I am new to sailing cat boats. I went for my first sail yesterday. (First solo outing did not count as I ended up in the lake. At least the stern ladder works) How do you keep the bow to the wind while lowering the sail when solo? My bow fell off quite rapidly and then it was difficult to get the sail down and the boom onto the gallows. Do you start the motor and then try to steer into the wind, with the tiller locked, while lowering the sail? Any suggestions would be helpful. (My prior boat was a Drascombe Dabber with a mizzen. When sheeted in this keep the bow into the wind)
Yup, that's the modern approach, now that we have auxiliary power, and mizzens aren't common.
I will say that an experienced sailor I know, who owned a PC and HC at the time, offered this suggestion when sailing without relying on a motor to raise the sail. I'd tried playing with the CB to get the boat to come into the wind when lying a-hull, but that wasn't working. His idea was to raise the peak halyard a bit, keeping the throat down as required, exposing some sail aft, raising the mizzen if you will. That could weather cock the boat into the wind and facilitate raising the sail. I've meant to try this more seriously, but haven't so far.
To douse the sail I have come into the wind under sail and got the sail down before she fell off. Actually I had started the motor but it was still in neutral, so I had no auxiliary propulsion during the maneuver. I didn't realize it until the sail was down and I wasn't going anywhere. Duh.
Some variation of using the peak and lowering the throat to bring the boat into the wind when lowering the sail might be feasible. Let us know if you are successful!
A tiller tamer really helps a lot to keep the boat going in the direction you want with the motor going
I have a tiller tamer on the boat, which was the first thing I broke on this outing. I will replace this, or look at the Wavefront tiller clutch as an option.
I really like the WaveFront TillerClutch. I didn't realize how much I used it until the control line cover frayed and bunched up during a sail (after 6 seasons). I didn't have any suitable line on board, but no big deal I thought, I just won't have it for the rest of the sail. Then I noticed how often I was flicking the clutch on and off out of habit.
https://wavefrontmarine.com
The one thing I will caution about is the installation of the control line was much more critical than the manufacturer suggested (in 2011). This was on a PC, so YMMV.
The first attempt, I ran the line over the coaming, tensioned it with the tiller amidships, and tied off at the boom gallows stanchions. It worked great with the tiller within about 10-15 degrees either side of the centerline, but beyond that the line slacked excessively. The full range of the tiller was unimpeded, but the tiller clutch was useless for much of the range. For the next attempt, I backed out the top left and right screws of the tiller horn and temporarily fastened fairleads at these locations. Now, with the line again tensioned with the tiller centered, the line tightened significantly when the tiller was pushed to the side, and the range of the tiller was limited to about 25 degrees of the centerline.
At this point I mounted a scrap piece of furring using the top row of tiller horn fasteners and experimented with different attachment points. I found that if they were spaced 31 3/4" apart, centered, the tiller clutch control line would be under constant tension throughout the full range of the tiller. I used teak for the finished mounting board.
The rear coaming of the PC is straight across, not curved as it is on the SC, so a mounting board may not be the easiest way to proceed. I had tried some heavy duty suction cups as attachment points (like I used for the VHF radio in the photo) but didn't like the flexing under load. The critical thing is to find attachment points that you know will work before you start drilling holes.
Dumb question, but what diameter line works best with that tiller clutch? I have one installed on mine but haven't found a suitable line in the bucket-o-stuff the boat came with that works with it.
Bruce - very nice install - yea seems like every time I move I'm clicking my tamer - gets to be an automatic response 😀
When I had to replace mine I did agonize over it a bit.
It came with NE Ropes 3/16" Sta-Set. Worked OK, but I felt something more durable would be better.
I decided on 5mm FSE Robline Dinghy Polytech (polyester/Technora cover, Dyneema core). At first I thought the cover might be too hard, but in use over 6 seasons it's been fine, no significant abrasion to the cover. Haven't noticed any extra wear to the clutch.
Thanks, Ken. The photo is a bit dated, I've since hinged my tiller. Photos on request.
Thanks for the picture Bruce. I have ordered the Wavefront Tillerclutch. I did not mind the Tiller Tamer, but being plastic it did not hold up too well to UV. One of the side tabs broke off. The Tillerclutch looks like it is better made., though a bit more expensive. If it lasts longer though it is probably the better value.
Thank you Bruce for that info. I like the way you have yours rigged.
I installed a TillerClutch as pictured in Bruce's Reply on a Sunday Cat. As he pointed out the aft coaming is curved so I installed port and starboard cam cleats in a vertical position forward on the coaming where the curve flattens. The lines run at about a 45 degree angle to the tiller and the line feeds over the top of the cleat thru a stainless fairlead. Works great anytime I need an extra hand under power or sail.
Bub
Good idea, Bub, takes care of the coaming curve. If you get a chance, what's the distance between the fairleads, and a relative position vertically in relation to the tiller. Save others from having to experiment.
I suspect there is some variation possible, and it doesn't have to be super precise. But, in my photo it looks like the boom gallows stanchion is roughly in line with my control line, with the tiller centered, but as an attachment point it didn't work at all.
Thought I would jump in to the discussion, with some photos of my "quick and dirty" (as compared to Bruce's usual high-grade workmanship) tiller control. Our SC came with the "Tillerlock" and the simplicity and quality materials have served us well. Both ends of the shock cord are attached at the base of the boom gallows support, and using lengths of shock cord with a line in the middle has proven more durable than all cord and more flexible than all line.
While out single-handed yesterday in a blow far above the forecasts (I measured 15 mph but NOAA weather indicated gusts above 20 on a forecast of 5-10) I realized the importance of getting bow steadily to the wind. I was too quick to douse sail and things got...interesting, especially when the Torqueedo cut out at the worst possible moment. Turned out to be the second-ever connection issue, simply needing to tighten the connection between throttle and battery. But still.
Looks good! I'd forgotten that the tiller on the Rudder Craft rudder your PO installed comes over the coaming.
Outboards are great, until they aren't. I'm glad you were able to sort out the problem, being solo just added to the fun!
Ya, the tiller-over is one of the relatively few "upgrades" the boat came with that I quite like. It allows easy standing with the tiller tipped up, and with the end blocked the original opening provides very handy storage for a few odds and ends.
The last photo provides a glimpse of one of the less useful changes: the boom gallows was re-installed on the cabin top as a removeable piece while under way. There seemed no good reason for that change and my "temporary" solution (also "quick and dirty") was to bring it back aft, using some old plumbing pipe I had on hand to restore the height. Each year I toy with the idea of ordering a new support from ComPac and each year the temporary solution remains in place.
Yeah, at $179.40 each, and shipping won't be cheap, they look just fine.
Hey, you're part way to a garage package!
dbybe, others:
An alternate anchor point for the control line of a Tiller Clutch:
For my SunDayCat, I have my Tiller Clutch control line anchored onto the boom cradle stanchions using 2 Nite-Ize aluminum CamJam cleats.
I purchased them at Menards, a mid-western HomeDepot-like store.
https://niteize.com/camjam-xt-aluminum-rope-tightener.
The jaw of the cleat is large enough to fit onto the stanchion.
The cam cleat allows tensioning of the line,
and also easy release of the line if the Tiller Clutch itself were to jam onto the line.
I located the TillerClutch onto the underside of the tiller experimentally, by clamping it at various positions until the preferred position was found.
Works well. Have no interest in redoing it differently.
Sorry, I cannot provide pictures today. I am 1000 miles away from my SunDayCat.
Regards, Roland
Yeah, my priority was to have the tiller clutch trigger mounted on the forward end of the tiller where I could easily flick in with my finger as I steered. Further aft on the tiller I'm sure other options work out.
The boom gallows stanchions weren't an option for me, on a PC.
When our SC came to us the Tillerlock was mounted on top of the tiller, which I found to be very un-handy. Happy to have it re-mounted on the underside.
The mounting-board approach worked fine for me, setting a fixed horizontal line and finding the spacing between attachment points that worked, but thinking about it further I might approach the problem a little differently.
To me, the critical thing is for the control line to remain equally tensioned throughout the tiller's range without having to reset the line. I would attach the clutch trigger where I wanted it on the tiller, temporarily with tape if I was unsure, insert the line in the clutch, center the tiller, and pull the port (P) and starboard (S) legs back symmetrically to where it looks good for attachment. Mark those points for reference. Measure from the attachment points to the clutch, these readings should be the same with the tiller centered. Record the sum of these two lengths. Now swing the tiller to port and check the P and S dimensions to the attachment points. Repeat to starboard. If the sum of P + S remains the same, then the control line will be equally tensioned throughout its range. Most likely you'll need to move the attachment points vertically and/or horizontally, I'd keep things symmetrical, until you find attachment points that work.
If the control line is loose at the stops, you'll have full range of the tiller, but the Tiller Clutch won't be effective at the margins. Since you'll mostly be using the Tiller Clutch within 10-15º of amidships this may not matter much. If the line tightens as you approach the stops your tiller range may be restricted whether or not the Tiller Clutch is engaged, best avoided.
Quote from: bruce on October 05, 2023, 06:20:33 AMGood idea, Bub, takes care of the coaming curve. If you get a chance, what's the distance between the fairleads, and a relative position vertically in relation to the tiller. Save others from having to experiment.
I suspect there is some variation possible, and it doesn't have to be super precise. But, in my photo it looks like the boom gallows stanchion is roughly in line with my control line, with the tiller centered, but as an attachment point it didn't work at all.
I'll measure and get it back to you. I assume by "vertical" you want a measurement of the fairlead distance aft of the point on the coaming which is on a 90 degree line from the tiller when centered?
I can do that. Also can measure the entire distance along the coaming from the port to the starboard fairlead. I can also take a picture if I can figure out how to attach it to my next reply. Bub
By vertical I just was looking for a rough vertical height of the fairleads relative to the tiller. The distance down from the top of the coaming would work. I assume they are the same, port and starboard.
The horizontal distance between the fairleads, straight across, is what I was thinking. With the tiller centered, and the horizontal dimension split 50/50 port and starboard, where a line of that dimension lands (90º to the tiller) will position the fairleads for someone trying to reproduce your set up. An idea where this set-up line crosses the tiller could be helpful as well.
Once potential attachment points are established, I would encourage the installer to verify that the actual control line attached here would allow for constant tension throughout the swing of the tiller before drilling holes. Temporarily fixing the line with duct tape to the coaming should work.
With the new forum set up, click on highlighted Reply button under the previous post to get a window that you can drag your photo to. The Quick Reply option automatically displayed doesn't give you a chance to attach a photo unless it's hosted elsewhere.
I will work on this in the next day or so. At this point my pix will be iPad or iPhone and I can't figure out how to move them from my photo albums to this Forum.
I welcome any suggestion but if it can't be done I'll just do the measurements and send them in narrative form.
Bub, I sent you a PM.
Quote from: bruce on October 16, 2023, 03:54:35 PMBub, I sent you a PM.
I have the pix and measurements, but where is the pm?
Found the PM and have emailed info and pix on my installation
Here's the info Bub sent, thanks!
"Tiller, cam cleat and stanchion relationship. Tiller center when centered is abt 31" from outside of coaming.
Blue dot is the point 90 degrees perpendicular to tiller centered midship, although the pix is deceiving. Blue Dot is 12" fwd of center of port side cam cleat. Or stated more clearly the cleat is 12" aft of the 90 degree line from the Tiller. On my boat the aft end of the clutch body is 11" from the tip of the tiller. The forward end of the clutch lever is 5.5" from the tip of the tiller.
Close up of port cam cleat
Starboard cam cleat. Distance between cleats measured along the Coaming is 54".
Hope this helps. Works great as long as line is small enuf to run free thru Clutch body without friction. I've used it when raising and lowering sails and also under sail when something got hung up out of reach of the tiller even when my Ronstan adjustable extension was fully out."
Thanks for assisting, Bruce!!
Just a final post on this conversation. For various reasons I have recently decided to sell my SunDay Cat. I have loved sailing her and especially found the cpyoa forum and those who share their expertise extremely helpful.
If you know anyone who might be interested in a great boat, the listing can be found on the website of Snug Harbor Boats located at Lake Lanier in the Atlanta metro area.
Best wishes to all for fair winds and smooth sailing!! Bub
I enjoyed reading this thread.
Some things never change for single handling boats that do not have some sort of auto-helm.
It boils down to heading the boat into the wind with or without power, securing the tiller by some means, then rushing forward to get the sail(s) down (or up) before the boat falls off. As soon as you move forward to get to the halyards, the change in the heel of the boat will cause it to veer right or left. It takes a good skipper to successfully haul sails consistently in all conditions.
For larger boats the one of the first priorities for single handling should be some sort of auto helm, flailing booms and sheets can sting.
It takes me 15 - 20 minutes to get the main down and furled a bit less to raise it.
Our current boat has a good auto helm. I have used it for over 5 years and nearly 400 days off of the dock, yet just early this past year did I think to use the relative wind application on the auto helm. Previously I would just set the helm on a bearing, mostly into the wind, and leave enough power on to keep that heading without falling off. It is much easier to set a relative wind angle of 0° with the minimum power to keep the boat on that heading.
I smile to myself! I am embarrassed that it took so long to discover this.
I still appreciate the nimbleness needed to get the sails down while single handling....I appreciate more the ability to take 15 minutes to do it.
Merry Christmas
regards charlie
Auxiliary power has made it easier for all of us! Us small-boat sailors have to contend with then fact that the boat is very sensitive to crew weight. Any significant shift, such as going to the mast for sail changes, has immediate effect. Even with auxiliary power, the rudder can be secondary.
Like you, a good friend and PC owner had a 27, in his case a Catalina, before his PC. He consistently has said it was easier to single hand his 27 for this reason. We rent a J/22 at times when we need a sloop fix!
Guys,
Try another one of my $5 solutions. It isn't perfect but it helps with pointing into the wind while raising or dousing the sail, works best if you have a motor though.
Run a length of shock cord (maybe 1/4 or 5/16, you'll need to experiment) from the boom to the tiller. The elasticity of the shock cord lets you easily overpower it manually if need be vs an inelastic piece of line. If the boat falls off on starboard tack, the boom moves to port pulling the tiller to port, turning the boat back into the wind, and vice versa. Like I said it's not perfect, but costs next to nothing, and if you don't like it don't use it. It'll work on any boat with a tiller. I use it on my PC. My HC obviously has a wheel so this approach doesn't work but then it's a much more stable platform to work on so I can go to the mast for a minute or so without getting into trouble (mostly).
Andre
Thanks Andre. Something new to try next season!
An interesting idea indeed...and something I have not seen nor read about before. Worth a try!
In all honesty I can't claim to be the originator of this idea. I came across it on some other forum a few years ago, maybe one of the wooden boat ones.
Andre
Hey Andre,
Did you see that your post got picked up on the Precision Forum on the TSBB? The poster did include the link to the thread, in addition to a screen shot of just your post, but didn't point out that you were talking about a catboat. The thread quickly veers off to how most just heave to when handling the main, discounting the value of your suggestion.
Don't know if you can see this if you're not a member.
https://trailersailor.com/forum/index.php?topic=608.msg3818;topicseen#msg3818
Thanks for letting me know Bruce.
I actually have (had?) an account on the Trailer Sailor forum but have seldom if ever posted on it but I do have read access so was able to read the posts.
I have little sailing experience with small sloops although I've sailed on BIG ones (27-50 ft). So not sure how well heaving to would help in RAISING a mainsail since I think both a backwinded jib and a main up are required to heave to, otherwise there'd be a lot of lee helm. For reefing it should work though. Probably depends on a boat's sailing characteristics.
Andre