Awhile ago I changed HideAways main sail to loose footed and promised to post photos-- Well how about a video instead?
We were out sailing in our usual haunts last weekend getting used to how the boat handles with the modification. You might hear in the film that we were doing 5.9kn in a 10kn breeze. Although reading the pilings did not indicate a fast tide I believe the tide was contributing a good knot or so to the gps speed.
I still can t quite believe the difference in how she handles and how fast she sails now--- I have another video in production that shows the tiller unattended for long periods - She's a different boat now -- have a look below
http://www.youtube.com/user/SVHideAway
Good video. Is that the normal main or a sail change? Same battens?
Hideaway-Thanks..I always your enjoy your stories and video's.
Loose foots are definitely nice! Had one made for my 16 and it really made it fly and close to the wind. Now with the new to me CP19 with boltrope, your thread is good timing.
The multi purchase outhaul is a great idea.
Thanks again and happy sailing.
Carry On- Yes it is a standard main in need of replacement. There has been much discussion at our sailing club about building a shelf in the main along the foot. The idea is the same as the vertical fin on a jet plane wing - its supposed to keep the air from falling off the sail and provide more lift. Most of the racers have them now. Small stuff makes a difference in this sport! M
Thanks for the video,looks interesting.
What happens when you reef?
Shawn
impressive video! Makes me want to change my main tomorrow!
Thanks, Mike. I have a spare sail slug so I may try this later today or Monday.
Bob23
That was a fine video, I'd like to see tell tails stuck on the leading and trailing edges of both sails, and to see these plastered horizontally flat against the sail would really illustrate the work the sails are doing. So aside from crabbing up into the wind a bit more, do we see an increase in SOG? [Knots]?
Keep in mind that for every 15 lb of force on the sails about 1 lb of force makes it to the keel to drive the boat.
I don't sail 'loose footed'. My catboat Penquin, designed by Phil Rhodes, did have a loose footed main AND a vertical batton about in the middle of the one sail for what ever that's worth. Hummmmmmmm. I wonder.
I too have sailed 'hands off' the tiller for about 2 1/2 hours coming back from Marionette-Menominee to Sturgeon Bay. I had no particular tract in mind. Just locked everything down and let C&J go. I think I fell asleep. Of course my CP-19 is no racing boat. Just a safe family boat.
skip.
Shawn-
When you reef pull the out haul out to flatten the main sail then reef normally. The idea is to depower the main. You will sail faster and safer with a reefed main than you will if the main is unreefed and powered up. Racers tell me it is not uncommon reef 15 times during a race! I had one captain of a 40 footer tell me he lost a race because they did not reef and had to watch a 28 footer sail right by them. We don t race however if I can shave off a couple of hours from Gulfport to Dunedin the difference is enjoying the sun set or having supper in the dark. Matt
This is great stuff. I tried it this weekend in 15 mph winds gusting to 22. Delightful set her new speed record on GPS - 7.2 MPH.
Sorry, what I meant to ask is does the sail depower as well loose footed as with the sail in the track?
Have you seen any stress issues on the main or the boom? All forces along the foot of the sail are now at just two points.
Thanks,
Shawn
Shawn, The truth is almost all the strain on a boltrope main is already on the two ends. Check for yourself, I bet you can move the foot around in the middle of a boltrope main.
Many CP owners have changed sails to loose footed without any reports of failure that I'm aware. 'course if one failed very few would own up to it. I had a loose foot (cut that way on a new sail) on the 16 and sailed 'er pretty hard (rail in the water) with zero ill effects. This should not be a concern but always good to be suspicious of unknown (to you) modifications.
I'll be setting up my boltrope main to loose foot this week.
Hideaway, thanks again for the video.
There are other factors involved, but a loose footed main sail can have better performance than one with a bolt rope tying it to the boom. The difference is sail shape at the bottom few feet of the sail - you can continue the air foil shape all of the way down. The bolt rope tends to straignten it out. Some of the other factors include the size of the sail. Some loose footed designs don't quite make it to the boom anywhere in the middle (mast rolled mains for example, and others) - you've got several inches or more of space showing. The faster sails tend to have cloth that extends down and partially covers the boom. To take advantage of this you've also got to trim the outhaul for the current wind strength.
Most of the strain is on the leech at the aft end of the boom. The rest is on the luff forward. Not much in the middle at all. On a sloop the back half of the main is what's developing most of that sails force.
There's one other nice thing about a loose foot, especially on larger boats. You don't have to gradually thread the bolt rope into the track. Just slide the aft slide into the track and yank on the outhaul. Makes a difference with a 12 or 15 foot boom where you wind up fighting it otherwise.
Great video Matt! I'm going to give it a try as soon as I relaunch from my road trip. Doing a little post trip maintenance right now. Should have bought the second block when I was down in an area that actually had stores for that purpose. Now, back to mail order.
Anyone happen to know the size of the sail slug on the 23s main? My main doesn't have one and I want to add it to give loose foot a try.
Thanks,
Shawn
Shawn, if you have a out haul on a pulley- that should be all that you need. What do the others feel about this?
Matt:
In your video, you inadvertantly gave us a sneek preview of your self steering setup. I'd like to get more info on how it's run, how it works, etc. I haven't converted the sail to a loose footed main yet although I have the slug...been involved with evaluating my new rudders perfomance.
Thanks for the vid.
Bob23
Quote from: Shawn on June 12, 2010, 01:38:36 PM
Anyone happen to know the size of the sail slug on the 23s main? My main doesn't have one and I want to add it to give loose foot a try.
Thanks,
Shawn
Dimension on mine are as follows:
Diameter: Just under 1/2" actually measures .470
Length: 2"
SS strap insert OAL: 1-1/4"
SS strap height from composite barrel: 1/2"
Strap insert is to attach to the clew with a heavy canvas strap.
Hope this helps
Newt,
I do have a 2:1 like in the video but I want the slide to keep the clew of the sail down to the boom. Otherwise when I let out the outhaul it will be going up as well as just out.
Thanks,
Shawn
Thanks for the dimensions, I'll see what I can find that is close to that.
Shawn
The sail slide I bought from West Marine after we broke several one windy day. A metal one would be better for the main sail clew.
Its hard to see on the video but I actually have a three part tackle due to how the line runs. It seems to do the trick.
Bob I don't remember who we bought the self steering gear from-- it was at a boat show in St Petersburg years ago. I'll see if I can get a photo this weekend. It is a line attached to a ss spring. The ends of the line have knots tied in them with spaces to add strength. The knob on the tiller came with the unit and is slotted to hold the line but not let the knots slip through. The spring makes the small adjustments of waves and wind gusts. You could probably rig something using strong shock cords and a couple of blocks.
I have another video that shows the set up better but utube has lost my password - not a problem you say -- well they say I have to sign in via google since may account is linked- only problem is -- its not linked..... around we go ... most companies have an easy fix - utube google -- they won't let you talk to a human and none of thier fixes work --- anybody know another place I can post videos to??? Matt
"Its hard to see on the video but I actually have a three part tackle due to how the line runs. It seems to do the trick."
How do you have it run? I tried to see this in the video but it looks like one end of the line is tied to the end of the boom, runs through the block on the clew, to the block on the end of the boom then forward to the cleat. If that is how you have it run it is a 2:1 system, only two lines working on the load (sail). The third line (back to the cleat) is on the anchor and is simply changing direction, not giving a mechanical advantage.
If you are tied to the clew, go to the block on the end of the boom, to the block on the clew then back to a cleat it would be a 3:1 system as three lines are working on the load. Do you have another block on the boom turning the line to go forward to the cleat?
Shawn
Shawn
The third line goes to the cleat- the problem is it is difficult to pull the line forward. I need to put a cheek block forward of the cleat then I could pull the line back instead of pushing the line forward. The only way to get the 3;1 is to move the line directly forward to the cleat - can't use the cleat to change the direction because the friction is too great. There seems to be good power either way - but the cheek block is the ansewer to getting a 3;1 that is easier to achieve.
not sure how much sense that makes.... Matt
Hello All, Last season I bought a Rolly Tasker main for my C P 16 Mark One and installed it using the bolt rope. This year I decided to make use of the slug at the clew and have been sailing loose footed,albeit in light breezes. The difference seemed considerable, but I thought perhaps I had forgotten just how the boat responded last season. This thread has convinced me otherwise . The CP 16 of the vintage of mine won no prizes for sailing close to the wind, but one can get a lot closer loose footed than attaching with the bolt rope . Other owners of old model 16's might be pleasantly surprized. RTH.
I have a 16 with a loose footed main I realy do like it , I made a small car useing 2 sail slugs that ride in the boom track as a outhual .That works well for me .Ill try to post some pics of the differnt types I tryed . Rob
Well ,got the sail slug, line and pulley......fun experiment, but didn't work very well as the topping lift had to be attached to the boom, otherwise got hit in the head as the aft end of the boom sagged so low that it required a" duck" or else you got hit.............played with sail shape but still the rope in the boom worked just as well if not better...............maybe I am missing something, well try again if for no other reason it was fun to try something different....the 16's sail was designed to be attached to the boom ..................Phil
Quote from: nies on June 24, 2010, 10:49:32 PM
the aft end of the boom sagged so low that it required a" duck" or else you got hit
Sounds like something is wrong. I don't know the 16, but the average sloop needs a topping lift on the boom mainly when the main sail is furled. The leech will otherwise hold the boom up, regardless of whether the sail is loose footed or not. If you needed the line to hold the boom up either way, it appears that the leech is too long and the sail is not really capable of holding a reasonable shape when flying. The sheet and/or vang should be holding the leech tight with the boom pulled down. Up is the wrong direction.
Or did you mean that the boom is too low when the main is furled?
End of boom hangs down when sail is raised when loose footed......if you pull sail tight enough to hold the aft end of boom up you might as well have the sail in the slot of the boom............Phil
The purpose of the loose foot is to allow the foot of the sail to develop a curve as far down as the boom. A bolt rope prevents that. There should be virtually no force on the sail's foot pulling down (or up) at any other point than the leech and luff. The outhaul will allow you do change that curve - tighter as the wind picks up.
Thanks Ron, hasn't rained in seven years and now it won't stop, Hayward, Wisc. has been in a drought and lake levels have been at a all time low, when it stops raining I will play with the loose footed sail again................Phil
OK, you all have convinced me to try this loose footed sail on my Eclipse so I step my mast while on my drive way and made the change, it was very easy to do. The hard part will be waiting until I can actually get her in the water to try it out!
Are "loose footed sails" from a factor sail store shaped differently as loose footed sails compared to taking a rope sail and using it as a loose footed sail as we are doing now?
Glenn
The shape of the sail at the foot is sligltly different on a sail specifically built to have a loose foot. A sewn in bolt rope will not allow the foot to curve out as much. It was designed to hold the sail straight on the boom track and let it flare out a drop a few inches above that point. Sort of like a pleat but not as obvious. Many loose footed sails also have a foot that drops down a few inches below the top of the boom as well. That helps to block the air going over the boom from getting through. Using a main sail with a bolt rope in the foot as a loose foot would negate some of the advantages. Notice the foot of the sail on my Telstar. This has a real loose foot which actually hangs down to about the bottom of the boom.
(http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq88/CaptRon400/loosefoot2.jpg)
Well I sailed a few times now with the loose footed arrangement. Basically an exact copy of Hideaways setup, including the outhaul purchase system. Thanks again Hideaway for posting the video and comments.
Seems to work well. At first (light winds) I didn't notice anything different. I had crew onboard and that fact alone distacts you from analyzing things too much. In medium winds the boat sails a tad closer to the wind me thinks. As for tiller effort, I'm using the naca 0012 foil...there is almost no effort to steer the boat already so the loose foot didn't change this. I don't need it with any less effort (you can steer with one loose hand in all points of sail).
So far so good...more testing is needed and that will come this weekend at the Com-pac rendezvous at Carlyle lake, IL.
We've had a chance to sail in higher winds with the loose footed main. High teens gusting to mid 20s over the Independence day holiday.
Weather helm returns although not quite as bad probably because there is some curve to the sail even when the outhaul is pulled tight. As the wind increased so did the weather helm until we finally decided to reef. HideAway was rail down and if the gps can be believed approaching 7kn in choppy but not rough seas. There probably was a tide influence but we were doing 6.5 on the other tack.
Until that day I did not think it was possible to fall off a Compac 23 however as I was balanced on the transom trying to pull the outhaul back against the force of the wind with the rail in the water the thought occurred. Must have a cheek block to make the job less harrowing next time. Reefing was easy - remove the sail stop - drop two slides - tighten the second out haul and later tie the buntlines. Once reefed we were doing 5.5- 5.8 and sailing on our lines. Very much relaxed and safe. We do not stop the boat during reefing letting the jib do most of the work. Linda stays on the tiller and I do the reef.
I'm still sold on the concept and plan, when the weather cools off some to do the rudder mod as well.
Oh...I've started a blog[[ below]] where I am posting our sailing adventures below. I will post a movie of the holiday sail when I get it done. Matt