Keeping proper pitch is very helpful for better speed and control. Sometimes it's hard to tell if your boat is nose or stern heavy, but I offer a cheap and easy solution. Those heeling level meters work great if mounted in a bow to stern fashion. I have one mounted on each side of cockpit.
Not meaning to sound sarcastic, and I will admit to having way too many modern electronics on Miss B but leave the levels at home for building cabinets on the hard and "feel" the boat speed/levelness in your butt.
Capt'n Jim
It's a sad state of affairs when a person offers free and helpful advice and it's blasted out of the water. Yes, some can feel proper pitch with their butt, yet crew and/or guest can not. It's so simple to tell your crew and/or guest to help keep the boat level by looking at one of those heeling angle levels than to keep telling them to move forward or aft.
I don't think Jimmy was blasting you out of the water. I like the idea of the fore and aft levels so I may give it a try. I've found that my 23 likes to have some weight forward to maintain balance...seems to help her point a little higher.
Caboose: What do you sail? 16? 19? 23? When you install the level, I assume you set it up level when the boat is at rest and on her lines.
Thanks for the advice,
Bob23 & s/v 1985 23/2 "Koinonia"
Caboose,
I apologize if you took my comments as an attempt to criticize. It was meant to be more "cute" than anything. Most of my sailing is done off the east coast and more often than not is in rolling seas that keep the boat on an uneven heel constantly. When bay sailing in more level waters, like Bob's 23 Miss B likes a little weight forward and with her very flat bottom makes it very clear when she levels out. If you are class racing and it helps gain even a bit of an advantage, go for it! Again sorry if my comments were taken to heart.
Capt'n Jim
Let's maintain our sense of humor here, men. Jimmy: I did the same thing a few years ago right here at the site and it was taken wrong. Of course, after apologies and some time, everything was forgotten and new friendships were formed.
I noticed yesterday when my nephew-in-law Steve and I were sailing and he went forward to take a photo, the boat speed increased noticably. Hmm...interesting.
Bob23
So true Bob. With our former boat (Starwind 19) I played around with weights, moving for and aft until I found the right spot that increased speed and performance. It turned out to be under the V-berth, so I mounted 2 deep cycle batteries there. They're combined weight was a bit much when I was alone, but with someone else in the cockpit, worked out nice. Just make sure all the regular gear is in it's proper place and you test it with your usual mate.
I think as long as we have a port/starboard bubble, may as well enjoy a fore/aft bubble.
No harm can come from it.
Hard part is finding just where the zero bubble is while she's in the water. I think I'd have to do this on a level trailer and level boat on the trailer.
skip.
I'd say nay, nay Skip: Wouldn't you set the level to level when the boat sits on her lines while at rest? Just my too sense. As aside: My old Seapearl 21 was so sensitive that 4 bricks in a milk crate placed forward made a hugh difference.
I've noticed that sailing my 23 with the tiller lashed, I can surf the boat. That is, I can steer her by shifting my weight not just side to side but fore and aft.
BTW: I love this site. I have learned so much over the years...let's keep the knowledge and wisdom coming!
Bob23
Sailing alone some years back noticed that sitting as far forward as I could (with the tiller tamer locked down) I'd pick up speed. Problem was solved somewhat by removing weight on or near the stern. She still sails better with the admiral on the bow. Looks better too.
A few other CP sailors have noted that CP23s tend to be stern heavy. I have about 120 lbs of ground tackle on the bow and no outboard and still just a bit stern heavy with one person in the cockpit. Maybe I could lighten the load in the cockpit lockers a bit but not much.
Curtis
Fascinating- she goes faster with less weight on her butt. I can't believe I have missed this thread until now. I am definitely going to reinstall my batteries (up front) and probably get rid of my outboard. I guess we can move the balance too far forward. Anyone here do that?
Quote from: newt on September 26, 2010, 09:05:28 PM
Fascinating- she goes faster with less weight on her butt. I can't believe I have missed this thread until now. I am definitely going to reinstall my batteries (up front) and probably get rid of my outboard. I guess we can move the balance too far forward. Anyone here do that?
Newt.
This has been discussed quite a few times in the last 10 years on the Yahoo compac list, then here. I don't know anyone that ever said that they ended up with too much weight on the bow though its probably possible.
Most often you hear of a few people in the cockpit and water coming up the scuppers.
With two couples on the boat, the two women on the bow balances my CP23 quite well and they get to gab and wave to everyone. All four in the cockpit and we are definitely bow up a little and dragging the transom just a tiny bit.
I have a 27 pound anchor, 80 pounds of chain and a bit over 20 lbs of line on the bow. That's 80' and 250' or rode so I can anchor in 50-70 feet of water if I ever need to.
With one person aboard it is easy to lash the tiller and move about and watch the knotmeter. You can feel the boat speed change as well. For me just aft of the shrouds and as far outboard seems to be the place to be for boat trim but not a convenient place to stay and can't steer from there.
I have 160 lbs of battery under the companionway stairs but that is another story. I can't really more that forward without reducing storage. Moving that near the bow would have a very big effect though.
Filling the water tank might help a little though all that weight would be on the starboard side. I keep both the water tank and holding tank empty (or very near empty).
Curtis
Fair enough. I do not have a holding tank or a marine head. I am thinking about the area forward of the keel to put my batteries in. I set up my self steering and then move all over the boat, but I generally spend my time in the cabin with my head popping out every few minutes or so. What do I do down there? Eat, read and listen to music. I like the looks on the faces of people I pass when they can't see anyone on board and the little ghost ship passes them by....
Re: weight aft affecting pitch & therefore speed: Running down the Ditch (a cut-canal part of the ICW) under power one calm and windless day with my CP23-D, tiller lashed and going in a straight line, I noticed that according to the GPS I picked up .10/kt by scootching as far forward as possible on the cockpit seat. If I slid aft to about 1/2 the seat length, I would lose that speed. Going up to the bow and leaning out over the pulpit, I picked up 3.5 knots.
(OK, that 3.5 kts part is a joke... ;D )
In all seriousness - I really did see an extra tenth of a knot just by shifting forward in the cockpit, 'extra' speed that I could lose just as easily by sitting 2-3' further back. It was easily repeatable, and I confirmed it over the next hour or so by doing it several times. Forever after (no pun intended - har!), I began consciously stowing lots more stuff, and heavier, in the v-berth. :)
Katie Marie (my current boat, a Pearson Ariel) has the same tendency to 'squat' - like most Alberg designs, she's very sensitive about weight aft. In my redesign, I have moved the batteries from under the companionway to just aft the main bulkhead, where the box they sit in provides a step up into the elevated v-berth. Main water tankage is just forward of that same bulkhead, putting these weighty items 3-6 feet forward of the wide point of the boat. I also raised the v-berth level approx. 9", and have deep and copious storage underneath now, which makes it easy to stow more stuff forward, and helps keep her from burying her stern.
I noticed this a few years ago while motoring. Dead calm water and no wind, we motored about 2 hours and out of sheer boredom, my brother in law went to the bow. We went from 4.5 knots to 5.5 knots. Not a joke.
I am outboard powered with not an abnormally amount of extra weight in the stern lockers. And I carry my water as far forward as possible.
I guess this is just another chapter in the never ending quest for more efficiency in our little boats...and thereby achieving more speed! There is always a race out there, right?
Iv'e also played around with shifting my weight from side to side while sailing. Seems the 23's are sensitive to this. With the tiller lashed, I'll stand on the bridge deck and move from side to side and "surf" the boat. What fun! I've also noticed that in light winds, I can point higher by sitting forward on the leeward side thus inducing some heel and even pick up a little speed.
I guess I'll experiment with moving some of my stuff down below this winter...another thing to add to the list!
Bob23
It is one of the first things I noticed when I first sailed my 23. And one of the primary reasons for the plan to change motors, along with ease of mounting and dismounting. Dropping 50 lbs. from the end of that moment arm should be very helpful. Additionally, one battery goes and my new inflatable and accessories including a booster pak to replace the battery will fit in the locker just behind the anchor locker forward. Considering moving other not used very often heavy items to the locker under the V berth. Eventually getting rid of the sliders, and moving the galley components to the cabin bulkhead, including the often heavy cooler. Every thing I can move forward, closer to or in front of the center of rotation is fair game.
Good points.
I really should move my battery forward...I didn't have enough on my winter upgrade list. It makes sense because, for it's size, it's probably the heaviest piece of equuiptment we carry and it's quite easy to relocate. And I could store the propane grill where the battery now lives.
Although I love tiller steering, by nature it puts more weight aft. Iv'e toyyed with (in my mind at least) a small wood wheel on the starboard side next to the companionway with a variation of the old Teleflex steering. I love the look and location of the wood wheel on the Horizon Cat but my goal would be to move weight forward. Maybe keep a tiller option. On the other hand, why make things more complicated than they need to be? Can't get much simpler than a tiller, eh?
Bob23
Quote from: Bob23 on September 27, 2010, 05:11:18 AM
I noticed this a few years ago while motoring. Dead calm water and no wind, we motored about 2 hours and out of sheer boredom, my brother in law went to the bow. We went from 4.5 knots to 5.5 knots. Not a joke.
Wow! He must be really heavy. :-)
Quote from: Bob23 on September 27, 2010, 05:11:18 AM
Iv'e also played around with shifting my weight from side to side while sailing. Seems the 23's are sensitive to this. With the tiller lashed, I'll stand on the bridge deck and move from side to side and "surf" the boat. What fun! I've also noticed that in light winds, I can point higher by sitting forward on the leeward side thus inducing some heel and even pick up a little speed.
I sailed with a Wianno sailor (see http://www.wiannosenior.org/rules.htm (http://www.wiannosenior.org/rules.htm) is you are not familiar with the Wianno) and he was big on sitting to leaward in light air. It seemed to have a lot more effect on his Wianno than my CP23. Apparently this is a dinghy sailor's technique although the wianno weighs over 4,000 pounds.
Curtis
ps - Matt on his Wianno, on the leaward side of course, though this was downwind (with the spinaker up). Notice the two fingers on the tiller. Now that is a balanced helm.
(http://localweb.orleans.occnc.com/photos/2010/20100806-matts-wianno/photo03.jpg)
"Heavy..there's that word again. Is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pull?"
He'a about 200 lbs but right on the bow that made a big difference. Little known but worthless fact: A few years ago, he and I got in a weight loss contest. I won by .6 lbs. We went out for pizza to celebrate!
I think I was just reverting back to my surfing days! But it's sorta fun to experiment while under sail. I first did this on my old SeaPearl 21. With the tiller lashed, I could stand on the bow in light air and she'd point at leat 5 degrees higher. Plus it's fun to watch the boat sail with no one at the helm!
Bob23