Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association

I plan to set up my 1984 CP19 for single handing.. not going to go for roller furling .. any photos or parts list of blocks.,pullies and cleats to do it right? I'm your basic 62 year old beginner sailor...drilling into the cabin concerns me too... Rob

Perhaps this could become a Lake Carlyle rondevous project?

   anytime you need some help let me know. and i sure hope to see you at the rendezvous

Botelerr -  Welcome to sailing.  I hope you will love it as much as I have.  I single hand at least half of the time I'm out, which is at least a couple times a week through the summer.  Did so on my Hunter 23 for many years.  I always wished I had roller furling on the Hunter as I didn't have the jib halyard led back to the cockpit.  I had to lock off the tiller and mount the cabin roof to hoist/lower the jib. I'm 58 and going forward to take care of the head sail didn't get easier over the years.  In rough water it wasn't always the safest thing to do either. Never went over the side but probably should have a couple of times... A furling unit would certainly make life a lot easier and safer for a beginner, regardless of age. You could always add furling down the road I suppose. I'd ask an experienced sailor to go out with you the first few times to show you the ropes. Like how to raise and trim your sails/how to reef or furl and lower them again... Hope that goes well for you it can be stressful on a breezy day.  Hoisting sails from the cockpit on my 16 is easy, probably will be pretty easy on your 19 as well once you get the hang of it. Be safe, enjoy.

Quote from: botelerr on January 10, 2010, 11:45:08 AM
I plan to set up my 1984 CP19 for single handing.. not going to go for roller furling .. any photos or parts list of blocks.,pullies and cleats to do it right? I'm your basic 62 year old beginner sailor...drilling into the cabin concerns me too... Rob

Perhaps this could become a Lake Carlyle rendezvous project?

   i would have to say a furling jib is a must for singlehanded sailing. pretty hard to go forward to deal with a jib when youre alone. ive done it a few times on my 16. that was enough for me or my wife so i designed and built my own furler. i think you will find lots of sailors who have made changes to lead  jib sheets back into the cockpit. the less you have to move singlehanded the safer you will be on the water.

I use a Gerr downhaul rig using Sheet blocks from a sunfish rig.  below is a link to a picture from Cap't Pauley's site on how to rig the downhaul.

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs199.snc3/20650_1258854884585_1626039269_660842_181831_s.jpg

Here's the link to his site: http://www.thevirtualboatyard.com

TG

Boteller - Having many years of sailing drastically different boats, and mostly singlehanded, I would comment that the biggest advantage of not having a jib furler is ease of changing headsails for performance reasons.  I don't feel that is an important reason for our boats and certainly doesn't outweigh the convenience factor.  I sail a 19 that I have fitted with all new sails, in part to get what I consider an ideal configuration for this design.  I replaced the jib with one created for furler application because the original was a stock hank on which was modified by the Compac dealer and thus had a few problems.  I did measure carefully to get the leech length just right so that the sheeting angle was optimized at full hoist for the fixed sheet fairleads on the coaming.  I didn't want to complicate the deck layout with car tracks and it's not that important to have sail shape adjustment in a furling jib as it can be easily de-powered by taking a few turns on the furler.  I decided that a 110 jib would be best because the bigger headsails don't furl as well (lose shape quickly) and a genoa would require the track and it would all become very complicated because of the location of the shrouds and appropriate sheet routes.  Considering that these are not close winded designs anyway, I prefer to use a spinnaker when the wind is light.  I use a small flat cut by North Direct called a G3.  It is a good offwind sail but can be used for close reaching as well.  Because of it's shape it can be poled out for dead down wind sailing.  Of course working the foredeck of a 19 is much easier in a light breeze.  Flying a spinnaker of any design is more work (but not much more than changing hank on headsails), but the payback for the effort is generous.  A furler jib with a UV cover allows permanent storage as compared with folding and storing below, so it saves a lot of headaches and storage space.  To add flexibility to my sail plan I had the new main cut as a full batten loose foot design which combined with a mid boom traveler gives me full control in any wind condition.  I can't overstate the importance of the mainsail in your sail plan, it is after all the MAIN sail.  The headsail adds some canvas real estate and makes it easy to better balance the boat but the main does most of the hard work.  It's easy to throw on a lot of sail to get blown downwind, but sailing to windward is the magic that makes sailing different than down hill skiing for example, and that magic is the the strong point of your mainsail.

So, to summarize my opinion as supported by a fair amount of experience I say the furling jib fits perfectly with a complete sail plan for the 19, and that probably applies to all of the Compac sloop rigs as well. 

Furlers aren't all that expensive any more and function quite well.  I like the CD furler because of rigging ease with it compared to an old fashioned rigid extrusion model, but mostly because of the built in halyard which eliminates the halyard wrap problem.  I got caught once in a sudden wind burst with a halyard wrap that left most of the jib unfurled.  The wind was simply too strong to trim the jib so it flogged mightily for 15 minutes or so, as I was in a very restricted area of navigation singlehanded as usual.  When I finally had an opportunity to get everything under control the sheets were so tangled in a big ball that I had to use hand tools to get it untangled, and there were marks on the sheets from the strain.

You can't really change your hull much, but there are many choices for sails and even driving a station wagon is more fun with a V8 than a four cylinder (sails luckily don't require regular fill ups at the corner gas station).  I will mention that I bought the new main and jib from Dirk at nationalsail.com .  Dirk interpreted my desires perfectly and understood exactly what I wanted the sails to be, and I am more than happy with the result.  The build quality is far superior than the original and performance has been nothing short of what I expected.  To boot, price and customer service were both exceptional.

I think it's better to be a blowboater than a ragbagger!!

Ron

Thanks for the input . I'm thinking the roller furling set up is what I need. I sail in Maine every summer on a friends 30 with furling.. I can not imagine being out without it on his rig. Sometimes river sailing here in STL is more like a drift with the current... decent sails will make it much more interesting...Rob- waiting for spring..

I'm in the same boat (literally!).    I've been pondering the same question about single handing. 

All the Com-pac trailerables are designed for single handling. Anything added is really for convenience reasons rather than necessity.

I had a 16 for 3 years and now have the 19...haven't even sailed it yet due to winter. The 16 was easy to single hand with aft mounted halyard, roller furler, aft mount furling line, and genoa tracks. Really the aft mounted lines was the big thing for ease of handling.   And it was easy to sail, dock, tack, heave to and anchor single handedly.

But on the 19--at least on mine, it already has aft mounted halyards with stand up blocks to the left of the mast on deck, a dual cheek block, a Lewmar #6 winch and cam/jam cleats all from the factory for the main and jib halyards.   You can pull the halyard from the sitting or standing position in the cockpit.  if you don't have aft led halyards, I would absolutely invest in this.

Roller Furling is really nice, I definitely suggest that like the others have mentioned.  However, keep in mind the replies thus far have been from 16 sailors.  Fact of the matter is, going up on deck on the 16 is a bit more uncomfortable than the 19.  The 16 heels more, the siderails are narrow and there is nothing to hang onto except the mast.  So do keep in mind the 19 will be easier to go forward on.   With that said, if I have time this spring I'm going to make a furler myself.  I'm not paying $500 or more for one unless a homemade unit just won't cut it.  We'll see.

if you do not go with the furler, a jib downhaul is nice to have.  Do a seach on the main home page for downhaul, you'll find lot's of ideas and pictures.  Personally I'm installing stanchion mounted furling blocks to lead the line back to the cockpit and harken Micro blocks up front (not sure where I'll attach them to yet) to change line direction from horizontal to vertical up the front stay with a small loop to attach to the hank that is second from the top position.  Then to lower the jib, just uncleat the halyard and pull on the downhaul.  Then I can pack the jib away once tied up at dock.  The same stanchion mounted blocks will be used eventually by the furler line.  So I suggest looking into these as well--sooner or later you'l want them.

My only real concern about single handling (after having done so on the 16 for 3 years)..and it's not that big of a deal is cleating off the genoa and jib sheets.  I have a winch on either coaming and a bronze open base cleat.  I want to install cam cleats-perhaps with a guide ring, one on each side,  between the winch and cleat.  That should make it easier to cleat and uncleat the line in a hurry and with minimal fuss.   But I'm not sold on the idea just yet.

The tiller to outboard steering arm idea documented in another recent topic looks pretty good too if you're mooring in a right marina or plan to do much motoring. I'll probably pass on the idea but once I start sailing it I may change my mind.  My stern rails are different than most if not all 19's (they have seats built in to them) so they may block more access to the outboard than I initially think.  We'll see.

Another item that looks useful is a tiller extension.  I picked up the 19-32" telescoping quick release version from Forespar along with coaming boxes to hold the extension (sort of a tiller tamer if you will) . It should help out to free your hands for a minute or two (perhaps longer) while you free a line or use the portipotty.

That's about all I can think of at the moment...I'm sure others with more experience with te 19 will chime in to shed some light on this topic.

Salty19 - I'm with you on the cleats - horn cleats were probably used for aesthetics but require too much time and aren't really necessary for winches.  I replaced mine with jam cleats though cam cleats with fairleads should work well for that purpose, and may prevent an accidental release of the sheet in a crowded cockpit.
As far as control lines led aft, my 19 did come configured as you described.  Although working halyards from the mast is not an unacceptable approach when using an auto pilot.  Oh, BTW I consider an auto pilot a most desirable piece of equipment for a singlehander.  I work the spinnaker halyard from the mast, but I am already up there to rig the chute anyway.  I also prefer working the main halyard from the mast when reefing, or marking the halyard at the right spot when lowering to reef, otherwise a loosed halyard means the reef cringle falls off the hook before you get a chance to get back to the cockpit to take up the slack.  Some folks are now using a reef line at the tack, or even a single reef line, but I like to roll the skirt when reefed and not have it crushed together with reef lines.  I use a hook for the clew cringle as well.  This works out well with my loose footed full batten mainsail. 
I also like a tiller extension for this boat because it is hard to see the jib telltales from the winward side unless you are sitting well forward (the mast is stepped well forward).  Those coaming locks were a nice feature for me before I could afford an auto pilot, and not in the way all the time like the Tiller Tamer.  In my really poor days I used a line from both aft cleats and with a couple of turns around the tiller - the tension was set when I cleated the line.

Somewhere on this site someone described a home made furler which apparently works well and was very inexpensive to fabricate.  Although I'm not sure if it is suitable for leaving the jib attached when not in use, or while in transport.

Ron

Single handed.

1~Build or spend some money and purchase a furler. My furler is a Harken size '00'.

2~If no furler than rig a 1/4" line to the halyard that pulls the head sail up, so when the halyard is released from the rope clutch the head sail can be pulled down onto the foredeck. The minimum for stormy weather! Keeps you in the cockpit.

3~At the bow pulpit ahead of the head sail tac 1 block for this 1/4" line will be necessary.

4~At every opportunity going back to the cockpit on the port side rig another small block to the base of every stanchion [if you have stauntions, I had to add stauntions and stern pulpit to my CP-19.] to guide this 1/4" line to a cleat that might be screwed onto the outside of the cockpit combing just a hair ahead of the winch.

5~Note even though the head sail can be doused, it will not be secured to the foredeck and can be blown over the side. Eventually you'll have to go forward in harbor or the lee of a wind block or calmer seas to either bungee cord this canvas down to the deck or un-hank it, or stuff the sail into a sail bag. When I was the spinnaker man on a racing Rhodes 19 keel in Lake Michigan we stuffed her into a small plastic garbage can. At least this keeps the skipper off the foredeck in the 'bumps'.

6~I use an adjustable length Stick 'n Socket [port and starboard] to hold my tiller and course to quickly tend to what ever needs tending to. That's very handy. And this method keeps one side of the two settees always open fore to aft.

7~Additionally this adjustable stick can be lengthened so the skipper can hunker down right behind the closed companionway hatch in an effort to stay dry when motoring into the wind. Or beating into the wind under sail.

Everything else comes factory rigged back to the cockpit.
Enjoy your boat. Keep a log.

skip.

I found the easiest solution to not needing to cleat the jib sheets is to put "Wincher self-tailers" on the jibsheet winches.  They are a rubber disc that fits over the top of the winch.  These work simply by loading up the winch drum untill the line contacts the underside of the wincher.  This creates enough friction to keep the line in place the same as tailing winch would do.  These are available at Defender and West Marine.  I use the smallest size #1 on my 23.

"I'm looking at the Harken line cleats with fairlead too.  Skip, I know you do not recommend placing line cleats aft of the horn cleat.  What do you think about putting it in between the horn cleat and winch?" Not enough room.

I have those blue add on rubber selftilers too.
Actually the smallest size is too big in dia for my winches.
Next summer I'm Gorilla Gluing them on.
That will fix that problem.
But the sta-set line slips and I end up cleating for now.

skip.

Hiya skip!  Was hoping you would add your $.02 here.  Thanks for the tips!   Ands thanks to you Bob...I guess I never heard of adding self-tailing items..thought that was integral with the winch itself.  Do you have a link I can look at?

I'm looking at the Harken line cleats with fairlead too.  Skip, I know you do not recommend placing line cleats aft of the horn cleat.  What do you think about putting it in between the horn cleat and winch?

Go to the West Marine web site and type -Wincher- in the search area.  That should bring up some info.  You can also google Barton wincher for some sites.

Found 'em, thanks!  The smallest #1 size says it's compatible with the Lewmar 7, but I've got Lewmar 6's.  Yours the same skip?

Skip has #6 size. That requires glue.


This is from my 3 ring notebook of EVERYTHING I ever bought for my boat. The only reason I bought them was West Marine had them on Clarence. OOPS! Clearance. Giggles thanx.

skip.

Iv'e never used the Winchers on my 23. Someone in her past graciously installed Andersen 12ST self tailing winches on her. I guess I've been spoiled; I wouldn't sail without 'em. It really makes singlehanding much easier. Plus the stainless steel is sooooo shiney! Not that she doesn't get enough attention already.
Bob23

Skip,

Who's Clarence?

tg

Clarence or not I need Winchers for the 19.. Rob

I think I'm going to pass on the winchers in favor of cam cleats with fairleads.  Like knowing the line is secure.

Here's a pic of the new cleats.  Put a starboard spacer underneath to give it the right height.
It's a Ronstan Extreme fairlead (allows for angled sheets) nested in bedding compound set at an angle for ease of handling from the mid and rear portion of the cockpit.

Haven't sailed it yet, but looks like the sheets will run smoothly..I hope!

(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z290/yamaholic_mcarp/Island%20Time/DSC01434.jpg)

Salty19, 

Have you posted a few pics of this beautiful boat in a topic?  I'd love to see the whole boat. 

Mike

Quote from: Greene on April 28, 2010, 08:41:55 AM
Salty19, 

Have you posted a few pics of this beautiful boat in a topic?  I'd love to see the whole boat. 

Mike

Not yet, but I can do that this evening or next!

My CP23 winches and the horn cleats work fine for me.  Self tailers would be nice, but I think I'd rather have the real thing.

Cam cleats tend to chew on line that is under a lot of stress like sheets.

Curtis

Update on the cam cleats shown above...

They seem to work fine however they are not quite tall enough to make cleating as easy as it could be.  As you can see in the pic, there is a 1/2" starboard spacer under the cam cleat--and this helps but needs a little more to keep from having to tug pointed downwards on the sheet to make the cam cleat stick.   I'll cut another 1/2" spacer and stack them together when I pull the boat for the Carlyle Lake Rendezvous in July.

Curtis, I agree with you about sheet wear on cam cleats.  Mine are new right now (New England Ropes Bzzz line 8mm) but I do keep a spare sheet onboard just in case.  I do not have a spare mainsheet however...probably should have a spare as well.   I guess I'm willing to replace them for the conveneince of the cam cleat as they do make single handling and making adjustments a little easier.  With that said, I've only had the boat out 4 times so not a lot of experience here yet on a 19.

On my 16 I had genoa tracks with (Ronstan) swiveling bullseye cam cleats on the tracks.  They worked perfectly.

Salty,

Most of the winch work is when tacking.  Backwind slightly, then release and sheet in the new working sheet fast before there is full tension on the sheet.  If you get good at it on a small boat like a CP19 or CP23, you'll rarely need a winch handle.  Sheet in a little too far during the tack and trim by easing the sheet.  If you need to trim it may only be a quarter turn or so.

I bring the sheet over to the windward horn cleat when I'm single handing when the wind is strong (including single handing with others on board).

Curtis

Thanks for the tip, Curtis!!

I've decided the jib sheet winches on a 19, when used with a 110% headsail, are not necessary. 
I imagine I'll only use them on a larger headsail if I ever do that.

The cam cleats, mounted between  the jib sheet winches and horn cleats, are working out real well.  As I mentioned I just need them a little higher off the coaming to make cleating a little easier.

Single handed about 6 times this year.  The biggest challenge is docking.

Single handed equipment when sailing:

-Homemade roller furler with cockpit mounted furling line
-Harken Extreme angle cam cleats on coaming for jib sheet
-Single line jiffy reefing system
-Aft led halyard
-Forespar TFP tiller extension
-3:1 purchase mainsail outhaul

Single handed equipment when docking/undocking
-22 ft. + Bungie line tied between stern and bow cleats on dock side. Large bronze hook on bungie to attach to dock ring.  When leaving dock, remove standard dock lines, step into boat gently, unhook the hook from the dock ring.  Gives you an extra few seconds before the boat gets too far away from the dock.
-25 foot dock lines and a means to organize them in the cockpit.

[Thanks for the info.

Quote from: skip on January 18, 2010, 08:11:33 AM
Single handed.

1~Build or spend some money and purchase a furler. My furler is a Harken size '00'.

2~If no furler than rig a 1/4" line to the halyard that pulls the head sail up, so when the halyard is released from the rope clutch the head sail can be pulled down onto the foredeck. The minimum for stormy weather! Keeps you in the cockpit.

3~At the bow pulpit ahead of the head sail tac 1 block for this 1/4" line will be necessary.

4~At every opportunity going back to the cockpit on the port side rig another small block to the base of every stanchion [if you have stauntions, I had to add stauntions and stern pulpit to my CP-19.] to guide this 1/4" line to a cleat that might be screwed onto the outside of the cockpit combing just a hair ahead of the winch.

5~Note even though the head sail can be doused, it will not be secured to the foredeck and can be blown over the side. Eventually you'll have to go forward in harbor or the lee of a wind block or calmer seas to either bungee cord this canvas down to the deck or un-hank it, or stuff the sail into a sail bag. When I was the spinnaker man on a racing Rhodes 19 keel in Lake Michigan we stuffed her into a small plastic garbage can. At least this keeps the skipper off the foredeck in the 'bumps'.

6~I use an adjustable length Stick 'n Socket [port and starboard] to hold my tiller and course to quickly tend to what ever needs tending to. That's very handy. And this method keeps one side of the two settees always open fore to aft.

7~Additionally this adjustable stick can be lengthened so the skipper can hunker down right behind the closed companionway hatch in an effort to stay dry when motoring into the wind. Or beating into the wind under sail.

Everything else comes factory rigged back to the cockpit.
Enjoy your boat. Keep a log.

skip.

Greetings, I'm a new CP19 owner as well.  I've just ordered a genoa 135 for our CDI roller from Peak sails and genoa sheets from Gerry.  Our boat has the genoa tracsk/cars and the horn cleats behind the fairlead topped cam cleats.  I'm not sure, but I think the sheets will run past the cam cleat to the horn cleat.  I agree jam cleats might be quicker and easier to use.  I've seen a youtube video where the sheet is run from one winch to the other, in 20mph+ winds so he can get the leverage in these conditions.  How does this work?

Watch out for Chris at Peak sails.  Several of us have ordered from him and orders get lost, sails come in to the wrong dimensions....

Running the sheets to both winches will not help your leverage it will only bring the line up closer to you as you will be on the windward rail and will not want to go leeward.  In this case the leeward winch is only a pivot point for the line.
Lafayette Bruce

Man, I don't like hearing this about Peak sails...I just ordered a new genoa 135 from them of my CDI...when you say they are coming with the wrong dimensions, are these orders which the purchaser has provided specific dimensions, or as Peak representatives explained to me, they have the correct dimensions for all the ComPac sails and have sold an inordinary number of them over the past couple of years.  I'm sure glad I haven't discarded my old jib!  But I'd like to know if this is a recurring problem, or one of out many that weren't right?????Please be more specific; did this happen to you?  What exactly was wrong and, most importantly, did Peak correct the problem without any hassle????Early thanks, Johh

I purchased a headsail for a Capri 14.2 and Peak claimed to know what all the dimensions were.  When the sail came in it was about a foot too long.  Chris avoided my calls and when I did finally get a hold of him he made all sorts of arguments about how it was right because that is what the work order said.  I pointed out to him that I sent him pictures of the dimensions (held a tape measure up to the old sail to show where the dimensions started and stopped).  He did go back and make the sail again but my boat was 2 months late in hitting the water.  The sail works but I still think the leach and foot are wrong because it is the smallest jib of all the Capri 14.2's in my club.
Others here on the forum have had problems with Peak as well.
Lafayette Bruce

It sounds like I may have been "taken" in too?  However, I spoke with Gerry Hutchins and he recommended going with Peak as he didn't have a source for fitting the CDI with a new head sail without charging me a considerable fee.  I am paying $492 for my 135 genoa from Peak.  I don't remember who I spoke with, but we talked for some time about my sail; I felt satisfied.  Obviously I'll know when the sail arrives, which should be next week?  They advertise delivery NLT five weeks; next week is the fifth week since my order.  I certainly hope I don' have an issue!  Dropping my mast is not easy for me with the boat in the water.  It's possible to change out the head sail using a CDI roller with the mast up, but I want to reinstall the wind vane I forgot when the mast was raised after I had the bottom and hull done.  I also need to replace the steaming light.  I'm waiting for everything to arrive to complete all this work at one time with the mast down.  Fortunately I have some help.  I know many CP19 owners have little trouble raising/lowering the mast in or out of the water; I'm 67 and have some back issues which prevents me from performing this task alone.  I have a gin pole which I could use in combination with the jib winch; again, with the boat in the water there is a distinct possibility of loosing control holding the mast in position coming down/going up.  I know some use short shrouds to assist keeping the mast from "wandering", but I'll wait for some help to be safe and avoid hurting my back.  I'll post whatever information concerning the Peak sail.  Thanks for your comments...John

The PO of our 19 installed swivel fairlead cam cleats between the winches and horn cleats.  Possibly non-swiveling cam cleats would be good, but these swivels' aren't working for me very well.  I'm replacing the jib with a 135 genoa which means I'll be using the genoa blocks/cars and winches all the time.  I think the original setup up was intended to use the horn cleats; there is ample room between the winches and horn cleats to manage the sheets.  But with the cam cleats we have, they're right in line with the horn cleats.  I'm going to remove them and simply us the horn cleats.  If that doesn't work well, possibly replacing them with large fairlead jam cleats?
With this said, the swivel cam cleats worked fine in light airs, but when we sailed in much livelier conditions, I was concerned about them failing; this was with the stock jib.  I realize the convenience of cam cleats with fairleads, but I just don't think they're ideal for this boat as it's currently setup.  But my experience level with this boat is limited; we've only been out three times in varying conditions.  Our last sail was in 15-20mph winds and 3 foot seas.  The boat sails well, but I wasn't happy with the sheeting the PO setup...I can fix it.
If I'm missing something here, please correct me....John