Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association

Com-Pac Model Specific Discussions => CP-16's => Topic started by: wetland on July 07, 2009, 09:12:33 AM

Title: Honda 2HP
Post by: wetland on July 07, 2009, 09:12:33 AM
Hello;

Can anyone who owns this motor tell me the approach they use to check the oil level.
I have a difficult time assessing the oil level via the small window on the side of the motor.
What is the trick to performing this function?

Thanks,
Tom M
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Steve Ullrich on July 07, 2009, 09:36:34 AM
Also...  I'd like to know if those of you with Honda 2hp kickers like your engine?  Is this enough power?
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Deb on July 07, 2009, 10:31:45 AM
Howdy Y'all, I've got a 2006  2 HP Honda and it works just fine.  I've had it a year and it's been a big help at times, even trolling to fish.  Assessing the oil level is easier with the right light.  Use a flashlight and keep the window clean.  Add more oil if in doubt. I did all the tune up myself and it wasn't hard at all, following the manual which I downloaded off the net. Once I couldn't start it and alas the oil was low.  After filling there was no further problem.  I have noticed a gas leak when I lay her down (properly) in the back of my truck on a piece of old egg crate mattress to go somewhere as I don't want the weight on the mount. I will take her in somewhere to have this checked at some time.  I do wish I had an electric start as I always seem to get bit by the pull cord.  But that's my fault.  I do wish it had a reverse, have had a couple scary moments.  All in all she's all I need and seems to be enough kick.   Deb
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Rick Klages on July 07, 2009, 11:08:28 AM
Quote from: Steve Ullrich on July 07, 2009, 09:36:34 AM
Also...  I'd like to know if those of you with Honda 2hp kickers like your engine?  Is this enough power?

I had a Honda 2hp longshaft on my Hunter 212 (displacement 1800Lbs) and it worked great!  If my Tohatsu quit today I would rather go buy the Honda than fix it.
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: wetland on July 07, 2009, 02:09:30 PM
Steve:

I was using a 2 cycle 6 HP Suzuki from my previous sailboat, before I purchased the honda 2 HP.
For my use it does not have enough power.  I keep the boat in the water for the season.
I have to travel about 3/4 mile each way down
a wetland creek to reach a large ocean bay.  Although you can reach near hull speed, with the
honda 2, you  need to run it wide open which I don't like to do with any engine.  I could just
go slower but I like to get a couple sailing hours after work and don't want to spend half the time on the creek. 
This weekend I was sailing in winds that would
come and go. From stiff to doldrums.  I tried to sail with the motor down and assisting which I
have done in these conditions with the suzuki 6.  As soon as the wind would pick up, the honda
lower shaft would break out of its rubber containment bushing that holds the motor rotated down and just drag it
behind the boat with the prop spinning.  Lastly I really dislike the oil check window which I can't seem to
read well (Why I started this thread).  I'll try some different flashlights as someone suggested.  Once
I over filled it with oil because I couldn't read it and dropped the tiney oil cap in my lagoon and had
to wait 2 weeks to order another at 10.00.  It is not particularly quiet when compared to engines
that exhaust through the water.   On the plus side it weighs only twenty some pounds which makes up
for almost everything.  Lots of advantages having a motor that light on a CP-16.  Being air cooled it
just pollutes the atmosphere instead of the water and the atmosphere.  Although it holds a pint of gas,
you probably have to change it every year.  My Suzuki 6 weights about 59 lbs which is too heavy for
the boat and my back.  I don't know what is available now, but to do it over I might look at a 4 HP,
if its weight were low enough say about 35 lbs.  I could not find anything two years ago that met
that spec.  I guess I like a little extra power for those times I have found myself in a situation that
I needed to get out of fast.

Tom M. 
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Rick Klages on July 07, 2009, 02:55:44 PM
Quote from: wetland on July 07, 2009, 02:09:30 PM
Steve:

I was using a 2 cycle 6 HP Suzuki from my previous sailboat, before I purchased the honda 2 HP.
For my use it does not have enough power.  I keep the boat in the water for the season.
I have to travel about 3/4 mile each way down
a wetland creek to reach a large ocean bay.  Although you can reach near hull speed, with the
honda 2, you  need to run it wide open which I don't like to do with any engine.  I could just
go slower but I like to get a couple sailing hours after work and don't want to spend half the time on the creek. 
This weekend I was sailing in winds that would
come and go. From stiff to doldrums.  I tried to sail with the motor down and assisting which I
have done in these conditions with the suzuki 6.  As soon as the wind would pick up, the honda
lower shaft would break out of its rubber containment bushing that holds the motor rotated down and just drag it
behind the boat with the prop spinning.  Lastly I really dislike the oil check window which I can't seem to
read well (Why I started this thread).  I'll try some different flashlights as someone suggested.  Once
I over filled it with oil because I couldn't read it and dropped the tiney oil cap in my lagoon and had
to wait 2 weeks to order another at 10.00.  It is not particularly quiet when compared to engines
that exhaust through the water.   On the plus side it weighs only twenty some pounds which makes up
for almost everything.  Lots of advantages having a motor that light on a CP-16.  Being air cooled it
just pollutes the atmosphere instead of the water and the atmosphere.  Although it holds a pint of gas,
you probably have to change it every year.  My Suzuki 6 weights about 59 lbs which is too heavy for
the boat and my back.  I don't know what is available now, but to do it over I might look at a 4 HP,
if its weight were low enough say about 35 lbs.  I could not find anything two years ago that met
that spec.  I guess I like a little extra power for those times I have found myself in a situation that
I needed to get out of fast.

Tom M. 

Trade you!  The Tohatsu is a 3.5Hp  2 stroke. 
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: daryl81 on July 07, 2009, 07:30:25 PM
I have a 1993 water cooled 2 horse that I use on my cp-16 on an inland lake with no problem. This older motor is always in gear and starts first or second pull. It is a short shaft but I have an adjustable mount that keeps the cavitation plate way below water level. I wouldn't trade it for anything else. 27 pounds of weight that pushes 4+ knots at half throttle.
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Salty19 on July 07, 2009, 09:03:01 PM
Personally I will never buy another Honda small engine.  Had a new Honda lawn mower, piece of junk...wouldn't start, did not cut well, very heavy.  I donated it.

I have a 2k Honda generator...again won't start without cursing, cannot pull the watts it's supposed to, it blows oil into the exhaust--not happy with it at all.  A far cry from their cars and motorcycles (my wife rides a VFR and I used to have an old Nighthawk)

I did a bunch of research when buying a new outboard. Here's the data I found on what is available:

MAKE   HP   Weight lbs   Weight kg   Hp/weight   Trans   Shaft   Cooling   Tank   Oil Tank   WOT RPM   ALT?   Warranty
Honda   2   28      0.071428571   Centrifugal   Long   Air         5000-6000   No   5
Suzuki   2.5   30.1      0.083056478   F-N   Short 15"   Water   1.5 ltr      5250-5750   No   
Yamaha   2.5   37   17   0.067567568   F-N   Short 15"   Water         5250-5750   No   3
Tohatsu   2.5   41   18.4   0.06097561   F-N   Short 15"   Water   .32gal/1.2 ltr   10oz/300ml   4500-5500   No   3
Tohatsu   3.5   41      0.085365854   F-N   Short 15"   Water   .32gal/1.2 ltr   10oz/300ml         
Tohatsu   3.5   43   19.05   0.081395349   F-N   Long 20   Water   .32gal/1.2 ltr   10oz/300ml   5000-6000   No   3
Yamaha   4   48   22   0.083333333   F-N   Short/Long 20   Water         4000-5000   No   3
Suzuki   4   57      0.070175439   F-N-R   Short/Long 20   Water   1.5 ltr   .74 gt/.7 ltr   4000-5000   Opt 6A   
Suzuki   6   57      0.105263158   F-N-R   Short/Long 20   Water   1.5 ltr   .74 gt/.7 ltr   4750-5750   Opt 6A   
Tohatsu   4   59      0.06779661   F-N-R   Short/Long 20   Water   .34 gal/1.3 ltr   15 oz/450ml   4500-5500   Opt 5 A   3
Honda   5   61   27.5   0.081967213   F-N-R      Water         4500-5500   Opt 3A   5


As the long shaft is needed for the CP16,it leaves us with either the Honda or Tohatsu/Nissan/Mercury as reasonable units (new).  Yamaha makes top quality machines in general, but way too heavy!
I chose the Tohatsu 3.5.  It's 43 lbs, and maybe slight overkill for small lake use, ubt it starts the first pull, is very quiet, great mileage, and when I do decide to take it to
the ocean or Lake Erie, it will be able to battle the waves and get me safely home.  1/4 throttle is hull speed on calm water or trolling speeds in 20mph wind. I like that it's not working real hard, it will last longer.
I value quiet and reliable...the Honda is very loud and the centrigugal clutch was not appealing to me at all.  I like the control of the gear shifter.

My thought on the sight window aside from teh good idea of using a flashlight is see if a makeshift dipstick can be used.  For example a small dowel rod with marks on it for oil level and another mark for reference (for example the top line would line up with the fill opening.  )
Not sure if mechanicals are in the way or not?
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Rick Klages on July 08, 2009, 12:03:20 AM
I have a Tohatsu 3.5 long-shaft 2 stroke and I think its a piece of junk.  Servicing it is no picnick.  It puts all sorts of filth into the water. It can be very difficult to start. Its very loud at even part throttle.  Mixing oil is a pain and unnecessary in the modern age.  Its ugly (and cheap looking). The quality and fit of the plastic engine cowling is awful.  I got this turd for free when I bought my boat. I carry almost everything I need to overhaul this sad thing on every outing. Do you want to buy it?  My fantasy is giving it a burial at sea.

I have owned the Honda and it was trouble free.  Light and powerful, clean running and quiet. Easy to start and maintain.  It easily propelled my 22 foot 1800 pound Hunter  212 to hull speed (about 6 Knots) even in moderate swells on the Atlantic Ocean. It moved the Hunter at 4 Knots on calm water  at just a bit above idle. If you think you need more power let me recommend you give up sailing and buy a speed boat!  Hull speed on a CP16 is about 5 Knots.  More engine is just a waste.
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: wetland on July 08, 2009, 02:46:27 PM
Salty;

Thanks for the specifications on small engines.  It must have taken time to type  them in.
They are a good reference.  I like the dipstick idea and will try to fashion one with perhaps
some flexible material.  Please don't give up sailing and buy a speed boat because you desire
another 1.5 HP on your 1000 lb boat.  You can use my speed boat if you ever come to NJ.

Thanks again,
Tom M.   
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Salty19 on July 08, 2009, 03:36:14 PM
Rick,

lol, Sounds like a funeral at sea is in order!  A pontoon boat in my marina has the Tohatsu 9.9...loud as hell and belches a lot of smoke!
I had a Johnson 4hp 2 smoker and got rid of it for the same reasons as you! Got $300 out of it too :)

I can assure you the 4 stroke Tohatsu 3.5hp is indeed put together well, starts the first pull, has minimal vibration after break-in, is quiet, thrust is excellent, and generally I'm VERY pleased with it!   I cannot comment on long term reliability, the motor only has about 15-18 hours on it. But it runs smooth!
However based on your experience with the 2 smoker, I can see why you will not go back to Tohatsu.

I guess I don't perceive the 3.5 as overkill but rather the motor won't work hard and will last longer. Also if I'm caught in a big blow the extra juice is appreciated (usually I just motor for a few minutes out and in to the dock-long enough to warm up the engine to reduce carb).  Hutchins specs says up to 4hp, so it's not beyond thier specs.  And quiet is very important to me--the Honda is much louder--I heard one in a shop and was surprised how loud it was (still quieter than the 2 strokes, I think?). The 43lbs does not seem to be problem either with the right cargo balance in the bow.    Scuppers stay dry unless I'm carrying 2 or more crew besides myself (which is rare). With just the wife and I, it's balanced.  

Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Salty19 on July 08, 2009, 03:39:28 PM
Tom-

No problem, I had the chart created for my own use.  Just copy/pasted.

And no, powerboating is not in my future.  I think Rick was just joking around :)
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Rick Klages on July 08, 2009, 04:59:59 PM
One more point!  I sail on the salt.  The Honda 2Hp is air cooled so no corrosive salt water inside the engine jacket or coolant pump!
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Brian 1851 on July 08, 2009, 09:35:15 PM
Rick,

     I think your previous owner must have beat the life out of your motor because of how ruff and loud it runs.  I have the same motor.  Though there are some short comings( no neutral, engine not easy to access) my engine is extremely quiet and runs very well.  It sounds like you hope your engine dies but if you want to try and help it to run better this might possibly help.  A couple of things I have used that keeps my engine running good is Opti-2 for my oil additive which uses about 1/2 of the oil of what is normally used which has made a big difference for me mixed with high octane gas.  I hardly notice any oil in the water when motoring and none in the air.  Using Sea Foam has helped a lot in making the engine run much smoother and quieter.  A great product.  By how you talk about the outboard I know you want to get rid of it but maybe if it runs better you can get more money for it when you sell it.

                                                 
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Bob23 on July 09, 2009, 04:46:38 AM
   I don't own a Honda 2 but I understood that the lower unit was water cooled or something like that. Is there still an impeller in the Honda 2 to provide this?
   My Tohatsu 3.5 came with a nuetral and forward and was a great motor even though I completly submerged it in salt water during a capsize in my old SeaPearl. I didn't allow the motor to dry out at all, keeping it submerged in the bay while I sorted out the disaster which resulted in no loss of lives but a hugh ego loss to the captain.
   I then sunk the motor in a barrel of fresh water overnight, in the morning dropped it off at Hance and Smythe (local sunfish/Boston Whaler dealer and great friend) and by 1400 hrs that day, I had a perfectly running outboard again, although a few bucks poorer. I sold the motor with the 'Pearl but it continued to run perfectly.
   Ick- maybe yours was built on a Friday?
Bob23...now Nissan powered.
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: kickingbug1 on July 09, 2009, 10:13:21 AM
    hang on to your hats ---i run an old cruise and carry air cooled 2.7 hp on my 16. the thing is light ( i leave it on the mount all the time with no problems. it starts on the first and second pull and has a neutral. until it quits it will do the trick, the honda sounds like my furture replacement being aircooled and light.
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Rick Klages on July 09, 2009, 12:02:19 PM
The Tohatsu is in very good condition,  it like my boat was lovingly maintained by the prior owner.  Having owned both engines I just strongly prefer the Honda.
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Smitty on July 09, 2009, 12:43:18 PM
Currently running an old Sea King 3.5 (Clinton) on my 16 that was given to me.  The thing looks like new and starts on the first or second pull, quiet for a two stroke, air cooled, light,  with very little smoke and does a good job pushing the 16 around.  I only run it at 1/4 to 1/2 throttle.  My only complaint, no neutral or reverse, but I guess you can't look a gift horse.....If it quit today I would go for the Honda.

My 2 cents
Smitty
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Shawn on July 09, 2009, 04:41:38 PM
"   I don't own a Honda 2 but I understood that the lower unit was water cooled or something like that."

The older version of the Honda had basically water cooled exhaust so it had an impeller. That version is supposed to be quieter then the totally air cooled version.

Shawn
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: romei on July 11, 2009, 09:33:08 PM
I'll give my 2 cents I guess.  I have a Johnson 4 and would not run anything smaller.  My main body of water has current and I need some horses going upstream when there's no wind.  Plus, many times I'll motor down to the big water before I raise my sails.  The less time I spend motoring means the more time I can spend sailing.

Also, I'd rather have the extra horses there if I really needed them than to not have them if I really needed them to avoid a collision, a sea wall, or a nasty tide or current.
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Rick Klages on July 12, 2009, 12:54:07 PM
Quote from: romei on July 11, 2009, 09:33:08 PM
I'll give my 2 cents I guess.  I have a Johnson 4 and would not run anything smaller.  My main body of water has current and I need some horses going upstream when there's no wind.  Plus, many times I'll motor down to the big water before I raise my sails.  The less time I spend motoring means the more time I can spend sailing.

Also, I'd rather have the extra horses there if I really needed them than to not have them if I really needed them to avoid a collision, a sea wall, or a nasty tide or current.
Hull speed is still five knots, two or twenty horse power.
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Shawn on July 12, 2009, 01:01:22 PM
"That version is supposed to be quieter then the totally air cooled version."

My boat is docked in a very busy harbor with lots of dinghy traffic. A dinghy went by with an engine that was sort of loud and sounded a bit different then most of the rest of the engines I hear. So I turned around to check it out and it was the air cooled Honda. I have the Suzuki 2.5 and I think it is considerably quieter at the same engine speed, my Tohatsu 6hp probably is too but that probably isn't a fair comparison as its exhaust is so much deeper in the water being a 25" shaft.

On the flip side the air cooled 2 strokes I have owned (Gamefisher 1.25hp and 1.75hp and a Cruise 'n Carry) are much louder.

Shawn   
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Shawn on July 12, 2009, 01:07:19 PM
"Hull speed is still five knots, two or twenty horse power."

Very true, if a engine can get you to hull speed then more horses won't help fight a tide.

What more power will help fight is windage.

This guy lost his 15' Potter:

http://www.tetra-sail.com/lossstory.htm

and one of the factors, among many others, was he couldn't make any progress to wind with his 2hp Honda.

Shawn
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: romei on July 12, 2009, 07:03:27 PM
Where I sail my 4hp won't give me hull speed against the current when the current is swift.  If the wind is in my face it's even worse.
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Bob23 on July 12, 2009, 07:52:14 PM
   Of course I can't help but throw in 2 more of my cents.
   It's my understanding that 2 stroke outboards like to be run at about 3/4 throttle. I'm sure this is just a general assumption around the fact that they can foul plugs at too low a speed. That being said, my Nissan 8 hp on my 1985 23/2 seems to like at about 1/3 to  1/2 throttle. Any more than that and she seems to actually move slower.
   Nonetheless. Having that extra hp saved the boat at least once. I won't go into the details but due to pilot error, I found myself heading for a wooden dock due to a snagged mainsheet and jib sheet at the same time. Having the motor ready, able, and willing to start and provide 8 ponies at a moments notice saved the day (not to mention the captains butt.)
   I regularly need to motor into a 15-20 knot headwind and oncoming tide. Knowing that the motor doesn't have to run at full throttle to overcome both, gives me a bit of peace of mind that it will continue to run thusly for long time.
Bob23 in NJ...again just my 2 cents- or 8 hp- whichever you prefer.
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Rick Klages on July 12, 2009, 08:29:56 PM
Quote from: romei on July 12, 2009, 07:03:27 PM
Where I sail my 4hp won't give me hull speed against the current when the current is swift.  If the wind is in my face it's even worse.

If the tide is flowing faster than hull speed you will be going backwards regardless of horsepower. You are already at hull speed (5 Kts). If you are already moving at hull speed when fighting  "windage" additional horsepower has no benefit.  Displacement hulls as a rule are limited to design (hull) speed. 
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Rick Klages on July 12, 2009, 08:36:57 PM
Quote from: Shawn on July 12, 2009, 01:07:19 PM
"Hull speed is still five knots, two or twenty horse power."

Very true, if a engine can get you to hull speed then more horses won't help fight a tide.

What more power will help fight is windage.

This guy lost his 15' Potter:

http://www.tetra-sail.com/lossstory.htm

and one of the factors, among many others, was he couldn't make any progress to wind with his 2 hp Honda.

"I needed to work about 100 yards upwind and then pass windward of a PVC marker. There was very little water there. My sounder was alternating between 2 and 3 feet. Bobby had passed me by that time and I could tell that his boat was now badly aground in the shallows.  I only had a little centerboard down and I just uncleated a downhaul to save the rudder. I started the outboard to see if it would help me. I'd been sailing under a double-reefed main and tiny furled jib. Now, I had big winds on the nose and no water under the boat. I began trying to make tacks, but found it impossible to work to wind. I desperately needed centerboard and rudder, but didn't have depth for them. I was burning up the motor trying to help tack the boat and smelled it as it ran hot. I'd jibe around then pull off a lucky tack every now and then, but just couldn't make any ground.  The outboard was just roaring, but seemed to do little good against the wind."

The shallow water prevented him from using his centerboard and rudder!  It's a sailboat, the wind is blowing so sail! But he was operating in a puddle! And you can not sail to windward without counteracting the force of the wind . Motor tacking (what is that)?  The problem here is he was unable steer or sail due to not having enough centerboard and rudder in the water.  All his engine was doing was adding to leeway in vector sum with the wind.  If he had steerage this likely would have ended differently.  Don't carry any sail if you cant put your centerboard down.  Don't expect to steer even with your outboard if your centerboard is not at least one third  to one half in the water. His outcome would have been the same if he had a 4hp or even a 10 hp engine.  he should have been looking for a place to drop his ground tackle and all sail to wait it out. Potter 15 has a hull speed of about 4.5 Kts.   This tale is more about conditions and less about the merits of particular boats and engines.
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Shawn on July 12, 2009, 08:57:27 PM
Quote from: romei on July 12, 2009, 07:03:27 PM
Where I sail my 4hp won't give me hull speed against the current when the current is swift.

Are you measuring water speed or speed over ground? If you are using a GPS you are measuring speed over ground which is not.

Say your hull speed (water speed) is 6 knots. In no tide you go hull speed, your water speed is 6 knots and your GPS will also show 6 knots.

Now head into a 3 knot current. Your water speed is still 6 knots, but your GPS is only going to read 3 knots. You are still going hull speed.

Turn 180 degrees and go with the current. Your water is still 6 knots, but your GPS is going to read 9 knots. You are still going hull speed.

Drop anchor in the current. Your water speed is 3 knots, but your GPS is going to read 0 knots.

Shawn
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Shawn on July 12, 2009, 08:58:50 PM
"His outcome would have been the same if he had a 4hp or even a 10 hp engine."

No, it wouldn't have. He could have simply pointed straight into the wind and motored upwind.

Shawn
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Rick Klages on July 12, 2009, 09:03:29 PM
Quote from: Shawn on July 12, 2009, 08:58:50 PM
"His outcome would have been the same if he had a 4hp or even a 10 hp engine."

No, it wouldn't have. He could have simply pointed straight into the wind and motored upwind.

Shawn
Not without the ability to steer!  No side sheer force no steering no centerboard no side shear! 
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Shawn on July 12, 2009, 09:16:56 PM
"Not without the ability to steer! "

So a rowboat with an engine on the back can't head into the wind?????

He would have been able to steer very easily, just use the engine. I did that often in my old centerboard boat. With no centerboard down it would wander a little side to side heading dead into wind but it was still very easy to steer. Even with a couple of inches of centerboard it would track straight when motoring as there aren't the huge forces from the sails trying to push you sideways. Or he could have used the rudder. If it is down (even a little) and he is moving through the water the rudder will still turn the boat, even with the centerboard up it will just wander heading into the wind. Centerboard boats on a run often pull up the centerboard for more speed.

Steering with the engine gives you the advantage of having steerage even when you have no water speed because it is vectored thrust.

If he had more power he would still have his boat. Or if he would have done plenty of other things differently (including dropping anchor and waiting it out) he would still have his boat.

Shawn



Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Rick Klages on July 12, 2009, 10:11:57 PM
Row boats and power boats have strakes and keelsons designed to provide shear.  Displacement sailboats rely on keels and or retractable centerboards or dagger boards.  My old Hunter 212 would not steer while motoring without one third of the swing keel lowered.  My old precision 15 was about the same way.  Very imprecise steering without the boards down in dead air. And not steerable into the wind just like the lost Potter. Hulls with "lapstrake" patterns like the montgomery 15 and 17 may generate enough sheer to motor without boards down.  Most sail boats will not.  As he stated: I desperately needed centerboard and rudder, but didn't have depth for them.

Running is not going to windward so pulling up a bit of board on a run is pointless to this discussion.  From your stance on this subject if he had twin mercury mariner one fifties on the transom he could have also gone waterskiing! Truth is he was in a bad place and made a bad choice. 
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Shawn on July 12, 2009, 10:36:08 PM
"As he stated: I desperately needed centerboard and rudder, but didn't have depth for them."

Absolutely, because he was trying to sail upwind because in his own words "A 2hp Honda cannot compete against high winds."  His Honda didn't have enough power to just motor into the wind. If he had enough water to have his engine down he had enough water to put the center board down even just a touch which would have been plenty if he had the power to overcome the wind. He didn't.

"Running is not going to windward so pulling up a bit of board on a run is pointless to this discussion. "

You said you can't steer without centerboard, it is an everyday common example of a boat steering without any centerboard.

"From your stance on this subject if he had twin mercury mariner one fifties on the transom he could have also gone waterskiing"

Nice strawman.

"Truth is he was in a bad place and made a bad choice.  "

No kidding, he made numerous bad choices. One was thinking he had enough power for high wind situations.

Shawn
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Rick Klages on July 13, 2009, 12:00:29 AM
Quote from: Shawn on July 12, 2009, 10:36:08 PM

"From your stance on this subject if he had twin mercury mariner one fifties on the transom he could have also gone waterskiing"

1. Nice strawman.

2. You said you can't steer without centerboard, it is an everyday common example of a boat steering without any centerboard.


1. It was more an attempt at humor than a debate tactic. 

2. I stated a Bit of centerboard. "Running is not going to windward so pulling up a bit of board on a run is pointless to this discussion." Pulling all of it  results in imprecise steering and much leeway. I also said it was my experience that to achieve good steerage on the two boats cited I needed one third to one half of the board lowered.  This is true for running reaching or motoring.

Once again:

I have owned the Honda in question and used it in the Peconic Bays and the Long Island Sound in some very rough conditions against tide and high winds propelling a larger and heaver boat than a Potter 15 or a Compac 16.  It worked fine for me. I will buy another one when I need a new engine. 
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Bob23 on July 13, 2009, 04:24:49 AM
Interesting debate, men:
   I am reminded of my old SeaPearl 21 days and an attempt at rowing with no centerboard or rudder down. (This was before I had a motor on board. Ah..simplicity!) She was almost impossible to row into the wind. Once the wind got on either side of the bow, with no underwater profile to provide steerage, there was no way to control her and the winds effect on the hull shape above water took over. She would go from side to side and the only way to conteract this was with the oars power applied to the leeward side. 
   You may see no correlation but it's obvious. Rick is talking about the hulls underwater shape and it's ability (or inablity) to provide direction. Weather it's sails, motor or oars; it's just a basic principle of hydrodynamics, I suppose. The Potters hard chines, I would think, would have provided a bit of control, but I've never sailed one so I'm just theorizing. Being an amateur engineer, scientist, philosopher, genius, and thinker of great thoughts, these are just my observations.
   I really appreciate these exhanges on this site. I always learn something and if nothing else, it gets my brain a-thinking, which is always a good thing.
Bob23..keep it going, men! At ease.
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Shawn on July 13, 2009, 06:46:57 AM
 "Running is not going to windward so pulling up a bit of board on a run is pointless to this discussion." Pulling all of it  results in imprecise steering and much leeway."

Leeway from what? The wind pushing in the same direction you are traveling anyway? I said all the board up on a run.

"I also said it was my experience that to achieve good steerage on the two boats cited I needed one third to one half of the board lowered.  This is true for running reaching or motoring."

My centerboard boat was different.

"I have owned the Honda in question and used it in the Peconic Bays and the Long Island Sound in some very rough conditions against tide and high winds propelling a larger and heaver boat than a Potter 15 or a Compac 16.  It worked fine for me."

Have you considered that your steerage problems were because you didn't have enough engine? 

Shawn
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Shawn on July 13, 2009, 06:52:29 AM
"She was almost impossible to row into the wind. Once the wind got on either side of the bow, with no underwater profile to provide steerage, there was no way to control her and the winds effect on the hull shape above water took over. She would go from side to side and the only way to conteract this was with the oars power applied to the leeward side.  "

Your problem was you couldn't get up enough speed to overcome the wander. When you are just crawling to wind your little bit of forward progress was wasted fighting the wander.

With more speed through the water your boat would have tracked straighter on its own (from more water flowing over the hull) and even you correcting for the wander you would still have speed left over to make progress to wind. Even put an engine on your SeaPearl? If so would it motor to wind?

"The Potters hard chines, I would think, would have provided a bit of control"

If he could move. They don't do anything at rest. His 2hp couldn't get him moving into the wind. With more power he could have.

Shawn
Title: Re: Honda 2HP
Post by: Rick Klages on July 13, 2009, 12:43:45 PM
The Honda 2 provided plenty of headway into the wind on my Hunter as long as I left at least 1/3 of the center board down to allow for good directional command authority. Wind on the nose tends to push a boat out of the winds teeth as Bob 23 stated. I steer with the rudder not the engine. On many small sailboats like the cp16 there is the possibility of interference between the propeller and rudder if you steer to starboard with the engine and don't mind the rudder (especially if the rudder is kicked up).   Bob 23 got my point.  I'm done beating this thing.