Hello All... I've been towing my CP16 with an 02 Dodge Dakota (2WD) with no problems but my truck is reaching the end of the line and I'm searching for a new vehicle. I'm considering a Toyota Corolla but am concerned it may be too small? It is rated for 1500lbs towing but wondered if there is any real world towing experience with this vehicle-boat combination... I expect my towing to be once a week for only a few miles to the local ramp but want to explore waters an hour or two (or more?) away w/o worry of stressing out the vehicle or myself with worry. Any thoughts???
As always, I appreciate the help...
Mike
MIKE, I SPENT YEARS TOWING WITH CARS THAT WERE ARE AT THERE LIMIT OF TOWING CAP. NOT A GOOD IDEA. I COULDNT AFFORD MUCH. THE HOURS I SPENT WORRYING MADE THE TRIPS LIKE I WAS PULLING THE BOAT WITH MY BODY. BE SURE TO OVER MATCH VEHICLE TO THE TOW, YOU WONT BE SORRY....PHIL
I feel the same as Nies. You can get by using the Corolla, but if it were me I would be paranoid the entire drive which would detract from the overall sailing experience. I towed my CP16 a 150 miles with a smaller car, everything went fine, but I wouldn't want to do it on a regular basis. We bought a $1,200 Jeep Grand Cherokee this spring just to tow the boat with. Having a heavy vehicle with a full frame, 4x4, and four wheel disk brakes rated to tow 5,000 pounds helps to calm the nerves on the interstate (and the ramp). If I didn't have the Jeep, I would still tow with the small car (BMW 328), but my blood pressure would be significantly higher than it is now. I like knowing the truck and trailer will get me wherever I want to go on land, and the boat will get me wherever I want to go on the water.
We pull ours with Silverado 1500, 2w. Yes over kill, but...hey we are old and older.
One can always go a bit more then the mf'g. suggests. It is amazing what something so small can pull.
I saw a photo on the net where a 1929 Ford Model "A" two door coupe and getting ready to get her wet. And that is only 40 hp at 2800 rpm max, and mechanical brakes, it was hooked up to a small centerboard sail boat about 18 foot with a cutty cabin and outboard motor hanging on the back, sitting on the 'put-in' ramp. So that might be about 1400 pounds with trailer. The car weighs about 2800 because she is stamped out of 19 ga. sheet steel. Well my 1930 roadster weighs that much. A coupe might weigh a bit more with the steel roof sections.
skip.
FWIW -
I used to tow my Holder 14 with my 93 honda civic 2 door. I also used the civic to tow a 2000# uhaul from Kansas to NY, then turned around and drove back to Kansas to tow home the holder 14. The car did great. Yes, I had to plan my stops a little more carefully, and I didn't weave through rush hour traffic, but it did fine. My mileage dropped from 45+ to about 35, but no big deal. (Side note - I never did figure why my 93 civic got better mileage then the new hybrid civic. On a trip to Florida with 3 other guys we averaged 48mpg at 70!). I miss that car.....
I also drove a Hyundai Elantra that was rated for 3300#!!!! Amazing little car.
I think the key is to drive smart. Just because you tow with a large vehicle, doesn't mean you can forget common sense. I think you'll be fine with the Corolla. Save your money for the boat!
I now tow with a RAV-4 V-6, which has gobs of power. The only nice thing is I get the same mileage with or without the boat (about 26 on the highway).
Kevin
Mike H.
I towed my 16 with a Mitsubishi product powered by a 1.5 ltr. 4 cyl. engine with manual transmission. Short trips or long - never had any problem.
Ron
i have towed boats with many different vehicles and i have concluded the following. one rear drive is superior to front drive for two reasons. one it is stronger and less prone to failure. front drive cars of any make have much lighter duty hardware than even the smallest rear drive truck. two the tongue weight is tranfered to the drive wheels in a rear drive setup giving far better traction on the road. another thing i have learned is that an automatic transmission is far more reliable than a stick. newer 5 and six speeds use hydraulic actuated clutches. these are for the most part require less force to opperate but at a cost. because of their design they tend to slip normally. this makes for a smoother shift with less effort but it is hell on a boat ramp. i would suggest buying a small p/u with heavy duty cooling for both the engine and the transmission. a friend of mine who has been a mechanic for 30 years has always told me that if you stay within the limits of your vehicle you wont be sorry. try and make it do what it wasnt designed to do and you will pay in the end.
Skip,
Not a good idea to exceed the mfg's recommendation. If you get in an accident, then your insurance company
will just say NO... for you and who you hit.
NateD has it right. Buy a 1998 Suburban for $2500 and be done with these "crazy thoughts" if you want to get a Corolla.
I own a Sienna, and the gas milage IS worse than the Corolla, but I tow my CP19, or Jet Ski or Utility trailer with 2200 pounds of shingles
without issue, so for an all around vehicle (or shall we say that I only need ONE general vehicle).. I also have a Honda S2000 and it won't haul anything...
About ten years ago I was towing a 8,200 lb. sailboat (28 ft, long) with a Jeep Grand Cherokee Ltd. rated for 6,500 lbs. It worked just fine even in some pretty hilly country. The mileage was really bad but everything else was OK. I would not reccommend this for everyone but I would say do not get to hung up on what the mfg. or others say and make your own decisions based upon your experience with your tow vehicle. I would not doubt what was said about insurance if you get into an accident.
Jim
I towed my compac 16 across florida (from Cape Coral to Miami, 150 miles) with a car smaller then a corolla, a Scion XD to be exact. I also tow my 16 back and forth to the boat ramp which is over 20 miles away with no problem. It is an automatic transmission. The only upgrade I have done to the car is add new rims and wider tires for more traction, but I am sure you would be fine with the stock tires. Even at the steepest boat ramp, the little FWD car had plenty of power to pull the boat up the ramp, no problems, no slipping. Stopping is not a problem at all either. Use the corolla, you will be fine. Also, I should add that my car is not rated to tow in the USA....
Oh, when I tow I keep the car out of overdrive, much more responsive.
Good Luck
Thanks to everyone for your thoughts & opinions, on either side of the question... I'm still not quite sure which vehicle I'm going to get but I do think, sensibly driven, the Corolla (Civic or Scion(?) will do what I'm looking to have done. Matt, I'm very interested in your towing with a Scion as I was (and now may still be...;-) looking at a Scion XB (the square station wagon looking one). Took one for a test drive and LOVED IT!!! To boot I didn't realize Scion is made by Toyota, can't seem to go wrong with any Toyota product. I started looking at the Corolla however after I couldn't find any towing documentation on the Scion. I finally asked the salesman to check into it for me if he wanted me to buy the vehicle, in particular if any warranties would be voided by towing. He called back later to report the service dept. did advise warranties will be voided for engine or transmission problems if it's obvious you've been towing. I'd remove your towing assembly before turning car in for warranty work... The funny thing is the Scion XB has a larger engine and more horsepower than the Corolla, the salesman said the XB model is built off the Camry platform. Matt, I'm curious, where did you get your tow hitch assembly for your Scion? I may have to give that XB another look...
Thanks again everyone...
Mike
Every morning going to work I pass a M-B Smart Car for what, 20k? going the other way. I have to fight the urge not to pull into it's lane for a head on at highway speed. I just want to smooch it!! Really. These people are not saving Al Gore's world. Not when each 80cc scooter polutes as much as 5 full sized SUV's for ever minute both are running. skip.
Mike,
I have the scion XD, which is the smallest of the Scions. It has a very similar powerplant when compared with a Corolla, but with a smaller transmission I think. The funny thing is it says the scion XD isn't rated to tow, yet it has all the necessary holes pre-drilled from the factory to literally bolt on a tow hitch. All I had to do was put on 6 bolts and my tow hitch was on, no drilling. Now the Scion XB, if its the newer one, it will have no problem towing the 16. If i'm not mistaken it has a 2.4L engine when compared to my scions 1.8L engine and also bigger brakes.
I got my Tow hitch for the Scion online, just type into google "Scion XB Tow Hitch" and check out the results. For my XD it said "No Drill" hitch, so i'm guessing the XB should have the same. I know they make them because I have seen Scion XB's towing jet ski's and small boats all over Miami.
By the way, it should be noted that I get around 28 MPG while towing... Hope this helps you out!
Skip, I also hate smart cars. They are essentially useless....My small scion gets similar gas milage and I dont have to put premium gas in the tank, which actually makes my car more cost effective, not to mention I can fit 5 people in it and still tow a boat......
I do not think that hp or transmixer is the problem as much as the brakes might be for the Scions.
We have a friend who drives one and they sped up to 94 mph going to Green Bay just for s & g's.
skip. For gas? Any swill will do?
Mike, I've been hauling mine for 2 years with a corolla. Everything seems fine, always check breaks...but other than that concentrate on the sailing stuff...much more enjoyable. Don't sweat the small stuff...and it's all small stuff.
Tim
On the other end of the scale... I towed my 16/3 with a Ford Ranger all summer. Towing capacity 3500 lbs and though I was aware of the trailer when braking the Ranger handled the ramps and highway like there was hardly anything back there. I think braking should be your main concern... I don't know how it will go for you if you have to stop real fast. Though the Ranger was doing a bang up job as a tow vehicle she was aging and the wife and I decided to trade her in last weekend. Minnesota winters and towing my sailboat were in the forefront of my mind so we only looked at 4WD vehicle that could handle at least as much as the Ranger did. We ended up buying a 2009 Nissan Xterra. Like I said, we are on the over kill end of the scale as the Xterra can haul 5,000 lbs. No breeze in Minneapolis this morning but the forcaste for tomorrow is for winds 10-15 so I'll be giving the new rig a maiden run in the morning. Can't wait to see how it handles.
I believe towing should be done with a vehicle that is designed to do so. Scion XB's certainly have enough power to pull it (my wife's Scion tC certainly does), but can it stop consistently and quickly when you need it? As for transmissions, Toyota transmissions are very stout on every model--they rarely fail. I wouldn't worry about the transmission or engine. Actually the drivetrain (CV joints, axles, splines) and rear suspension will get the most abuse.
Guess what I'm saying is if you tow with an economy car, do be very careful and leave plenty of room to stop and turn!! Keep in mind with weight on the hitch, your vehicle is no longer balanced. The front is light and the rear is heavy. This means your steering and front brakes (over 80% of overall stopping power) are reduced. Throw in some rain and it can get dicey. Also you may want to check with your insurance company about towing liability on any given car you buy. I would hate to see you be liable for an accident--that could be devasting financially. Not to mention taking out a family on your way to the lake would be terrible.
What kickinbug said about front wheel drive is absolutely correct. Be prepared for some tire slipping at the ramp and shorter lived components (brake pads, brake rotors, brake fluid, CV joints). And also definitely keep up on maintenance, especially coolant and transmission fluid changes.
What about a Subaru Impreza? I think they can tow a fiar amount and have AWD and are reliable cars. But they are not $13K either.
I tow with a 2005 Toyota 4runner sport V8 with all wheel drive. It will haul 8300lbs but you'll never see me try that.
Yes, overkill for the CP16--a Ford ranger or S10 pickup is plenty. But the 4runner is just right for a CP19 or CP23. And of course great for the winter (all wheel drive is da bomb), camping in the outback, and hauling stuff from Home Depot. Day to day I drive an MR2 which has a 400lb weight limit (2 seater only). It hauls nothing but does haul a**.
Breaking is key...
My Toyota Sienna van dows our CP19 just fine. The only place where I had concerns was on a back
road in Maine with a 55MPH limit. Going downhill at 50 and [Ma and Pa Kettle] decide to stop at
a yard sale.. The problem is that they stopped in the street while they decided where they would
put the car. My luck star did not have a car coming in the other direction so I took the other side of the road
otherwise we would have had a mess. I was several cars of room but missed their back bumper by meer inches.
and then I changed my shorts.
The van is quite stout but that certainly made me better aware of the dangers of towing
with lighter vehicles...
The Cp19 stays in Maine now so instead of getting a 250 mile trip each way, it is now about 2 miles from a friend's
barn to the water....
priceless...
Mike,
Your kidding right !
I just bought a new 2009 Toyota Corolla and cant believe you would even consider towing anything with it much less launch and retrieve a boat on a ramp.
Save your self a lot of troubles, buy new or used tow vehicle that matches your towing problem.
Glenn B.
Bob Burgess (Handbook of Trailer Sailing) used a Pinto to drive around his CP 16. he was worried at first about manufacturer rating, but found out one of the compac employees drove their CP16 also with a Pinto. I yanked mine out of the mud a couple days ago with my 84 VW Vanagon, no problem.
Bob
1988 CP 16/2
Cosmos
I drove a pinto wagon in the 70s..
You had to have a death wish to drive them. The only good thing about
the pinto is that when you got hit, the car exploded and you had an instant
crematorium... If there were pieces not burnt up, then just crushed the car around you
and called it a coffin.
Driving a (pinto) -or- (towing a cp19 or 23 ) have the same level of desperation...
I also drove several Corvairs (and towed a 14' crestliner power boat) in the 60/70s!
I would take the Corvairs any day in the snowstorms with snow tires...
I also had a Corvair in the 60s, with a hitch. Worked just fine until one day in W. Texas I was launching a fishing boat and a friend who was along (and also drove a Volkswagen, with the reverse gear in a different spot) jumped in the Corvair to pull it out. Well, we launched both, of course.
I probably would still be standing there trying to figure out what to do had it not been for a farmer who witnessed the entire fiasco and simply came over with his tractor, pulled out the car, told me to turn the key on and put it in second gear, and proceeded to drive around the car (and me) until the engine pumped out the water and started!
Great car for that, if nothing else. But to this day, I get nervous backing sailboats down ramps!
Jett
I'm not sure what the weights of the various boats and trailers are, but one should not really tow anything that weighs more than the truck or cars rated capability - especially for a longer trip at higher speeds. And it's a lot more than having the torque or horsepower needed to climb the next hill. The real factors include what the vehicles frame or uni-body can safely handle, the capacity of the tow vehicle brakes, the load that the axles, suspension and tires can safely carry, etc. Put too much weight behind you and watch the automatic transmissions fluid temperature go well above 220 or so - and that will shorten its life by years.
Also remember that the tongue weight on the back of the tow vehicle is acting like a see-saw. 400 pounds several feet behind the vehicles rear axle could remove 200 pound from the front (and move it to the rear). The front brakes are doing less work and steering could get light. Thats the primary reason why some front wheel drive vehicles will slip and slide on many boat ramps. Less weight over the drive wheels means less traction.
Weight distributing hitches work very well with fairly heavy trailers. I wouln't bother with a 2,000 pound trailer back there, but as it gets heavier it's beneficial to move some of that tongue weight to the vehicles front axle. Note that many of the advertised towing capacities are based on using this kind of hitch.
Back in the day, we owned a 1985 Corolla. It had trouble towing itself around let alone any kind of trailer. If you had the AC on, it seemed that a spark plug wire had become unplugged. To accelarate safely, you had to switch the AC off! Great car, though.
Fast forward, my daugher has a 2005 'Rolla...incredibly fast, handles great and seems to withstand her inability to ignore car maintenance...at least for the present.
For years, I towed a 5 x 10 contruction trailer with my 1987 Toyota pickup. 5 speed. Real slow but she would run forever. The old long stroke 22R engine; one of thier best. I had a few tense moments trying to brake in the rain...you really couldn't. So while the truck would pull it, it was too much to try to stop.
Faster forwarder: I now drive a 2001 Tundra, pulls my CP23 with no problemo, and my 7 x 16 dual axle construction trailer. Both have brakes.
Me, being a belt-and-suspender kind of guy, would rather have a bit of overkill any day. Why tow with something that just barely does the job? Sure, I had my VW's back in the day (14 of 'em) and drove them anywhere. But I'd never tow with one.
I don't like front wheel drive cars anyway. Especially when towing. All that positive weight on the rear equals more negative weight on the front. Altahough, years ago I saw an old codger pull out a large boat (can't remember which one) from a ramp with an original style Plymouth Voyager. Seemed effortless and defied logic. No wheelspin at all. I had to pinch meself to make sure I wasn't dreaming! I wasn't.
Ok, enough about that,
Bob23 out
Bob,the Plymouth Voyager probably had the standard 318 h.p. engine, I had several cares with that engine, one of the best ever produce......Phil
No Phil, that original voyager had a Chrysler built four cylinder or a Mitsubishi's built straight six IIRC. Vehicle was front wheel drive only, with transverse mounted engine. I had an '87 model. Neither engine was worth a flip in my view. Surprised it didn't pull in two trying to drag a big boat out.
The 318 was a good engine, family had a number of dodge trucks with that engine.
Frank 2
Frank, right engine.....wrong model, thanks for correcting me.......this is one of the reasons I have no faith in "oral history".......listening to my brother-in-law recount events of the past, ........Phil
Yeah, guys. I believe this particular Voyager had the four banger. I was amazed it pulled a boat out of the ramp but the world is full of wonders if we just open our eyes to see, eh?
Bob23
There is no substitute for cubic inches, or cubic centimeters. The more air/fuel mixture crammed into the combustion chamber [usually by careful porting and a lot of valves] and the faster those burned and unburned hydrocarbon emissions are out of that chamber and the more heat generated the more hp will be produced. Look at Jeep. A 4.? something liter, naturally aspirated churn and tons of torque.
Dad's Star Boat...
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/StarKnockDown001.jpg)
...sitting on a four wheel converted truck frame with draw bar steering was pulled away with a 4 cylinder flathead Nash Metropolitan. Parting words, "Good Luck Stopping Junior."
skip.