnaker up but didn't have enough sail to go to wind. There were only a couple of sailboats on the whole bay and not a stinkpot in sight. We spent much of the time watching the 12 meter 'Gleam' (US11) having their final sail of the season before they headed into my home port, Wickford Harbor, were Gleam spends the winters. Passed her while she was tied up to the dock, that is one beautiful boat!
Shawn
That is one beautiful boat! I just found some photos of her...wonderful! A great boat from an age of sail that is history. Have you ever sailed on her, Shawn?
Bob23
Hi Bob,
Yes, Gleam is fantastic. The man that rebuild Gleam also restored two other 12 meters and a number of other boats. He died a few years ago:
http://www.seascopenewport.com/CruisingWorld.htm
His collection is at:
http://www.seascopenewport.com/fleet.htm
I have never been on Gleam but that would be an amazing sail. Since they have multiple 12 meters in their collection you can charter as crew in one of the boats and be a part of 12 meter 'racing' in Newport.
Shawn
What a wonderful story but sad that Bob's life ended so young. He surely left his permanent mark in the restoration of those great sailing ships.
Bob23
I have never been on Gleam but that would be an amazing sail. Since they have multiple 12 meters in their collection you can charter as crew in one of the boats and be a part of 12 meter 'racing' in Newport.
Shawn
I missed that one by a year. Corporation I worked for (Pentair) took their location execs there for a corporate meeting and chartered two 12 meters for a "race", one of those "team building" boondoggles. My boss, who had no interest in sailing, got to go. The next year I was promoted to his job. Meeting that year was in St. Paul, MN, and golf was the only boondoggle event offered. I hate golf......
Bought my Columbia 8.7 in Warwick, RI. Close to you?
Sorry to hear you missed that. I would assume it would be great fun sailing on a 12meter.
Warwick is slightly north of where I sail out of. Growing up it was the next town over.
Shawn
Was out last weekend with fairly steady 17+ knot onshore winds (higher in the slot between Jamestown and land) and 2-3 foot waves close together. Waves and the wind were not from the same direction.
The wind was forecast to increase. So as a test I decided to head out with my storm jib up and my fully battened National main sail double reefed. Just in case I had the cabin closed up tight and expecting a lot of spray I had my foulies on.
What a difference a year, a new main sail, rigging and experience makes.
What was a fairly wild busy ride and a climatic ending last season ended up being just a stroll in the park this weekend. Last year we were often heading up and constantly playing the main and jib sheets. This year we were moving well with less then 5 degrees of heel and basically didn't touch the sheets once we had them set. No problems tacking and I used the vang to keep the main flat. The waves were slowing us down a bit going to weather, only time it became a problem was on wake from a big boat. That tended to stop us.
Sailing in/out of the wind shadows was easy with no drama at all. The fore deck was soaked from spray but we only got it in the cockpit once or twice.
We were just amazed at how much better the boat (and us) handled similar conditions to last years sail. If anything we might have been a little under canvased. Certainly accomplished my goal of increasing the range of conditions I could sail comfortably in.
Shawn
Hi Shawn:
I'm up near the Kikamuet over in in Swansea cove. We emailed before I believe. I'll be at the Wickford Yacht Club over the Columbus Day weekend. I belong to The the Ocean State Catalina Association group (my last boat). It is our last get together for the season. Let me know if you'll be around.
Bruce
S/V Allure