I guess it depends on your preferences and how you use the boat, but I am having a hard time thinking of boat things were you can typically get away with buying the cheapest available, especially on a small boat. If it's on the boat, then I need it. Either I will be using it regularly and it will be receiving a lot of use and abuse, or it is backup parts/tools/safety equipment that I hope I won't have to use, but if I do need it, it probably means I'm in a trouble and will be glad I didn't pinch pennies while outfitting the boat.
Everything I get for the boat I can come up with a strong argument for buying good quality stuff either due to expected heavy use, or for safety reasons. I guess there are some comfort items (screens/hatches) that aren't necessary, but if you did install them, you would probably be able to justify a higher quality one (don't want the hatch leaking).
What items have you bought for the boat and consciously chose to buy a lower end product?
Not sure if this is considered "low end" but in outfitting my P23 I recently bought and installed a Ritchie compass at the lower end of the price scale, choosing to put more of my finite budget into the GPS. A compass has been relegated to back up status by the advent of very sophisticated GPS chartplotters, particularly for coastal cruising.
Being old enough to have made the sailing navigation transition from RDF/ADF to Loran to GPS, I would say that back in the beginning of that continuum I would have put relatively heavier bucks into the compass. In my early sailing days I relied on the compass and paper charts extensively, now it seams they are there in case the GPS fails.
I don't think my price point selection affects accuracy nor reliability over time, but some features are not there. It will get me home in a fog if necessary, that's what I want.
The previous owners of my boat, lake sailors, had installed neither a compass nor a GPS chartplotter.
I suppose this would qualify... but only in that I opted to pay less money for the product. I don't believe that I have compromised performance or safety in any way. The product I obtained is a quality product. I'm talking about my new sails. I could have gone with North Sails Direct and purchased a new main and a new 135 genoa for a total of $645.00. I saved $100 by going with National Sail Supply (Rolly Tasker). The dacron used in the North sails would have been heavier. The genoa was rated to 23 knots max apparent wind for instance... but if the apparent winds are 23 knots I won't be flying a 135 genoa anyhow. I'm sure the heavier dacron would last longer but I'm sure I can get at least ten years out of the sails I bought so I'd rather have the extra $100 for something else.
I am not sure I would willfully compromise on anything related to structure, systems, navigation or safety. I agree with Brackish that paper charts and compass are mostly used when the GPS fails. However, I would also add that there main purpose is actually to have a means to use coastal nav to check the GPS and find out when it fails or is inaccurate enough as not to deserve to be trusted. Also, a common cause of positioning error (of enough yards as to get a boat in the rocks) is to have the GPS set up to a horizontal datum different than the one used by the chart. My compromise is on things like dishware and glassware: I use Frisbees as plates (with obvious advantages when the plates start flying...) and mugs as cups... I also try to limit to a minimum the use of disposable stuff (which in the long run is anything but cheap). If I were to consider things that I have irretrievably lost at sea as an indicator that they better be replaced with cheap alternatives, I would have to include shades, hats, gloves, multi-tools, fenders, even shoes and, once, the rudder...
J.
Very interesting question...
I go cheap on service, in other words, I do the majority of repair myself.
I built my own sails from kits (but I bought the sewing machine as the investment) Combined it was a wash but I got one GREAT sewing machines for cushions, upholstery, you name it, it fixes it (8 layers of fabric on my friend's dodger...
I purchase screws, nuts, bolts from my local hardware store which has an extensive selection of
stainless screws, nuts, bolts etc.
I maintain the boat myself for two reasons... cheaper and I understand when off shore, how to fix it.
I went with hand held radio for compac but perminent radio with mast antenna on Cape Dory..
===
What do I not cheap out on?
PFD, safety items,
Books, manuals, magazines
Quote from: Joseph on August 26, 2009, 01:07:35 PM
If I were to consider things that I have irretrievably lost at sea as an indicator that they better be replaced with cheap alternatives, I would have to include shades, hats, gloves, multi-tools, fenders, even shoes and, once, the rudder...
That's a good one that I hadn't thought of. I bought a 12 pack of sunglasses for $15 off ebay and my sailing hat was $2 at SHOPKO. Figured they would either be broken, dropped overboard, blown off my head, or lost in an accidental dunking at some point, so I went as cheap as I could. I also got a $3 multi-tool as a backup if my regular knife, screw drivers, or pliers goes over. I added "cheap goggles" to my shopping list yesterday. I figure if something goes over the side in shallow water, I might be able to recover it if I had a pair of goggles aboard (or to check on possible damage to the underside of the boat if I bump something). So I guess I will be going cheap on the goggles too.
I agree on the GPS too, being a lake/river sailor, I don't need much and bought a $40 model off craigslist (my wife could resist a flashy one she saw and now I have a much nicer one though). Since my boat sits on the trailer 99% of it's existence, and probably spends .001% of it's time tied to a dock, I went with the cheapest dock lines that were available at West Marine (probably still paid too much, given the store).
... and when something inadvertently gets committed to Davy Jones' locker, no matter its value, I remind myself of being thankful to old Davy or the water goddesses for having demanded so little in exchange for my wake. In some way this seems to make me feel better and prevent the mishap from ruining the day...
J.
BEER - Buy one good one and drink that one first.
Remember the acronym BOAT "Bring Out Another Thousand". Personally I think the most common error in equipment purchase is to misjudge the real cost of fitting out a new purchase. If you blow your whole budget on the boat you'll be hard pressed to convince the average wife that XYandZ are necessary components of sailing. The cost of goodies and maintenance for the most part goes up exponentially with the size of the boat so keep that in mind. Also consider with a used boat purchase how much stuff transfers to you as the new owner. That bucket of misc. SS fasteners could save you some serious money, and possibly a few trips to the boat store. Line can last forever if treated properly and is expensive to replace so extra line that comes with your boat should be considered as a good savings. Last but not least, don't load your boat up with a lot of unnecessary impulse stuff. Stick to the basics - know how to tie fenders on the life lines for example and skip those quick clip things. Starting with the boat - none of this stuff is strictly necessary to our survival - well sort of - so there is no mandate for what you should buy (aside from safety equipment) for your personal enjoyment. The only thing I think is real nasty on a vessel is rusty galvanized hardware and blue poly sails, although the blue poly probably holds a good shape for a day or two. The best gauge of your purchases can be to look in the mirror and see if you are smiling or not.
"A cheap date may be more costly than cheap boat gear"
Ron
Back in the day I was a foreign car mechanic I was taught that good tools are the best investment. I still have most of them 36 years later. (I rarely loose tools.) That being said, I find that if I've invested a decent sum in a high quality tool, compass, line, whatever- I'll be more prone to take care of it and maintain it. I think in the long run, this is the best and most economical way to go. Plus, the better stuff is usually so much nicer to use.
When I first read this thread, I was gonna mention beer but Ron beat me to it. However, life is too short for cheap wine, bad beer or and ugly sailboat. Seems most of us here don't have to deal with the ugly sailboat issue- we sail Compacs! (Mine was recently noted as the "prettiest boat in the harbor" by an attractive older blonde Norwegian woman.) Sorry about the side path.
Buy the best beer you can afford and enjoy. If you like Pabst, so be it. If Shark Fin gets you swimmin', have at it. Myself, I love a cold Guiness and a great cheeseburger but, being a NJ native, Flying Fish beer is mighty good. Better to drink water or Coke than a poor beer.
I don't like cheap sunglasses. I used to buy Vaurnets from Campmor till they stopped selling them. I'l take bronze hardware over stainless anyday. (my 23 is a 1985- all bronze.)
David: Yes, Hinckleys are out of reach and I tend to lean toward smaller boats anyway. I hope I never find a Flicka for sale- hard to resist; they are beautiful and so well built.
Bob23...just my 2 cents.
Two good home sharpened yet cheap [If they go overboard, no big deal] stainless steal knives. One in the cabin,
one on my teak binocular/soda can/winch handle/knife catty attached to my lift off fiberglass fuel tank cover. P.S. that catty makes a great lifting handle BTW.
skip
"I don't like cheap sunglasses."
Bob - I guess that means you are not a ZZ Top fan.
I wear Ray Bans on land. I've had this particular pair for several years. On the boat is a different story though. While I've been lucky for the last several years and haven't lost any of my cheap sunglasses to the river gods, I'm certain that if I wear my Ray Bans out there that they will surely sink to the bottom withiin a few days.
I use a Casio G'zOne cell phone. It's waterproof. I tie a key float onto it. When I first bought it, they were expensive but I see they've come down in price. So go cheap on a cell phone and buy a G'zOne.
Everything about the phone is cool except for the sound quality. It doesn't bother me because I usually don't do a lot of phone talking anyway, and I've gotten used to it now. You can hold the thing under water for 15 minutes, pull it up, flip it open and make a call. It'd be nice to have in your pocket if the worst were to happen, like if you fell off your boat and your boat sailed away............
I don't know where you draw the line to call them cheap but I wear polarized Iron Man sunglasses that I got at Target for about $20.00. My wife says they look good, that's good enough for me. If I should lose them overboard it isn't such a big deal. I did lose a pretty nice Seiko next to the mooring ball one year. That was sad. I was hanging over the bow hooking the lines from the mooring ball to the bow hook on my Hunter 23 and the freakin band broke. I watched it drop in slow motion. Had a five year battery, might still be running down there somewhere in the mud...
Quote from: romei on August 28, 2009, 02:45:12 PM
I wear Ray Bans on land. I've had this particular pair for several years. On the boat is a different story though. While I've been lucky for the last several years and haven't lost any of my cheap sunglasses to the river gods, I'm certain that if I wear my Ray Bans out there that they will surely sink to the bottom withiin a few days.
I use a Casio G'zOne cell phone. It's waterproof. I tie a key float onto it. When I first bought it, they were expensive but I see they've come down in price. So go cheap on a cell phone and buy a G'zOne.
Everything about the phone is cool except for the sound quality. It doesn't bother me because I usually don't do a lot of phone talking anyway, and I've gotten used to it now. You can hold the thing under water for 15 minutes, pull it up, flip it open and make a call. It'd be nice to have in your pocket if the worst were to happen, like if you fell off your boat and your boat sailed away............
Funny thing about those sunglasses. I used to buy cheap, say less than ten bucks in today's dollars. I found that I would lose or break them regularly, several pair a year. About fifteen years ago I bought a pair of Serengeti's from Sam's, about fifty bucks at the time. The next year I bought a second pair so I could have a pair in each vehicle. I've had those same two pair ever since. Must be that they are a little tougher and a psychological thing where I value them more and don't lose them.
Frank
I cheaped out on thiings like throwable PFD line, a topping lift hook, and the swim ladder. The homemade PVC furler likely falls under that category too (although it's held up quite well this year, even in high winds). $20 well spent. The swim ladder was $100, hutchins was $269. For my uses (very occasional dips in the water), the $99 unit is more than sufficient.
However if I had a bigger boat than a 16 and was going to use it in the ocean regularly, I would have bought a real furler and a very sturdy SS (vs. aluminum) ladder. Just depends on your purposes and intended use.
One thing is certain though...high quality parts are only as good as the installation and maintenance/service/inspection. Those $6 pins for the shrouds that "should" cost $1 may never break, but easily come off if not intalled correctly or if not inspected regularly for damage to the cotter pins. As inspections are free if you do them yourself, it's worth mentioning...
It is interesting because my CP19 has a cheap aluminum ladder and I was thinking about putting a good ladder fixed to the ransom with a fold up lower section because swimming off the boat in the lake would be a real kick...
I go cheap on electronics- got a small chartplotter/fish finder combo. Tend to use charts and binocs. I just feel its safer that way. Oh yeah, and everyone knows I am too cheap to buy a autopilot. :)
That is a great plan Bob. I had a cheap folding ladder on a previous boat. It worked well enough... The problem with them is you have to plan on using them. If you should accidentally go over the side it is a bear getting back into a boat without a transom mounted ladder if you happen to be out alone.
Quote from: Bob Condon on September 01, 2009, 04:55:20 PM
It is interesting because my CP19 has a cheap aluminum ladder and I was thinking about putting a good ladder fixed to the ransom with a fold up lower section because swimming off the boat in the lake would be a real kick...
Newt, I can relate. I don't have a gps in my truck...I buy a paper map book at Walmat for 5 clams. Never been lost yet. I don't like taking directions from some dope in the gps unit that I can't scream back at when they take me the wrong way!
The only reason I have a gps on "Koinonia" is because it was given to me for free. It's nice to see my actual speed over the ground but I really enjoy navigating by dead reckoning.
One piece of equiptment that I did not scrimp on was a lexan french press for making fresh coffee. I had a glass one on board but, knowing the combined intentions of Davey Jones and Captain Murphy, it was bound to break. My daughter bought me a Lexan one at Bed, Bath and Beyond but you can get 'em at Campmor.com. Nothing like real, fresh coffee in the morning, eh? Just about as good as cold beer.
I also don't scrimp on ground tackle. Or my mooring tackle. I've seen "Koinoina" out there in 65 mph winds all by herself and she help up just fine. If something were to have failed, there was no way I couldv'e gotten out there...water was just too rough. Imagine my surprise when the morning after, she was still there! Yeah, 1/2" chain down to a 5' auger mooring, with 2 5/8" lines up to the mooring cleat on her bow. I just love cheap insurance!
Bob23
Bob23
I find GPS very helpful when in unknown territory. I do not own one but when I borrowed my son's it was
a true joy.
My only concern is your lack of electronics on board. I don't know if you are lake sailing or coastal, but
I did have loran and a hand held GPS, plus all of the gear necessary for sight identification. When I ocean sail, the
fog can roll in very quickly and having electronics has helped me keep my crew safe, though I can manage
without it, I would rather use it. That IS cheap insurance. On board radio and hand helds are both very important also...
At the lake, I can drop anchor and wait out whatever is delivered, at sea, I can not.
I found that in dense fog, my french press failed to help me at all. My small stove to make soup
saved my butt...I keep a small butane stove on board for all cooking at sea.
The other part is that my boat is not loaded with every piece of junk known to man. More junk is more burden.
Quote from: Salty16 on September 01, 2009, 04:35:24 PM
I cheaped out on thiings like throwable PFD line, a topping lift hook, and the swim ladder. The homemade PVC furler likely falls under that category too (although it's held up quite well this year, even in high winds). $20 well spent. The swim ladder was $100, hutchins was $269. For my uses (very occasional dips in the water), the $99 unit is more than sufficient.
However if I had a bigger boat than a 16 and was going to use it in the ocean regularly, I would have bought a real furler and a very sturdy SS (vs. aluminum) ladder. Just depends on your purposes and intended use.
One thing is certain though...high quality parts are only as good as the installation and maintenance/service/inspection. Those $6 pins for the shrouds that "should" cost $1 may never break, but easily come off if not intalled correctly or if not inspected regularly for damage to the cotter pins. As inspections are free if you do them yourself, it's worth mentioning...
Edit: To clarify...my ladder is transom hung. It's a 2 step garelick aluminum model. So it's there always if needed. I just didn't feel like spending the extra $170 on something I use so infrequently when the $100 model will serve it's purposes.
True, True Bob:
I have an Icom radio on board, a hand-held for back-up, the gps is permanently installed and sometimes, if I remember, I bring my little Magellan Explorist on board as a back-up and toy. "Koinonia" sports a good compass, charts, a handbaring compass, Northstar depth sounder and an old knotmeter that only works for about 2 weeks before the bay critters get in the paddle wheel and foul things up.
It is true that the french press has limited navigational purposes but to those of us who view real coffee as a nessesity, it is indispensable. Even when you are lost, good coffee can help make a bad day better.
This spring, when I was bringing the boat from the marina where she is launched to her summer mooring, visibility was about 10 boat lengths; some serious fog had set in. Having the gps was wonderful but I primarily used it to obtain my lat/lon which I transfered to my chart and plotted a compass course to my destinations. I hit my destination dead on, not literally of course. I like this kind of course plotting- keeps the grey matter alive.
Bob23- plotting a course for the kitchen to make coffee
In the Norteast,we get very dense fog (about a boat length) with lots of fog horns around
on other boats when in coastal waters. The other bit of fun is that Marblehead/Salem are
VERY rocky bottom. In fog, you stay in the channel so the GPS really helps but you need to
remember how to use charts, handheld compass etc when the electronics fail.
On the lake in Maine, we have not had these experiences... It is either gorgeous cloud free, or raining
like hell with or without lightning!
Bob and Bob (and the others in this thread),
Just to add my own experience with GPS associated with Coastal Cruising. I have found a GPS to be an useful aid to Coastal Navigation during the night (i.e., to avoid buoys and dangers with known or chartered positions) and to stay put while underway around a given position without risking of being pushed to shore or to shoals during a squall, when coastal visibility was being transiently limited by heavy rain. GPS is also insdispensable to determine SOG and COG and to quickly mark a COB position or operate an autopilot. However, further than that, I have found it of limited value as an aid for Coastal Cruising. I do not recommend its use for navigation in conditions of reduced visibility other than those mentioned above mainly due to potential encounters with unchartered and/or moving dangers. My main use for a GPS in coastal waters has been returning in the night accross a lake with which I was very familiar, but relying on the GPS to ensure avoidance of the numerous unlit racing markers positioned around the lake.
J.
While we are whinning about GPS's (I love this thread!) Let me so state to Bob and Bob and Joe that the GPS on chartplotters seem to fail enough up here in the PNW that I would not want to depend solely on it during a fog. Yes it is a nice tool, but one that I use in addition to paper charts and a good set of eyes and ears. Besides, I am always putting in detail on paper charts that are changes that have occurred since the datum was printed.
Finally, what do you do when the GPS says sorry, signal lost??? Or my favorite, when it starts to show you in one place, then another, then another, as if you are beaming the boat around the ocean. (I know, you just put the engine in park until things settle down :D) I am not the only sailor in the world that gets that type of crap!
Newt,
I do preplan and preplot my course and guestimate time etc...
WIth my Garman, I have never had Signal Lost nor had errors so I am lucky.
I also have Loran running down below (it was on the boat when I bought it) so that
gives me a second data point if I need it.
I am selling my Cape Dory (sad day) so my ocean days will be pretty much gone
unless I trailer the CP19 down from Maine (250 miles) from the cabin so Lake sailing
is now what I do on a large lake (15 miles long x 1.5 mile wide average)
have a good weekend...
[Mine has 8 hours of drive and power washing all day Saturday... with the CP19 whispering my name!]
Well, Newt:
You know I share your sentiment. As much as I am a self confessed gadgeteer, I like to be able to sail without the electronics if necessary.
As you may or may not know, I'm in residential construction. As we use nail guns for framing, siding, trim, you name it. But I'm forturnate in that I got started in the pre-nail gun age, one that doesn't exist for some of the green horns I encounter. Maybe it's my ego but I love to engage 'em in a nailing contest using of all things, a hammer. Not just any hammer but an el cheapo wood handle hammer. My favorite. No titanium or unobtainium here. We line up the nails and, due to a pretty good hand-eye coordination, I beat those new-bies every time.
What does this have to do with gps? Simple. When the compressor dies or the nail gun dies, I can keep navigating those nails in, no problemo. I get a certain satisfaction in being able to drive a 12d in with 2 hits. Yeah...I'm a pretty boring guy.
Bob23- the scourge of the jobsite!
That being said, I love my nailguns, too. Just like I enjoy pulling my Compac with my truck...t'would be awful heavy pulling with my bicycle!
This thread is very entertaining and comes at a time when I am just deciding whether to enter my 23 in the Sailfar Scoot. Now my Valiant has all the electronics in it, My CP has a compass, depth finder and a VHF. My Valiant has all the open water goodies. Do I go? Do I have the courage? Still deciding.
SALTY 16, YOU MEMTION A HOMEMADE PVC FURLER, WOULD BE INTERESTED IN THE DESIGN, IF YOU ARE WILLING TO SHARE........THANKS NIES
nies[/i]~Small Boat Adviser[/i] had an article on building a PVC furler for a CP-16. Might be able to find that in Google.
skip.
Check out this site for a PVC roller furler.
http://faculty.augie.edu/~swart/CP-16/Roller%20Furler.html (http://faculty.augie.edu/~swart/CP-16/Roller%20Furler.html)
THANKS GUYS, THE INFO ON PVC ROLLER IS APPRECIATED, ILL LET YOU KNOW HOW IT TURNS OUT.....NIES
Interesting opinions about the GPS. I became a ardent fan during a bareboat charter in the Bahama's ten years ago. Chartered a Hunter Passage 42 in the Sea of Abaco. Those of you who've been there know there are a lot of shoal areas. The GPS tied to the autopilot made the vacation much more enjoyable. GPS already had a bag of waypoints in memory to go almost anywhere. Can you ignore the process?, certainly not, one of the waypoints in memory was wrong and would have put us on the rocks, so you have to have a "watch". But nice to be able to get to all the points of interest without worrying about fetching up on a sand bar. My 23 is in the process of having same.
Bob23, LOL about the nail driving competition. You must be one of those fortunates who has not developed the dreaded tendinitis of the elbow. If you ever do, and I hope you don't, you will learn to love those nail guns even more.
Just got a pretty good deal on a Stearns Ultra 4000 automatic PFD with sailing D-rings. Looking for a good deal on a retractable tether with quick release harness end and evaluating the need for a jack line. Unfortunately, with the offspring grown and scattered, the Admiral's later life preference for shore duty, and all my long time sailing buddies either having moved off or declared that they're too old to sail (is that even possible?), I'll be doing a lot of single handling. I won't cheap out on that safety stuff.
Frank
Funny thing about what a person thinks is mandatory needed equipment and or knowledge. Take need for gps for coastal navigation, some like some don't. Now the funny thing is that the nation is shutting down some light houses and thinking of turning more off as they are not needed because a gps will bring you home. On the other hand many gps satellites are past their life expectancy and could stop operation at any time. Wow I wounder if the coast guard is taking to NASA. On a foggy stormy evening and no light to guide you home what you gonna do. Wish you had a gps or have one with the proper charts and knowledge to use the two together.
Personally I use gps and charts. However the sight of a light on a cape or river entrance Is a welcome sight. Been on boats with radar overlay chart plotter and found that to be fun.
To have a engine or not is also a personal choice. I choose to have a engine because it is not allways a matter of personal safety but the safety of others that count. take the Pacific Northwest and B.C. Many harbors are used as sea plane ports and they have the right of way. No place for some one to be rowing or sculling a sail boat when a plane is setting down or taking off. You either have a engine or stay away.
IMHO the choice to have a piece of equipment on board does not make a good sailor or a bad one. The important thing is to have FUN. To the original question as to what piece of equipment to go cheep on, if it's rigging or safty I go with the best I can afford. Toys, that's where I think I have more choice. An example would be gps. I once helped a friend take his boat from Portland Oregon to Brookings Or. When his 3'000 plus dollar nav. system went down we used my 400 dollar hand held to nav. the Coulumbia and cross the bar. Later when we got his system on line we still kelp my toy turned on.
In the end we all should do what works for ourselves, If others want to come along for the ride welcome aboard Melvin