1
I have found on smaller boats that it doesn't take much to heat the cabin. I find that reading for about a half hour or so with a candle lantern is often enough to warm things up to being comfortable. I usually sail on Lake Superior well into October. If it is a really cold night, or if it is winter and I am working inside the cabin, I will place a clay pot upside down on the stove and heat that up for a few minutes. The clay pot once warm stays warm for awhile and heats up the cabin quite comfortably and it only takes a few minutes.
I would really like to try one of these. Origo alcohol heater, works just like one of their stoves. Alcohol is a pretty safe fuel to have on board. $140 seems resonable to extend the season.
(http://www.defender.com/large/900712_l.jpg)
link to heater at Defender (http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C406%7C1066337%7C1066189&id=48897)
Hi David,
I've been using the Origo Heat Pal heater/stove for more than a decade now. Circulating the heat with one of the cabin fans really speeds warming in our 23.
Ernie (Molly, 23/II 1984)
When on dock an electric catalytic ceramic heater with thermostat and a infinitely variable fan. Works great. Nothing like sitting inside the Com Pac 19 with the snow coming down and all your winter gear piled up on the vee birth. All comfy and all knowing that in a few days she gets pulled and put in dry unheated storage in a few days for six months.
skip.
Good to hear the Origo heaters work for you guys, thanks. Think I'll get one for Pooka.
Check it out! You can pay $7.00 for a quart of alcohol. Buy it by the gallon; it's $4.00. (4 qts. to a gallon)
I've never bought alcohol from a marine dealer. Always get it from the hardware store for about 1/4 of the price and it burns just fine.
Any combustion heating source should have a CO detector in the cabin also.
I have an oil lamp hung on my compression post but always have a hatch or two open to combat CO2.
skip.
I'm scared of fire, so tend to just add clothing instead of heating the cabin. Use battery lantern for night-time reading below. However, if I use my oil lamps, I usually have the hatchboards out and hatch open, kind of defeats the idea of warming the cabin! I agree with the ventilation and CO detectors. I would also add a fan to help the CO move out the open vents/hatches. Combustion also adds moisture to the boat, leading to problems with mold/mildew. Remember, CO can get you dead very fast and very peacefully. If you have a headache and you're using a combustion heater, GET OUT FAST!!!!!
Noted; and the time it takes for the body to rid it'self of CO2 is far greater then the time to 'take in' oxygen. That's why so many people who are removed from a CO2 enriched atmosphere die, even with an oxygen mask on. The body just can't get rid of the CO2 fast enough. But as stated the CO2 is absorbed toot-sweet! Faster then oxygen.
skip
"Combustion also adds moisture to the boat, leading to problems with mold/mildew. Remember, CO can get you dead very fast and very peacefully. If you have a headache and you're using a combustion heater, GET OUT FAST!!!!! "
True. For every 1,000,000 btu's burned about 100 lb of water vapor is added to the atmosphere.
And why when baking water based paint say on steel I-beams in a direct gas fired bake oven for instance a dry cold winter's day will require less btus then a hot humid day. On humid days like this the bake oven exhaust fan is kicked up a bit and removes more oven atmosphere to the atmosphere. Need to rid the oven of the water vapor from combustion before the baking of water born paint.
Also why water drips from the car/truck exhaust pipe.
In the atmosphere around the globe is 700 trillion-billion tons of water vapor. What we call clouds. It never increases nor decreases but meerly circulates around the planet. Some places are dry, some are perfect and some are wetter. No big deal.
skip.
Dave,
Use a solar heater - works especially well in the Keys - plus you get a great water view as well. It's a win/win.
Ron
I wired my boat up this year. I think I'm going to buy one of these from harbor Freight and give it a try next spring.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96144
In the Sept/Oct 2009 issue of Good Old Boat magazine, there are two articles of interest:
First, on page 14 is an article on the installation of a Dickinson Marine wood stove installed in a Pearson 28. Very interesting and you can't beat the smell and sound of a wood fire.
Second, on page 33 is very informative writeup about deadly vapors that we may find on our boats. It touches on marine CO detectors and the dangers of CO poisoning.
As some of us know, this magazine is wonderful. Although they seem to concentrate on larger ships than ours (mine?) it always has usable information and lately they've been touching on smaller boats like ours. Henry C did a great article on the Compac 19 in the same issue.
Bob23...just my 2 cents...again
I picked up a Coleman BlackCat catalytic propane heater but haven't tried it in the cabin yet. Should be plenty to take the chill out though. It uses the same propane canisters that the Magma kettle grill use. I don't keep the canisters stored in the cabin though but in a propane locker (made from 4" PVC) that is attached to the swim ladder.
Shawn
Rough calculation says your battery would run it for about 4 hours. Reserve Capacity (RC) of 120 minutes @ 25A, that heater pulls 13 amps, so it should last about 240 minutes, I think. I'm no electrical expert.
If you're only on the water for one night and you wake up at 3am freezing cold, running the heater full blast for an hour would likely keep the cabin warm (enough) until morning and leave more than enough battery for the lights and GPS.
Quote from: dserrell on October 21, 2009, 07:14:00 PM
Looks like a good heater but it's surely going to drain your sailboats's battery(s). If there is any way to find out how quick it will drain your sailboat's battery I'd find out?
We have a marine deep cycle battery, i.e. 550CCA RC120 @25A, and I believe that heater would pull the battery down in a matter of hours! My 2 cents! Good luck!
David
romei, on anything 'driven' by a battery be mindful that a battery is nothing more then a vessel to provide a chemical reaction within that vessel...as the temperature of the battery drops to 32 deg F the chemical reaction decreases to 1/2 the rating of 70 deg F....although the popular belief is that batteries are storage batteries, they do not store anything...the chemical reaction occurs as the circuit is completed.
There is no free lunch when energy is concerned. The opposite of energy is entropy...the nature of molecules to loose all energy. To stop moving if you will. It is not possible in physics to renew this loss. An alternative source is only possible.
skip.
Quote from: skip on October 22, 2009, 07:00:09 AM
romei, on anything 'driven' by a battery be mindful that a battery is nothing more then a vessel to provide a chemical reaction within that vessel...as the temperature of the battery drops to 32 deg F the chemical reaction decreases to 1/2 the rating of 70 deg F....although the popular belief is that batteries are storage batteries, they do not store anything...the chemical reaction occurs as the circuit is completed.
There is no free lunch when energy is concerned. The opposite of energy is entropy...the nature of molecules to loose all energy. To stop moving if you will. It is not possible in physics to renew this loss. An alternative source is only possible.
skip.
All good information there Skip, but I'm not real sure what it means or why it matters. To me, that's just over complicating information that rattles around my head and leaks out my ear.
I simply wired up some running lights and installed a power inverter to blend the occasional margarita and charge my GPS/Marine radio. It charges with a 10W solar panel that I mounted on the lazerette and so far, it works real nice. My Compac is only a 16 so if I run that heater in that tiny cabin, it'll prolly only be for a few minutes at a time. I use that boat for day sailing. I've never overnighted in it yet and prolly never will..
I am learning quite a bit from this thread though, as I have a 19' Alacrity with a much larger cabin that I will be using for weekend adventures and at some point will prolly want some heat. I doubt though that I'd put a separate heater on board. I'd prolly just fire up the galley stove for a few minutes at a time and then at night, sleep in a good quality sleeping bag. :-D
Quote from: romei on October 22, 2009, 09:26:31 AM
I am learning quite a bit from this thread though, as I have a 19' Alacrity with a much larger cabin that I will be using for weekend adventures and at some point will prolly want some heat. I doubt though that I'd put a separate heater on board. I'd prolly just fire up the galley stove for a few minutes at a time and then at night, sleep in a good quality sleeping bag. :-D
When you fire up the galley stove for a few minutes place a terra cotta flower pot upside down over your burner (as long as it doesn't heat up your stove fuel !!! if it does, place it right side up) these are the cheap clay flower pots available for under $10 at most places that sell plants. The clay pot will heat up from the stove and continue to radiate heat long after you have turned off the stove.
SAILING FRIENDS, BEING AN OLDER AND WISER MAN, I HOPE, ANY OF YOU USING A PROPANE HEATER WOULD SERIOUSLY CONSIDER NOT USING ONE IN ANY SMALL SPACE, SUCH AS A CABIN. THE RISK, UNDER THE BEST OF VENTILATION IS TO GREAT AND HAVING LOST PEOPLE I KNOW FROM FUMES IN ICE SHEDS AND HUNTING CABINS I WOULD HATE SEE ANY OF YOU NOT WAKE .
DAVID, REALLY NOT ANY GOOD ANSWERS I WOULD BE HAPPY WITH. OF COURSE AT THE DOCK WITH ACCESS TO POWER , ELECTRIC HEAT, EXPENSIVE BUT RELATIVELY SAFE. WE USED TO USE A SMALL ALCOHOL STOVE TO COOK WITH AND TAKE THE CHILL OFF, BUT ONLY USED WHILE WIDE AWAKE. IT IS SURPRISING HOW LITTLE HEAT IS REQUIRED IF DRESSED PROPERLY TO MAKE IT COMFORTABLE. THEN THERE IS THE OLD BOY SCOUT TRICK OF" CANDLE IN A COFFEE CAN "HEATER...........PHIL
Quote from: nies on October 22, 2009, 02:10:43 PM
THEN THERE IS THE OLD BOY SCOUT TRICK OF" CANDLE IN A COFFEE CAN "HEATER...........PHIL
I was never a boy scout but what a grand idea, and perfect for a boat the size of a CP16.
Thanks Nies!
A little different tack on this subject. My 23 will not come out of the water this winter and I'll probably do some sailing on the better days. What I need is freeze and humidity protection while I'm gone. Our winters are relatively mild, however we will get quite a few nights and a few days with temperatures below freezing. I have shore power and am wondering what I might leave in the cabin that is safe and effective to prevent any water in the tank from freezing and generally keep the interior dry.
I've seen these small 115 volt dehumidifiers that I believe just put out a constant heat maybe about 300 watts output. Wonder if that would be enough.
As for comfort heating, my last boat (Columbia 8.7) had an oil lamp that would take the chill off. Took a while to warm it up but eventually comfortable enough to be in the cabin with the gloves and coat off. This was upper Gulf Coast, so not that big a deal.
Frank
I heat the suncat with a candle lantern hung from the cabin roof.
David,
"But your exactly right, propane and it's byproduct carbon monoxide are very dangerous"
In a room with good ventilation the *catalytic* propane heaters actually produce fairly low amounts of CO so the risks of CO buildup are lower. Efficient burning of propane just results in carbon dioxide and water vapor. Carbon Mono-oxide is when you have incomplete combustion.
The catalytic converters are very efficient in normal air that has about 20% O2 levels. When you are in an enclosed area without decent ventilation (to recover the O2 burned in the heater) the O2 level will drop and the efficiency of the catalytic converter drops as well which means the CO output increases.
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:mWwJyCGKFTgJ:www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOIA05/os/CO03.pdf+catalytic+Propane+Heaters&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShxj0Xsc3gh0T7HboHM0tpAlbw7-5C9ltX3mpFrUERwitlDdEcHfizMwI96piaeGkV4dxmpvNLydlgw3Jp9ksdxgj8pfnrqJ37kUtT7OH5M5c3tpzW88Fq07ST2zUa4itPVV0G5&sig=AFQjCNFhyqV58zKX_s5SzXfcO_IMNKrpQg (http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:mWwJyCGKFTgJ:www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOIA05/os/CO03.pdf+catalytic+Propane+Heaters&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShxj0Xsc3gh0T7HboHM0tpAlbw7-5C9ltX3mpFrUERwitlDdEcHfizMwI96piaeGkV4dxmpvNLydlgw3Jp9ksdxgj8pfnrqJ37kUtT7OH5M5c3tpzW88Fq07ST2zUa4itPVV0G5&sig=AFQjCNFhyqV58zKX_s5SzXfcO_IMNKrpQg)
Shawn
Interesting idea with the generator, Dave.
There are 12 volt electric heaters available and if a second battery were install and designated only for the heater, that battery could be recharged with one of those cool, small and quiet Honda 1000 or 2000 watt generators. I've been dying to find a reason to buy one...this could be my ticket! Sounds like the safest way to go and storing the gereator and gasoline isn't a big deal.
I don't like the idea of any non-venting combustion heater in a small space. Technically speaking, in a confined space even a candle doesn't burn very clean. Although our boats are not airtight, to say the least.
I wonder how long a small 12 heater would run before running the battery down to the point that it wouldn't power the heater any longer? Deep cycle battery sounds about right or even better, 2 golf cart batteries.
Bob23
DAVID I BELIEVE THERE ARE BARBIE DOLL CANDLES AVAILABLE..........PHIL
DAVID, YOU ARE RIGHT, I DONT KNOW WHAT I WAS THINKING!!!!!!..........PHIL
SHAWN said, "the *catalytic* propane heaters actually produce fairly low amounts of CO so the risks of CO buildup are lower."
I say don't you believe it.
Lets define combustion.
For lack of better terms known to only combustion engineers, I shall be inaccurate in proper jardin.
A fuel contains btu's. Give or take...187,000 btu/gallon gasoline. 260,000 btu/gallon diesel. 2800 btu/cuft propane, 1000 btu/cuft natural gas. 3412 btu/kw for you electric guys, ect. You know why a diesel gets more miles per gallon then gas? More btu's/gallon. Not more efficient...I digress. Sorry.
During combustion where btu's combine with oxygen to make heat we understand co2 and water [and about 300 other biproducts that one can forget about] is given off as a by product of combustion.
That's a good thing. Without these bi products there would be no heat. No chemical reaction.
The formation of aldehyde's [unburned fuel] occurs when there is not quit enough heat to burn the fuel completely and the fuel molecule carries a few extra oxygen molecules with it. The 'mix' has not been chemically cracked yet. If you will.
When a cold burner is first started up or turned on incomplete combustion occurs. Given enough aldehyde's, the eyes will water and burn a bit till things get rolling proper like and complete combustion occurs. You kind of forget that your still making co2. "It don't stink anymore".
Here is where *catalytic* heaters shine...or glows...in the complete burning and therefore destruction of the fuel and the best possible combination of oxygen and fuel to make as much btu's as possible with as little a fuel usage as possible. The combustion can never be 100% in physics and will always make co2, that deadly gas.
This simply takes the partly burned 'mix' and re burns the 'mix' again using fresh 'mix'. Therefore raising the combustion temperature. Or as understood, catalyicizing as much fuel as possible through recirculating. The ceramic stone or glass wool used at the burner's surface never 'sees' flame but creates infrared waves of energy as well as heat. Infrared is interesting. Heat without heat.
Just like on cars and trucks fitted with ,*catalytic* converters or paint bake-off ovens fitted with a direct gas fired afterburner that raises the 750 deg F oven effluents temperature to 1300 deg F for half a second to destroy all the smoke and fumes and VOCs [volatile organic compounds] from the burned off coatings at the very best efficiency.
Large scale *catalytic* 15 ton vessels of ceramic pellets heated to 2500 deg F to destroy the effluents from automotive paint lines using direct gas fired industrial MAXON or ECLIPSE Air Heaters from 500,000 btu's to 25,000,000 btu's are common in the industry.
Btu's are always in hours BTW. The biggest contributor to unburned hydrocarbon emissions world wide are the home furnaces, even now with 80 or so % efficiency. Not industry heat requirements. If industrial burners were 80% efficient, nobody could afford to turn them on. Sorry I digress again. As you can see it takes energy to burn fuel clean.
In the world of industrial paint-powder and liquid curing-bake ovens infrared tends to heat the surface but does nothing to impinge heat into the substrate. Air blown [impinged] onto the work is needed to heat the substrate. Few coatings can cure in and tollorate just infrared, other coatings will never dry or cure with just infrared.
Kind of like going to the beach. It's a cold day. But sunny. You never got warm, only had goosebumps, but went home with a sunburn. That's infrared.
To finish. A combustion situation having just barely enough oxygen to support burning, and nothing more, is called stokeyometric, a very dirty, smoky combustion, full of aldehyde's, and generally a very cold combustion. To combat this burners are designed with a 20% excess of oxygen to assure complete burning. Think of a diesel when it is first started up. The heat of compression barley gets the job done till she's warmed up and quits puffing grey smoke...once she's burning black were OK.
So "the *catalytic* propane heaters actually produce fairly low amounts of CO so the risks of CO buildup are lower."
I don't think so.
I think these catalytic burners burn up as much oxygen as possible, and by doing this they burn hotter and cleaner, and make infrared energy as well as 'heat' and that allows for a smaller fuel consumption, a smaller burner btu and hence a smaller burner size but LESS oxygen for human consumption in the products of combustion. So please crack a hatch and let in some fresh air.
Automotive solvent destruct equipment...one of many different ways. What I used when I engineered the burn-off of body carriers for the Pontiac Fiero paint line. Body carriers become coated with over spray and then fail to go to ground when using electrostatic guns on robots.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/copro1.jpg)
A more important question is...WHY DON"T WE SELL AND BUY 'ENERGY' BY THE BTU? no matter what the form.
skip.
Oil burners produce a flame that radiates heat not at the tip of the flame but rather around the circumference of the flame. A 'bushy' fire if you will. Natural gas fires a thin narrow flame where the tip of the flame is the hotest. Gas ribbon air heater burners have a long but short flame and cover many foot in length. The air blower ducts air through the mixing plates heating the air and delivering it to the building or oven.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/180_maxon_APX.jpg)
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/93423_11142006796_ExhibitPic_thumb.jpg)
Pictures of an air heater, a gas fired flame, and an oil fired flame, and another ribbon burner having no air blowen through it.
Any flame can heat direct or indirect. If direct you must have, by law, exhaust equal to the burner scfm output so you don't kill everybody in the plant. Air make-up units I'm talking about.
After Dad retired to Boca Raton, Florida his monthly electric bill was divided up into so many days that electricity was purchased by the electric company in which the juice was made from burning...
1. coal~The cheapest.
2. Natural gas~Second cheapest.
3. Hydro~Third cheapest.
4. Nuclear~The most expensive. [Because of a fund set aside to decommission the generating plant].
5. Wind~Was not available. Not renewable either. Depends on the sun's heat to move air.
6. Bio-Mass~A lot of stinky weeds degassing. Then capture, purify and burn the gas. I don't think so.
7. Solar~More sun power. Not available at the time? Cloudy day, no sun...what then? What about night? Batteries?
Just some thoughts.
skip.
"I say don't you believe it."
I posted the actual real world data testing of the heater.
"The combustion can never be 100% in physics and will always make co2, that deadly gas."
CO2 is not a deadly gas. That is carbon dioxide... that stuff your exhale all the time. Your body is very good at shedding CO2.
CO is the deadly gas because it binds with your blood, in place of O2, and your body is very bad at getting rid of CO in your blood. That is why over time it builds up in your blood lowering your O2 sats
"A combustion situation having just barely enough oxygen to support burning, and nothing more, is called stokeyometric, a very dirty, smoky combustion, full of aldehyde's, and generally a very cold combustion. "
Do you mean stoichiometric? Stoichiometric mixture is the perfect air:fuel ratio for whatever fuel you are burning that results in the most complete combustion.
"So please crack a hatch and let in some fresh air."
Agreed, that is why I posted that when the O2 level of the air decreases the CO output of the catalytic heater increases because the mixture is thrown off (from stoichiometric) and you get less complete combustion resulting in more CO output.
Shawn
Yea your right. But I don't care too much about the misspeak between co2 and co. Your quote below confusses me.
"CO2 is not a deadly gas. That is carbon dioxide... that stuff your exhale all the time. Your body is very good at shedding CO2."
But if I put a bag over my head, aren't I going to assume room temperature pretty soon? My sister-in-law did when she committed suicide.
However yes I could not figure out how to spell Stoichiometric, but regardless in order to burn clean and hotter a burner is designed to have an excess of approximately 20% excess air and that prevents the formation of aldehyde.
Stoichiometric has just enough 'air' to burn the fuel and no more. In theory it may be perfect in pratice it's dirty.
So speaking of trees, co2 in and oxygen out...so where does the carbon go? It stays in the trees...me thinks.
Build a power plant. Plant a forest anywhere on earth, since the entire atmosphere circulates around the globe.
China has 2800 steel mills running and none have any pollution equipment on the stacks. India has 3 steel mills. India's 3 out produce all of China's combined. America has five to six steel mills limping along at a highly reduced capacity. So much so that our taconite fleet of ten~1000 footers in the Great Lakes stayed in harbor all this last summer. And may not set sail next summer either. But at least our stacks are clean...
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/footers-2-01dl.jpg)
Boat on the left is in the dry dock. She is not ballasted down.
thanks. skip.
Here's some other thoughts entirely.
I an avid camper and motorcycle touring rider. These two activities often occur in cooler weather.
Here are a few products I've found that take the bite off the cold that are safe and afforable. None actually heat the cabin but they heat your body.
First, Thermocare Back warmers. They are essentially a thin cloth with chemicals contained that activate upon exposure to air that wrap around your body like a kidney belt.
Two of them are about $7 retail at your local pharmacy in the sports medicine section. Less on sale. I've tried CVS brand, but they do not work as well and are less comfortable.
Each lasts about 7-8 hours. They are very effective at warming your blood which of course circulates to keep your entire body warm.
There are no fumes at all and they are comfortable to wear. No cords, no CO, no battery use and no explosive fluids/gasses. You've probably seen smaller versions that go in your boots, but those are not very effective.
Second, Jon-E hand warmers. They are naptha (zippo fluid) powered heaters designed to hold in your hand. Each charge lasts about 4 hours for the small units.
Each charge is about 2 ounces of fluid which would cost about $.60 per charge. They do produce some fumes but very small amounts and little CO. And they do get very very hot. They have small pouch that insulates your hand from the heat. They work fanastic for things like football game spectators, hunting, camping, etc.
Again same principle..warms your blood and keeps the chill off. They do require a little work to get them going (about 3 minutes). I've found they are very safe.
As you must hold on to them, they may not be thebest choice for piloting a boat. The units are very solid and should last a lifetime. They have two sizes, the small one is adequte.
They are about $18, a $4.00 can of zippo fluid should give you roughly 6 or 7 uses.
As for propane radiant heaters, I use them to warm my tent and articles in the tent. I heat up the tent an hour or two before bed time and turn them off prior to turning in for th night. And vent the tent a little before turning in. Great for dryng and heating but yes definitely do not use these in confined spaces with you within that space.
I'll be using the jon-e tonight for a community festival in the 55 degree temps today. It will keep me toasty.
lastly, i use a heated vest on the motorcycle. THey ROCK!!! They use 3-6 amps depending inthe model. Again, they heat you, not the area. On the MC I've riden in 45 degree temps all day in comfort. I use a thermostat controller to limit the heat output and in the case of boating to save your battery. If anyone needs recommendations here, let me know (the vests are about $150, the controller about $70)
AFTER FOUR PAGES, AS MY MOTHER USE TO SAY "SIMPLE IS BEST, THATS WHY I MARRIED YOUR FATHER", THE CANDEL LANDERN IS THE BEST ANSWER, SIMPLE AND CHEAP, AND IF NOT HAPPY WITH YOUR NOT OUT MUCH........PHIL
"But if I put a bag over my head, aren't I going to assume room temperature pretty soon? My sister-in-law did when she committed suicide."
Again, your body can get rid of CO2 easily assuming there is oxygen to replace it with. With CO that doesn't happen nearly as easily.
The CO binds to your blood and prevents its from being able to bind with O2 even if O2 is in the air. That is why it is deadly. It takes a long time for your body to shed CO.
As far as the bag over the head that is a different issue. Too much water will kill you, so will too much O2...etc...etc. That doesn't make either of them a poison. Google carbon monoxide poisoning.
"Stoichiometric has just enough 'air' to burn the fuel and no more. In theory it may be perfect in pratice it's dirty."
That is wrong.
Stoichiometric is the perfect/ideal air fuel ratio which burns the fuel as completely as possible with the least amount of emissions. That is the very definition of stoichiometric... check your dictionary. ( pertaining to or involving substances that are in the exact proportions required for a given reaction.)
For example stoichiometric AFR for gasoline is 14.7:1. You car will run at 17:1 AFR (lean) and at 10:1 AFR (rich) but your emissions are higher then at stoichiometric.
I know you will still doubt it so google it.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/stoichiometric-combustion-d_399.html (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/stoichiometric-combustion-d_399.html)
http://www.taftan.com/thermodynamics/COMBUST.HTM (http://www.taftan.com/thermodynamics/COMBUST.HTM)
Shawn
Shawn, I think what he meant by in theory it' perfect in practice it's dirty is yes ideally the ratio provides as complete combustion as possible with the perfect ratio between oxygen, hydrogen and other elements that provide the air portion of combustion and fuel but it's never achieved. Or rather is difficult to achieve across the operating range of any given thing that burns fuel. Even new fuel injected controlled vehicles are not perfect...somewhere along the way from idle to redline some waste is present because the computer's map. In the case of heaters, the fuel is relatively constant yet the air is not due to temp, altitude, humidty, etc.
Regardless of this debate or the efficiency level of one heater vs another, we do not want to be confined in an area with high amounts of CO or CO2.
Any fuel burning appliance will produce them.
Phil--Is one candle truly enough to warm a cabin of say a CP19? Interesting...I figured it not make a big difference. I can't imagine that would produce enough CO to kill you--assuming a small amount of ventilation which would be present always (hatchboard area as an example).
Salty16, ONE CANDLE LANDERN IS ENOUGH TO TAKE THE CHILL OFF A COOL SUMMER EVENING, BUT 72 DEGREES IT IS NOT. A LITTLE PLANNING WITH PROPER CLOTHES AND SLEEPING BAG AND YOU CAN BE COMFORTABLE IN A ICE CAVE. THE CABIN SQUARE FOOTAGE OF A CP16 IS REALLY VERY SMALL AREA TO HEAT. IF YOUR CABIN DOESNT HAVE A HULL LINER YOUR BODY NEEDS TO BE INSULATED FROM THE HULL.EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT IDEA OF PROPER TEMP., MY WIFE WILL SAY ITS HOT IN HERE, ILL SAY IS NOT, SHE WILL SAY IS SO, SO ITS HOT..........PHIL
Of course, it helps when you don't feel the cold that much like me. I'm still wearing shorts up here in NJ! As they say, no brain, no pain!
Bob23
BOB, YOU WOULD FIT RIGHT IN HAYWARD, WI. WENT TO TOWN YESTERDAY , 2 INCHS SNOW AND 32 DEGREES, AND PEOPLE WALKING AROUND MAIN STREET IN SHORTS, OH WELL, MUST HAVE BEEN TOURIST ,LOL.........PHIL
Okay, I think I got it. Let's do a recap....
A clay pot upside down on the stove will radiate heat long after the flame is gone
There are many liquid fuel fed heater options, all of which will kill you if you don't ventilate properly
Alcohol is anywhere from $4 to $30 a gallon
Never put a bag over your head unless you want your body to reach room temperature
In the atmosphere around the globe is 700 trillion-billion tons of water vapor (clouds)
Electric heaters are good as long as you have a good way to recharge the battery, which is just a vessel to provide a chemical reaction within that vessel.
A really cool way to store propane canisters is to build a locker out of 4" PVC and place it near the swim ladder
You can always take along a warm red-blooded female if you're willing to endure some undesirable side effects.
Boy scouts are smarter than sailors
BTU, CO and CO2 discussions can get angry and confusing
The proper way to spell stokeyometric is stoichiometric
Zippo hand warmers will come in real handy
Dry clothes and a warm sleeping bag are good things to have
Phil's wife is hot
After absorbing all of this I bought (2) 5 1/4 inch candle lanterns off Ebay for $12. How did I do?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290361589862
GREAT RECAP................YOU DID GREAT......PHIL
You guys are correct. I'm wrong. Good summation. When it's cold in the cabin stay home.
skip. Sorry I said anything.
My God Skip, there's nothing to be sorry about! It was a good spirited discussion full of many interesting facts that I think we all enjoyed and learned from. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone with my recap. I just tried to lighten the mood a little. But if I did offend anyone, I'm sorry.
In the end for me though, I think a few candle lanterns will do the trick in a cabin the size of a pup tent.
I just have to add to this discussion:
A few years back, a friend and fellow cross country skiier and I went on a 3 day XC ski trip to Lake Placid, NY. We were planning on camping in a lean-to, which we did. What I didn't know was that the temperature outside at night would go down to -20 degrees F. Now I like cold weather but that was redefining cold even for me. Here's how we stayed toasty warm at night:
We had some serious sleeping bags and just before bed, we'd boil lots of water, fill two 1 quart Nalgene bottles each, put 'em in the bags and it's off to sleep. Of course by morning the water was body temperature but we were sure toasty.
Interesting trip...met some Swedes who were staying in an igloo they had built so we learned about the proper construction of an igloo. One had an inside-outside thermometer with him and reported that, although it dropped to -20 degrees F, inside remained a balmy 30-32 degrees. Snow is a great insulator!
I suppose this has nothing to do with warming the cabin of our classy yachts but I felt like sharing this adventure with you guys.
By the way, I'd like to thank anyone reading this. I have learned and continue to learn so much on this site. The exchange of wisdom, information and experiences is wonderful.
I really feel like I know some of you guys...hope we can meet sometime and share a beer...or grog...or cheeseburger...or all of the above!
Bob23
We snow camped in BoyScouts and pulled our 'dog sled' of supplies for the weekend Klondike Boy Scouts Rally. What fun.
I had no idea that this post would have such long legs. I'm finished with it. Pick the battles you can win.
skip.
Interesting discussion. I am up in the PNW right next to Canada today, and it rains all day with the temp in the 40's. At dock I recommend an electric heater. I have a diesel gas heater for on the hook. But it is one of those designed for sailboats with forced air combusion outside of the cabin, then fresh air from another vent in pushed buy with a fan and heats the cabin. Even the candle lanterns- do not go to sleep with any combusion going on in your boat. After the last discussion I do not want to go into the physiology, but we as physicians have a really hard time saving your hind if your full of CO. So before you slip into your warm sleeping bag (as I will do tonight) TURN OFF EVERYTHING THAT IS NOT ELECTRIC!! Its worth it to wake up every morning with a clear head.
I won't have any problem heating my 16 for the next five months... It is easy, just heat the machine shed and the 16 will be perfect!
Quote from: fo48 on October 29, 2009, 06:23:54 PM
Hi David, heating my 16 when it's snowing will never be a problem. You are a true sailor!!
Frank
Going out for an overnight this coming week. Expected overnight low 39F. Planned heat method, storm candle until bedtime then 20 degree sleeping bags. Morning chill off will be butane stove perking the coffee with me wide awake.
More important to me is property protection heat when she's by herself at the marina. Probably get something like this for that:
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/245832/377%20710/?icid=RR_7867518
Kind of like hanging a light bulb in the pump house, southern freeze protection.
Frank
FRANK, BE SURE AND GIVE US A FULL REPORT ON YOUR ADVENTURE...........PHIL
Will do Phil, however, I don't expect much to report. This is a shakedown overnighter, first time on this SV. Just going up the lake a ways, enjoy the foliage and maybe check out the Eagle roosts. Admiral may or may not go, she has the annual church ladies club bazaar next weekend, might be too involved in the prep. Mainly to check systems for extended cruises. Mid week this time of year, should have the lake to myself, which is sad if you think about it.
Frank
I have seen those pancakes on other boats Frank. They seem to work well and don't use up too much electricity. I got a little electric space heater from Walmart. Don't recommend it yet, but will till you how it does after one season.
Has anyone used one of these?
http://www.summitcampinggear.com/coprpocahewi.html
http://www.summitcampinggear.com/cosppocahe.html
I thought it looked like it might safely do the job. They have a couple of smaller models that also looked like they would be plenty big enough for a C-16... I bookmarked the web site, just in case I ever get serious about spending a night on my 16. No immediate plans though, I really like my nice warm queen size bed right where I am.
Quote from: dserrell on October 31, 2009, 06:07:48 PM
Steve,
This is what we use! Works great!
David
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz160/dserrell/Heater.jpg)
Just remember it will still produce the bad stuff and use plenty of ventilation.
safe sleeping
May be worth the read. I found it interesting. It seems O2 levels vs CO levels are the real concern with catalytic heaters. Looks like you need to keep fresh air coming in and wouldn't want to use these things in a closed 16 cabin over night without fresh air coming in... Seems best not to trust them too much and go to sleep with them on.
http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOIA05/os/CO03.pdf
GOOD INFO STEVE, EVEN IF PARTS WERE A LITTLE TO TECH. FOR ME. I WOULD NEVER GO TO SLEEP WITH ANY HEATER, EXCEPT ELECTRIC. GOOD NEWS ABOUT A CANDLE IS IF "O" IS LOW THE CANDLE GOES OUT. ON THE LIGHT SIDE YOU COULD TAKE A CANARY WITH YOU, OF COURSE YOU WOULD BE DEAD ALSO ,SO WOULDNT WORK. PLEASE NEVER GO TO SLEEP WITH HEATERS RUNNING, NOT ONLY NOT A GOOD IDEA BUT A DEADLY ONE...........PHIL
We seem to go back and forth on this thread. A candle, as well as a catalytic heater, will use up the oxygen to such a low level that you would die before they go out. Nies has it right. CO will kill you even if you have enough oxygen in the boat, because hemoglobin attachs to the CO 60 times faster than it attaches to Oxygen and then does not release, suffocating your body .
Having seen people die of CO, lets just say I do not want you to do so. So just don't use a heater when you are sleeping, and if you find yourself getting sleepy- get out!
Good advice, all.
Men: If I could stay warm sleeping outside in a sleeping bag in minus 20 degrees with no external heaters, we can all do ok in our boats in anything above zero. And I doubt we'd be out in temperatures that cold. So, forget the heaters...invest in a good quality bag and wool socks, hat, and underwear, and sweaters, and you'll be warm as toast. I've been working outside for 30 years; I have my combination of clothes down to a science. Of course it helps that I don't mind or feel the cold like most people. It comes in handy when I have a greenhorn working who is freezing. "Aw...poor baby...momma didn't dress you right?" We are soooo mean! I love it.
Seriously, I've learned a lot reading this thread especially not to take CO poisoning lightly. I really didn't know all that much about the details so I'm greatful to you all.
I thought of doing something with foam insulation in the boat, just in case I end up living in it. Yep, the kind of foam insulation you get at Home Depot. Great stuff. One could almost build a cubicle out of it and stay toasty. One cold winter, we had to encase our air compressor in a foam box and put a light bulb in it. It wouldn't run in the cold.
Bob23
Bob my other boat (a valiant) has foam in the chain locker (great for dampening the noise) and below the berths. I think it works good if you can get enough of it in to make a difference. Sorry about my over zealousness, it comes from seeing too many deaths ( with a few from CO)
It's good to be overzealous about the truth. Some will listen...some won't. It's like seatbelts. My sister still refuses to wear 'em even though the statistics don't lie. Talk about hardheaded.
I just got home and waiting for me was the latest (and maybe last) edition of Practical Sailor. And whadaya thinks there on page 30 but a review on Navigator wood stoves. Pretty little things and one could almost fit one into a 23.
A while back we lived in a mobile home and installed a wood/coal stove, which we still have 29 years later. One of the few French made things I own, it's a Petite Godin. Anyway, we had to provide an outside source for the combustion air which wasn't a problem considering that I'm a amateur genius.
I guess in a boat one could do the same. Or leave a port open a bit.
But a wood stove has a vent and most of the discussion about CO poisoning here centers around ventless heaters.
The little Sardine Stove occupies about 1 cubic foot of space. A little green porcelain one would look great down in Koinonia's cabin. Trouble is, I don't do much winter sailing!
Bob23
Quote from: Bob23 on November 02, 2009, 05:23:22 PM
wasn't a problem considering that I'm a amateur genius.
Bob23
Quote of the month!
Made me laugh, not that I don't think you're a genius.
During my morning trip to the land-based head, I was reading the current "Messing About in Boats" and came across an article on the Navigator Stove Works "Sardine". A beautiful little woodstove, I'd love to install one in my 23! They can be found at www.marinestove.com...check 'em out.
An aside: The aforementioned magazine is a great little rag...one of the best buys out there. Unless you want color photos, glossy paper and lots of ads. Mr. Bob Hicks, editor, is my kind of guy...not afraid to speak his mind in his "Commentary" column, doesn't give a whit about being politically correct, has no website...heck- he doesn't even have an answering machine! But the magazine, "MAIB", has great articles, informative ads and is certainly not for folks who drink thier tea with pinkys sticking out. Not that anyone here does. But check out this magazine, friends. Again, this is no commercial endorsement.
Bob23...stay warm
Candle is used to heat up the cabin. It goes out with the lights. I never have the boat sealed in any way, Always have the solar vent fan running to exhange the air and the hatch boards have a vent grating in the top one. CO should not be a problem. Once the cabin is warm, it is time for bed. For that a good pair of winter rated sleeping bags work great.