I've been hearing about a possible Pilot house version of the 23, guess it is true:
http://www.com-pacyachts.com/news/
Intresting indeed.
I like it.....probably can not afford it but what a great idea, to have standing head room in a Com Pac 23, brillant. Keith Scott at the Sailboat Company is also working on a similar build. He is using an 80's vintage 23, with a shortened gaff rig, I believe from a Horizon cat, for his project. He has pictures posted of this project on his web page.
Quite interesting.
As I was standing in my 23 with the hatch open, I began to wonder about the feasability of converting her top end to a pilothouse design. Not quite as high as Hutchins (that looks a little out of scale to me) but I'd like to stand up. I'm only about 5'7" so I wouldn't need that amount of height.
Can't wait to see the Hutchins brothers at Annapolis one week from today. I'll try to get more info out of 'em!
Bob23
wouldn't it be neat if they made 16 and 19 models or conversion kits :-D
Wow guys- I am wondering how it would sail....
Quote from: newt on October 01, 2010, 07:39:31 PM
Wow guys- I am wondering how it would sail....
I met a guy once who put a short stick and a big diesel into a commercial grouper fishing hull. I asked him how fast it would sail. He said it depends on where I set the throttle. He said the only time they really tried to get anywhere under sail was when they had 20 knots on the beam.
It's a motorsailor. It'll probably sail just fine with an appropriate throttle setting, or 20 knots on the beam.
I like it for what it is, and think it will appeal to the kinds of buyers who are getting into little trawlers these days. Some of them still want at least some kind of sailing ability.
I'm vaguely irritated that I have to learn about this new model here. My wife does the Com-Pac website. I think I'll go give her a hard time. ;)
The sailboat company is doing something similar and adding a mast tender sort of rig to the 23.
http://www.ipass.net/sailboat/events.htm
A little less sail area then stock though.
I'd think in either case you would want the sail up as a steadying sail if nothing else. With the round hull the 23 rolls quite a fair amount when under power alone.
Shawn
Tom Ray said:
I like it for what it is, and think it will appeal to the kinds of buyers who are getting into little trawlers these days. Some of them still want at least some kind of sailing ability.
Exactly! I'm pushing 64 and I'm the last still sailing from my group of folks who all were sailing together in our twenties. All the others have gone to power. What they all wanted were trawlers or luggers, slow, roomy, stable and safe. Grand Banks or the their wannabes, but the problem is they are too expensive for the average guy. One in our old group lives on a Fisher 30 MS and it can't get out of it's own way sailing but he's happy as a clam.
I'm thinking they may have the demographics here. When I look at my 23, I don't care if it is a bit slower, but it would be nice for my old back to have standing headroom somewhere down below. If I want to sail fast, I'll get a hot little one design on the side.
Some suggestions (listen up Gerry and Rich):
The standard diesel is great but you took the cooler spot so scrap the slider galley units and put in across the aisle sink/cooler/stove/flip up table units preferably forward against the bulkhead. Leave the berths long enough to still have two behind the galley units. Weight distribution and trim will be better and the water will no longer creep up the scuppers.
Raise those main cabin cabinets and leave a space under all the way to the hull to widen the berths a bit. Some of us (not me of course) have put on a few pounds as we gracefully age.
Design a really good mast system for this boat, like the mastender system to make ramp time minimal and easy. With the higher mast step and boom maybe a combo gallows/mainsheet traveler or midboom on the aft end of the new higher pilot house. We old guys still want to travel to new areas, but want it to be easier once we get there and my number one desire is an easy effort, sub 30 minute ramp experience.
23's don't have a high initial stability today and you're raising the center of gravity a bit, what can be done to offset that? It would be cost prohibitive to retool the hull, but might consider doing something as an offset. Would pure lead ballast concentrated lower do that?
The rest of you can chime in anytime, you're going to get old enough that this will look attractive some day.:)
Brack, I never figured you for a old codger. Maybe you just write young. I agree that the limiting factor is going to be the hull and the Center of Gravity. Putting the diesel down there will help, of course. I would go with one of those little Beta's. Lead Ballast, and driving the keel down to 3 feet would also help. If they shorten the main, why don't they put a staysail in? They could still keep sail area, just get creative.
WOW, BRACK-YOU SURE ARE OLD!! jk.
I'm gettin' there...a motor sailer sounds ok. My back would love standing headroom also but I'm not so sure that the 23, with her rounded chines would be a comfortable a motorsailer. But the Hutchins brothers are no dummies and I'm sure they've gone over these things already.
But the more I think about this, the closer I am to cutting the cabintop off my 23 and raising the headroom. I'm gonna have to really think this one through!
Bob23
Ahoy mates,
For all the CP23 owners if you can't have standing headroom in the cabin then how does standing headroom under your bimini sound to you. Here is another project brought to you by the North Carolina fellows at the Sailboat Company.
I hope Keith doesn't mind but I pulled the following right off his web site, it is located in his "What's New" section along with photos.
Sun Shade When It's Hot:
Sailing during the summer can be hot. Being on the water helps, but you need to stay out of the sun if possible. A solution to the sun problem is a bimini. Our yard is full of projects with a cool bimini as a part of the overall project. A major problem with a standard CP-23 is headroom under the bimini. I spent several days in the rain at Ocracoke under a 23 bimini. A taller bimini with headroom would have been nice. Our green 23 project boat currently has a Sun Cat sail for a mainsail. The sail can go up the mast and still have room to clear the bimini and the boom gallows. The new bimini has "almost standing headroom" under the bimini for a 6-foot person. The 23 bimini will have rigid supports forward to improve entry and exit from the cockpit. The Coastal Trawler 20 has a semi-rigid bimini as well. The bimini top follows the slope of the cabin. This design gives the cockpit more headroom and still looks good.
Quote from: newt on October 02, 2010, 03:16:00 PM
Brack, I never figured you for a old codger. Maybe you just write young. I agree that the limiting factor is going to be the hull and the Center of Gravity. Putting the diesel down there will help, of course. I would go with one of those little Beta's. Lead Ballast, and driving the keel down to 3 feet would also help. If they shorten the main, why don't they put a staysail in? They could still keep sail area, just get creative.
Trading out concrete for lead would definitely help, if it is really needed.
Deeper draft is fine in deep water, but deep water is considered a myth in these parts. ;) They start to get hard to launch at about 2 feet of draft, and three foot draft would require the deepest ramps and a high tide.
Quote from: Tom Ray on October 02, 2010, 09:46:30 PM
Quote from: newt on October 02, 2010, 03:16:00 PM
Brack, I never figured you for a old codger. Maybe you just write young. I agree that the limiting factor is going to be the hull and the Center of Gravity. Putting the diesel down there will help, of course. I would go with one of those little Beta's. Lead Ballast, and driving the keel down to 3 feet would also help. If they shorten the main, why don't they put a staysail in? They could still keep sail area, just get creative.
Trading out concrete for lead would definitely help, if it is really needed.
Deeper draft is fine in deep water, but deep water is considered a myth in these parts. ;) They start to get hard to launch at about 2 feet of draft, and three foot draft would require the deepest ramps and a high tide.
Yep, I'd pass on it if the draft were increased. Too many other choices when you start to get past the 2'3" draft. I'd like to gunkhole all of Southwest fl, from Port St. Joe to Key West, and wouldn't want to be ramp restricted or restricted from the best anchorages. My last two boats had drafts of 4' and 4'-10" respectively and I spent plenty of time fetched up on sand bars trying to get into that nice anchorage or waiting for a tide change so I could get out.
Already hit a couple of marginal Florida ramps with my 23. Got in and out, but with some difficulty. Extension helps to give a little more range, but then you have to worry about hitting a ramp end drop off.
The more I ponder this, the less I like it. Sure, you can pop a pilothouse top on and change the rig and add the diesel but increasing the draft or even keeping it at 2'3" (which is not really correct) is not going in the right direction. Why not start with a hull that has inherently greater form stability? Where are the old CP 25 molds? Sure, they have the freeboard of a small skyscrapper but, if my memory serves me ok, they were a much flatter bottom which would require a smaller keel. Or maybe Rich and Gerry should start from scratch, like they did with the Catboats.
But I guess one's gotta start from somewhere and the 23 being the great boat that she is, isn't an all bad place to start.
I've seen cars and trucks "adapted" to do things they were never designed to do, and, yeah, they did it but not as well as ones that were designed from the ground up.
Bob23
Conceptually, I really like this new boat and applaud Hutchins for making something different from their traditional line. It does seem inspired from the sailboat company's designs.
But I agree with Bob23...pehaps the 23 hull is not the best platform to build this boat on?
A flat bottom would make a lot of sense for this application as you know darn well many folks who would buy this boat would be motoring a good majority of the time in use. That said, I've never been on a 23 but have spent a lot of time on a 16 which supposedly has the same handling dynamics.
A way around this might be to build winglets on the keel bottom to reduce motion, reposition ballast and induce some lift where it needs to be.
I don't know whether they have the old 25 molds, but that boat already had decent headroom without adding a pilothouse.
That is true. I've never sailed aboard one but by adding a pilothouse one might be able to put on a 2nd floor! I've heard they didn't sail all that well. Wonder who the designer was?
Bob23
Well, none of the Com-Pac boats are really known for blazing speed, but then, race boats are generally not comfortable or sturdy. ;)
We sold one used Com-Pac 25 twice while I worked at the brokerage/dealership here. I liked the boat, but not because it looked fast. One of the things I liked was the headroom. The first couple who bought it were disappointed with the sailing performance, and soon put it back on the market. The salesman who sold it the second time told me after the sea trial that it was indeed slow and did not want to point well. That's the price of headroom and shallow draft.
Bob23, I think you are right on the money with the suggestion that this be based on the 25. As a motorsailor the keel can be compromised a bit to lessen the draft and a clever rig like the cat boats would keep the rigging process reasonable. A trailer capable motorsailor seems to be developing a market niche in recent times and would be a welcome addition to the choices for us that aren't so quick to abandon sail power to get on the water. The 25 would offer a better platform with a little more space in the cabin which is an important of leisurely cruising.
Hutchins - if you're listening you have two votes to revive the 25 as a motorsailor.
Ron
You guys are driving me crazy. I owned SunCat Hull #55 back in 02. Then I wanted standing headroom and went off to a Nimble Kodiak 26...slow and sailed like a slug...so I had a complete breakdown and bought an ugly milk bottle shaped small bayliner CC which nearly bankrupted me with gas and outdrive repairs....finally came to my senses and went back to my SunCat (now Hull #345) and here you come talking about old age, head room and wannabe trawlers...HELP. At 67 I just want to finish my sailing days, sell my house and creep aboard my used Mainship.
Paul:
We're just tryin' to keep you on your toes. When I stepped aboard PeterG's new to him CP 27, it felt so spacious and I thought I heard my lower back breathe a sigh of relief. But, alas, it's not to be so bent over I shall remain. I'd love standing headroom but my 23 is just too perfect. But I'm gonna rack my brains on how to raise the cabintop a little. I'm only 5' 7" after all.
I plan to speak with Rich or Gerry at the show this Friday about the 23 motorsailer. I'm sure they will see the error of thier ways.
Bob23
Bob,
Why not try and make it a pop top? Would give you the extra headroom at anchor while keeping the cabin top low while sailing for good viability.
Shawn
The Catalina 22 was the only pop-top I know of that made it to general production. It was generally not liked, but I don't know why...
I dunno, Shawn. Maybe it's just me but there seems to be something heretical in turning my 23 into a pop-top. Maybe it's the "pop-top" term that I'm adverse to. I'll have to kick this one around.
Although is does give the headroom when I need it, while at anchor- good point. And I like a low cabintop while under sail for visibility.
It's a dangerous thing for me to be sitting at the table with morning coffee, pencil and paper and a head full of ideas that have been stewing in my brain all night. Who knows where this will lead?
I've toyed with a solid top that can be easily removed. Phil Bolger had a simple solution to the headroom proplem- eliminate the top! That's what I call unlimited headroom! More than likely, this one will remain on the drawing board for quite some time.
Bob23
Quote from: newt on October 05, 2010, 11:59:24 PM
The Catalina 22 was the only pop-top I know of that made it to general production. It was generally not liked, but I don't know why...
Older Catalina 25's also had a pop top. The whole deck swung up onto 4 legs. It was heavy and a good way to hurt yourself, but did provide excellent headroom when up.
The new 250's have a companionway that slides and then hinges up, and an enclosure for that area, making a soft pop top.
Corsair F-27's have pop tops.
FYI - the 25 was originally a Watkins 25 Hull design.
"Date: Mon, Feb 8, 1999, 6:22pm (EDT-1) To:
Subject: Watkins 25 FYI.
Compac Yachts has purchased W25 mold and started making the boat as a compac 25 They retained the hull, pan and interior mold but totally changed the cockpit and cabin top. They added little round brass ports instead of the bomar hatches and they moved the large front hatch to above instead of in front of the cabin top. For my money they cheapened the boat but at least now there will be more hulls in production and the boat should sail about the same for competitions.
E-mail message
Date 9-13-2001
From: mbd54
Watkins 25 and Compac 25
I am glad that I have found a place of fellow Watkin's owners. I have a 1986 25 for 11 years now.
I looked over the post's on this sight and I see a bunch of 25 foot owners. I did not see any posting about Compac using the Watkins molds for the 25 they make. Three years ago I was at Sail Expo in Atlantic City New Jersey and looked at the Compac 25. I was talking to the factory rep when I mentioned to him the hull looked like my Watkins. He mentioned that they purchased the molds. The Compac 25 had a nice traveller for the main sail. I have seen another Watkins owner in Brick NJ with one that Hibberd boat works installed for him.
I read a post on this sight about PHRF for the 25's.
I want to thank the person that found his rating. I will apply for mine so I can try my hand at racing it next year. Like many of the 25 owners I love my boat. She is one of the largest 25's I have seen. Many people on the dock remark that it has nice features for the size.
My 25 has roller furl, wheel steering, 9 hp diesel, bimini. My only complaint is that I have to work on getting the proper prop for her. My diesel has lots of reserve left. Needs to be loaded a bit more. Like many of the other 25 owners you have to reef early. This year I did more big wind sailing than I have in the past. Under full sail she has done well with steady 16 knot winds. If they gust then I have to reef. Now to work on my traveler over the winter and the prop. "
You can look at the Watkins owners site here: http://www.watkinsowners.com
Interesting to look at.
TG
Isn't the Horizon cat hull based off of the old Herreshoff America catboat with the change of the centerboard to the keel/centerboard? I thought I read that somewhere.
Shawn
Quote from: Shawn on October 06, 2010, 06:07:32 PM
Isn't the Horizon cat hull based off of the old Herreshoff America catboat with the change of the centerboard to the keel/centerboard? I thought I read that somewhere.
Shawn
That's what this article (http://www.sailingmagazine.net/boats/3-perry-on-design/212-horizon-cat) says.