Well, I went ahead and did it now! Building yet another NACA 0014 rudder.
It is shaping up nicely. See progress pictures on our photobucket folder by clicking on the WORLD icon on left side.
Foam is sooooooooooooo much easier that the layered wood one. It will be glassed over and painted. Color?
Doug142
I asked our resident legend, Bruce Bingham - he's the guy who designed the hull of the Eclipse and has a long history with Compac and many others. I asked him about the NACA foil rudder for HideAway. He is in complete agreement with the need to make the change and the design. the 12 or the 14 is fine for our boats no wider. He's also the guy who convinced me to become loose footed with our main sail and he was dead on with that -- the combination will be wonderful Matt
Hide,
Do you need a template for either the 12 or 14 foil? I have sent several to other fellow com-pac sailors. Email me your address and I will send out a copy of each to you.
Doug
1983 CP-19 s/v Sweet Dreams
Doug -
Your work is eerily similar to what I did with my CP23 rudder back in '02-03. :) My old website had big pics that are no longer accessible, but you can still see the thumbnails here (http://web.archive.org/web/20021007031823/www.liquid-epiphany.com/foils.htm). I was making mine as a 2-piece, with the intention to be able to bond the two halves to the rudder plate itself *after* they were glassed. This was for two reasons: as a way to avoid water ingress into the foam, and to make it easy for any CP owner to add them to their boat. A buddy who I used to work with in the surfboard industry was going to pull a mold off of my design, and we were thinking we would be able to "semi-mass produce" a set of aftermarket foils for CP'ers, since at the time there was nobody making them other than just a few individual owners.
Then, about the time I was finishing up the last fine work on the foils, I began collaborating* with Joel at IdaSailor (http://www.idasailor.com/) in order for him to start production on the HDPE foils he still produces (http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=36) for Com-Pacs. That material was a better solution, was my thinking, as it was impervious to water, and largely the same to rocks or ramps. ;) Also, I didn't really want to get into yet another business, lol. Joel made the first prototype from my dimensions, sent it to me, and after a bit of testing and refinement and another try or two until it was perfect, it became a standard item offered thru his company.
I useda NACA-12 foil as it seemed to be the closest to what was needed for the speed of CP's. The first time I put a foil on the rudder I was *amazed* at what a huge difference in immediately made in how the boat handled.
-------
Disclaimer: I got to keep the final prototype for my boat. Other than that, I don't get any reimbursement or kickbacks. ;)
CaptnK,
Thanks, my first one was layered luan ply. A LOT of work!!! It is still in use today with our com-pac 16's new owners.
doug
Captain,
Is HDPE another word for Azek products? -or- is there a product name.
I made a new motor mount for my CP19. I have an NC spindle bed
which made very short work to cut out and flue together and now
putting a weather resistent finish on it... Does anyone else need on... I can make them
inexpensively...
I want to build a Nacra 014 foil this winter and was going to use a foam and
glass but you are saying that HDPE is a better base product before the glass. This would
be an easy fall project.
Thanks
Bob Condon
Hi Bob -
For folks who may not know: "Azek (http://www.azek.com/content-pages/about-azek.html)" is a product name for sheet foam PVC (Poly Vinyl Chloride). It is not a light product like insulation or deck-core foams; it is lighter than a plain sheet HDPE of a similar dimension, and nowhere near as heavy as HMWPE (High-Molecular Weight Polyethylene), which is what "StarBoard" is.
I made a large rooftop garden out of Azek for my sister a few years back. Interesting stuff. Turned some scraps into my 'screen door' companionway boards. :)
Based on what I've seen, I believe Joel is using plain sheet HDPE material on his foils. Think "white plastic cutting board material", it is pretty much that. Tough stuff! He makes the foiled part of the blade of that material, and mounts it onto a stainless steel 'spine' for strength. The HDPE material does not have a lot of resistance to bending, so I think the spine is essential.
You could do the same with Azek, and Azek would be easier to work, but it will have a rougher surface (more porous) when finished, and not be as resistant to getting dings. Maybe coating it with epoxy resin then paint after shaping, to smooth it out. Simple to test that before going all out with the project. :)
HTH!
In a departure from the norm, which seems to be normal for me, I built my foiled rudder using the original plate rudder as a base. 4 foiled frames of hardwood were bolted and epoxied to each side of the blade, the spaces between were filled with foam and sanded to the foil shape of the frames and the whole shebang was skinned with 3mm Okoume plywood from CLC.
The result was a wood foiled rudder blade that has worked great and is serving as a prototype and test rudder. I designed a downhaul to keep the floatable blade from floating up. The wood matches the teak on Koinonia almost perfectly.
I documented some of the building process on "The Continuing Adventures of Koinonia" in the 23 section. It looks great hanging off the transom of the ship. If I ever learn to post photos (please don't laugh) you all will see what I mean.
The entire project took a long time to complete due to my advanced degree in procrastinationogics and my tendecy to be a prefectioninst. Thanks are due to Doug 142 who sent me the NACA 0014 foil template. Inspiration was from others here at the site who were building foiled rudders last winter. I just took a different path than the others...the road less travelled.
Bob23
Thanks Bob23 and CaptainK
Thanks especially for the descriptive difference
I now have my plate at home so I can have a Stainless Steel spine welded up.
I think I will look for HDPE locally but I know I can get full sheets of 3/4 Asek for $130
and I understand I can get HDPE 12x48 is around 80....
I was thinking of using epoxy and fiberglass to improve the ding-resistence.
I also need to make a new tiller... Mine rotted out between the two pieces of aluminum
and came apart when we were coming in to pull the boat for the season... quite the shock...
Again, thanks
Bob
Is that AZEK stuff expensive? Was thinking I might like to make the hatch out of that. The one that came with the boat was really rotten and just fell apart when I tried to open it when I first got the boat. (Can't believe it's coming up on a year already.) So I used the old wood for a pattern and cut a new hatch out of plywood, then 6-8 coats of spar varathane and later on I put the window and screen in it. Also where do you get that?
home depot has a 1x8 board 8' long for around $25. With a router, it cuts just like wood. The N/C machine
cuts it very clean. A friend was making a half circle to make a startburst with the clapboards...
I am contemplating using it for making latice frames for under the porch... It will last forever with the new
Vinyl lattice.
The companionway hatch would be an excellent project
Gentlemen - what is an NC machine? Would it add much to the clutter filling my garage?
Ron
N/c Machine is a Numerically Controlled computer driven router/spindle.
SO I can mount a piece of wood in the bed of the machine (which is 5 feet x 9 feet) BIG garage clutter
and with a computer I can design a 3 dimensional picture (a sign, a wooden picture of the Last Supper)
and can drive any number of carbide router/machining bits through wood, plastic, light metal etc to make
objects...
so for the rudder, I would create a file which contains all the x,y,z points on a rudder and ever 1/8", run a cutter
through those points and make a smooth shape of a rudder, which I would sand and finish.
Making a new motor mount block for my Cp19 took 5 minutes to design, 5 minutes to write the files and bring to the machine,
and about 7 minutes to cut after I mounted the block on the table.
The machine I own is on website: http://www.shopbottools.com/mProducts/prSalpha.htm
I make a lot of signage, put playing with things like custom rudders, etc...
Bob Condon
Sorry, don't have an extra $20,000 laying around for one of those! I fiberglass'd my hand shaped and sanded foil this morning. Looking good at my photobucket files at left side of this post ...click on the World icon.
Save $$$
Doug
Pic of the IDA HPDE NACA0012 rudder with stainless "spine" Captl was talking about...
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z290/yamaholic_mcarp/Island%20Time/DSC01478.jpg)
And heck one from the 16 with attached mast crutch for good measure :)
Very nice units. The auto kickup/down feature works well when in shallow water.
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z290/yamaholic_mcarp/Fun/PICT7604.jpg)
On the UniFoil rudders I don't think there is any stainless in them at all.
The stainless was in the replacement rudders that fit the stock rudder head.
(http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/images/cp23%20latest.jpg)
The rudder at the stock rudder head is much narrower so they needed the stainless for strength in there. On the Unifoil the rudder is much thicker at the rudder head.
Shawn
Hi Shawn,
Sorry if my post was misleading...yep the one in my pics is solid HDPE with zero core. The stainless referred to is the mounting assembly of IDA's Kick Up Foil Rudder Assembly only.
I put this on before sailing the first time on the 19 based on the excellent results from the 16. Sure makes these boats point higher, hold their line and of course power steering makes long sails a "breeze".
Hey Doug- Very nice work, as usual!
Can I make a suggestion on the color? Match up the rudder with a sunbrella color that you like and that compliments the boat.
Then when you do get around to making cushions and other covers it will all match up nicely and coordinate. Also white always looks good and will look as if it belongs there from the factory (to a non-trained eye). If you paint a base coat of darker color it will be easy to see where you ned to touch it up in the future. Also white reflects heat and therefore perhaps will cause less heat damage to the foam/epoxy (if that's even possible in WI) over time.
If you're not handy with the sewing machine and want to make some covers (tiller, winch, lifeline, rudder etc) , give me a shout...I can probably make them for you since you made the furler base for me. Just say the word!
P.S. Have you sailed her yet?
HI Mike,
Good to hear from you. Been very busy with work and everything else around here. We are at a point to take the boat out for the first time. This past Sunday was suppose to be that date. However, the Wisconsin forcast did it again. Not good weather at all.
Thanks for the kind words about the rudder. This one is my first foam and glass one. I ran the foam and glass a little to high up and ended up cutting an inch of the foil off the top end. I couldn't pull the rudder up to the UP position!
Linda is very good with sewing and has all the material for the cushion re-do. Over Winter project I do believe. Thanks for the offer.
If we get one weekend day that isn't to cold, we have cold weather gear, and not raining, we are going sailing. Our first outing will be Lake Kegonsa, Wisconsin.
It is just up the road a bit.
Truck is all fixed. We are READY!
Doug and Linda
Sweet Dreams, CP-19
Doug,
Where do you put in on Lake Kegonsa? Decent ramp? We haven't sailed that lake yet and we'd like to come down and give it a try.
Mike and Brenda
Hi guys,
We haven't gotten a chance to sail our 19 footer yet!!!!
We put in at Lake Kegonsa at the state park there. Have the yearly park pass for state parks in Wisconsin so don't pay launch fee or daily fee.
Nice ramp, nice park, they even have a dock over by the picnic area.
I think I still have your phone number, can call when we plan on going?
Lake Kegonsa also has a website you could check out.
Been sailing there three times when we had the 16.
Let us know. Hope all is well with you.
Doug and Linda
Sweet Dreams, CP-19, Year 1983
Salty19
How this is the thickest portion of the rudder you show. I am building a naca00014 profile
and am guessing that the thickest portion is about 1.5 inches... any change at either an estimate
or measuring it.
I am using a NC machine to cut the material but will play with foam as a prototype.
Many thanks!
Bob Condon
Bob--I'm not sure what you're asking. I didn't make my own, I slapped on IDA's version so I don't have any figures or likewise from creating one.
But I do have an actual (not scale) shape of the NACA0012 template for the 19 if you would like one. I can measure it later if that's what you need.
Salty19,
Sorry for not being clear.
What I am asking is for a measurement of the thickest part on the NACA0012 section of the rudder (near the leading edge)
I am assuming it is around 1.5 inches. This is an input on my spreadsheet, but I can cut any thickness on the machine.
The standard compac rudder is 12 " front to back and about 26" is in the water and the entire plate is 1/4" thick.
Many thanks
Bob Condon
Bob--Sure thing. I'll check tonight with a micrometer.
Bob, the max width of the naca0012 foil on my CP19 is 1 1/4".
Hope that helps,
that helps a lot!
Thanks
Bob
Folks,
If one has to start from scratch with no on hand materials(having simple tools), how much do you think it would cost to build the 0014 as discussed in this post. Forget man hours, because that is where the enjoyment comes in after a few frustrations. Just curious what the difference in price would be between a factory one and home made personal pride one.
David
ANy answer is true.
Grab a pocket knife and whittle for the rest of your life. -or- spend $24K on a N/C based machine
or anything in between.
I bet to realistically build a rudder that would perform, you would need to spend $700 in tools to get the level of precision
you would want... For accuracy, I would think that a good router would be needed and make profile "ribs" to be able to get the
correct shape using a router that you would run between two profile ribs
bob
Bob- I hear of good results from any foil from 0010 to 0014. I think I could make a rudder with that much leeway in my garage on a sanding machine. IMHO.
Hey Newt,
I think you are looking at tis a bit too simply.
You need to cut the material to size which is probably a portable jig saw.
You need to put steel in the center for strength and manufacture the connection
which will require a router with bits to handle the metal/wood connections
You need clamps to glue this together
I would recommend cutting the profiles in plywood (requires that saw) and then cut the
profile consistently. You could cut the profile with a belt sander and you will go through a lot
of belts in the process.
The belts are $5 each and you will need to go from 23 grit to 60 80 120 180 ... that a lot of belts
Need drill and bits for the holes in the holding structure...
David does not have any tools... if he had a friend with tools, then the price will be redced but
will not have built any skill set up front. Tools are an investment in equipment and skill over time...
The project is more than just cutting a profile...
To all:
Here is a brief rundown on my NACA 0012 wood rudder construction project last winter. I started with the stock aluminum blade, cut 8 foil shaped frames (4 per side) of some mahogany scraps, screwed and epoxied them to the blade, filled in between with HD pink foam, shaped the foam to the foil shape using the frames as guides with a Japanese Shinto rasp, made a nose piece of yet more mahogany lumber lying around, and sheathed the entire thing with 3m Okoume plywood. The rudder recieved a bottom and top cap of white oak (nice color contrast) and the entire blade was coated with 4 coats of West System epoxy.
Using this method, I was able to shift more of the body area forward, thus theoretically reducing the amount of weather helm. I also fabricated a downhaul system for this blade- good thing because it floats!
Being a carpenter/builder, I already had all the tools I needed so it was all labor, materials of which the Okoume and epoxy was the greatest expense.
I have photos but I haven't learned to post 'em here. I can email them to anyone interested.
The construction was much more involved than it seems here, but the result is a wonderful looking wood foiled rudder blade that compliments the well maintained teak on "Koinonia".
Bob23
To Bob23,
I have indeed seen your very beautiful rudder. A creation to be very proud of.
Nothing better than creating something with your hands. GREAT job.
Side note: And it works!
Doug142
Bob,
I would like to see your rudder. My email address is billybbingham@yahoo.com
and if you want I can email you instructions on how to post pictures!!!
Billy:
I send you some photos. If you can email me instructions on how to post photos, you'll have done society a great service..or dis-service depending on who you speak with.
Bob23
Well, I have wanted to build a foiled rudder for my 19 for a few years now. I have read accounts of improved handling, minimization of weather helm and virtual power steering with spittle drool running down my chin and soaking the shirt covering my ample, rotund and fully paid for beer belly top shelf. I have procrastinated and then I procrastinated some more (the Good Lord knows, good things await the patient).
As most of you know, Steve Brown placed a classified for his IDA rudder, and I found myself wiring the funds to him that very day. A very good deal made my procrastination pay off! Steve shipped it to me so fast there was still water clinging to it (made hiding it from the Admiral very easy - almost power steering - like). I'll have to wait til Sunday to try it on for size - s'posed to rain C&D's all day tomorrow.
Thanks, Steve!!!
Iv'e told myself for years I'm gonna give up procrastinating as soon as I can get around to it!`
Congrats on the rudder...you will love it.
Bob23
Quote from: Tim Gardner on April 15, 2011, 05:30:24 PM
with spittle drool running down my chin and soaking the shirt covering my ample, rotund and fully paid for beer belly top shelf.
Surely you've ordered the optional spittle drool collector from IDA? Just plumb the hoses to the holding tank and you're good. Can't stain those hawaiian shirts!
Salty - Naw, I just let my goatee get a little longer. The latent heat of evaporation helps cool my chin. Bob, I told you that good things come to those that wait.
I'll write up a trip report post the addafoiltome operation.
tg
Indeed, good things do come to those who wait but "procrastination is the thief of time". Somehow, you have managed to cheat this law. Sometimes, it's not easy to disguish between the two.
I waited for about 2 years before I found my 23. Had I jumped the gun, I might have ended up with a lesser boat. Maybe she just waited for me.
Wipe that drool off your face...you look silly!
Bob23
(ps: I plumbed the drool hoses directly overboard. Easier that way.)
NO, this looks silly:
(http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae355/tigar100dner/boat%20pics/TJG.jpg)
Taken 10 years ago in Bah Hahbah.
TG
This confirms my suspicions...we only let the most sophisticated sailors aboard here!
Love the hat...
Bob23