Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association

After years of feeling as though Miss B ('86 Mark I) just didn't have enough motoring power when going "to weather" or trying to fight Intercostal opposing currents under a bridge span I have decided to replace the 11hp Universal and put a bit more power in her britches.

My first thought is to replace it with the 18 hp Westerbake that the newer 27's have and would love to hear from owners that have them about likes/dislikes. This seems like the "smartest" refit as I would at least know it can be done.

Would also love to hear from anyone that has made this change-out? Did you change out the transmission as well?

Also a poll.... If you could refit with any engine in the 18 - 22 hp range which would it be?

Any and all comments, words of advice, opinions, and recommendations are appreciated.

Capt'n Jim
(//)

Interesting subject. Did you consider the Beta Marine engines? I'd also speak with Gerry Hutchins; the guys at the factory must know why they selected the Westerbeke and what else may work. I remember hearing some rumour that the Westerbeke proved less reliable than the old Universal.

I know that Compac has put a Yanmar in at least one 27 (we looked at this craft a year or so ago only to have it sold before we could make up our minds)
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_full_detail.jsp?slim=broker&boat_id=2125152&ybw=&hosturl=tredavon&&ywo=tredavon&&units=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=1862&url=&hosturl=tredavon&&ywo=tredavon&

doug

Thanks guys for the input... The Yanmar and Westerbeke are both considerations and am trying to assemble a file of information on both so to make a somewhat informed decision.  Skip, the flier was nice but I cannot make out to see if it mentions hp or brand if aux power that is being put in the new models.  Haven't talked to the Hutchins people, have been looking for an excuse to get up to Clearwater area and stop by and visit again but may have to resort to e-mail or phone.

Again, thanks for the input and as soon as it warms up a little (got down to 42 F last night!) I'll get out back and do some preliminary work to remove the Universal that is there.

Will keep up-dated on the progress.
Jim

I look forward to hearing how things develop. By the way, you're lucky - it was 26 F when I left for work this morning ...

After doing some limited research and talking with the guys at Compac, I will be looking for a "deal" on the Westerbeke 20B as the refit engine and transmission at the Miami boat show in Feb.  (Is anyone from this area planning on going?)

Now to find someone to help with the installation.......

jimyoung, "Skip, the flier was nice but I cannot make out to see if it mentions hp or brand if aux power that is being put in the new models."

The literature below says "two cylinder fresh water cooled diesel" [not for salt water?]
So that leaves it open to what ever Com-Pac could get their hands on and for the best price.
And "she turns in her own length". So does my C-P 19 with a turn on the outboard.

Question: I'm not sure why you need a new engine? Just asking because the only difference between a new engine and one in need of rebuild or replacement is about 1-1/2 once of metal in the oil pan.  If no rods are sticking outside of the block it ought to be rebuildable. Can't have a lot of time on it. I mean not like 200,000 miles on the clock. Just a car guy prospective. If your in salt could be rotted away inside the cooling jackets. You might want to consider a water cooled muffler and running a close loop cooling system. Dad had that on his fresh water boats even.

skip.

Quote from: jimyoung on December 30, 2009, 08:38:17 AM

Also a poll.... If you could refit with any engine in the 18 - 22 hp range which would it be?

Capt'n Jim
(//)

A brand new universal medalist atomic four. :)  Only this time around with electronic fuel injection and ignition.  Smoother, quieter, less smelly, and easier to work on,  (at least for me).

Actually, I think they were thirty horsepower, but with less weight per hp produced.

I had one for 16 years.  Liked it better than any diesel I've been around.  Too bad liability issues and international fuel availability killed them off for marine use (or so I've been told those are the reasons).

Skip,
Both the old and the new engines are "closed circuit" fresh water cooled, using only "raw" water through the heat exchanger only with it's dedicated raw water water pump.

Also you are correct, in the 21+ years of owning Miss B I have only put a total of 800 hrs on the little engine, and plan on attaching a "genset" to it and having a diesel powered hurricane emergency power supply (no-one here has gasoline then, everyone has a boat at the dock with diesel on board). The main problem is 11hp is just not enough push when facing a nose blow or a current under a raised bridge of more than 4 knots (common on the big ditch where I live).  I once spent 18 minutes getting through the bridge at Lighthouse Point Inlet against an opposing current. Once committed I couldn't turn around so I just spent the time smiling and waving to the bridge tender while he flashed me some VERY bad looks.  Probably why Compac put the larger engine in later year models of the same boat.

Thanks for the reply, and I had a CP19 before Miss B.  A great boat.

Jim

Brackish,

I am not familiar with the engine that you suggested but with "electronic ignition" this tells me that it is a gasoline engine? I really need to stay with a diesel power plant.  i did look at the newer Universal engines and have not ruled them out, but in my limited research the common repair parts seem to be difficult to obtain and very expensive (not that the westerbeke or yanmar aren't, just more competition with those two models around here and so you can occasionally find a deal or two)

Jim

You missed the smile, Jim.  You can't get a new atomic four.  It was the predominant auxiliary power plant for sail boats up until about 1978.  Many thousands in use back then, but because some folks could not seem to remember the sequence, turn the blower on first, then turn the ignition on, fell out of favor.

It was (is) a great engine.  Many still in use today.  The one I had for 16 years is now actually 33 years old and still going strong. Since the motor was also used for welding machines, small fork trucks, generators, and pumps in the industrial environment, parts were available at any industrial parts supplier for a lot less than a marine supplier.

A fellow named Moyer in Pennsylvania keeps the last of them alive by gathering up and rebuilding blocks, heads and other parts.

Guess you went right over my head with that one.....  My sailing experience before moving to Florida in '85 was on Texas lakes and neither the 19 Compac or any of the Hobie Cats we raced ever had any form of aux power. Common feeling between Cat sailors was "if you couldn't get there and back under sail.....stick your arms in the water and paddle" and the only engines that were not outboards, in my universe were small block Chevy's or V twin Harleys.  Missed out altogether on the atomic fours.... Did have a friend that had an old Indian that had an in-line four that he referred to as an "Atomic Four" though I am sure that's not the same :)

As an up-date I have decided to go with the Yanmar 3YM20 as the refit engine of choice.  I had pretty much made up my mind on the Universal M3-20B when I entered the Miami boat show, but the seemingly un-intrest by the Westerbeke people at the booth and the $1500 boat show price difference the Yanmar won out.  It was also intresting just how many of the new sailboats that I looked at had the Yanmar powerplants in them.

Also looked at the Beta Marine engines..... Actually quite impressive, built on the same Kaubota (sp?) tractor engine as the Universal, and they had some good selling points about their product, but too were a little proud of their engines, about the same as Westerbeke, and had no stocking dealers in the area...... handling warranty claims through a "self warranty" program.

Only down side to the Yanmar is that I have to wait for one to be built, all in stock and currently on the production line are taken (seems sailboat construction is picking up and they got caught "short" on the 20hp.

Will have more when it is delivered.

Jim,

I think you will be happy with the Yanmar. We have the 2YM15 on our Seaward 26rk and have never felt underpowered. The Yanmar seems to be the most common power plant on sailboats today. I'm hoping to get a chance get it rebuilt in 250,000 hours or so -- lets see if you sail 5 hours for every hour of motoring... we had best get spring soon so we can get sailing..cus I don't know how many years 1,000,000 sailing hours reprsent and we are not getting any younger.

doug

Just found out that my engine will be here in 3 weeks and I haven't even started with pulling out the old one! I am assuming that I will need to pull and change the prop as well.  What is on her is the original (have no idea the pitch or diameter), it's done it's job for over 20 years and I've no complaints but with the extra horsepower it may not be aggressive to keep the engine from over-reving (is that a word?)

You guys with the newer 27's what prop are you running? Any of you have any experience with the folding props? I do very little racing anymore unless I happen to find myself along side another gunk-holer heading the same direction :) so I am not leaning in that direction, seems like just more maintenance, but what are your opinions?

P.S. I will post photos of the swap-out if I can figure out how, I found some good indtructions posted here somewhere and will revisit and attempt.

I'd give the guys at Campbell Sailer at call. Tell them what you have and what you are doing. They will recommend a prop. I bought my three blade from them, good price and quick turn around.
http://www.westbynorth.com/CampbellSailer.aspx (http://www.westbynorth.com/CampbellSailer.aspx)

While you've got the boat torn apart might as well put in a new cutlass bearing.

Thanks for the link to Campbell Sailer, I will check them out. Good advice too on the cutlass bearing, I did however replace it about five years ago when I had to replace the prop shaft due to some electrolysis problems ..... since then I have been much more diligent on the zinc as well.  Has yours always had a 3 blade prop? Mine has always been a 2 blade and I have left it on thinking it has less resistance in the water (not that that accounts for much when your pulling a dingy)

The boat had the original two blade, I switched to the CS three blade with less pitch hoping to get more rpm out of the diesel. Up here at 9,000 feet the little universal will not spin a prop designed for sea level. I really don't think you will ever notice the difference between a three and two blade while sailing.

One more thing, the shaft of the three blade is longer. That meant I had to find thinner zincs. I might look into prop nut zincs next.

The new Yanmar arrives today!!!! Miss B. is ready and hopefully it will be setting in place before sunset.(http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac70/jimyoung29/MissB/DSC01980copy.jpg?t=1270655716)  Say "Ahh!"

Hey, good luck with that.  Looks like you've got it all cleaned up and ready to go.

Well, after a few minor setbacks Miss B. has a new Iron Genny!(http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac70/jimyoung29/MissB/DSC01982copy.jpg?t=1270862352)  Now just a lot of rewiring and plumbing before I can actually hear it running.

Nice job. Luv's ya boat maybe?
skip.

OOOOOOO! Pretty! Ya gotta do something about that sailors porn before they lock us up.  LOL

Nice job. How did everything line up? Did you need to do much work to align the engine with the shaft? Did it all bolt up without any modifications, same number and size of fasteners? Did the engine come with a panel or is that an extra?
keep the photos coming, maybe from the other end also.

Well, I am about 80% complete and hope to "light the fire and kick the tires" so to speak this weekend!
I had to rebuild the electrical box (it extended too far aft and into the new motor as is) so went ahead and built a complete new companion way as the old one was too weathered to keep.  The breakers are recessed about half of what they were but looks like everything will work out fine.

(http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac70/jimyoung29/MissB/DSC01984.jpg?t=1272472289)

Still more carpentry work to do and still have to enlarge my exhaust flange thru the transom but am close to completion.  The new engine fits, but the stringers were "just' long enough!

(http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac70/jimyoung29/MissB/DSC01986.jpg?t=1272472789)

More as progress ensues.

Very nice work.

What is the pump and strainer by the battery?

I live in south Florida..... That is the A/C for when I am tied up to a marina in the Keys in August.  When I manage to stagger from the Tiki Bar to Miss B. she provides a cool comfortable "Haven" to recover from the ensuing hang over.  The FIRST piece of equipment that gets hooked up when crawling around the bilges on a sunny day.  Hey, it's in the 80's here already.

Fired it up today!  Started on the first touch of the key.  Music to my ears......... until I put it into gear.  Seems Bill was right in suggesting that I replace the cutlass bearing because it is making a noise.  Dove in and sure enough there is about 1/16" movement when I pushed up and down on the prop.  So it looks like I will be pulling Miss B. and changing the cutlass bearing, and probably the prop.  Hope I don't find anything else while she is on the hard.


No one happens to know the cutless bearing O.D. or length by chance?  I would like to keep her stay at the yard as short as possible, so I am trying to have everything lined up and ready when she comes out of the water.

Please let me know how replacing this cutlass bearing install works out for you. I was told by the previous owner of Allure that he had the marina crew replace it and I swear they did not put a nut and washer on the lower bolt. The retainer plate for the cutlass bearing has always had a slow leak that is more of a nuisance than a problem. Last year I called ComPac and they said to use a few long 3/8' extensions and a socket to reach the nut on the inside to tighten it. I tried for hours to get a deep socket on it. Also tried the socket size above and below my best guess as to the size. Tried having someone turn the bolt head will I tried to engage it with the socket...no luck. The bolt just turns and turns but never tightens up. I really think they just stuck the bolt in there with just a glob of sealant. I am about to buy a small wireless inspection camera from Harbor Freight Tools (on sale right now) and look for myself. I hope that the people at Hutchins did not embed a nut plate into the the fiberglass itself because that creates another problem that at this time I don't want to tackle. I'm getting ready for launch and I have more important projects to tackle (windless installation). I would love to see what is in that retainer plate once you take it off, (must be a bearing or bushing and perhaps a seal of some type. One fix I was thinking of is to grind the head off the bolt push it back into the trough retrieve it (I hope) from the inside. I would then replace the bolt and put a flat washer, lock washer and nut on the inside. Perhaps if I also could not get the nut caught myself I would then reverse the bolt and put the nut and washers on the outside. Really curious to find out what is ahead of me.

Sounds like they used a carriage bolt (rounded head), stupid is as stupid does, if you get enough pressure on head , may be able to turn nut off or drill head and use a extracter................good luck...........Phil

Thank you but definitely NOT a carriage bolt. Just suspect they (the previous marina) never put the nut on the inside to tighten up the retainer plate. I can easily see the nut and washer on the upper bolt but the lower is out of sight. I intend on buying that "snoop camera" to look down there.

There should be a matching lower nut and lock washer.  I remember being able to get to the nut using about 2-1/2' of extension the last time I had it off.  Now if it only comes apart as easily this time.  Good luck with yours and let us know how it goes.  I dropped the rudder last time, but not sure if it was necessary, may try to get it all apart and back in without removing it this time. Any definitive experience out there on this?

I will post some pictures once it is apart.

Well, I just ordered a new Campbell Sailor prop from Norm Ross of West by North Enterprises, really good guys to deal with and we'll see if it was a good decision when it gets here.  I will have to run the old two blade until it gets here so I will have something to compair it to.  Now to scout for a place with clear water deep enough to float, but shallow enough to pick up parts when I drop them while changing out the prop in the water since it won't be here while I am replacing the cutlass bearing.

Regarding the Campbell Sailor prop. The body of the prop is longer than the two blade. When I switched mine out the original sized zincs would not fit. I had to search for a thinner zinc. Found a metric size designed for a beneteau. I think it was the 25mm found here (http://www.boatzincs.com/beneteau-collar.html). Maybe my shaft was shorter to begin with, maybe.

Thanks for the heads-up!  I will have her out of the water on Wednesday and let you know what I find out.

What pitch did you get?

Ended up with a 12" dia  x 10" Pitch

Quote from: jimyoung on May 06, 2010, 02:52:25 PM
There should be a matching lower nut and lock washer.  I remember being able to get to the nut using about 2-1/2' of extension the last time I had it off.  Now if it only comes apart as easily this time.  Good luck with yours and let us know how it goes.  I dropped the rudder last time, but not sure if it was necessary, may try to get it all apart and back in without removing it this time. Any definitive experience out there on this?

I will post some pictures once it is apart.

[Shaft tube leak ordeal over]
Looked down there under the shaft tube with a camera I had purchased and found a pile of junk that had collected at the back lowest point of the shaft tube trough. Cleaned most of it out with a coat hanger and then blew the rest of it out with an air gun. I could see with the new camera that there was a nut was on the bolt but still could not get a socket on it. The best combination is a 1/4 drive extra long extension and a 1/4 drive, 6 point, 1/2" deep socket. The bolt is actually a 5/16" X 1-1/2 long SS hex head bolt. The quarter inch extension and socket are easier to move around down there. Even then I could not get the socket onto the bolt and nut. I ended up grinding off the head of the old bolt and then knocking it thru into the trough. Fished it out with the coat hanger and then the fun began. Decided to super glue the washer onto the face of the new nut and put it into the socket with a small piece of electrical tape on two of the flats to keep it in the socket. Then I slide it down the through with a coat hanger looped under the 1/4 inch drive extension which allowed me to pick up on the 1/4 inch extension to help position it. On the outside I had someone looking for the nut thru the hole. Once he was able to see it I had him center it to the hole with a phillips screw driver. Once centered I pushed back on the extension to hold the nut in place. The person on the outside then was able to get the bolt start into the nut. I held it on the inside with a ratchet and he tightend the bolt from the outside. Also loaded the bolt up with 4500 before sliding it into the hole and catching the nut. Top was easy, you can actually put the nut on the threads of the bolt with your fingers. Not a very nice job but I did finally get it done......going in on Friday.

Ended up with a 12" dia  x 10" Pitch

So what is the pitch of a paddle wheel boat?
Just asking.

skip.

Update on the Prop..... Once out of the water I discovered that I had more clearance than I thought and changed the prop to a 14" dia x 8" pitch.

Update on the Cutless Bearing bolts.....  Removed the entire mess yesterday, pressed in a new bearing and reinstalled today.  The bottom bolt was either eaten thru from electrolysis or broke as soon as I put torque on it so I had no trouble getting it out, and after cleaning it all up, drying the well out and a fresh coat of bilge paint it went back together easier than I thought.  Loaded the nut into the socket similar to "Allure" but was able to find the bolt and held the ratchet to the tube with tape, using the hull floor as a stop was able to tighten from outside.  Same process for the top.

And oh yea.....  I think paddle wheel props are measured in length and width :)

How much shaft do you have sticking out? You must have lots more then I do being able to use that big of a prop.

Quote from: bmiller on May 20, 2010, 08:04:31 PM
How much shaft do you have sticking out?

Let's not get personal :) but I will take the camera with me today and grab some shots of my extended shaft.  

Also when dropping the rudder I noticed that the stop post was a little tilted....  turned out that I had a little dry rot in the wood in that area so I am having to keep her on the hard for another day and do some reinforcing in that area, hopeful for a Saturday launch.