Hello Folks,
Interested in knowing what people are using for kickers. The 2hp Suzuki that came with my boat is a long shaft with enough power but it doesn't have neutral. She starts moving as soon as you start it so you have be be ready for that. I decided to look through Craig's List and eBay for a used motor. Is a long shaft necessary on a C-16? If I go with an electric trolling motor how much thrust should I be looking for? I'm mostly going to be on inland lakes but occasionally I'll have currents to deal with, Lake Pepin or the St. Croix for instance...
Thanks,
I'm using a 4hp short shaft two stroke Chrysler outboard with neutral and forward (but have to swivel it 180 degrees for reverse). I think I could get by on less than 4hp, but I feel like it is a little bit of a safety net. When the weather kicks up, or you drift in too close to the rocks, it's really nice to know the motor can get you out of the situation. I've also read that running a larger HP motor at half-speed will be more fuel efficient than running a smaller one at full speed, so that's another benefit of a larger motor. My short shaft can come up and out of the water when there are large waves and a lot of weight forward in the boat.
The downside is the weight. It does make me a little nervous to leave the motor mounted to the boat when it's on the trailer and going down the road, and it weighs down the back of the boat a little in the water. I'm thinking about an extra big battery or a heavy anchor up in the transom to balance things out.
Steve,
I have a 3.5 2-cycle with just forward no neutral and it's a long shaft. I like the power of it because normally I run it at half throttle but have extra in reserve just in case. It's a 2 cycle so I have to mix gas but I'm lucky if I go through a gallon or two. It weighs 29lbs so that's great. I wish I had neutral for when you are at the dock getting under way. I like having a long shaft because I have read others talk about going forward in the boat and the propeller goes out of the water. Also, if you were in some choppy conditions your prop might also go out of the water. I like everything about my outboard but would love to have neutral. Would not mind having reverse but do not know of anything smaller than a 4hp that has that.
Thanks for all of the feedback so far. I wish this Suzuki did have a centrifugal clutch but it doesn't. I do have the owner's manual and it clearly warns you to be ready to move if she is running. A little problematic as it wanted to kill at very low idle when I ran her in the barrel. That might clear up as I've cleaned out the old fuel and switched to non-oxygenated fuel with a little Seafoam in it. She might not want to move much at her lowest idle. The previous owner made due with it for twenty years so I should give it a whirl before committing to a new one. I've never had a kicker this small so the missing neutral and reverse are minor concerns but she spins around pretty easy so I suppose reverse isn't really a big deal and it weights next to nothing. I had a nice 6hp four stroke on the Hunter that I kind of wish I'd have kept but I do think that's too much motor to hang back there and more power than I'd likely ever need. The C-16's transom is so short I thought I might be able to get away with the short shaft but I do believe I'll go with a long shaft after reading your posts. I really hate cavitation.
Tohatsu 3.5 with neutral! (2 stroke) Miss my old honda 2hp 4 stroke.
Evinrude 4HP with neutral (2 cycle)
I have the 3.5 tohatsu 4 cycle with neutral and forward. swivel for reverse. more than enough power
melvin
State of the art 1952 Evinrude Lightwin 3 HP 2-cycle. Short shaft isn't a problem due to a really nice adjustable stainless steel outboard mount which gets the prop down deep enough for most situations.
(http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt211/greene2108/CopyofDSC00929.jpg)(http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt211/greene2108/DSC00962.jpg)
Mike
2.5 hp Nissan long shaft. Avoid the Honda 2 hp. Yeah, I know there are devotees, but is it noisier than an outboard with water cooling, and the life of the motor is shorter because it runs hotter than the Nissan 2.5. The Nissan has forward-neutral.
Quote from: Steve Ullrich on May 17, 2009, 11:54:52 AM
Hello Folks,
Interested in knowing what people are using for kickers. The 2hp Suzuki that came with my boat is a long shaft with enough power but it doesn't have neutral. She starts moving as soon as you start it so you have be be ready for that. I decided to look through Craig's List and eBay for a used motor. Is a long shaft necessary on a C-16? If I go with an electric trolling motor how much thrust should I be looking for? I'm mostly going to be on inland lakes but occasionally I'll have currents to deal with, Lake Pepin or the St. Croix for instance...
Thanks,
2 h.p. evinrude s/s. If you buy another go with the long shaft, and a little more h.p. would be nice, but the 2 gets the job done. My biggest complaint is the small built in fuel tank and having to refuel in rough seas. BILL
Steve, I now use a 4 hp 4 stroke Yamaha for my cp-16. It is a short shaft but when the bracket swings down has plenty of water. Some features I like- internal tank for about 1 hr of runtime, also fitting and
valve for external tank. Full F/N/R shift. Its a little heavy at 48 lbs. and being a single 4 stroke some vibration, but still a very quiet motor. I get hull speed at 1/3 throttle.
Mike
Quote from: jdonaldson on May 18, 2009, 11:02:38 AM
2.5 hp Nissan long shaft. Avoid the Honda 2 hp. Yeah, I know there are devotees, but is it noisier than an outboard with water cooling, and the life of the motor is shorter because it runs hotter than the Nissan 2.5. The Nissan has forward-neutral.
Your Nissan is a Tohasu! I had many years of service from my little Honda and I don't think it was any louder than my current Tohasu that came with Quahog. Not dumping all that crap exaust oil into the Bay is a big benefit of the Honda four stroke. The Honda pushed my 1800Lb displacement Hunter 212 at or near hull speed with little effort. I had zero maintenance issues with the Honda over my time of ownership. It was reliable and like any other Honda it will likely last decades. It runs no hotter than the equivalent honda 2 hp lawnmower engine it seems to be derived from. The Tohatsu/Nissan needs constant fussing (Mixing oil etc....). Have you owned or used the Honda? I would buy one in a second if I had a buyer for my 2 stroke.
Also being a salt water sailor I prefer the air cooled Honda because it doesn't suck up corrosive salt water and pass it through its delicate internal cooling passages! Anyway I almost never run the thing for more than 15 minutes on an outing. It is a sailboat after all.
The Nissan 2.5 AKA Tohatsu, is a 4-stroke, so no oil in the water. Yes, we owned the Honda 2 hp for several years and hated it.
Quote from: Rick-K on May 19, 2009, 08:49:48 AM
Quote from: jdonaldson on May 18, 2009, 11:02:38 AM
2.5 hp Nissan long shaft. Avoid the Honda 2 hp. Yeah, I know there are devotees, but is it noisier than an outboard with water cooling, and the life of the motor is shorter because it runs hotter than the Nissan 2.5. The Nissan has forward-neutral.
Your Nissan is a Tohasu! I had many years of service from my little Honda and I don't think it was any louder than my current Tohasu that came with Quahog. Not dumping all that crap exaust oil into the Bay is a big benefit of the Honda four stroke. The Honda pushed my 1800Lb displacement Hunter 212 at or near hull speed with little effort. I had zero maintenance issues with the Honda over my time of ownership. It was reliable and like any other Honda it will likely last decades. It runs no hotter than the equivalent honda 2 hp lawnmower engine it seems to be derived from. The Tohatsu/Nissan needs constant fussing (Mixing oil etc....). Have you owned or used the Honda? I would buy one in a second if I had a buyer for my 2 stroke.
I use the Honda BF2D long shaft and love it. It is NOT necessarily noisy because it will push the 16 at 4.5mph at just above idle. If I want to make a lot of noise and use a lot more fuel, I can crank it to wide open and then gain an extra 1.5 mph... but it's really not worth it. The 4cycle has a lot of torque at the low end.
Also, the long shaft is really worth it if you hit rolling waves (typically around the mouth of the harbor when they are bouncing off the seawall and back and forth. Our hulls being short and round and tend to pitch for and aft a lot in those conditions and you will cavotate if you leave the stern for any reason.
just my 2c
Dale
Thanks everyone. I'll watch Craig's List in the Minneapolis area for a long shaft 4 cycle engine between 2 and 4 hp.
Quote from: jdonaldson on May 21, 2009, 08:52:17 AM
The Nissan 2.5 AKA Tohatsu, is a 4-stroke, so no oil in the water. Yes, we owned the Honda 2 hp for several years and hated it.
I did not know the 2.5 was a 4 stroke! Most folks who have lived with the little Honda think they are just great. Perhaps you had a lemon. It appears that the Tohastsu/Nissan might be a good alternate to the honda (for fresh water especially). If my Tohatsu quit today I wouldn't waste any money fixing it (I do maintain it however).
ick
My CP 16 came with an old British Seagull. According to the model number it was made between 69 and 79, evidently they did not change the design much since they started making them back in the 30's. Looks much older than it actually is. It is not currently running, however I am going through it and hopefully will have it up and going soon. I suspect it makes a much better anchor than an outboard motor but I do want it running because it is such a novelty. For now I have a Sea King (Montgomery Ward) 3.5hp 2 cycle works great.
Smitty
Put the big one (5 hp) on our 1969 Westerly Pageant (23 ft. at least 2.5 tons when laden) in 1978. Against even a mild current, you were virtually dead in the water. Used a 25 gas: 1 oil mix which produced an enormous cloud of stinking oil smoke, and it fouled the water at an incredible rate. The design was astoundingly primitive -- even for the Brits -- and it deserved to die, die, die as a manufactured item. I sold it 3 months after I bought it, bought the early Honda twin cyl. 7.5 hp 4-stroke and never looked back. The Honda took us all over the Chesapeake many hundreds of miles and for years and years.
Don't pollute the water using it as an anchor. Send to a recycling yard and watch it crushed for scrap.
Quote from: Smitty on May 27, 2009, 11:03:24 AM
My CP 16 came with an old British Seagull. According to the model number it was made between 69 and 79, evidently they did not change the design much since they started making them back in the 30's. Looks much older than it actually is. It is not currently running, however I am going through it and hopefully will have it up and going soon. I suspect it makes a much better anchor than an outboard motor but I do want it running because it is such a novelty. For now I have a Sea King (Montgomery Ward) 3.5hp 2 cycle works great.
Smitty
I understand this one calls for a 10:1 mix. WOW. I can imagine the cloud of smoke and the oil slick it leaves behind. Like I said I want to make it run, just cause. Probably keep it for a conversation piece. Strange, weird and primitive looking.
Smitty
For 5 hp AIR COOLED 4 cycle Briggs and Straton offers a dandy little outboard.
I have seen them new for around $700 bucks on the net. See Frappr for pic & description.
Can't be a 10:1 MIX. A 40 TO 50 :1 maybe. I don't think it would run at 10:1.
It would have great compression, since fluids don't compress. Oil won't vaporize but the gas will and the flame temperature would be so cold that the oil won't burn very well, but fouled spark plugs are in it's future.
skip.
Google British Seagull, everything from 1931 to 1978 was 10 to 1, besides it says so on the motor. I know it does not seem right but that is what it calls for.
Smitty
Only the Brits...Not that I don't believe you...but having an exclusive 'Nothing but British Motor Car' restoration shop for years in Cedarburg, Wisconsin, Fourintune Garages Incorporated, I understand how screwy motors from the UK can be.
So what is the Seagull outboard oil weight recommended? Just curious.
To illustrate the V-12 aeroplane fighter engines from WWII built by the Brits had oil tanks sized to run out of oil at about the same time as the fuel ran out. They could not fix the oil consumption so they just engineered around it. Wait!!
That sounds like some of the churns I worked on, to be sure.
How cool is that?
skip.
The website I found simply said to use high quality 2 cycle oil, I assume an SAE 30 non detergent oil would work since that is what everyone used before they started making products labeled "2 cycle oil". I laugh every time I look at the thing and think about the 10:1 ratio. One guy on a Seagull forum bragged that his survived total immersion twice, no doubt at 10:1 the thing was so oily as to be impervious to water damage. Probably able to locate it by the oil slick on the surface. I'm pretty sure its going to wind up hanging on the wall of my storage as a conversation piece.
Smitty
And well it should, Smitty.
Hang her high. With pride.
"This once powered MY boat. Well sort of"
skip
I once owned a British Seagull motor and bought it new, 1978. I picked it up from the dealer and it came in a wooden crate from England. I still have the owners manual and yes it ran on a 1:10 oil/gas mix, anything from 2 -stoke oil to SAE 30. The deal was that this mixture would avoid corrosion in the engine. The workmanship was interesting with aluminum, stainless steel, and bronze and a painted brass gas tank. It was somewhat hard to start- wind the rope around the open flywheel top, prime carb, ( this was a button that pushed the float down to flood carb. ( 10:1 gas mix ran into the water). Then choke and pull rope,- repeat. The motor was water cooled with a muffler but was still rather loud.
What made me sell it was during an overnight on my CP-16 my anchor dragged in soft mud. I heard waves breaking and woke-up 5' from a seawall. Well at 1 AM I proceeded the above starting procedure. The engine DID start and I was able to safely reset the anchor. After that I bought an Evinrude 4 hp OB with full shift.
Mike
"It is not currently running, however I am going through it and hopefully will have it up and going soon."
There isn't a lot to them so you should be able to get it up and running. They are cool engines in that archaic way. I have a Silver Century Plus longshaft that runs great.
Seagulls appear to be very much a love hate type of things. Those that love them really love them, those that hate them really really hate them. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground.
Shawn
Hi Mike,
I appreciate the clear pics you posted. I've got a similar mount to yours, only without the red handle shown. I've got a 4hp suzuki long shaft.
Two main problems:
First, the motor is really heavy and next to impossible to lift out of the water from inside the boat (and even harder from in the water...ha ha).
I'd be happy to leave the motor dragging in the water when under sail, except that the drag from the shaft makes it impossible to make the sharp turn when you flip the sail in the other direction (I think that's tacking, but not sure). I only have the problem in one direction (the mount is on the L).
Anyway, although I clearly am new at this, I have found that if I heave the motor up out of the water (i.e. raise the mount up), then I can easily make sure turns in both directions, and all is well.
Problem is: *I* can't heave it out. I always have to have some big guy with me to do it, and I'd like to be able to take the girls out solo.
Any suggestions? Do you have the same problem with drag? With lifting the motor out?
I've been thinking about a smaller motor, but do sail where there's current and a smaller motor might not do the job (i.e. get me back to the dock when the wind isn't cooperating with my limited skill range...).
Thanks,
Liane
Hello Liane,
The red handle you saw in my pic's (that you said your mount doesn't have) is used to release the spring tension on the mount to help you lift the motor out of the water. I actually have to push downward a little to get the handle to release easily. Once the handles is moved the spring is powerful enough to lift Puppy Power (1952 Evinrude 3 hp) out of the water. I still use the tilt feature on the motor to raise it even further from the water. Any amount of my prop or lower unit in the water while under sail really adds drag. It feels like releasing the emergency brake on your car as you pop it out of the water when under sail.
There is nothing wrong with having .."some big guy with me to do it..." but maybe you should look into a spring assisted mount and/or a lighter kicker to help you out. It is surprising how many 16'ers rig up an electric trolling motor as a kicker and they all seem to like it. Can't imagine anything lighter or easier for you to handle.
Mike
You might try first to push down on the outboard hanging on the extended motor mount while at the same time pulling the 'trigger' used by the hand to release the catch and then pulling up on the 'trigger' and outboard, raising the darn thing out of the water. To really raise the motor to it's max motor mount height I have to fold the handle closed and turn the outboard 90 degrees with my internal gas cap vent closed.
Additionally I made some 2 inch rubber blocks that;
1~Pulls the outboard 2" further away from the transom.
2~Lowers my short shaft 5 hp 2 cycle that weighs 53 lbs 2" inch more into the water.
It is not possible to pick-up the motor till that saw-tooth locking bar is fully released from the 'trigger' that has the two finger horizontal bar to pull on. I sanded mine down smooth, and I had to grind a flat surface on the 'trigger' bar so it would clear the stern rub rail when at it's max closed height. Ground almost to the hole that the finger bar is inserted in, and greased the thing up giving the mechanism a little more wiggle room without effecting the 'holding' operation of the motor mount.
Your probably tired of hearing. It's all in the technique.
skip.
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the responses.
Mike -- when you release the springs on your mount, do they actually lift the motor up and back into the upper position? i.e. no manpower needed?
If so, what kind of mount is that? And how much does the motor weigh? Mine is 57 lbs.
Also, when your motor is in the water, do you have enough room for the throttle shaft to be perpendicular to the propeller shaft (as it would normally be)? There is too little room in my set up, so that the throttle shaft is in the upright/storage position, parallel to the propeller shaft. It works no problem, but I'm just curious. Do you have a picture of your mount set up with the motor on it?
I will post a picture of my set up, and see what you guys think. I think the catch Skip described doesn't even catch on mine -- it may be set up wrong. I'll get a pic posted. Stay Tuned! Thanks a ton. Liane
Liane,
My mount is a Garelick. This website shows the diagram and explains the operation of the spring loaded mount. I see that the smallest one they list supports motors up to 59 lbs and their larger models support 118 lbs. http://www.garelick.com/files/12.185.pdf
When my motor is in the fully down position the tiller handle is still horizontal (or very close to it).
Mine is a Garelick too. This is the version that I have...
http://www.boatersworld.com/product/366480515.htm