I'm getting close to buying an Horizon - I'll order a new one with an outboard in case I can't find something used (diesel or outboard) in the next few weeks. Two things that concern the standard Magic Tilt trailers that come with this boat (and probably a number of the others):
The tandem axle trailer comes with 10 inch wheels with 8 inch brake drums behind them. This really bothers me a lot - the tiny wheels will be rotating nearly 4 times faster than my trucks wheels. Around town it shouldn't matter, but 1500 miles on an interstate is another case. Bearings will tend to overheat and wear out, tires will wear out a lot faster. Since I'd be sailing off of the trailer, it will be backed up into salt water a number of times, and drum brakes are really not the best thing for this environment. I've had a half dozen boat trailers with drums and you're going to have problems no matter how often and carefully you flush them out. I carry a 2 gallon garden tank sprayer on the truck to wash them out, but it doesn't really help all that much. The "open" disc brake rotor is a lot easier to flush out, and the salt water will totally drain anyway. Not so with the enclosed drums. Discs have other advantages as well, including much faster cool down and the ability to easily look at how much friction material is left on the pads and the overall shape of the assembly.
I spoke to Com-Pac and Magic Tilt about adding 13 inch wheels with 10 inch discs, waiting for an answer. This will work only on a new trailer - I'd be stuck with what they are doing on any used one. I imagine that many of the Com-Pac supplied trailers have the above wheels and brakes. Anyone have an problems or similar concerns?
Thanks
Ron M
(nearly an Horizon owner)
Ron,
I changed my 10 inch wheels to 14 and what a difference in towing.
I have plans to add brakes to the trailer this spring.
You can read my post under the "ECLIPSE" section.
I had some great help from people on this site with information on adding brakes.
Glenn
Hi Ron. I have a CP23 and converted my drums to a disc configuration. I wasn't too bad a job, but I have 13" rims. I don't think you'll find any disc brakes to fit 10" rims. If I were you and the trailer had 10" rims with drums, I'd not sweat it too much and just leave it as is. Once the brakes needed replacement, re-evaluate it at that time and weigh the difference between servicing the drum brakes or replacing the axles, rims and going with disc brakes. Other than the additional expense, I can't see changing from 10" to 13" rims as being too difficult.
When I bought my 23 this was the first boat I've owned with a trailer. For the first few months I was really sweating the "trailering" part of boat ownership. I was so wrapped up with that damn trailer I was feeling more like a trailer owner rather than a boat owner. But that was many, many miles ago. Now it's like "grease it and go!"
In my opinion, if Com-Pac thinks 10" rims with drum brakes is all you'll need, I'd think you could rest assured. Sure it's cheaper for them, but I don't think they'd intentionally sell or recommend a dangerous product just to save a 100 bucks on a trailer. There's too much at stake for them and you.
Ron,
My experience is based on my Eclipse, which has a single-axle trailer. The 10" tires are marginal for that application and, with apologies to kchunk, they are dangerous, even if they are what Com-Pac sells.
If your trips will be mostly to nearby ramps, the standard configuration may be fine. But if you're considering cross-country towing, I'd go for the best damned tires I could find and that excludes 10" tires. Selection and availability of 10" tires are limited, and quality is low.
The trade off is that the extra height of 13" or 14" tires will make launching a little more difficult. The 10" tires have a 20.5" diameter. High quality 13 or 14-inchers are going to be 24 to 25 inches in diameter. But poking the trailer a little farther into the water beats the heck out of sitting by the freeway changing trailer tires, or waiting for AAA.
Don't buy a trailer with 10" tires thinking it will be easy or inexpensive to upgrade later. If you do upgrade it will probably be after spending quite a bit on replacing blown out tires, and, while I don't know this particular trailer, it may require a new undercarriage and new fenders to accommodate the larger tires. So now's the time to make the decision, not later.
Have you posted this question on the Trailer-Sailor Forum? You'll get a lot of feedback there.
No apologies needed. After all, it's our differing opinions that Ron is looking for to make this decision as difficult as possible for him. ;)
What you were saying is absolutely right and is certainly a safer option. But I suppose my point was to not necessarily obsess over the details (Not saying that you were, Ron). Sure we want to be as safe as possible, but at the same time, sailing (to most) is a hobby. It's something we want to get out there and do. If I wanted to, I could think of dozens of reasons why I shouldn't tow my boat to the Keys. It's far more dangerous than sitting at home and surfing the Com-Pac forum. However, at the same time, I'm not saying throw caution to the wind and let the outcome of your trailering adventures rest solely on fate. "Reasonable" precautions are certainly necessary.
I suppose if you wanted to trailer your boat you could always hire a long-haul, flatbed trucker to haul it over-the-road. After all, they have massive 24" rims. Safe? Most certainly! Reasonable? Not at all!
That's not to say the 13" rims are unreasonable. I guess the line between safe and reasonable is a blurred one that we each have to determine for ourselves.
I'd evaluate the load rating of the tires vs. the load they'll be carrying. If they're within the specs and rated for highway use, go for it. If they're going to cause an anxiety attack, go with the 13's. Don't worry about how many more RPM's the little tires will do. In our over-litigious society, if anything has a manufacturer's rating or specification, you can bet damn well that it's been engineered to withstand at least 150% of whatever it's posted design limit is.
psst...and furthermore, and this is strictly my opinion, if you have a reasonable tow vehicle, you'll be fine with no brakes. Oh my God! Did I just say that?!?! That's illegal! Please don't sue me! ;) ;) ;)
--Greg
I've been doing this a long time with all kinds of trailers. Besides the half dozen boat trailers that I've owned, my other hobby is restoring old cars and I've got 2 big car haulers now as well. 10 inch wheels are OUT as far as I'm concerned unless it's local and slow speed only. Besides the small selection of available 10 inch tires (mostly lousy), you can't get decent brakes behind them. But the damn little things will rotate way too fast at highway speeds and it's an accident waiting to happen. I think 13 inch, as a compromise, is the smallest one should go. 14's are better, but would raise the trailers frame even higher. Several companies make disc brakes that will fit behind a 13 inch wheel. I've used the TieDown Engineering vented 9.6 inch kits in the past (with aluminum calipers) and they perform much better that 10 inch drums.
Those who currently have a 10 inch wheel trailer (especially tandem) - what is the bolt pattern for these wheels? I have a hunch that a 13 / 14 inch wheel has more lugs. The 13 has 5 as I recall, and I believe that the 10 may have only 4. Do the axles on the 10 inch wheel trailers have the square brake mounting plates welded on at the ends? Replacing the axles and some other major parts could get expensive. The photo below show the now much revised Venture trailer under my 2008 Telstar 28. The original drum brakes totally failed on the way up north last year. I don't blame the boat builders for doing this kind of stuff. I think it's more than just saving money - they appear to have very little knowledge of trailers. Tony Smith (my trimaran builder) is now equiping these trailers nearly right. He didn't know what he was doing wrong. I think Com-Pac may be similar.
(http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq88/CaptRon400/trailer/DSCN0136.jpg)
Ron M
Telstar 28, Horizon cat (soon)
Ron, this is a tough call. I truly think you'll be fine as delivered--for a while anyway. Agreed that drums and salt water are prone to trouble (not from experience, but rather common sense). You did mention this is tandem axle trailer. That minimizes tire wear and if there is a blowout, you'll be inconveinienced more than in danger. So bring a spare or perhaps two. Probably wise to keep your speed down on the interstate and stop every 45 min-1 hour and feel for heat and check tire pressure. Well, that works for me anyway.
Note that CP19s (2000 lbs + trailer) were delivered with single axel with no brakes on 10" rims. And I have to tell you I wish it had brakes. My tow vehicle is quite strong with powerful brakes (05 4runner V8 sport, which has HUGE brakes) does the job but panic stops just are not going to happen. Of course I drive while towing with caution and a defensive attitude to minimize getting into a situation that requires panic. Drove the boat home 800 miles with no trouble, but the tires did get warm (not hot). And it was a cool day, about 40-42 degrees. If it was a hot day, I would have stopped more frequently for cool downs (with engine running to cool the transmisson).
You'll be looking at at least $1500 for disk carriers, calipers/pads, controller (one in your truck too if you don't have it wired into the 7 pin adapter already), rims, tires and possibly new wheel wells. I would think you can get an entirely new trailer with disk brakes for a little more than this.
Another thought...perhaps consider paying a marina to hoist the boat in when you can. I know that's not always available, convenience, or quick.
Yet another thought..I used to have (can't find anymore?) a 16 oz spray bottle that you could pressurize with an air compressor to 60psi. Fill it with any liquid you want. The idea here is higher pressure than a garden sprayer or similar may work better to rinse the salt off inside the drum. Your mileage may vary.
Good luck and I'm looking forward to hearing what you've decided to do.
Ron,
My trailer has a single axle and is a Performance trailer rather than Magic Tilt. The bolt pattern on my 10" galvanized wheels is 5 on 4.5" centers. There are 13-14" wheels available with the same pattern. My single axle from Tiedown does have the brake mounting plates you mention.
I just bought three new USA Trail 20.5x8.00x10 tires for my trailer, Load Range E. Drove 1200 miles at 55 mph all on freeways, maintaining 90psi cold inflation pressure (I checked every morning before starting out) and had a blowout. I don't trust the little boogers.
If you go to 13" tires, which brand(s) do you trust? I'll be upgrading soon.
Larry
Capt. Ron, In your quest for a Horizon Cat There are two used ones for sale by Great Lakes Sailboat Co. I believe one has an electric inboard and the other is a diesel. For more info you can go to: GLSailboatCo.com. I purchased my SunCat from them and have seen both boats, you may want to check them out.
Jim
Just looked at a local CP 19 on a Performance Trailer with 10 inch wheels and brakes. Went there to look at his motor bracket, not the wheels and tires. He's using a block and pulley system attached to a standard bracket with the spring and locking pin removed. Not a bad idea. I did notice his 10 inch wheels, which do not have any spokes or otherwise to let air thru. Or fresh water when you want to wash them out.
I would not feel all that safe moving any boat at higher speeds for longer distances with these "Matchbox" wheels and "Tonka" drum brakes. Wheels did have 5 lugs and the axle had brake mounting plates, so upgrading a used trailer would only involve the wheels, tires, actuator, brakes, and fenders. Ordering a new boat and trailer would get me these things because I would get Com-Pac to order it this way. Magic Tilt and Com-Pac are both willing to do it. I'd probably be looking at 13 inch wheels as a compromise. Tall enough to lower the rotational speeds, but not that tall that I'd have to wait for 5 feet of water at the ramp. Briefly had a wing keel Catalina 250 about 3 years ago which needed close to 6 feet of water to launch. Been there, done that.
Anyone with a Magic Tilt trailer and Horizon reading this thread? Could you look at your wheels and axles and let me know what you see? I expect to see one or two boats within 3 weeks - a new Horizon with outboard and a used diesel. I'd have to order a new one to get the better trailer. If I do order a new boat, I may wind up getting a trailer from someone else. I'd really like aluminum and they won't do it.
Ron M.
I agree that all other things remaining equal, bigger tires will always be sturdier than smaller ones. However, all 10" trailer tires may not be equal... New Magic Tilt SunCat trailers come with Load Star tires 205/65-10. These are available in 4, 6, 8 and 10 Ply versions with max load capacity of 900, 1100, 1330 and 1650 lbs, respectively.
The one I've seen was marked "NYLON" and "DOT 7YBU P10" which makes me suspect that it was a Nylon 10 Ply version. If such is the case, the trailer should be good for max 3300 lbs (1650 x 2), which provides a good margin for extra weight, since boat and trailer alone would only be abt. 2000 lbs).
Load Star also has the "K550 series Nylon Bias-Ply (ST) "special trailer" tires recommended for long trips and high speeds on the highway (available in sizes 8", 10", 12", 13" and beyond), but the one I saw did not have any indication that it could have also been a K550 Bias Ply (ST). The K550 also 4 - 10 Ply but I have not been able to find any indication that they would be available in the 2005/65-10 size.
J.
Sturdy has very little to do with it. Biggest problem with a small tire is that it has to spin that much faster to keep up with the truck or car in front of it. In my case it's over 2 times faster than the tires on the Avalanche. Big tire will rotate 650 times in 1 mile, little one will do around 1400. The little tire will be doing the equivalent of 130+ while the truck is doing 60. Because of this, the tire will flex that much more (caused by moving "flat spot" on ground) heating it up, and will cause the bearing (and its lube) to heat up and wear out that much faster as well. Heat is what destroys most tires.
Putting decent brakes on the trailer is the other big problem with these tires. In my opinion the only decent brakes, especially in salt water, have a rotor and caliper. They won't fit. When was the last time you bought a new car that came with drum brakes? I'd rather have a Toyota behind me than a trailer with lousy brakes.
None of the above is important if you trailer 2 miles to a ramp at 35 miles per hour. 1,000 and 60 is a different story.
(apologies to Toyota owners, but I couldn't help adding that line above).
Ron M
Telstar 28, Horizon cat (?)
Ok, fine business, I understand the problem and gather that the only solution for you would be to increase the size of the whole wheel contraption.
Just to complement the information I provided on the 205/65-10, the Load Star installed in the SunCat Magic Tilt trailers are "Nylon" and "4-Ply" but still rated at "E" load range (i.e., 1,650 lbs).
I also sympatize with your longing for "drum" brakes, having had a double axel with 13" tires and drum surge brakes that operated without a glitch for 20 years... (granted, the boat was a full-keel Alberg seldom ramp-launched...).
J.
Not trying to change anyones opinion here but I have towed trailers with small tires all over this country and never had a blow out or bearing failure due to high temp. Tires in the 8" range at 80+ miles per hour from New Orleans to Oregon and back to New Orleans. The only recommendation is to properly inflate them to manufacture specs. I do touch the tire and bearing at each fuel stop to check for temp. These trips in were the day when you could do 85mph legally in Texas and much of the Southwest, which ever prudent drivers would not exceed speed limit by more than 5 or 10 mph. Low tire pressure is the real enemy of tires followed by overload. That said, I have driven a motorhome from Oregon to Maine and back to Oregon and blown 4 tires due to lovely toll roads around Chicago to New York. That was fun. I guess a lot depends on where you tow. Good luck on your search, better luck on your new boat. Now in a perfect world you would sail the boat home and pick up a trailer at home.
Melvin
All of this is theory. I'd rather have larger wheels with disc brakes, but if I wind up with a 3 year old Horizon I'm probably stuck with what's on the trailer for a few years. Any major rebuilding would get me to do the upgrade. Ditto for a new boat with new trailer. Don't really want to pour that much money into something that works and I'll probably hold the speed down a drop. The 6500 pound Avalanche could probably tow the 3200 pounds with no brakes. I did nearly that last year with 6500 pounds behind me (drove on the slow side just in case).
Here in Florida the 10" tires seem to have a short life due to heat build up. On my 16 I replaced the 8" rims with 12" and moved the axel from under the springs to over the springs which lowerd the trailer back to the original height. The trailer handles much better now. BILL
when i upgrade (not this year) i will follow hart's lead and go with 12" wheels. but for now those 8 inchers remain. one thing about 12s is more tire choice. along with less tire wear.
Bringing this back up.
Inspected the tires on my 19 with "Performance" trailer yesterday. Was surprised to find load rated D tires (one axle) on the 10" rims. They are Carlyle tires which are not rated that high.
D rating is not enough for this boat..the weight is right around 3,000lbs with boat, trailer, outboard, and items in the boat.
Very close to the max weight limit.
They seemed OK towing the boat home 800 miles, but they do not ride well (a lot of vibration) and they appear to have flat spots now.
Really want to upgrade to 12" tires sooner than later.
The question becomes: "Will 12" tires fit the performance trailer without raising the fenders??"
I don't see a way to move the fenders with cutting them off and rewelding them...
Well, got this covered for now with E ratings. But eventually would like bigger tires. After further inspection, the fenders could be unbolted, new holes drilled and fender raised a bit. Should be room for 12's, maybe 13's.
Has anyone put larger tires on the performance trailer??
I have had USA Trail tires and Duro tires of the 10 inch load range E variety that I also kept at 90 that had tread separation. I feel way luckier than I deserve that all three of the tires this happened with I didn't know it until I had the trailer parked in her cement slip (I rent a space in a boat/RV storage yard). Trail America has been a better brand for me, though they wear fast. They also according to the sidewall let you have a little better capacity if you blow them up to 94. I shoot for more like 92. I have gotten to where I do my best to stick to 60 on the interstate. I felt a lot like another gentleman on these pages who felt more like a trailer owner than a boat owner. Many months I am fixing my trailer as much as I am fixing my boat, and that is saying something... I'd be interested to hear what other experiences you all have had with tire brands. Currently I keep my boat on a mooring, but trailering it is my hurricane plan so I will be using the trailer again. By the way, Performance/Com-Pac gave met the trailer with load range C tires! At least they didn't question when I complained, shipping me new mounted tires immediately.
Don't know where I have been, but never heard of a trailer tire at 90 #, ...................Phil
Read the sidewall on the ten inch. I don't think it's 90 lb but closer to 80 lb for max load rating. That's why it does not matter the size of the tire, but rather the LOAD RATING of the tire at X lb. It's the construction of the tire's carcuss and combination of materials used and the manner of belting.
The boat, stuff in the boat, the trailer all weighs X. Divide that in half and again read the max load rating for each tire. The tire load rating listed on the sidewall at x lb ought to be more then half the total weight. If it is...forget about everything else.
Joey Chitwood Thrill Show pumped up his tires over 120 lb to ride on 'two on the same side' out of four on his stunt cars. Not that that has anything to do with this...
skip.
Phil & Skip -
The five (spare included) 205/65-10 Loadstars on my Magic Tilt are all marked 10 ply, E rating, 1650 pounds at max pressure, and 90 PSI maximum cold. Considering the total weight of the boat and trailer are in the 4500 pound range (with about 400 on the tongue, so 4100 on the tires) and the 4 tires can "safely" hold 6600 pounds, I tend to pump them up to around 85 psi each. I'm probably giving away about 500 pounds of GVW at that slightly lower pressure, with minimal additional flexing because of that. If I was closer to the 6600 pounds I would keep them at 90.
I agree that heat is an issue with small tires, but if you're carefull you will be OK. Keep the speed down and check the temperature occasionally. Maybe carry a grease gun on the road to lube the bearings on long trips - say every 1,000 miles or so. On the trip north (1300 miles) 2 months ago the hub temperatures never got above 130. Yes - I'd prefer 13 or 14 inch wheels, but I can make do with the 10's for now.
It would also be a very good idea to inspect the hubs and brakes once a year, and that means pulling the drums off to take a look, especially if you launch in salt water.