Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association

In general, does it take a wind speed, double that of hull speed to reach hull speed?  We are talking on a windward course for a displacement hull.

Another way of asking is how much wind does it take for a boat to reach hull speed?

I know each boat is different, and am not looking for specifics, just rule of thumbs if they exist.

I am thinking that a wind that is nearly overpowering the rig is just slightly more than is needed to maintain hull speed.  So does that mean that anything less just won't get you to hull speed?

Let's have it.

Elibobeli:

That's a good question.  I am curious as well.  Maybe someone who has a GPS could log some data and let us know.  You could set up parameters for an experiment and sail daily until all the conditions were met.

I've never seen any data out  there that suggests a percentage of wind will equal hull speed.  Probably too many parameters to control for to generalize for all boats.  IMHO, it would need to be set up for a specific model, dedicate which jib to use, and consider a foil rudder vs. a flat plate rudder.

Anyone out there have the time, tools, and desire to gather data?

The question you guys are asking it too complex to narrow down a hull speed verus windspeed  formula. That is why we have speed radian diagrams for almost every type of boat. My CP-23 will reach hull speed when the wind is about 20knts and on my beam somewhere. I have a pretty much stock boat, with exception of a mid boom traveler.  And that is without to many swells.  It gets complex doesn't it?

Newt:
   This isn't abut hull speed, but do you feel the mid-boom traveller system has been an improvement over the stock mainsheet setup? I've been considering this upgrade...whadayasay?
   I don't know of any formulas pertaining to hull speed and wind speed. There are way too many variables. Sometimes I spend too much time looking at instruments, analyzing, trimming this a bit and that a bit and I forGet why I'm there...to enjoy the wind in my face and feel the yacht move through the water...FUN!
   Bob23, on the hard in NJ

Hi ya Bob!
What are you doing on the hard? Don't ya know boats float better in the water? :) But while you are there I would put in a midboom traveler. Over the top of the cabin would be my first choice, but mine is just aft of the slats for the cabin door- and it works great. BTw, since our boats are so small, just about any traveler will do. I gave away the last traveler from an old catalina I parted out. Just kinda look around, you should be able to pick one up cheap.

What am I doing on the hard? Being bored to tears, that's what! I had rotator cuff surgery on 9/11 and I hauled out "Koinonia" early- August 5th, I think.
I'll look into the mid-boom traveler this winter. On another note, are you or anyone else planning to be at the show in Annapolis October 9-12, me thinks. If so, we should email cell phone numbers and plan a meet-up.
Whadayasay?
Bored23

Newt et al,

Alright, now I know that data does exist.  Now, how do I get it for my boat, an Eclipse.  I don't have wind speed indicator but do have a hand held GPS.  My dealer informed me that reefing time is about 18 knots, so I assume that is also the time I should be able to get hull speed.  I don't try to worry too much about boat speed, but as a new sailor, I do want to acheive the most from myself and the boat without trying to get milk from a turnip.

If I knew what to expect from the boat, then I could work toward those expectations.

Thanks for the input.

Without trying to appear arrogant ( That is way  too easy for me to do) may I suggest that you should concentrate on sailing the boat, sail trim and getting yourself seaworthy. Speed will come later and is only part of the equation. It is the journey, man! Using your boat as a worthy tool for transport and enjoyment is far more important than speed. I am find much more fulfillment getting my boat into the slip on sail and oar in and hour than 5 minutes of motoring through the breakwater.
Now that said, I realize that I am a purist. I am the flyfisher that built his own flies, leader rod and reel. I teach desert survival to help kids experience life without anything, so I realize that I may be a bit far out on the curve.
But the more you sail- I think you will eventually agree- the more it touches your soul and not your GPS generated numbers. :)

Well put, Newt!
   That is the main reason I chose not to race. I didn't want to get tricked into thinking of sailing in terms of points and seconds. Besides that, I don't enjoy loosing. Besides that also, I'm too much of a dreamer to bother with trying to beat someone around a mark...I just enjoy the feel of "Koinonia" and I moving over the water. Somehow, after a good day of sailing, the soul is refreshed.
   Bob23, dreaming.......................

We going sailing one of these days Bob, just as soon as I make it to the east coast. :) You just craw on to your boat and hold your shoulder while you give the commands- I'll do the rest of it. Arrgg me mates!

Newt and Bob,

I posed a question and Paul wondered the same thing.  I never mentioned racing nor want to entertain the idea.  While I appreciate the suggestion, Newt, it doesn't help me with my answer.  When I first started fly fishing, I would ask what kind of fish were in a body of water, since throwing a bass fly to a brookie is a waste of time.  If someone were to have answered my question with "Man, don't worry about it, just enjoy casting and feel the rush of the river," I still woudn't know what kind of fish was in that body of water.  Had I thrown the bass bug repeatedly to the brookies (and not caught anything), I would have wondered if I was doing something wrong.  Yeh, I would have been doing something wrong.  I would have been trying to get milk from a turnip.  While it may be enjoyable to some to try to get milk from a turnip,  I would like to know that it could actually happen before trying. 

So does anyone want to discuss Hull speed vs. wind speed?  It may help me being a better seaman.

Hull speed vs wind speed. IMHO, they're related but not directly. Some boats will obviously do better to windward/downwind than others. The sails you're using will greatly affect your downwind speed too, a spinnaker will get the boat downwind faster (approaching hull speed) in lighter wind than will a working jib. There are just too many variables to develop a rule of thumb.

I don't think there are too many things about sailing that you can apply a rule of thumb.

One thing's for sure, A downwind run with a following sea in this boat in a stiff breeze can be fun! The boat really keeps the captain on his toes. I love the feel of the tiller wanting to stall just before the boat rounds up. I've never rounded up unintentionally, but sometimes it feels like you're balancing on the head of a pin :)

Eli:
   Sure didn't want to poke fun at your question with my philosophical view of sailing. I, too, like to sail in the most efficient manner; I think it's part of the fun! Probably the best thing is to know the hull speed of your vessel, use a GPS, and start experimenting.
   An interesting fact, my 1985 23/2 has a theoretical hull speed of about 6.02 knots yet we've sailed at 6.3. And I'm sure she'll go faster and we are not talking about 50 kt. winds here, just average sailing conditions maybe 20-30kts. How? Remember that theoretical hull speed takes no wind resistance into account and assumes a smooth underbody.
   I think our common goal is to ALL become better seamen. I just don't want to become a boring one, over-analyzing and missing the beauty and wonder of it all. Not infering that you are, of course.
   Milk from a turnip? Maybe it's me but I fail to see the correlation.
   Bob23, off to have a turnip milk and Black Goslings cocktail!

FWIW: I think one can study the parameters I outlined above and thoroughly enjoy the essence of sailing at the same time; the science of sailing and the spirit of sailing at the same time.  One only needs to have the tools and document the parameters while getting in that "sailing frame of mind."

This link might help.  Sail Boats (http://www.ipass.net/sailboat/)

Check out the articles.  Also, check out "performance."

Peace and keep on enjoying the learning curve.

To all:
   I found a lot of helpful calculations on www.sailingusa.info/
There is even a hull speed calculator for the math-challenged like myself.
Bob23, g'night!

Thanks to all for the topic suggestions.  I will look forward to my research.

Bob,  "Milk from a turnip", being an impossibility correlates to trying to reach hull speed of 5 knots in 5 knots of wind or 10 knots."  If it is impossible then I don't need to try.  What I am trying to answer by you gentlemen's input is where does the impossible become possible, or what wind does it take to reach hull speed, in general, of course.  I'll try to always make for best speed with max enjoyment.  If I have enough wind, and can't reach hull speed, then it's me or the boat, not the wind.

Don't want to beat a dead horse, so I will leave it at that.  Winter's coming so I'll enjoy my remaining days to sail.

Get out there and sail your boat. Try things...then! Suddenly you'll hit the sweet spot and off you go.

Put that vertical wrinkle alone the mast in the main sail and then just sheet in the boom, holding course, till the wrinkle shakes out. The looser the sail in this manner the faster she'll sail. skip.

Allan:
  Yeah, I got the milk from a turnip thing...just having a bit of cabin-fever induced fun. By the way, what do you sail?
  Bob23

Have been following this topic for a couple and could no longer jumping in, so here goes. The best description I've heard about performance was that your boat has limits imposed by hull/rig designand a host of other factors. Meaning that every boat is truly unique, the difference is the way in which they are sailed. In racing the object is to sail her to her optimum and commit as few technical errors as possible.

So I agree with both sides of this question : to always try to maximize performance vs sit back and relax we're moving. After all we all have our own reasons for sailing, which probably from time to time.

Eliboli - I believe this slight friction I sensed has arisen because you are bringing a horse to a donkey show. Most of the folks who own Compacs do so because of their performance character. These boats are designed for the sit back and relax kind of sailing, so most of the folks participating in this forum aren't inclined to be concerned about speed.

I accept that the Eclipse model appears to be a variance or departure from the traditional Hutchins design criteria so you may well be a different kind of customer for Compac, with more of an eye toward speed performance. By the way, the reincarnation of the CP16 as the Legend does offer some tantalizing possibilities. The three stay rig would allow a fully battened main with a square or near square top (a very high performance configuration). Add a high aspect fixed or retractable ballast keel and polish it up with a bow sprit to fly a flat asymmetrical. You could be talkin' some serious performance here. Wait a minute, aren't there already a bunch of boats already available that fit that description?

So my whole point is if you really want to get optimum performance, first read some of the plenty already written by the experts about sail trim, and practice on your own boat. That being said, the caveat is that the results of proper sail trim aren't as dramatic on "relax and enjoy" designs as it would be on a all out racing design. Good sail trim knowledge is always an asset but if you really wish to squeak out every bit of performance you might consider signing as crew for one of the local sail race boats like a J boat. You will be able to see clearly the effect of proper sail trim, and apply to your more relaxed outings on your own boat.

Not to diminish your question, but hull speed is not only difficult to predict (manufacturers probably can't tell you accurately in most cases) but almost irrelevant. If you always sail her to her potential at some point you will begin to understand and feel her best performance regardless of the true wind speed. I am old school and advocate that as a novice (we probably all are to some degree) you should develop your intuitive interpretation of sailing before you get distracted by all the high tech go fast gadgets.

If you are sitting around all winter and  looking for some way of relating to sailing from your den, and if you have read the sailing magazines from cover to cover, and there is no sailing on ESPN, and you've watched Waterworld 3 times in the last month, then I suppose tackling your question would be a worthy endeavor. You'll come out next spring eager to put your conclusions to the test.

Remember - "it's not the destination, it's the journey"

Ron

Hello elibobeli

To answere your original question No it does not take close to overpowering wind to reach hull speed.  Not even close.

If we go with the twice wind speed to reach hull speed that would be only 10 mph to 5 mph.  If that makes a person comfortable live with that and happy sailing.

Personally I am happy in a steady breeze of 5 mph up to 15 mph and if it is consistant 20 and slightly higher.  Don't like those high gusts on top of high wind though.

Happy sailing
mrb

Elibobeli and MrB:

MrB, I agree.  The CP-16 really feels her best between 5 and 15 wind speed.  Of course, depends on sail configuration etc., but I generally don't worry about "hull speed" as much as feeling she's in the groove and doing well.  What a great feeling!  I'd estimate that somewhere in that range, hull speed is achieved, but I haven't measured it.  Actually, I like the challenge of sailing her smartly in higher wind speeds.  I think my comfort level begins to wane around 20 to 25, but that's just me.  ;)  She can handle more than I can.  :D

Which leads me to the question of overpowering.  She can be overpowered in a wide variety of conditions.  Simply depends on the sails used and wind strength.  IMHO, another factor is the rudder.  The foil rudder allows for better performance.  Also consider that she'll round up when overpowered.  You'll know it when it happens.  Kinda scary at first, but upon contemplating the situation (after a few beers on the hard) you may conclude as most of us have that she's designed well and really can handle more than the sailor. :P  :D

Most of us who sail north of the tropics use the winter months to study sailing related things or do upgrades.  All can benefit from studying good seamanship.  I have found Chapman's as a good reference.  I have thoroughly enjoyed John Rousmenere's tome on the subject.  These can give details in the matter of sailing safely in a variety of conditions.  Happy winter reading.

For all, I am sailing an Eclipse.  Thanks to all.  I'll look for the groove, probably in the Spring, unless Fall throws me another nice Saturday.

I have learned a lot in a dozen times out and look forward to the next time.

Hi Folks

My  last quarter on subject of hull speed for what it's worth.  Hull speed is a factor of the hull, not size of sails or engine.  Sails and engine size of coarse will allow boat to reach hull speed but then for every fraction of increased speed will require greater and great power until boat sinks or comes apart.  The reason for sinking pull apart is that as speed increases the wave that hull creates as it moves through the water begins to stretch out farther and farther from the stern of boat. The stern will begin to squat and sink lower and lower until it is pulled under water or suction becomes so strong that back of boat pulls out.  Granted those to are the extreams and highly unlikely unless skipper has been drinking to many absinthes.

A salmon fisherman years ago had a nice Monterey style boat.  Thought boat was slow so re power with larger engine.  He would crank that engine open exceed hull speed until green water swept decks from bow to stern.  lots of fuel no more speed.
My Father and others tried to explain but he was happy. Don't know what Finlay happend to boat but sure that nobody who knew how he treated it bought it.

I personally like to sail boat to max when wind cooperates.  Other times sit back and enjoy what comes my way.

If speed was my goal I would by a semidisplacement or plaining hull and enjoy the speed.

To figure speed of  displacement hull divide speed by square root of water line. A ratio of 1.34 is upper end of speed.  Example speed 6knots divide by 4 ( 16 ft wl.)gives ratio of 1.5 no go.  Speed 5.5 divided by 4 = 1.37 Therefore I am happy when boat is puttering along in a good breeze at or near hull speed.  when I had Coronado 27 7 knots was about it and I was happy.

Have fun and thats my last word mrb

Eli:
My experience with an Eclipse is about 2.5 - 3 times actual wind to reach hull speed as a rule of thumb.. I had much better performace with Genoa sheeted outside the shrouds then back to the jib cars on any point of sail other than close hauled. I also found that an Eclipse likes to sail flatter than most boats, max. heel about 15 degrees. I'd like to try a larger Genoa about 135 instead of the 115. I just guessing here, but maybe the factory feels safer with a 115 Genoa due to the fractional rig design with no backstay. Everything is a compromise if you factor the quick mastendr system versus the size of the sails. There is not much written regarding rig and sail tuning for an Eclipse, Maybe you could due the tests, mess around with the shrouds,forestay tension, mast rake, outhaul,downhaul, traveler position, boom vang tension, Jib cars, etc. in differant wind speeds. It would be real valuable info.
regards,
Rob, B.E. (boatyard engineer)

Rob & Eli,
I have heard that the eclipse is a line up replacement for the 19. If that is so, then considering your statement (Rob) about keeping her within 15 degree heel, it does sound like my CP19.

Here is my take on sails for my boat, though the Eclipse may be a better windward performer than th CP19. For the most part I figure sailing close hauled will only be useful in fairly calm water to get a decent boat speed, otherwise I'll be easing off the wind to keep speed up. The 110 is really close to being as good as a genoa in most of these conditions, and I have a furler on the 110. Given that the shape is badly distorted when furling a genoa, I've decided to leave the 110. However, what I believe will be most of my windward sailing, close reaching, can be done by the use of a flat asymmetrical spinnaker. I chose a North G3 because it is flat enough to close reach, and is also suitable for downwind, and can be sailed dead downwind with a whisker pole. Now, I have limited experience with this combination so far, and will update the list when I have more specifics on how it is working out. This approach seemed to me to keep it simple, give some good performance, and avoid the sheeting problems sited with the wide based shrouds, and provide some improvement in offwind sailing.

To add to this however, it is important to note that I have just replaced my main with a flatter cut full batten sail that I got from Rolley Tasker. Now my main is an important part of sailing to windward, whereas before it was hopeless trying to close haul.

So most of the time I can sail with main and 110, set the spinnaker when appropriate, nice combination, and simple.

I would certainly invite your view of this approach.

Thanks,
Ron

Oh yeah a P.S. to my last post on this topic. The lack of a backstay does invite the idea of a big roach full batten main - wow what power you'd have along with a code 0 or flat asymmetrical. The eclipse has a plumb bow and reverse transom for a optimized waterline, and a deep centerboard for good pointing ability. I had a Picnic cat for a while and loved the Mastender system, it is the difference between a boat being really a trailer sailor or not.

Ron

Quote from: elibobeli on September 29, 2008, 01:22:04 PM

If I knew what to expect from the boat, then I could work toward those expectations.

Thanks for the input.

Expect to have fun and work toward that expectation.

Just a suggestion.

Curtis

Quote from: elibobeli on October 02, 2008, 04:09:56 PM

So does anyone want to discuss Hull speed vs. wind speed?  It may help me being a better seaman.

OK.  Hull speed is the knee of a speed power curve above which it takes quite a bit more power to move just a bit faster.  Hull speed is mostly related to the properties of water and the tendency of a boat to move more quickly at speeds that don't have the stern overtake the bow wake.

That means that it doesn't take much at all to reach 50% of hull speed.  More wind to reach 80%.  Much more to reach 90%.  Quite favorable conditions to reach 100%.  And some unusually good conditions to exceed 100% though it can  be done (surfing will do it, for example, and surfing with a CP23 is darn good fun, regardless of what percentage of hull speed is attained).

Hull speed is estimated as 1.34 times LWL squared but that is only an estimate.  Actual hull speed depends on the hull shape (beamy vs narrow, depth of the hull, wetted surface) making it very hard to get an exact number.

So what does this have to do with wind speed.  Very little actually.  Most boats go fastest on a beam reach.  Some are a bit better a little to windward of a beam reach, some better on more of a broad reach.  Most are usually a bit slower on a run than a reach though I mentioned that surfing can give you a push to get you going a bit faster on a run.  Four foot waves will do nicely (QED).

How fast any boat can go if sailed well depends mostly on the point of sail and less on the wind speed.  Compacs don't sail all that well in light air but stand out as the wind picks up.  At some point reefing is needed to keep the boat "sailing on her lines".  Too much heel adds drag so reducing sail beyond some point makes her sail faster.  OTOH - keeping the sail up makes you go slower but burying the rail gives the kids a thrill so sometimes not going as fast is more fun.  At what point the greatest efficiency is achieved varies with each boat.  If on a given boat you can flatten sail effectively, it may be at a higher wind speed than if your sail controls (or worse and older baggy sail) limit your ability to flatten sail.

Waves also tend to slow a boat's progress.  Where there is wind there are waves.  The longer the fetch, and the longer the wind have been sustained, the bigger the waves.  So waves are also a factor.  A steady wind also makes it easier to achieve a better boat speed than a gusty or shifting wind.

It may be that you can go fastest on a reach in moderate conditions that come up suddenly but steady wind and yield fairly flat water and a steady wind.

You might be better off asking how to improve your boat speed for a given set of conditions which is along the lines of the answers you got.  For most CP owners with older CPs there are improvements to the boat that will help.  The Eclipse seems to be set up better out of the factory (for example, with a traveller) so best at this point to focus on basic sail trim first (sheeting), then sail twist (getting the whole sail flowing well top to bottom), then the right sail draft for conditions (flattening as wind picks up, increasing draft in lighter conditions).

The point of my earlier short post was that you'll probably enjoy sailing more if you focus first on just having fun and second on whether you are going as fast as you possible could.

Curtis

Curtis,

Well said.  8)

here is a web site that might be interesting, a little removed from the topic, but close enough, try and see.

http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html

tom

   being that we are all com-pac sailors, by nature we are cruisers not racers. that said, the performance of my 16 is of some concern. last summer my wife and i were sailing in sustained 12 mph winds. sailing to windward we achieved 5.3 knots with a bit more on the gusts. it was kind of fun trying to best that the rest of the day. when that little boat hits a groove its like flying even though shes relatively slow. at seasons end i bought a new mainsail and i cant wait to get that extra .4 knots of speed. like most people i want my cars to perform to their potential guess i expect the same from my little boat.

I'm more or less in the same boat... New sails under the Christmas tree, blizzard outside.  The OEM main was blown out.  We should be able to get a bit more speed out of her with new sails I would think.  New 135 genoa as well... that can't hurt a thing either.  I've also purchased a replacement blade for the rudder from Ida Sailor.  All in all I have a lot to look forward to playing with in the spring.

Quote from: kickingbug1 on December 24, 2009, 05:24:17 PM
   being that we are all com-pac sailors, by nature we are cruisers not racers. that said, the performance of my 16 is of some concern. last summer my wife and i were sailing in sustained 12 mph winds. sailing to windward we achieved 5.3 knots with a bit more on the gusts. it was kind of fun trying to best that the rest of the day. when that little boat hits a groove its like flying even though shes relatively slow. at seasons end i bought a new mainsail and i cant wait to get that extra .4 knots of speed. like most people i want my cars to perform to their potential guess i expect the same from my little boat.

These are kind of interesting.

skip.

I've had one for years, specifically, a Weems & Plath #105. A very useful item.  They've been around for years. I first used one in the Navy to help pilot a destroyer.  Are these becoming rare enough to merit special mention?  I hope not, they are far superior to any of the digital alternatives.

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/-nsr02.html

Thanks Henry, that's pretty cool.  I ordered one for the hell of it.  Might never use it but maybe it will be fun to play with or teach the kids how to use.

Quote from: HenryC on January 01, 2010, 11:33:11 AM
I've had one for years, specifically, a Weems & Plath #105. A very useful item.  They've been around for years. I first used one in the Navy to help pilot a destroyer.  Are these becoming rare enough to merit special mention?  I hope not, they are far superior to any of the digital alternatives.

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/-nsr02.html

Quote from: HenryC on January 01, 2010, 11:33:11 AMthey are far superior to any of the digital alternatives.

OK, I understand that sailing generally attracts "purists" to it's sport. That said, I'm sorry but there is no way you can convince me that any mechanical "calculator" is far superior to any digital alternative. In fact, in an apples to apples comparison, comparing your cute little spinny spin calculator to my chart plotter would be just plain silly.

Now before you old "purists" get all wound up, I'm not talking about "What if the batteries run dead?" or "What if nuclear winter blocks out GPS satellites?" or "What if you sail off the edge of the earth?" I'm talking about apples to apples, daily sailing, heading out for a couple days, can't find a camp site in the middle of the night sailing. An affordable chart plotter is an invaluable tool and your nautical slide rule is a cute little nautical "decoration". A reminder of how navigating used to suck before GPS.

Oh, and the sextant, oil lamp and chip log? They're decorations too!

Happy New Year!  (Thank God it's 2010 and not 1910)

--Greg

Oh Greg, one of life's lession is backup for everything.......1910 wasn't that bad except for the plumbing......Phil

Digital technology is superior.  IF you need to calculate your speed in milliseconds to ten decimal places precision, or if you need speed reports several hundred times a second, or if you and your crew have learned to integrate all your digital systems so that you are constantly getting updated tactical reports on digital readouts and vision screens like on the bridge of a Klingon battle cruiser.    But if you don't know all the algebraic variations of D = Rt by heart or can't convert decimal speeds to minutes and seconds in your head you're just an accident waiting to happen. And you will.  I guarantee it.

The best "electronic" navigators are nuclear submarine quartermasters (after all, they haven't got much choice), but they get that way through constant drills and training, much more than any amateur and even most professionals ever get.  And they still manage to run aground on charted reefs in plainly marked harbors every now and then.   They do so because electronics, no matter how dependable or accurate they may be, are not instinctive and automatic.  They impose on us  an alien and unnatural way to communicate with machines. When you're tired or scared or disoriented you will screw up, just like you can even with primitive tech.  The difference is that if you screw up with analog tools your experience and your judgment tells you immediately.

If you're used to pushing a button and getting an answer, the day your equipment tells you gibberish; whether because of a  malfunction or the much more common  operator error,  you will never notice, or worse, you'll freeze and be unable to trust any of your instruments at all.  Oops! Another GPS-assisted grounding.

Honestly, Henry. Your purist angle, combined with your literary ability surely makes a navigation slide rule sound like a better option (if not a more romantic one). But really...have you ever used a chart plotter? (and I don't mean that in a condescending manner). Reading your post sounds like if you use a chart plotter you'll forget how to keep a watch...or if you use an auto tiller you'll forget how to manually steer a boat. I can just imagine: "Uh...Honey, the tiller pilot has stopped working and I can't remember which way that stick in the cockpit has to go in order to steer the boat. We're doomed!" We're talking about little cruising sailboats, not Klingon battle cruisers...and by the way, my chart plotter does light up with digital readouts and vision screens. With just a glance I know my speed, the depth, heading, where my next nav marker is, how long before I reach it a the present speed, what time I'm expected to arrive at my destination...heck, even gives me the water temp, tides and currents. But I don't think any average mariner replaces "navigating" with some electronic device. Reminds me of the story of the retired couple that just bought a brand new motor home after retirement. First trip out, they get on the highway and with the husband driving, he sets the cruise control and heads back to make himself a sandwich. Sure it's a funny story, but is it true...eh...I don't know. Kinda like all them stories of power boaters. Every sailer has an arsenal of stories about a power boater.

And by the way, saying "if you don't know all the algebraic variations of D = Rt by heart or can't convert decimal speeds to minutes and seconds in your head you're just an accident waiting to happen." I find a little insulting. I consider myself a person of above average intelligence and I've heard from others that my seamanship is at least above average and I can tell you with a straight face, I know not the algebraic variations of D = Rt by heart nor can I convert decimal speeds to minutes and seconds in my head. And I also don't think I'm better than a fellow boater simply because I own a sailboat or I can tell the difference between starboard and port with barely a moments thought.

A navigating tool is just that...a tool...like a hammer. Owning one does not not impart to it's owner the knowledge to build a house, however building a house without one would be difficult. The same for navigating tools. I prefer a technology solution over your preference for classic, purist, old-school. Does that make my tool better? Is a hammer better than a saw for building a house?

--Greg

Greg, me thinks you protest to much......you sound like me rationizing my latest and expensive boat purchase to my wife....every thing you say is true, but don't forget how to add just because you have a calculator.........Phil

As a matter of fact, I've never used a chart plotter.  For small boats it's way too much machinery to have to worry about managing when piloting really isn't that difficult.  It might come in very handy for navigating a deep draft vessel in a narrow channel in a fog, but for most recreational boating its a bit much.

Am I opposed to technology?  Of course not. It would be irresponsible to not have a GPS aboard these days. I carry a hand-held and I plot my fixes on the chart.  But I also lay out a course and  a traditional DR track, which I frequently update with visual bearings (if I have the time and visibility) and, yes, more GPS fixes when appropriate. There is no need for one to be used INSTEAD of the other. The point is that the technology provides the positional data, but the navigation is done by hand and eye.  I either know exactly where I am, or I know immediately when I don't. 

There is a good reason for this, not just purist fanaticism and Luddite traditionalism.  Sure, the software can keep track of where you are and provide a visual display of the situation, but the entire operation becomes one of managing the software, not driving the boat.  I work with software every day (I'm a computer mapping specialist and Geographic Information Systems analyst), and I see the same disturbing trends in my industry that I see on the water.  I've had people with Master's degrees in GIS (can you imagine that, a graduate degree in how to memorize a user interface?) that are actually proud of the fact that they can't tell the difference between latitude and longitude. Automation is fine for doing those things that people can't do well, but when we rely on it exclusively we lose a grasp of the fundamentals and that intuition that should always be there in the back of a a seaman's head to warn him "Whoa...that just doesn't seem right, let me double check that."  I see it on the job all the time; the maps come out of the plotters or flash up on the monitors with this air of legitimacy which can be quite misleading. Garbage in, garbage out.

Since I am one of those throwbacks that  knows celestial, I am occasionally asked by offshore- bound yachtsmen if they should invest in a sextant and the training to master it.  I counsel them against it, since GPS units are extremely cheap and reliable, you can always keep a spare hand-held or two in the chart table drawer.  You are much more likely to drop your sextant over the side than for all your GPS units to go on the fritz at once.  You are better off learning first aid, or diesel engine repair, or how to cook.   But the fact remains, if you take the trouble to learn celestial, you will also learn nautical astronomy, cartography, geography and mathematics, as well as piloting and dead reckoning and emergency navigation techniques.   Maybe traditional navigation is obsolete, but no one should go to sea who doesn't know how to maintain a DR track or plot a running fix.  And if you don't know what those terms mean, someone needs to stuff you out of one of those little round windows. : )

Incidentally: 

Distance = Rate X Time

Time = Distance / Rate

Rate = Distance / Time

Sure, if you prefer you can use a pocket calculator, but you still have to remember what to key in and in what order.

Henry, I never said or assumed you were against technology. You were the one that made the statement about your nav slide rule being far superior to digital alternatives...and you haven't even tried a modern digital alternative?

Apparently, our tools for navigation do the same thing because, despite my lack of paper charts, nautical slide rule, or handheld GPS, I also either know exactly where I am, or I know immediately when I don't. And this summer, when I was about 20 miles NE of Marathon, FL, trying to get to the Channel 5 bridge (the first high bridge from Hawk's Channel in the Atlantic to the ICW on the inside), and this hit:


(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i156/gjferg/P7250006.jpg)

I still knew EXACTLY where I was...where the lee shore was...our leeward direction and progression...our speed (over 6 kts under a double reefed main alone)...our depth under the keel...the charted depth of the water ahead. And I had to do nothing to prepare my chart plotter for the weather. I couldn't imagine even trying to manage paper charts and slide rules and hand held GPSsess when it's suddenly blowin stink with seas building and wind driven salt spray. I wouldn't want to manage all that analog paraphernalia when the piloting IS difficult.

If you've seriously never tried a modern GPS chart plotter, find a friend who has one and ask him to show it off to you. In my opinion, they are as indispensable as a transom shower. And if you can manage turning one on you've pretty much mastered the machinery. There's honestly nothing to it. It's nothing like LORAN or even the GPS of 10 years ago.

...and thanks for the algebra tip...  ;)

--Greg

   Greg: "Is a hammer better than a saw"? Better analogy: Is a hammer better than a nailgun? No, they are both indispensable tools which have their proper place. I'm glad I came up through construction during the non- pneumatic age. I can out hand nail most of these newbies on the site. Would I want to frame a house by hand? Nope. I love the nailguns ability to save my elbows.
   Same with GPS. I like knowing how to do stuff...be it mix my own drink, rebuild my trucks engine,  or perform manual paper navigation. But you have good point: when the weather turns bad, we often don't have time or want to get out the charts. A chartplotter is nice. Let's face it, if there was not a need, chartplotters and GPS would never had been invented. 
   But the sextant is not an extinct tool; rather as long as the stars are in place, it will always be a valuable and reliable tool, providing that one knows how to use it. I'm learning. And  thanks Henry for your posts about celestial nav. Very helpful- I've printed 'em.
   Don't get me wrong; I love technology and all one can do with it. But I still like to know how to write, even though most folks would agree that my left-handed chicken scratch more resembles hieroglyphics!
   ps. The story of the motor home is true. I be live they  (or he) was a Stella Award recipient.
Bob23, wishing fair winds to all here in 2010!

When did hull speed vs wind speed become a discussion of the relative merits/disadvantages of types of marine technology? This is an old much debated topic, and one that should go back to its GPS....et al threads. Why should there just be one way of sailing, when any problem can be approached safely by many different ways. I own a handheld GPS, a chartplotter and paper maps with a good watch. Any of the above when used skillfully can give me the speed.
Greg, I am a bit surprised that you would lean so heavily on electronics, as Florida seems to be the lighting capital of the world. But if that is what you want for your adventures- go for it. I think the convenience of a chartplotter is hard to beat.
Henry's way is alot more like fly fishing- where less is more. His adventure uses traditional tools, which have served sailors for hundreds (if not thousands) of years. Its a different game, but a great adventure never the less. When I sail small and coastal, this is the way I like to go.
Bottom line- your both right. You just live in different worlds.

"and chip log? They're decorations too!"

If one knows how to use it a chip log it can give a more accurate reading of water speed then a GPS will. GPS don't give water speed, they give speed over ground.

Shawn

Well its 28 below this a.m., just burned my chip log for heat , the wood chairs next.....oh for warm breezes.....Phil

I really don't know if I want to continue with this...

Maybe my chart plotter has a speed transducer plugged in. You know, the little paddle wheel that always gets jammed up with barnacles or zebra muscles or that little twig of seaweed. That thing is about as accurate as a chip log.

I suppose you can look at boat speed from two different perspectives. When I used to crew on a Swan in a local regatta here, just off of Daytona Beach, speed through the water was of utmost importance. Slightest trim adjustments would yield +/- the smallest fractions of a knot and our captain wanted every one of those fractions in our favor. Now, me and Com-Pac, I'm not as interested in how fast I'm going through the water as opposed to how fast am heading toward my destination...my speed OVER water (or ground if you will).

Anyway Shawn, you're right the GPS alone will not give water speed. So, what does that do to our algebra lesson from earlier? We have speed accurately measured at 5 kts using our chip log and we know we have a distance of 100 nautical miles to traverse to reach our destination; can we assume with any accuracy when we'll arrive using either Time = Distance / Rate or our slide rule or spin wheel machine? I suppose you could just guess at the current and come pretty close, but that negates any accuracy no matter the measuring device.

The chart plotter computes this automatically and updates it every second or so.

I'm certainly not trying to start, nor am I interested in, a pissing contest. Mariners, like most people, will always have differing opinions on the best way to get something done. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my way is best...I really don't care. But I guess what I am trying to say is just because it works for you (whomever), doesn't necessarily mean you've found the best way of doing it (whatever). Don't be so closed minded. And be careful with the influence you may wield. Some here may put a lot of value in the experienced opinions of others.

For what it's worth...




Oh, and Bob, Mr. Merv Grazinski of Oklahoma City was his name. Thanks for the Stella reference. A little Google and a little snopes.com (love that sight) convinced me it's urban legend. Can't believe everything you read I guess...

And Newt, yes, we've gone way off topic AGAIN. Imagine that...a topic on the CPYOA that strayed off topic. That never happens here  ;)

Grog to ya Greg. May your keys passagemaking be full of  warm easterlies and lacking in clocking northen'ers

O.K., I give up .....I'm going to buy a hand held GPS just to play with, why I would need one on a lake of 5000 acres I don't know, just don't tell the wife I don't need one...........any suggestions on brand, etc?..........Phil

The need for a chart plotter depends where you sail. I sail on the Mississippi most of the time on the CP19, don't even have a depth guage, probably should.. but once a year I sail off the coast on Maine on a 30 Sea Fairer,, we use detailed charts, a plotter and a compass,, the rock shelves are frequent and un-forgiving.. and yes, last year we still hit one..Rob

Go here

http://www.usps.org/localusps/door/

and ask Marcus about which ones work well. He's the man.

skip.

Upon rereading my earlier posts on this topic, I can see how I may be coming across a bit shrill and opinionated on the tired old debate of modern vs traditional navigation.  I apologize, and I am ready to concede that it is perfectly right and proper for any skipper to take advantage of any technology at his disposal if it makes his sailing safer or more convenient.  

Your chilling picture of a "norther" off the port bow brings back to mind unpleasant memories of trying to deal with flogging sails, charts and papers blowing about, and a panicky crew-- simultaneously.  Of course, having all your navigational information instantly available at your fingertips in an easily visualizable form is priceless.  Only a fool could fail to see the advantage in that.

My concern is how over-reliance on technology can also lead to over-confidence, and to neglect of basic skills.  You don't need to be a celestial navigator, but you should know the stars rise in the east. And technology also requires a heavy investment in practice and training.  It only becomes second-nature after you've used it for a while.

Still, I suppose when the compass and chart were introduced, the old-timers complained about how the old skills were disappearing...

To all com-pac sailors..
The only real important issue is not speed thru the water but speed over ground.  Long ago (1978), with my Catalina 27, I went out the Ft. Lauderdale cut a couple of miles, sailed all day, I think north, when done, I turned directly back in to return, no angles, but straight in. Not a lot of miles covered, but a lot of "thru the water miles".
Now, after many years sailing a Peason 35 on Lakes Erie and Michigan, I thrive now to keep it simple, (KISS) with my 2001 Suncat.  No battery to keep charged, no thu the hull fittings, a trailer to allow me to go anywhere, etc.,etc.  I use a Garmin 276C mounted on a small transportable  board for chart plotter, speed over the ground, tide predictor, etc. It's a great small boat tool. Naturally I use paper charts.  Also I have two hand held compasses for verification, plus a hand held West Marine depth sounder.  Unless you are a blue water sailor, or a blue water pretender, you need to keep it simple on a small sailboat with limited speed and distance traveled in a day's sailing. 
I have a Plath and Weems sextant used once to earn navigator rating from USPS and I never used it on the water, a big expensive  overkill!!  Someday I may sell it. I thought of installing Lazy Jacks, but that would be contrary to the KISS principle. I could go on, but you know, KISS.
   
 

I'm not a blue water sailor, but if I did decide to do it someday, I would definitely learn manual navigation using sextant and charts.  And would of course bring along a GPS and also look into other electronics (like the chartplotter).  I have good navigation skills with topo maps and compass-and use this first when surveying my land.   I bring along a GPS mainly to know if I get lost, I'll have my campsite/truck marked as a waypoint.  It will get me home.  With that said, if it failed I would still be able to retace my tracks using a good old fashioned compass, maps and notes.  Albeit at the expense of time.

I think of electronics as convenience features only.  And I'm kind of a gadget guy. Anything can happen to them...they could get wet, the battery could short out, there could be a wiring problem or just a flaky power connector.  Or they could give you the wrong data (unlikely).

If you rely on electronics and they fail and there is no knowledge manually how to navigate, you're screwed. 
In most all situations they are great to have.  But if they fail you need a backup plan.

"Now, me and Com-Pac, I'm not as interested in how fast I'm going through the water as opposed to how fast am heading toward my destination...my speed OVER water (or ground if you will).

This thread is about hull speed, something a GPS alone can't give you. This is a common error I have seen in many threads, glad you know the difference.

"The chart plotter computes this automatically and updates it every second or so."

I have a Garmin 478 chartplotter. When I want to know my hullspeed I use my knotstick.

Shawn

I got a kick out of reading many of the above responses. I've been sailing for a long time with numerous ocean deliveries on much larger boats. Any electronic devices you've got on the boat are just tools which can help you at times. Can you do with out them, -sure! Should you know what to do when they break down - of course! Would Columbus have liked a chart plotter with an up-to-date electronic chart on the Santa Maria. You bet he would! And remember that your vhf is an electronic tool too. I wouldn't leave the dock with out it. You shouldn't either.

And boat speed vs ground speed vs wind speed. What's the big commotion about? All three are important numbers which you should know at most times. You can't really use ground speed to measure and improve the boats sailing performace day after day. It's how fast you are going thru the WATER that matters then. Same for boat speed. Your speed in the water is not that helpfull in finding out when you will get to the next waypoint or destinaton. And wind speed has very little in common with either of the above. Translating that to boat speed depends on the boat, the condition of the sails, the wind angle, and the ability of the skipper and crew, etc. There are sailboats out there which will go over 3 times faster than wind speed. Like 30+ knots in 10! And there are boats which will do maybe 2 knots in 10.

Ron M  - USCG Master's, 100 tons, ocean rated
Telstar 28, looking for a Horizon Cat