Hello all,
I'm interested in mounting surge brakes to my 2006 Eclipse boat trailer (Performance Trailer- no brakes) this winter.
Has anyone done this ?
I had all ready put 14inch rims / tires on the trailer when I got the boat. I had to cut the fenders off and remounted new fenders which all came out nicely.
I would like to find stainless steel parts to do this if possible.
Glenn B.
Glenn,
When I had my trailer built from a power boat trailer and ordered brakes on one axle the sales guy said its easy to do etc. HA- I insisted they do it for me and was glad I did.
First you have to cut off the tongue to put the surge mechanism on then you have to find out if you can add the brake drum and brake assembly to your existing axle. Turns out, at least on mine you could not. Fortunately I was quoted a fixed price and the company had to stand the cost of a new axle. You may need a special plug to convert the electrical.
Otherwise they have been a pain - one wheel tends to lock when the trailer is empty and moving forward. I'm almost afraid to take it apart to see what is happening. I don't know if you can find SS parts - But they will be expensive - all it takes is one rusted spring and you're in trouble anyway.
I was warned that the brakes may prevent the trailer from backing but that has not been a problem.
This is one job that should be left to the experts methinks Matt
Matt,
The axle was a concern for me, I don't know if there is enough room between the frame and hub to mount the backing plate ?
I plan on cutting the tongue any way to make a telescoping extension so I don't have to get my rear wheels wet.
As to the reliability of the surge brakes, I have never had problems with them in the past, the back and forth action while driving is so what annoying but having brakes out weighs the cons.
I would perfer electric brakes but I'm all ways having electrical issues re lights not working and thought the surge brakes would be better for me.
Ive towed trailers with no brakes, with surge brakes and with electric brakes, I like the electric brakes system by far but like I said electrical systems and I don't do well .
I think taking into a shop to get a good idea of what needs to be doneand cost of doing so is a good idea, at least by talking to an installer I might get a better insight as to how much effort this is really going to take vs paying to have it done.
Ive got some time to think about it any way............
Glenn B.
Glenn, go to page 4 of this particular forum. Kchunk (Greg) converted his drum brakes to disk brakes. He did have to have the axle extended in order to make it work. Lot of info on the subject on his thread.
Frank 2
Thanks Frank,
I just got through reading what you referred me to.
The disc Brakes he has are really nice and would most like be the best way to go. saying that, he all ready had drum brakes where I have none.
I need to do some measuring to see how much room I have between the frame and the hub backing plate.
Glenn
I've had a number of boat and other trailers and I've become sort of an expert in the subject. Recently had to rebuild a 2 1/2 year old Venture trailer for my Telstar, mainly because I trusted the boat builder to equip it correctly. Last time I do that. Performance Cruising may build a decent boat, but they have absolutely no idea of what a trailer needs.
First of all, you've got to check your state laws as to what the trailer has to have. Generally speaking, you must have brakes if the boat and trailer weight over 2,500 to 3,000 pounds (depending on the state). If the trailer has tandem axles, roughly half of the states require brakes on ALL wheels. Even if your state does not require this, it's normally a good idea anyway. Depending on the size of the wheels and brakes, it may not be able to stop more than about 3500 pounds of total weight with 2 brakes, and it's going to push all the excess onto your poor tow vehicle. Don't be surprised if you hit the semi in front of you when he stops.
What kind of brakes should you get? Although its a better system overall, electric brakes do not do that well in water. Great for my 11,000 pound Haulmark enclosed car hauler, but it's not that easy to keep the water out of the brakes and wiring when you back it up into the water. Surge brakes are probably the better choice for almost all boat trailers. Another choice is drums vs discs. If your water has salt in it, there is really no choice. The drums are nearly sealed and it's hard to flush water out of them. Discs are open and can be flushed very easily. I'd use discs in any kind of water because they have many other advantages - like cooling off a lot faster if used hard. I wound up replacing 2 drum brakes on the Venture's front axle with 4 Tiedown Engineering aluminum caliper vented disc brakes. Also had to replace the actuator (surge tongue) with a Tiedown actuator made for disc brakes and added a solenoid to allow the discs to back up in reverse. By the way, the difference between towing long distances (NJ to/from FL) with 2 drums vs 4 discs is huge. Night and day. I went from crossing my fingers when cut off on I-95 (please don't stop!!!) to "who cares".
Anyway, this is a huge topic. I could probably write a book about it. For example, how many of you have weighed the trailer tongue? This is critical if you want to be able to tow safely. For some of the larger boats, do you use a weight distributing hitch? Etc., Etc.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28
Looking to buy a Horizon Cat (to leave in NJ and stop trailering boats around).
Ron,
Yes the disc seems to be the way to go and using a surge is my choice for reasons you described.
State wise (California) I'm okay without brakes.
My 1996 s10 Blazer tows my Eclipse okay but I would like a little more braking !
In a panic stop I'm not going to be able to stop, even with surge disc brakes I doubt if I could stop, however, for the day to day towing I think the brakes would be advantages over all.
Glenn B.
Glenn,
I have a 1990 CP 19 III, which is only slightly lighter than the boat you have. I rebuilt the trailer from scratch, replacing every bolt with Grade 5 or 8, total rewire with LED lights, new bunks, tires, springs and axle. The brakes were added at that time as the trailer did not have them. The job is a fairly easy one, but you may need or want to replace your axle if you don't have brake flanges on it. Also your boat may not be heavy enough for disk brakes and will probably have to use drums. The brake coupler just bolts on, so at the most a hole or two might be required, but the drilling went easily. I would suggest you go to Champion Trailer Parts Supply. They have a website with plenty of technical information on what you would need and how to do the job. They didn't have everything I needed but are a good place for info and I thought the best deal on a quality custom axle. (3500 lbs. 8" drums are very hard to find - I kept the original 10" wheels. Didn't go for the larger wheels because I didn't want to raise the trailer and make the launch more difficult. However in hind sight I think you were right to change the wheels, as finding the right brakes is very difficult.) The new drums have a special yellow zinc coating and you may find that all the new coatings available will work as well as stainless, as stainless is only rust resistant and will rust if not maintained. Stainless steel needs special lubricants even for the bolts or it fuses so I actually found myself avoiding it due to cost, brittle properties and fusing issues. Not always the best on a trailer. It was an interesting project - have fun.
David
Glenn -
You better re-check your source on California trailer brake laws. The AAA says "Required over 3000 lbs. GVW / on at least 2 wheels". Here's one source for all of the various states - http://www.roadkingtrailers.com/brakelaws.htm. I had a Road King trailer under a wing keel Catalina 250 about 3 years ago. Not bad but it had 4 drum brakes. Not the best setup for salt water. Sold the boat because of the time it took to rig it and that it took close to 6 feet of water at boat ramps to get it on or off the trailer. Hard to find a ramp on the east cost with that much water at the end.
I've got over 5,000 miles on the 6500 pound Telstar 28/Venture rig (combined weight of boat and trailer) pulled by around 6,500 pounds of Chevrolet Avalanche. Perhaps 3500 miles was with the riduculous pair of drums that Venture bolted on. The brakes were rated at about 1/2 of the trailers total weight. Didn't really know what I was missing until I ripped off the 2 awfull drums and bolted on a set of 4 vented discs. The damn thing can stop now, perhaps 50 percent better than before. No, I won't outbreak a Corvette with 15 inch rotors, but I feel a lot safer now. I carry a laser temperature gun in the truck which I use to measure the wheel / hub temperatures at some rest stops. How about close to 400 degrees on the trailers 2 braked hubs before the upgrade to around 125 on all 4 after? The trucks 4 wheel discs dropped by around 50 degrees too.
Other modifications to the trailer included moving both axles back 4 inches on the trailers frame - to get the tongue weight up to around 9 percent of the load. It was around 7 percent before. Also replaced the lights with totally waterproof LED's, etc. I've been using an Equal-I-zer weight distributing hitch for about 4 years now too, moving close to half of the tongue weight to the trucks front axle. All of these things help.
I no longer have to cross my fingers moving a boat between FL and NJ. It's turned into a comfortable and easy trip. I have to look in the rear view mirror to make sure the boat and trailer are still there!
David,
The trailer you have, is it a "performance trailer" ?
My trailer seems a bit under sized for the size and weight of my boat, it seems to flex a lot while going down the road.
Glenn B.
Ron,
When I registered my boat with California DMV I had to have the trailer inspected by the California Highway Patrol which they did giving me an approval for DMV, and my tags !
Glenn B.
Glenn, it has always amazed me that companies will put a to light (cheap) trailer under a tens of thousand dollar boat, i suppose the reason is to keep the package price down. Over the years I have found you will never be sorry in over kill on the trailer........Phil
Quote from: nies on December 01, 2009, 11:46:46 AM
it has always amazed me that companies will put a to light (cheap) trailer under a tens of thousand dollar boat, i suppose the reason is to keep the package price down.
I suppose that's one of the reasons. But the primary one is that they know very little about building a trailer. Putting 2 small drum brakes on a tandem axle trailer rated at 7500 pounds gvw (in my case) was almost a bad joke, and illegal in the 2 states where my trailer lives (and those in the middle as well). The instruction manual from the company that makes the brakes on the trailer plainly states "You must install brakes on all axles", and that the pair of brakes on each axle are capabable of stopping 3500 pounds in total. How about the other 3500? No one else bothered to read the brake instruction manual?
I had a long talk with Tony Smith (head of Performance Cruising) about his trailers. He relied on Venture to guide him as to what was the right thiing to do. He apologized and is now equipping all of the Telstar trailers with 4 brakes. Unfortunately they are still drums, but that's still a major improvement. He didn't want to go with discs because not all trucks have wiring installed to operate the backup solenoid that's required on the actuator. Didn't want to be in a position of letting someonw leave the parking lot with a trailer that can't back up. You've got to release the pressure on a disc brake system. Drums don't care.
If money wasn't an object, I would be willing to buy or have a new trailer made equip-ed the way I wanted it, but that's not my reality.
Facing retirement in June (2010) I wanted to add the brakes while I was still working and I thought I would be looking at about $400 to $600 to do so.
Now I'm not so sure of what can of worms I will open !
Glenn B.
Hi Glenn, I see that my post from a few years ago was mentioned back from when I replaced my drum brakes with disc. The job should be just as easy if you're adding brakes. The only parts of my original brakes I used were the brake flanges already on the axles. Did you look at your axle spindles to see if they even have brake flanges. They just might be there. If not, replace the axle.
The website I like a lot is Easternmarine.com. They have a lot of technical info on there website to make figuring out the project relatively easy.
(http://shop.easternmarine.com/images/category/166.jpg)
Here's a link from their site to picking the right axle: http://www.easternmarine.com/em_store/tech_info/axles_tech_info.html (http://www.easternmarine.com/em_store/tech_info/axles_tech_info.html)
A replacement 3500# axle with brake flanges looks like it will cost you around $125 depending on length. For a couple bucks more you can opt for a 4" drop axle which will get you back some of that trailer height you added by switching to larger wheels (but then your fenders might not fit). Either way, it looks like you have to have the leaf spring seats welded on which should be no problem. You'll just need to locate them from your old axle and have someone tack weld them on.
Straight axles: http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.catalog&categoryID=166 (http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.catalog&categoryID=166)
Drop axles: http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.catalog&categoryID=167 (http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.catalog&categoryID=167)
(http://shop.easternmarine.com/images/product/6721.jpg)
As for the brake kit, you have a couple choices. I went with the Kodiak 10" S-Cad. The S-Cad is described as "Silver cadmium plating offers the best value of protection for salt water applications". Surely the stainless brakes would be best for salt water, but I only use my trailer a few times a year so I couldn't justify the cost (the stainless brakes are about 3X the cost).
Here is the link for the S-Cad kit for $122.95: http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=6721&categoryID=302 (http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=6721&categoryID=302)
As well as the stainless kit for $379.95: http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=6722&categoryID=302 (http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=6722&categoryID=302)
Both kits contain everything you'll need behind your wheels: hubs, lugs, lug nuts, bearings, brackets, rotors, calipers, brake pads and hardware. The only thing here is to make sure the bolt pattern will work with your wheels. You need wheels with a 5 on 4.5" bolt pattern. Here's a link to a bolt pattern template to help you figure it out: http://www.easternmarine.com/em_store/trailertires/bolt_circle.html (http://www.easternmarine.com/em_store/trailertires/bolt_circle.html)
(http://shop.easternmarine.com/images/product/5436.jpg)
Next, you'll need an actuator. I went with the least expensive, a Titan / Dico Model 60 with built in in reversing solenoid, $120. Here's the linky-link: http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=5436&categoryID=150 (http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=5436&categoryID=150).
FYI, the reversing solenoid is necessary for backing up your trailer. When you put your vehicle in reverse, the solenoid actuates, blocking hydraulic pressure from locking your brakes. Drum brakes don't require this solenoid, but disc brakes do. For this coupler you'll need a 2" ball on your vehicle.
(http://shop.easternmarine.com/images/product/5930.jpg)
Lastly, you need a brake line kit. Since your boat/trailer combination doesn't weigh a whole lot, you can go with a flex line kit. It's less expensive and easier to install than a the rigid stainless kit. I have a flex line kit for my 23 and it works just fine for $60: http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=5930 (http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=5930)
So, not including shipping, it looks like you'll be about $428 into it for a basic set-up and the price goes up if you opt for any stainless upgrades or the drop axles. Definitely not a bad price and definitely do-able for the average shade-tree mechanic. However, be prepared...this stuff is heavy and so is the shipping bill!
If you have any specific questions, feel free to post them here or email me directly.
--Greg
*EDIT* I just thought of something else. If you have a tongue extension you'll need to account for that in your brake line. Either a loop of line equal to the lenght of your extension or a brake line quick disconnect. I went with the quick disconnect because I store my trailer in my garage but I need to completely remove the tongue. Just a thought...
Glenn -
It may not be that bad. Describe the boat and trailer. For the trailer - How many axles, wheel size, general shape, gvw rating. What does the boat actually weigh?
As I recall, you mentioned that it does not currently have brakes. What are the hubs bolted to? If there is a square bracket (maybe 5 or 6 inches square) with 4 holes welded to the end of the axle, that will accept either the drum backing plate or the caliper mounting bracket, depending on what you buy. Note that discs do not really cost that much more than drums, so your choice is not that difficult.
Depending on the size of the wheels you would have to buy either 9.9 (13 inch wheels) or 12 inch (14 inch wheels) rotors and the matching calipers. You can get these for around $90 to $100 apiece per kit. The actuator would run between $100 to $220 or so, depending on the weight of the trailer and boat. Add another $50 for the backup solenoid and maybe another $60 for the stainless tubing and fittings. Assuming you can do it yourself (or with help from a friend), the cost would be around $400 for a single axle and perhaps $550 to $600 for tandem.
You can shop around, especially on the internet, to find the best prices. I went with TieDown Engineering brakes, actuator and solenoid. Good quality, reasonable price. The vented rotors are coated and the calipers are aluminum. At that time, and based on current pricing, I wound up buying the 4 disc brake kits from Trailer Parts Superstore and the tubing, actuator, solenoid and hardware from Champion Trailers.
If the axles do not have the mounting plate, that could change everything. But - your hubs must be bolted to something, right?
One other note. Depending on what kind of truck you're pulling with, you may have to hook up a wire from one of the backup lights to the trailer hitch - using a 5 pin plug rather than a 4 pin.
Ron M
Telstar 28
looking to buy a Horizon
Glenn, remember a sign in a auto repair shop "Shop hourly rate $25.00/hr., if you worked on it $40.00/hr." Sometimes its cheaper, faster and a better job if you can find someone who business it is to fix and modify trailers..........Phil
Not necessarily, Phil. Granted, as a mechanic, I'm rather mechanically inclined :) However, if Glenn or anyone for that matter, takes on this relatively easy job, he or she can claim rights to a Ph.D. of trailerology, specializing in boat trailers. Yes, a trailer doctor, with all the right, duties, powers and privileges contained within. Basically, anything that happens to that trailer from that point forward you'll be easily qualified to repair it yourself. In other words, just a little more self reliant.
--Greg
Greg,
From what I recall from repacking my bearings, the only thing I recal is where the hub mounted to a backing plate. or is this what your talking about "Flange" ? or are you talking about the back plate like on "drum" brakes ?
In my case its a 5 lug pattern 4 1/2" on center.
Thanks for all the links to look at, what I thought was going to be easy (physically and cost effective) as certainly open my eyes to other possibilities like changing the axle, moving the axle, stiffer springs ect.
All most too much information to digest at one time !
I will review all information given by all.
Thanks.
Glenn B.
Phil,
You have some pretty low shop hourly rates, here in town my local mechanic shop hour is $85.00
Glenn B.
It may seem confusing but it's really simple...don't be intimidated.
Here's a picture of an axle, with a spindle and a brake flange:
(http://www.championtrailers.com/3500spdl.gif)
The flange is the square plate with the four holes and is standard size. The brake caliper bracket will bolt to it like was born there.
Usually the axle, spindle and flange are welded into an assembly and sold like that. If you look at the axle link I included in the earlier post, you can see the flange on the axle.
If your wheels are a 5 on 4.5 lug pattern that just makes things that much easier.
--Greg
Greg,
I think I have this "flange plate" I will look at it when I get a chance this Saturday.
Also, I have a 2 inch ball, my new fenders have about 3" clearance from the underside of the fenders to the top of the wheel. 14 inch wheels.
I don't think I want to go with a drop axle, the new tires only seemed to raise my boat an inch or 2, but that is not a problem here in California as all the ramps I use are nice and steep.
The only problem I have is low tide and I have to back in over the slippery stuff, that's why I wanted the extension on the tongue. a loop in the line would be perfect in my case.
Greg, and others, here is my email addresses.
glenn.basore@medtronic.com
Greg, I would like to e-mail you but not sure how to do it from here, would you mind contacting my above e-mail.
Glenn B.
Glenn, should have stated that it was a long time ago that I saw the sign......Phil
Glenn,
I'm not sure if it is a Performance trailer, it's wrapped for winter, but it flexes like a fishing rod. This thing makes me nervous. But you know, it has been going for 19 almost 20 years and has made some long trips over some tough roads ( I know because I did the driving ) and so far no broken welds or bolts. The trailer you have is stiffer and better built than the one I am using, as the laws governing the construction of trailers have changed and have forced companies to do a better job with them, so I believe your trailer should be sound even if it flexes. Sometimes flexing isn't a bad thing, just watch a loaded flatbed trailer on the highway, or for that matter a suspension bridge and you will see them move.
I think you have some good links and it may seem a lot, but when you go through it all, I am sure you will find it is not too bad a job and you can do it in the price range you are looking for.
Good Luck,
David
Glenn, I sent you an email.
You can get member's email by clicking on their name to the left here...
<--------
It will open a screen with their profile and their email (if they've made it available).
--Greg
Gleen, I am completely lost, you will have to explain to me how the trailer flexes,.....have trailered for eons and never saw or heard of a small boat trailer flexing.....if you mean the trailer not following straight, had that problem until I moved the boat forward for more weight on the ball,.......is flexing up and down is what you mean , I can not believe you have not cracked a weld......just wondering........Phil
Phil,
I have no problem towing. It just seems to twist, flex or spring like action a bit while going down our rough roads here in California. May be I'm just used to other trailers (car trailer and other boat trailers) that I have owned being very ridged.
I notice some flexing of the trailer when backing into my drive way as well, it appears the whole trailer frame twist / flex while backing up the driveway at the curb area.
The back of my tow veh is in the street and the trailer is in a bit higher postion on the drive way until I get the tow veh on the driveway as well.
I would think the trailer frame would be stiff enough that it would not flex , twist or bounce at all.
I have not found any damage to the trailer.
The trailer side frame are "L" and not a "box" frame as I would like.
Glenn, wow..........I probably worry to much in my senior years, but the whole trailer flexing would cause me to think about trading trailers at some point......I believe you said it has been this way for years of towing, so maybe on my part, its much to do about nothing............Phil
Just about any two dimensional frame will flex, and that includes cars, trucks, boats, and trailers. One of the reasons why they weld multipoint roll cages onto race cars is to make it 3 dimensional which is much more rigid. Trailer frames are long box or L shaped beams with several cross beams bolted or welded on. Make it long enough with a fairly heavy boat on it and it will definitely flex and/or twist. It's reasonably safe as long as it's not overloaded, the metal is in decent shape and the flexing is not severe.
The companies that make the really heavy duty semi trailers get around this by putting a slight bend in the frame so that it's nearly straight when the very heavy loads are present. Take a look at just about every flatbed semi around - they are not really that flat.
Ron,
I described my frame sides as an "L" shape when in fact it's a "U" shape on end.
I have seen trailers as you have described with the pre bend shape and understand the engineering behind it.
I just think Performance Trailer made a cheap trailer and put it under my boat.
Glenn B.
My situation is similar to Glenn's, except that the Performance trailer for my Eclipse is equipped with the original 10" rims. I'd rather not go to larger diameter wheels at this time.
TieDown's kits look great, but the smallest drum size is 10", which I'm guessing won't fit my wheels. Can anyone recommend a drum brake kit that will fit the original 10" rims?
Yep, throw some electric disc brakes on the trailer and put the control unit up under the kick panel of the tow thingy.
Many units to choose from, just decide on the weight and pick a mfg. of control.
Usually a bolt-on packaged deal.
Fleet-Farm?, Builder's Square?, Mobile Home Supply? or an aerocraft suply house for really tiny discs. [Go Carts].
Pick what ever will fit within the wheel rims.
Remember, your not stopping any 72,000 lb of semi truck.
Just a little drag is what you only need, if that.
I just brake sooner and longer and softer.
N.B.D. Use these on the Performance standard wheel/axle combination. Standard is...
...5 Lug on 4.5? Bolt Circle - 545
This is the standard 5 lug bolt pattern for the vast majority of boat trailer hubs and rims. It is also known as the small Ford bolt pattern.
(CAUTION) It should be noted that electric brake hub drums must have a flat machined magnet contact surface to operate successfully with electric brakes. Some hub drums are available in a hydraulic only style without this smooth machined surface. Hydraulic only style drums MUST be avoided when electric brakes are used.
Electric style drums can be used on either electric or hydraulic systems, but hydraulic style drums can only be used on hydraulic brakes.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/31JaIiwQbAL_SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Pair of 10" x 2.25" electric trailer brake assemblies with parts.
4 Hole Mounting
For Alko, Dexter, Quality, or other popular trailer axle manufacturers.
Contains 1 left and 1 right brake assembly.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/wpe14533-main_Full.jpg)
And you will need one brake control unit under the dash.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/HOPPY20CONTOLLER.jpg)
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skip
Red Planet,
I had the same issue. As it turns out, there is a company in Florida that sells a brake kit designed to handle this very problem. Rocket International Trailers, rockettrailers.com, sells a drum brake kit that fits in a 10" rim. The space inside the hub of a 10" rim is less than 9"s and this was the only brake I could find, disk or drum, rated to stop 3500 lbs of boat, trailer and boat crap that fits. Having seen first hand what happens when brakes are under-rated for the job, I don't screw around with this. Go to the parts section of their website, look for hydraulic drum brakes, part # 40240 - 8.5 Inch Hydraulic Drum Brake Kit - Complete Single Axle - 6600# $646.00. It's not cheap but it works well. I did the installation last year and have been happy with it. David
Thanks, David-V. That kit from Rocket International sounds perfect, and I like the safety margin of 6,600# stopping power. I've had the devil of a time finding anything small enough to fit inside my 10" rims, so I'll be ordering from Rocket International soon.
And thanks to Skip, for the clear discussion of electric brakes, with visuals!
R.U. Sure that you want to do hydraulics? A change in the trailer coupler is necessary to act as yet another brake master cylinder for the surge braking. The surge sometimes locks up the brakes which pulls the couple back and releases the brakes, then slams fwd when the tow slows again only to repeat this cycle of stuttering.
And then there is the backing up problem when ramping...so...or your going down the ramp and you put the brakes on. The tow stops but the trailer has zero brakes because the hitch/master cylinder with activates when the trailer is going fwd but not when going backwards. Not surging.
I just thought I'd ask.
Also at 6,600 lb that is 3x as much as the boat and trailer weighs, so your prepared to lock up the trailer wheels while barely stopping the tow. Hummmmmmm. Sound streaky to me.
We use electric on all our trailers, chippers, and stump grinders in the tree cutting business. Each trailer, chipper, or stumper requires a different control setting with the under dash control unit, even when using the same truck with several different trailers three-four times a day.
Just my two cents. You only need a slight drag. And then there is the rainy weather.
Reminds me of a joke.
A trucker is speeding down the highway and a state trooper asks on the C.B. , "Hey driver, how fast are you driving?' The driver lies and says OOOOhhh about 60 mph." The cop says, "I suggest you speed up because your trailer is doing 75 mph."
skip.
Red Planet & Skip,
The rating of 6600 lbs. is for a tandem axle. For some reason the hydraulic actuators are listed by the maximum load, but it is actually 6600 lbs. for two axles and 3500 lbs. for one axle. The brakes themselves are listed for 3000 or 3500 lbs., I don't remember. Whatever the actual rating, I was comfortable with the specs..
Newer hydraulic drum brakes are designed to be directional, in other words they work in the forward direction but not in reverse so backing up isn't a problem. Also there is an override pin in the actuator in case there is a problem. Of course this means that there is a right hand brake and a left hand brake, but the instructions were detailed and I didn't have any problem getting it right. As far as the brake chattering, I had read about this but haven't had any problems. There is a 1/2 second delay built into the actuator which seems to eliminate this problem.
As stated above, I installed this kit and have no complaints with the brakes. The actuator is the coupler and you might need to drill a hole or two to fit the tongue of your trailer to the actuator. The biggest problem I had was that I have an old trailer and the tongue is 2" across the top and 4" down. Newer trailers are usually 3" across, therefore I had to work something out with shims and grade 8 bolts. However I was able to find shims designed for this and the setup is stronger that the pivot point on the trailer further down the tongue.
Finally the trailer axle must have flanges for the brakes to bolt on to. I replaced the axle, but it was almost 20 years old and rusty so replacing it was part of the project anyway. Adjusting the brakes with a brake spoon can be challenging because the flanges are so close to the adjusting wheel. Fortunately this is not a job that needs to be done often.
Originally I looked into electric brakes, but couldn't find anything that fit into the hub of a 10" rim at the rating I wanted. Also I was concerned about mixing electricity with water. However there are a few companies out there that are making supper sealed brakes just for this purpose, there just weren't any units that fit my needs at the time I did the research.
David
"...so backing up is not a problem but their is a pin to over ride..." the non existant problem.
Excuse me. I'm laughing too hard. Actually I had no idea we had special drums that only brake in one direction. I always thought it was from the leading and trailing shoe within the drum. What do I know?
But to be truthful either system will work fine.
skip.
They also make a reversing solenoid that you plumb into the hydraulic brake line which either shuts down or returns the brake fluid to the master when you back up (wire attaches to backup lights). Required for disc brakes but could work nicely on drums. Note that a disc system has several advantages over drums, including significantly faster cool-down, better braking when wet, and much easier to flush out after a trip into salt water. You can also see how much lining you've got left on the calipers without having to tear everything apart. I recently swapped out a drum system for discs on my tandem axle 7500 pound GVW Venture trailer used on my Telstar. What a difference - in stopping power and just about everything else. The hubs are running about 100 degree cooler now.
I think electric brakes with a good controller in the truck are better than any of the hydraulic surge systems, BUT dunking them into water (salt or otherwise) scares the _____ out of me. I've got 2 large car haulers which work a lot better with electric, but they don't get backed into the Gulf of Mexico or Atlantic Ocean. Besides the wiring, wire connectors and an electric cylinder at each wheel, you're also got a 12 volt battery hidden somewhere on the trailer for break-away purposes. There's a reason why virtually every boat trailer with brakes has a surge system.
Ron M
Telstar 28, Horizon Cat soon?
Ron lucky you. Hope you aquire that Horizon Cat. I want one too.
I don't tow enough weight to worry about brakes.
"There's a reason why virtually every boat trailer with brakes has a surge system."
Good point. Didn't think about 'salt' water. I never get close to it.
As far as the 'electric cylinder' is concerned a ton of 'electric solenoids' work fine as a rusted-up blob of wires and steel laminates dipped in a factory coat of electric motor type varnish. As long as the contacts are clean. The bearings/slides for the moving part usually are a non conductive plastic type material and not effected by rust.
Being in the used equipment business at one time hundreds of motor starters have passed my way. They were just blobs but they worked. I don't know why.
I don't even unplug the trailer lights from the tow when launching my boat.
Nothing ever failed in 30 years. Don't care. Figure a little WD-40 and back in business.
"Note that a disc system has several advantages over drums, including significantly faster cool-down, better braking when wet, "
Sure do. Our company plane was an Air Commander and when Toby applied the brakes I'd watch the discs glow red hot and instantly cool back to black when coasting. That was so cool.
skip.
For anyone who is interested, here is a link to a Technical Paper published by Champion Trailer Parts Supply with a good discusion of the differences between disk and drum brakes, also when and why you would use one or the other.
http://www.championtrailers.com/DrumVsDiscBrakeArtcl.htm
David
Thanks for posting the Champion link, David-V. It's an excellent paper, which I stumbled across in the research leading up to my earlier question here. The article convinced me to stick with drum brakes for my 2,990# GVWR trailer, even though disk brakes are much sexier, not to mention easier to rinse after a dip in the brine.
I might go with electric brakes if it weren't for the added complexity and cost. But I've had surge brakes before and they were okay. Years ago I did some fishing and diving out of a Grady-White, which I towed all around Florida. The trailer was equipped with hydraulic surge brakes that performed well. Backing up was an issue once or twice, easily resolved by throwing the lock-out pin. Now there are solenoid systems to handle that without leaving the driver's seat.
The truth is that the options are limited, as you discovered. I'm happy with the launch/retrieval characteristics of my boat/trailer combination with the 20.5x8.0x10 tires. Changing to larger diameter rims in order to fit typical brake drums or disks would entail tires that are disproportionately taller, so ramps would have to be deeper, etc. I'll never forget retrieving a CP 19 I formerly owned, at a remote ramp near Savannah, twenty years ago, with not a soul around to help (or laugh at me, fortunately!). For a while there it was a toss-up whether I'd drown the car or drag the bottom out of the boat. With the Eclipse and the low-profile trailer tires, Hutchins has done a lot to mitigate the launching challenge.
s/v "Luna Sea"
2005 Com-Pac Eclipse
Red Planet, by the sounds of it you have owned both a CP19 and now an Eclipse. Can I ask what you think of the Eclipse in comparison to the CP19? I haven't seen an Eclipse yet ( I'm talking about the boat), but am very interested in one as a possible upgrade. Do you believe the Eclipse is as well made as the CP19? Compared to other boat I have seen in the 18' - 20' range the CP19 is very well built. The boat I have will be 20 years this spring and no stress cracks. Does the Mastender System make that much of a difference? I have managed to streamline my launch time with the CP19 down to the 20 - 25 min. range. How about getting it back on the trailer with the shallower draft, there are several launches in my area that I won't use because I don't want to deal with the return trip. Concerning the interior space, I do not find the CP19 particularly comfortable to sit in. The Eclipse looks as if Com-Pac has done a better job with the quarter births in terms of a place to sit or just escape from the sun when necessary. In photographs the cabin interior of the Eclipse doesn't look quite as nice as that of the CP19, however photographs aren't always good for judging these things. (I had a CP16 that looked far better than one could ever have guessed from the photos.) Finally, how do you like the open transom? It seems to me that it would be great when the weather is warm, but I have concerns about all that open space when the wind picks up on a brisk Fall day. Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, David.
David-V,
I'd like to move your question and my reply to the Eclipse section of this forum http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?board=17.0 (http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?board=17.0). Maybe we can wrangle some comments from other Eclipse owners who may have previously owned a CP19. I'm still fishing for knowledgeable comparisons myself. Hope you don't mind.