Well it's happened again. Boaters have been learning for some time the risks and limitations of these handy GPS gadgets. It seems now land cruisers are being exposed to the dangers of unquestioning faith in following the little electronic arrows on their dash.
A couple were traveling from Portland, Oregon to Nevada after the holidays. Following their GPS, apparently set to navigate the shortest route, they ended up stuck in deep snow on a remote forest service road here in Southern Oregon. And there they sat for three days before getting a cell phone signal and calling for help. Fortunately, they were rescued none the worse for the experience. Lucky them. Last year, not far from here a San Francisco family had a far different outcome. They ended up in the same situation for the same reason. That time, one life was lost in the winter conditions.
GPS's can be useful and even fun if you're a gadget kind of person. But they can get you in serious trouble if not treated with a modicum of skepticism. Learn how to use 'em. Learn about their weaknesses. Tell your friends and loved ones too. You see, electronics do what you set them to do pretty well. But that's not always what you _want_ them to do.
mel
The main problem with land-bound GPS, is that it doesn't teach people how to think. I don't have one; ain't gonna get one either. I prefer using a paper map to design my route from point A to point B. And, ladies, you aren't going to believe this- I do stop and ask for directions when I'm lost, something my family says I do instictively. I meet some interesting folks this way.
I do see the value in a GPS unit for some folks but I graduated (just barely) from the old school. Give me land dead reckoning any day. But I do like my GPS on my 23. It's a nice toy but even on the water, it's good to develope a sense of direction and not rely on technology too heavily. Just my opinion...can't help it that I'm right!\
Bob23..still learning how to think.
Any body who relies solely on a stupid GPS to guide them on a journey with basically zero knowledge of where they are going ought to perish. Period. This takes 'dead reckoning' to a new high. GPS is just an aid.
The GPS is no better than the data input. In this case, the data was flawed and the recipients of the data were stupid.
skip.
Yep- Navigation Aid- just like on the water. Nothing can replace common sense. Bob : I don't have a GPS for my CP yet. Love the running fixes and using the binoculars too much I guess.
I have a GPS in one of my cars...and do not trust it! It has directed me to take dirt roads before. Dirt roads that stretch over a county, not just quick connector roads. That was the shortest way home. I have a handheld which I use for basically as a novelty/toy. Will do some geocaching On the boat, I do not need navigation in the little puddle I sail in, but nice to see the speed over land and other metrics.
I view any piece of electronics on a small boat (that is not designed for 99.99 electrical reliability) as something that you should not rely upon to save your life.
I'm with Bob...I use paper maps. The Delorme streets atlas is a great tool while traveling, especially off the beaten path.
The GPS really just confirms I'm not lost.
Just a tool and, like any other tool subject, to limitations with a requirement for common sense and sound judgement of the operator. I don't have one, but borrow my wife's on occasion. I like it great for navigating a strange city. In Panama City last summer I wanted to visit five marine supply houses, so punched in the five addresses and it took me to their front doors. However, I have had it show me in the middle of a cow pasture when driving on a brand new four lane highway. Old software.
As far as marine goes, when I think back to the improvement current GPS has over RDF and then Loran C, it's hard to deny that the tool has come a long way. But still, common sense and a back up system is necessary.
Hear, Hear! My first experience with car GPS was in England quite some time ago. It (she?) had a wonderfully sexy British girls voice. Always wondered what she looked like. But she did direct us down some dead ends. I think that to make them interesting, they could clone voices that are familiar to us. I'd put in Emma Peels voice (from the old British spy series " The Avengers") She could lead me anywhere she wanted to.
The GPS in my CP23 was a gift. My friend replaced his old black and white Garmin with a color chartplotter and gave me the old one. It's a nice toy. Neat to compare your compass heading with GPS heading. Helps you calculate drift. Or is it set- I get them confused.
My buddy is a powerboater/fisherman and he left his waypoints in. Now I can get to all his secret fishin' spots! Mwhaaa...soon the whole world will be mine!
Bob23...loosin' it!
I think GPS and chartplotters are great toys. I first learned using them in planes and now I got to play with my marine one. However, they are navigation aids, not replacement brains. One still has to be able where one is and where one is going.
That brings me to the second point: aren't they just helping to extend natural selection? When stupid people get stuck in the forest because their GPS told them so, and wolves eat them, isn't that just part of evolution?
Uh, Bob23 yer tellin your age - Emma Peel. Yeah she was a fox.
Good point, Nic:
Keeps 'em out of the gene pool. I never thought that GPS could lead to the advancement of the race. Like I've said before, it's amazin' what I learn here at the site!
Bob23
"I'd put in Emma Peels voice (from the old British spy series " The Avengers") She could lead me anywhere she wanted to."
"Uh, Bob23 yer tellin your age - Emma Peel. Yeah she was a fox."
At the series time [and probabily still is] "Ms. Peel" was a smoker, giving that raspy voice so many find enjoyable.
SMOKING IS FOR SUCKERS
I'd like a bumper snicker that reads that.
skip.
Hi All,
I love my GPS, but don't use it to the exclusion of my brain.
And Bob... I loved The Avengers... I always wanted Mrs. Peel's wardrobe... of course I was but a mere child watching reruns ... LOL
Sherie
bought a little gps for white bass fishing. i know where those submerged islands are but it does make it a bit quicker to find particular spots. i take it sailing just to play with but i would never have one in a car. paper maps for me. everytime i see someone driving at night wish that nav screen lit up all i can think of is "yet another distraction to deal with. hell if i see a dvd player in the back of a van i find myself trying to see what they are watching as i pass them. i once passed an suv that had a porn movie on. now that was a distraction.
Oh that's another thing. Those "submerged islands". Tie the GPS into the auto pilot and she just might run over a few islands.
GPS is only as smart as the skipper sets it.
skip. I used my chartplotter to reveal a bearing to Green Island on a foggy day. In about 40 seconds to fine the compuss course and the 'miles to', [a little to starboard and 6.72 kn as I recall] and off went the chartplotter.
I always thought that guy in the top hat had it way too good....But a smoker? Ok that ruined it for me. I guess I will go listen to my wife- she has a nice voice as long as its not raised in exasperation in something I did.
Ok, question time......I do have detailed maps (charts?) of the Lakes I run, even some maps of the Cumberland river around where I do my fishing, but would like an inexpensive GPS. Any suggestions on brand, and round about price?
I bought a Garmin eTrex Venture Cx on eBay last summer along with a Mapsource CD. It is a nice easy to use color unit with a memory card slot. With Mapsource I can load maps from all over the country. It has on or off road capabilities so I can use it in the car or on the boat. I've used it in rental vehicles in Tucson as well as on the water in Minnesota. I like it a lot. I paid around $130.
Quote from: rwdsr on December 30, 2009, 06:02:24 PM
Ok, question time......I do have detailed maps (charts?) of the Lakes I run, even some maps of the Cumberland river around where I do my fishing, but would like an inexpensive GPS. Any suggestions on brand, and round about price?
The Rest of the Story.
The elderly couple who drove their SUV into the snow and were stuck on a remote Forest Service road because their GPS led them there, were otherwise well prepared for winter travel. They carried with them plenty of food, warm clothing and two cell phones. Ironically, their rescue was expedited due to... GPS. The 911 operation was able to obtain a fix on them because of the GPS built into one of their cell phones!
Coincidentally, further north (at about the same time) another couple suffered the same fate following their GPS. A family member, realizing they were missing, used an identical GPS, entered their start and destination points, set it for "shortest route" and followed it right to them.
Initially, my reaction to these stories was much the same as many of you. I'd stop short of suggesting anyone deserves to die for making a stupid mistake. If that were the case, my personal history would, no doubt, have been cut short in my youth. Their trust in electronic infallibility is really no different then a boater neglecting to match the datum of their GPS and charts and then following it onto the rocks. Most here seem to know to verify the results of their navigation. That's good. But here's another example. In college, during final exams, a fellow in my class who knew the material better then anyone else didn't question the answers his calculator was giving him. Turns out his battery was low causing funky results. Oops. Smart guy but he failed. At work we call 'em cockpit errors. Watch out for them too.
mel
Going back to GPS... For coastal cruising in small bodies of inland waters (my prevailing kind of sailing) I only found one use for the GPS: returning to port in the night I always feared hitting the dozen or so unlit race markers positioned in a 2-3 mile radius circle around the lake. So, one morning I visited them all and logged their positions in the GPS. From then on I could sail to port in the night while keeping a watchfull eye on them in the screen of the GPS. The Garmin also came handy on the night of the big NorthEast Blackout in the Summer of 2003 even if that night we never did actually sail in the dark as later that evening there was a big glow to the East and the Full Moon slowly raised behind the unlit landscape skyline... quite an unforgettable sight!
J.
We sailed on Lake Millacs last summer with Nate D. Millacs is a very large lake and all points on the shore pretty much look the same once you are two or three miles out. Setting a way point for the marina was very useful. Also somewhat instructive... as that is when I learned that there are on and off road settings for the hand held GPS. The Millacs trip was the first time I used it. That was pretty interesting. I failed to select off road the first time out. The GPS then chose to direct us to the closest road on the shore, expecting us to get on the road and drive back to the marina. Fortunately the road selected was only a quarter of a mile from the marina and once we were close enough to the shore Nate could tell where we were. I have also used it many times since in off road mode and it works very well for keeping track of ramps and marinas. It was also fun to see how fast we were moving.
On road trips it lets us know what services are located at upcoming exits, local attractions, locations of transportation terminals, shopping, etc. Overall, I think it was well worth the money. The key is the MapSource CD though. The base map loaded on the system wasn't nearly detailed enough. It wouldn't be nearly as useful without the ability to load maps of cities and regions on to the hand held unit.
Quote from: Joseph on December 31, 2009, 09:56:47 AM
Going back to GPS... For coastal cruising in small bodies of inland waters (my prevailing kind of sailing) I only found one use for the GPS: returning to port in the night I always feared hitting the dozen or so unlit race markers positioned in a 2-3 mile radius circle around the lake. So, one morning I visited them all and logged their positions in the GPS. From then on I could sail to port in the night while keeping a watchfull eye on them in the screen of the GPS. The Garmin also came handy on the night of the big NorthEast Blackout in the Summer of 2003 even if that night we never did actually sail in the dark as later that evening there was a big glow to the East and the Full Moon slowly raised behind the unlit landscape skyline... quite an unforgettable sight!
J.
I have a Garmin chart plotter on my boat - came with the package. Don't have one in my vehicle because I haven't found it that difficult to follow the roadway and road signs. Actually I think a conspicuously dash mounted GPS makes the driver appear at the same level of competence as one of those McDonald workers that can't count change.
I feel that GPS is another technological layer to the aids we have available for successful navigation. Used in conjunction with other aides it can be useful and in some circumstances more expedient than manual plotting. However, I do question the wisdom of permitting any device to make decisions on my behalf that involve life and limb. If I make a grave mistake that puts my life at risk, I'd rather it be my own decision so I'll know who to be mad at.
Ron
Quote from: Potcake boy on January 04, 2010, 01:50:28 AM
I have a Garmin chart plotter on my boat - came with the package. Don't have one in my vehicle because I haven't found it that difficult to follow the roadway and road signs. Actually I think a conspicuously dash mounted GPS makes the driver appear at the same level of competence as one of those McDonald workers that can't count change.
So Ron, you're in a strange city and have to make a dozen or so stops to addresses you've never been to. You think street signs and paper maps are a superior way to do that? Wow!
As one who worked at McDonalds for several years (before the computerized cash registers), and later ran a very for large manufacturing organization, I would be more suspect of the competence of someone who could not recognize the advantage of appropriate new technology to increase efficiency.
I have to go with Brackish on this one... I don't know the roads in Tucson, I live in Minneapols... I don't even know all of the roads in Minneapolis to be honest with you. I found the GPS to be much safer to use than taking my eyes off traffic for long enough to try and update my location on a map, and the map doesn't beep at me when turns are coming up... The GPS made it simple and safe to get from the airport to my son's home on the other side of Tucson, and back again, with no wrong turns and both hands on the wheel.
Quote from: brackish on January 04, 2010, 08:02:46 AM
Quote from: Potcake boy on January 04, 2010, 01:50:28 AM
I have a Garmin chart plotter on my boat - came with the package. Don't have one in my vehicle because I haven't found it that difficult to follow the roadway and road signs. Actually I think a conspicuously dash mounted GPS makes the driver appear at the same level of competence as one of those McDonald workers that can't count change.
So Ron, you're in a strange city and have to make a dozen or so stops to addresses you've never been to. You think street signs and paper maps are a superior way to do that? Wow!
As one who worked at McDonalds for several years (before the computerized cash registers), and later ran a very for large manufacturing organization, I would be more suspect of the competence of someone who could not recognize the advantage of appropriate new technology to increase efficiency.
You know, it strikes me as really strange how dependant people feel they are on these gadgets. I spent 20 years in outside sales work, and never had a problem finding my way around. I do like Mapquest but it's just a replacement for conventional maps. I followed the flock and had a cell phone for a few years but at seeing how expensive it was getting I dropped that service. Haven't had any withdrawal from that. Why didn't I have any emergencies that required a cell phone to call for help? Oh I so wanted to call for help like those On-star commercials.
I think a lot of folks just convince themselves they need these things to be in step with the times.
I don't think there is a right or wrong here, but I like to see the preservation of self reliance and the simplicity of life. I just don't see the value of immersing myself in these tidbits of technology when I already have the capability to lead a normal and fulfilling life without them. But that's just me, never watched much TV as a kid, was usually outside being fascinated by nature.
So to all you self proclaimed geeks out there, when your batteries run down you are welcome to follow me home. The Vendee Challange sailors all use GPS, weather services and other high tech aides to sail a better race, but I'll bet all of them can find their way by sextant. Too bad we have lost the navigators that had the skill to find their way by natural things that us modern sailors don't even notice.
Glitzy gadgets are fun and amusing, but not as necessary as many claim them to be - just don't forget how to count change when you are paying for these things.
Not embarrassed by low tech:
Ron
You know Ron, I don't care that our politics are completely different. In this issue we see eye to eye. I can't wait to retire to a job as shipwright- so I can throw my %$##$% phone were it won't bother me ever again. And I will live for weeks at a time without touching one thing electrical. And if you see me diving off Panther Key, it won't be because my GPS tells me this is a good place to fish! With just a grandson or two for crew we will be making memories that will be there long after I'm gone.
So what would the cellular network say about coverage if we all did that?
Quote from: Potcake boy on January 04, 2010, 09:33:27 PM
You know, it strikes me as really strange how dependant people feel they are on these gadgets.
What strikes me as strange are individuals who confuse dependency with convenience or efficiency. As a manufacturer I made parts just fine with conventional machinery. But over time as technology changed I could make them much faster, at a higher quality level, maintaining far less inventory with DNC machine cells. But maybe I should have not made that transition because I might become "dependent" on the new and much better technology. Of course, I'd have gone out of business.
I'm really curious about your plan for making port in a complete dense fog, particularly where there may be freighter traffic.
I'm interested because I've been caught in that situation many times outside of Gulfport Harbor where the freighter channel and the small craft harbor entrance converge and are within about fifty feet or so of each other.
My wife, who has a GPS "conspicuously mounted on her dash" read your comment equating her competence with an individual who is incapable of making change. Certainly you should stay away from her.:)
Let's throw the toilets out of the house, outhouses worked fine!
Newt - I'm happy to know that you understand the essence of my view. Some call it minimalism, I just see it as the preservation of human value. At the end of the day all we really have is ourselves. Many people today are fretting and wringing their hands over the economy and their valued "things" so they haven't stopped to understand that their most precious possesion is their life.
Don't worry about the political differences as they are just superfluous distractions in our lives as well. It's like the clothes we wear, it shows our human diversity. Next year it will all change anyway.
So now that we have had a robust conversation on this topic, how does it address the original question of this thread - has anyone lost their life for the lack of a GPS (I don't include acts of stupidity in this question) - even more to the point has a day's sailing been any less pleasurable for the want of a GPS. If the answer to the last part is yes, maybe you should stick to navigating around your neighborhood with your dash mounted Tom Tom.
Sailing is the most rudimentary form of combining the forces of nature with human intellect to achieve a goal - it is the nature part that keeps us sailing. In my opinion we have never been able to improve upon nature so the more gadgets we introduce to our sailing the more we are distracted from the simple pleasure of sailing. How can you compare fooling around with gadgets to sitting back under sail enjoying a conversation with your sailing buddy or simply looking around and feeling the motion of the boat and the breeze on your flesh? I have sailed a lot of years before GPS and I can say that I wouldn't enjoy it any less without. What it all comes down to like I said before is not a matter of right or wrong but a question of preference. I prefer to keep my life as uncluttered as possible.
I don't wish to bore with so much rhetoric but great stories of survival aren't tales of some clever use of a techno gadget, but rather the will, determination, and ingenuity of the human spirit. There are thousands such true stories, but one that is most poignant for us sailors is the survival of Shackleton and the crew of Endurance. Is GPS necessary - hardly.
Brackish - I appreciate your need to remain competitive for economic survival but I'm afraid the real confusion here is your comparing industrialization ambitions to sailing. I would think they are quite opposite endeavors.
P.S. Newt are you referring to Panther Island in the 10,000 Islands?
There is a commercial on TV that shows a guy locking himself out of his car, calling on his cell phone to an operator thousands of miles away, that sends a signal via satellite to his car, unlocking the door.
I used to have an '82 Datsun 310 that solved the problem much more elegantly. You couldn't lock yourself out of it. Three doors could be locked from within by just pushing down the door button, or from outside, by pushing the button down and just slamming the door shut (for child safety and security), but the driver side door would automatically unlock itself when you slammed it shut. It was impossible to lock yourself out. If you wanted to lock the car up from outside, you needed to use the key on the driver's door. A mechanical key; no electronics involved.
Problem solved. No cell phone, no operator, no satellites, no electricity. Nada. 90% of our so-called modern conveniences are just marketing gimmicks.
Actually, there was one way to lock yourself out, and one day I discovered it..
1) Leave the key in the ignition.
2) Roll up all the windows.
3) Lock the driver's door with the latch button.
4) Slide over the stick shift handle and go out the passenger door.
5) Push down the passenger door inside latch button, hold down the outside button, and slam it shut.
Fortunately, my wife had a key.
Quote from: Potcake boy on January 05, 2010, 11:17:28 AM
Brackish - I appreciate your need to remain competitive for economic survival but I'm afraid the real confusion here is your comparing industrialization ambitions to sailing. I would think they are quite opposite endeavors.
Not true Ron, I was responding to your comment on the use of GPS in automobiles and the quite demeaning comment you made on the competence of those who "use" but are not "dependent" on the technology. Most driving is to achieve a goal, that is get to the destination in the most efficient manner, very similar to manufacturing. Most of the time, when just out for a sail, I never turn mine on. But when needing to make port in limited visibility conditions, it is wonderful.
Oh snap! Henry reminded me about that Datsun...The wife had a Datsun 310. And a 240-260-280-300 Z car as well.
The 310 blew a head gasket waiting and idling in 'N' at a railroad crossing on the very day that John Lennon was murdered.
That night I had the head in my hand. Next morning the Datsun parts guy saw me walking to the parts counter with blown head gasket in hand. He simply reached behind him and pull a fresh head gasket off a peg board and handed it to me. NOT ONE WORD FROM HIM, except "see ya." I turned around. Left the old gasket on his counter after checking to make sure the two gaskets matched up, jumped into my 1959 Austin Healey 100-6 and motored home and put the 310 back to get her..
As you said above: Nothing like a simple car.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/dart_med.jpg)
My favorite car! A 1963 Dodge Dart GT Convertable 225 slant six, push button auto, even a foot squeeze windshield washer squirter, hyd top. A rheostat on the heater fan. It was so cool.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/Tmp1.jpg)
Took this car, Ziggy, to an honest 155 mph at 6,750 rpm on the single nickle toll road between Chicago and Dekalb. Ziggy a 1976 XJ12C, bought as a roller, would change her rake at speed and squat down, butt high. Don't try to open ANY window or sun roof at speed.
Wife called it 'baby poop brown', Jaguar called it Sable.
skip.
Funny. My D-310 gave me 90k trouble free miles with only routine factory maintenance. I bought it new because a buddy of mine had one and he raved about how dependable it was. I liked it so much I traded it in 8 years later for '90 Sentra I still own and drive (134k miles), also trouble free with only R.F.M. Maybe it was the standard shift. I've never owned an automatic.
PS. In April, 2009, I finally broke down and bought my first cell phone (one of those unregistered untraceable drug dealer specials you recharge with a card bought at Publix.) Except for my wife, nobody knows my cell number.
Brackish-be cool, I am sure he did not mean to offend.
Ron- We stayed next to Panther key to weather a storm. Wonderful place down in the 10,000 islands. And a good beach.
Henry:
I have the same anti-lock feature on my 1984 Honda Accord Hatchback. Packs a whopping 86 hp, 5 speed, no radio just drive and listen to the engine. It's my sailing car. Force 5 masts and boom go on the racks and sails in the back.
There is something refreshing about driving a low-tech car; I can't figure it out. Maybe it just transports us back to a simpler time and we like the reminders. Dunno. But I like parking at a light next to a new Accord. Mine seems to say: "You wouldn't even exist without me!"
Bob23...with an over active imagination
Old cars have a neat smell, too. Especially old VW beetles. I owned a '64, a '67, and a '71.
Quote from: newt on January 05, 2010, 02:42:39 PM
Brackish-be cool, I am sure he did not mean to offend.
Ron- We stayed next to Panther key to weather a storm. Wonderful place down in the 10,000 islands. And a good beach.
Newt - thank you, you are correct that it wasn't my purpose to be demeaning - my McDonald's reference wasn't about the employee but rather the direction our society has taken, and it was intended to be a clear analogy for the use of GPS by many who subscribe to the notion that (as Henry said - promoted by marketers) we must have these things to function.
Sorry if anyone has a hair trigger but if my remarks would be thoroughly thought out before an emotional response then it would be perfectly clear that I don't pass judgement on others for their preferences in the use of technology. I stated that I don't see it as right or wrong, but a matter of personal preference. My point is that it's easy to get lost in the glitz and glitter and forget about the substance. I don't think I can state that more concisely.
From a sailing perspective, if someone asked me if they should get a GPS for their boat I'd say I don't know. If they asked me if they need a GPS for their boat I'd say no. I sailed the Chesapeake for many years and fog is a common occurrence in November. I never had anything but charts a compass and a depth finder for navigating. Sailed more than once between Annapolis and the Susquehanna in fog so dense that you literally couldn't see beyond the lifelines. Yes it kept me a little tense and alert for sure, but I wasn't paralyzed because of the lack of a GPS. In those days Loran was flourishing and the repeatability of that system was quite impressive, but I didn't have the sailing budget to afford one of those. Now that I can afford, and do have a GPS I'm just not as moved by hi-tech in my sailing. Sailing to me is many things like sharing experiences with friends and family, occasional adventure, and building great memories, it's not oriented around convenience and efficiency.
I was supposed to be anchored off Panther Key at this very moment. The plan was to trail the 19 down to Point of Islands Marina and meet up with some members of the West Coast Trailer Sailors Squadron for a few days sail in those waters. Well my crew got cold feet - or at least he was sure he would and requested a rain check for warmer weather. Last year at this time is when we did the Keys Cruise and it was pretty cold then as well. Most of the group headed home early, but I stayed and had a fantastic sail. Not that I like cold weather - I don't - but it didn't get in the way of a little adventure.
Ron
Some thoughts:
This thread was started by a media report of a GPS failure that led to a sensational and potentially morbid outcome. It was also a random, mutually exclusive, and sample size irrelevant event. On the same day, I would venture to say there was no article written about the literally millions of folks who arrived at their destinations safely and efficiently, either by car, boat, plane or on foot by using proven GPS technology. It is what the media does. It worked with us, got us debating without grounding the debate with relevance.
"this is my position and here are the reasons why I hold this position". This is constructive and welcome regardless of the readers relative agreement with the position. "This is my position and if you don't share same, you are as incompetent as ______". This is destructive and potentially offensive depending on what the blank is filled in with. I'll leave it at that with a suggestion, Ron, that you work on your analogies.
I'm not a gadget person. Based on what I do not own, I would probably be at about ten percentile along the gadget appreciation continuum. However, I am a fan of GPS technology and my question to the minimalist(s) was never answered. I've read some philosophical writings by those with a minimalist bent, but I'll repeat my specific question with more detail and maybe get an answer.
You are leaving Ship Island and heading for Gulfport harbor about twelve miles away across the Sound. You are sailing a compass course and will continue to do so until you get a visual on the Gulfport skyline which may be immediate or may be a quite a few miles off depending on atmospheric conditions. There is a deep ship channel to your port used by freighters and the occasional gaming and cruise ship, and you are staying well away from it but keeping the markers visible to affirm your position and course until you see the skyline. You will have to cross the intercoastal out in the middle of the sound and delineated only by occasional markers, and there is barge traffic there, but you are keeping track of the barge off your starboard bow, to determine if you are on a collusion course. It seems that you are, but you will duck behind when you get closer.
You have a ninety percent chance that you are on a run with a following sea, that requires good helmsman effort to maintain course. The other ten percent of the time you will be tacking to weather. Let's assume the ninety.
Your goal is to enter the Gulfport small craft harbor. The entrance is narrow, maybe fifty feet across, with markers out about a half mile. At the entrance to starboard is a rock jetty with water on both sides, the non channel side is shallow. To port are shoals with no visible delineation by reading the water, only the green channel markers. Just west, further to port about a hundred feet from the small craft channel is the deep water freight channel. There is likely to be traffic at any given time. It will be traffic that will not be able to avoid you if you are in the way and you do not have the right of way because you are sailing.
You've got about four miles to go and all of a sudden a dense fog rolls out from land. From your helm position you can see your compass but nothing past your bow. You know that the barge is still off your starboard bow. You know, within maybe a quarter of a mile diameter circle, approximately where you are. How, very specifically, do you make your approach and safely reach your slip?
Over a forty year span with navigational aids from nothing to RDF/ADF, to Loran, to GPS, I've made this trip maybe 250 times, with maybe ten of those in the conditions described or worse, in a raging blinding thunderstorm. It is my view that everybody who might venture out in conditions as described above should have a GPS even if they only turn it on once in a blue moon. Mine, with software, was less than 500 bucks. One safe arrival to port in dangerous conditions and I consider it more than paid for.
That's a thoughtful post, brackish. New technology seems to spur differences of opinion about efficacy, ethics, morality and virility among those who chose to use it and those who prefer not to. I suspect there were similar conversations when sailors first began using compasses. Or sextants.
The older technologies are comfortable. We've learned how to use them, when to trust them and when to question their results. The learning curve for adopting GPS involves more than just which button to push and how to interpret the moving map. It involves learning the failure modes and developing a sense of when to trust the instrument and when to question in. Before there were electronic calculators we used slide rules. The fundamental lesson of the slide rule is "trust but verify." We'd use the precision result available from the slide rule only if it was in pretty good agreement with the math we did in our heads. If not, we'd come at the problem from another direction.
GPS is another tool, a sharper one than we've had before, but still not infallible.
I will be happy to tell you what I would do Brachish, if I was in a mimmialist mode. I would get off the channel, hopefully in a protected area, and wait out the storm. If I had to get back to my job, I would fire up the GPS, the AIS and radar and navigate accordingly. Do you want to fish with a fly rod or electroshock with a net?
Brackish - I would have responded sooner but have actual matters of substance in my life that require my time.
To address your question I read it thoroughly so that I understood it clearly. It seems that the answer was provided in your statement that you have navigated that approach for forty years or so well before the advent of GPS, Loran, or even RDF.
So how DID you navigate threading a major commercial route in zero visibility fog without these aides or RADAR? I think I would have been prone to take Newt's advice with or without GPS. Most any prudent sailor would tell you to avoid already risky situations in bad weather even with GPS. Has your GPS lured you into unwarranted risks - have you failed to do your own thinking?
The following is personal commentary and has no sailing related value:
This forum was created for Compac sailors to exchange information, ideas, and opinions - it has fulfilled that purpose well. I responded to a question about the importance of GPS to us small boat sailors which by it's nature mandated an opinion. My opinion included a little extra color which to most folks suggests the less serious side of opinion as opposed statement of fact. There was no personal reference to you or any group that I think you'd want to identify with. However with the help of your wife, you decided that you were personally offended, and assumed the right for personal retaliation against me. I posted a clarification mainly for your benefit, but you seem bent on continuing this antagonistic pursuit with your subsequent posts. If your goal is contentious debate, maybe you should take it elsewhere. Harking back to your roots, McDonald's has a 55+ breakfast club that offers free coffee refills. There seems to be plenty of lively debate, and I'm sure the floor is open to any gripe.
Hopefully this makes my position perfectly clear and I offer apologies only to the rest of this group for having to slough this worthless verbage. This concludes my respose to this or any future posts from you.
Ron
Quote from: Potcake boy on January 07, 2010, 09:45:15 AM
It seems that the answer was provided in your statement that you have navigated that approach for forty years or so well before the advent of GPS, Loran, or even RDF.
So how DID you navigate threading a major commercial route in zero visibility fog without these aides or RADAR?
Ron
My statement was that I made that trip 250 or so times with about ten of them having the approach blinded. I never made any statement about "making" the approach blindly without instruments. I simply asked those that considered GPS optional or not necessary how they would do that. Newt was right. I had to immediately turn to a course that paralleled the ICW veering slightly away from it and going in a direction opposite the barge tow. Then, when sure the barge had passed, turn back north to a new course that would take me at least a half mile east of the small craft channel entrance. At that point, out of traffic, heave to or drop a hook and wait for the fog to lift. As far as a GPS luring me into a dangerous situation, that is ridiculous. When on a multi-day trip do you think you can predict the onset of fog?
On the other hand, Ron, you made the statement
"I sailed the Chesapeake for many years and fog is a common occurrence in November. I never had anything but charts a compass and a depth finder for navigating". With that experience, I thought you may have commented on how to make a blind channel approach. I won't do it, don't think it is safe (without GPS), but if there is a safe method, you should share it. Or maybe you did the same thing, waited for the clear.
Ron, you must have missed the smile by the comment about my wife. She thought it was funny.
Fly fishing Newt, although I've tried it and am terrible at it. Can't get that ten o'clock/two o'clock thing down. Thing is, I don't equate the skill and challenge required for that with bobbing around waiting for the fog to lift. You've made it clear that others may find that part of the experience valuable. I can add that to the list of things I used to know for sure but now don't fully understand but accept. As I've aged, that list keeps growing. Inexplicably, I find that comforting.
Ron, around here the old guys use Hardee's. Haven't been but I might try it.:)
Wow- I have to go show these posts to my wife. Here I am right on both sides of a discussion. She is sure that I am usually wrong on both sides :)
Ok, now gents:
This reminds me of an instance when, about 2 years ago here on the site, I shot my mouth off to a fellow Compac-er. (not implying that anyone here is or has done that.) He shot back, I re-shot. After some thought (and prayer) I realized what an ass I was, apoligized to my bro, and we emerged as comrades here on the site. I haven't heard from him in a while, though, and miss him and his contributions.
I really didn't follow this thread all that close so I ain't gonna pick it apart. Suffice to say, my good friend Jim B. once gave me some advice that I'll use for the rest of my life: "Eat the fish and spit out the bones!"
I have learned so much from these exchanges and sure hope that my occasional 2 cents helps or at least entertains some of you. If I have ever offended anyone here, my sincerest apologies. I don't think it has.
Sure would be cool if everyone showed up at Carlyle Lake! I hopin' to!!!
Bob23
Henry- I've owned about 14 air-cooled vw's in the past. They are unique. I did the most laughing and the most cursing in them! I'd love to have another one but I love my Tundra's heat!
Wow, This was a good one to miss out on. Only comment I could add would be for everyone to go back and read carefully what they and others have posted then think what they have proposed in other posts.
Melvin