Hi everyone,
I am a new forum member from New Jersey. I am a novice sailor looking to learn on my first boat. After watching many YouTube videos of rigging and sailing the CP16 seems like a possible match. I wanted to see if I am headed in the right direction. I appreciate any and all input as I do not have any sailing or boating mentors.
I will be towing with a 2009 Subaru Outback 2.5L. I took ASA 101 many years ago on a J24. I travel to California often and I have rented Catalina 14, 16 and 22?s on Mission Bay (very small calm body of water). I have done a couple of lessons in San Francisco on an Olsen 30. Almost all of these boats were already rigged and ready at the dock. I have very little experience setting up a boat. Right now I am reading ?The Complete Trailer Sailor.? Once I am proficient enough to be safe I hope to take my 5 year old daughter on day sails and one night adventures on Lake Hopatcong or Barnegat Bay in NJ. She has enjoyed 2 seasons of power boating and kayaking and is pretty good at following instructions on the water. She likes tent camping but neither of us have done an overnight on a sailboat. My wife and 2 year old son might sail with us occasionally but I will most often be using the boat alone or with only the 5 year old as crew.
Questions
Should I get more advanced and proficient before buying my own boat?
Based on YouTube videos the Com-Pac 16 seems like it could be put together in about 30 minutes while my daughter plays in the car. I would then have to launch while she sits in the car. Does this sound reasonable/safe for me to do alone or with her ?help??
The ComPac 19 also seems like a good option and more comfortable for sleeping but from YouTube videos it seems like a longer process for solo rigging while I test my daughters patience. Is this accurate?
Has anyone sailed Barnegat Bay on either of these boats? Am I getting outside of what a newbie should be doing?
Have any of you sailed or overnighted on a boat with a kid this young? She is pretty patient, she will wear her life jacket indefinitely in our kayak and she usually enjoys whatever adventures I throw at her. Any thoughts or advice is appreciated.
Do many marinas allow trailerable boats to be stored with the mast up on the trailer to cut down on launch time?
Do people pay for professional inspections when buying used boats in this price range? Other than reading ?The Complete Trailer Sailor? I wouldn?t know what I am looking at.
Any other thoughts or input is greatly appreciated!
Glenn
I won?t comment on boat choices (lots of opinions out there) or sailing on Barnegat Bay (I sail on Buzzards Bay).
I?m happy to comment one one area, sailing proficiency.
Practice, learn, have fun while learning, ?just do it.? And owning your own boat means you can sail whenever you want to, on you own terms.
I didn?t grow up sailing. Took it up in my early 40?s when I decided I needed to get out on the water since we live a few steps from the water. I read a couple of books, got out on a friend?s boat a couple of times, bought an old 16 ft sailboat boat at an auction, named it Lookout and with a friend?s help launched it. Sure I made a bunch of mistakes, but nothing life-threatening and most were good lessons that I built on. My wife and kids sailed and learned with me as well.
30 years and three boats later, I still look forward to the spring and launch day, so enjoy!
My opinion in the order presented:
1. No, your current experience is better than most folks start, there is a lot of learn by doing both sailing and rigging.
2. I've never rigged and launched a sixteen but that seems reasonable, takes me about an hour and a half on a 23. Do some driveway rigs to get experience. I've launched my 23 many times single handed.
3. Probably so, longer heavier mast, might need a system to do it solo depending on your strength level.
4. No experience on BB, there are several here who sail those waters though.
5. I have pictures of my oldest son as a baby in a carrier wedged on the cabin floor in front of the companionway where my wife could watch him. This was on a Columbia 24 challenger. My children all sailed before they could walk. Appropriate safety equipment of course.
6. Some will, some won't, my current won't, best to call around close to the area you will sail and get that answer with prices for mast up storage and ramp availability.
7. No not it the price range of a 16. Best to get an experienced friend to go with you. You can also pour over the sixteen section of this site, many many potential questions to ask and places to look based on owners experience. Several have done complete refits.
Other input. Ignore Bob23 when he tries to extort a significant entrance fee from you as a new member of this forum.;) I'm kidding, despite the fact that he is a self admitted curmudgeon and promotes Pabst Blue Ribbon beer as something that actually tastes good, he has a wealth of knowledge particularly on the BB sailing area.
Hi Glenn,
Welcome to the forum ....
I have no experience with CP16s or Barnegat Bay. However I keep a Picnic Cat and a Horizon Cat at Spruce Run State Park in Clinton, NJ year round. It's a fairly large lake (reservoir actually) which has year round storage for boats under 25 ft within a few hundred yards of the launch ramps. The lake is very irregularly shaped and is big enough so it takes a good part of a day to sail the perimeter. $250 for a summer spot in a large grass lot with 300 assigned spots, $200 for the winter in a 150 spot paved parking lot. During the boating season (4/1-11/1) you can just walk around look at the boats and talk to any owners you may meet. You can keep your boat rigged in the summer so you can get in the water very quickly. Only <9.9 hp outboards allowed and no alcohol unlike Hopatcong so it's a VERY peaceful place, especially during the week. There have been 2 CP16s kept there in the past. Also has camping facilities and a beach. I've been keeping my PC there for 14 years. If you you just day trip there admission is I believe $5 weekdays and $10 weekends per car, no fee for launching.
Also the Hunterdon Sailing Club is based there with an active racing program mostly Sunfish, Flying Scots, and F5/Lasers I believe. They give lessons on Sunfish including for kids. I'm not a member but it's a nice crowd. Very mellow place in general. Check it out and if you have any questions feel free to ask.
Andre
Welcome Glenn!
I've never rigged a 16, but we own a 19 that with practice can be fully rigged in 30 minutes by one person. I've sailed with our grandson when he was 3. No overnight, but we did take an extended nap in the cabin. ;) It sounds like your daughter will love the 16. I personally think the 16 is an excellent 1st sailboat. It's sturdy, well mannered, and easy to setup and tow. If the time ever comes I'm looking for a smaller boat, the 16 will be 1st on the list.
I second what Brackish posted about Bob23. His knowledge of Barneget Bay is legendary. (in his mind) Being a fellow New Jerseyian, he most likely won't try to extort bill you for membership here.
Definitely set up a few times on the hard, but other than that, you learn by sailing. Be a little mindful that sailing upwind isn't the strong suit of most Com-Pacs, including the 16. Make sure you have at least one alternative means of getting back to the dock.
i would say get the biggest boat you can tow with the subaru, do some investigating about towing with that cvt transmission. owners forums and such
Thanks for the welcome and all of the thoughtful replies. I will keep reading the forum and watching and hoping that a CP16 or 19 comes up for sale near me. Hoping to join the owner ranks in the near future. Thanks again everyone.
Glenn
Hello Glenn and welcome to the forum from a life long New Jerseyan! Greatest state in the union!! Where do you reside? I currently live in Manahawkin and work on Long Beach Island so at the furthest, I'm only 9 miles from the water.
While it is true that I am a self proclaimed curmudgeon, drink an occasional PBR and have extorted untold millions of dollars from unsuspecting new members, it is also true that I've sailed Barnegat Bay for at least 30 years in various boats ranging from playing around in Sunfish, Force 5, A Seapearl 21 and my present boat which is my favorite- a 1985 Compac 23/2 which is kept at Long Key Marina, Waretown NJ. I also row persistently in some of the same waters that I sail on. Not at the same time, mind you.
There is much more room in a 19 than a 16, despite only being 3 feet longer. They have different designers as well as different hull shapes- the 19 sails much flatter than the 16. The 16 and 23 share the same designer and hull shape- they both like to be sailed heeled over somewhat. I have not owned either a 16 or a 19, but I've been aboard both and they are fine little yachts.
You and your daughter are welcome aboard my 23 anytime. I always welcome the company as I mostly sail alone- my wife doesn't really enjoy sailing despite the fact that her father raced Lightings at the Surf City Yacht club for years and dominated that class.
And despite the allegations about me by previous forum members, most of which are mere fabrications of course, I will not charge, extort or otherwise demand any compensation from you for your membership here. Us NJ guys gotta stick together!!
Best to you in your hunt for a suitable yacht! There's so much availalbe!
Bob23.. thinking about digging out from the snow... looks like we'll get about 15 inches down here. 10" already on the ground!
Ahoy, Glenn!
Welcome to the forum -- so glad to have you here! I am excited for you and for your daughter to embark upon your sailing journey together! Speaking from my own experience being a daughter who had learned how to sail from her father (btw, I was 5, too, when I started!) -- I am so grateful for that experience I had growing up -- how it taught me not only about sailing, but introduced me to my love of/for nature, and how that feeling of the wind in your hair, tiller in hand, can't be beat! Fast forward 40+ years later, and I am still sailing! What a joy it is!
If I may share my 2 cents, I would also suggest you could add the Com-pac Legacy to your list of potential boats -- it comes in at 16'6" LOA and she is a sturdy, stable sailor -- so much fun to sail and equally great for beginners or those with sea legs more seasoned! I purchased my Legacy from G Winters Sailing in Riverside, NJ last year. I have a 2021 Com-pac Legacy and to chronicle my sailing journey with my Legacy, named SV Sunflower (Sunny), I started both a blog site and a YouTube channel. I have some info there that might be helpful, as well as a video to give you an idea of how easily launched and rigged the Legacy is. I believe that G Winters even has a 'pre-loved' Legacy available currently -- I'll note that my only affiliation is, again, that I purchased my own Legacy at the same Com-Pac dealership -- I've no interest/no affiliation with the sale of the boat to which I'm referring. :-)
In closing, I will second others, here, who've commented that learning by doing is an excellent way to go. It sounds to me like you've established a good foundation with the prior sailing experiences you've shared with us. I hope that you soon find the boat of your dreams and can get out there on the water and enjoy!
Happy sails!
~ Chelle
2021 Com-pac Legacy | SV Sunflower (Sunny)
https://sailawaywithchelle.wordpress.com (https://sailawaywithchelle.wordpress.com)
Setting all else aside I would recommend adding a boaters safety class to the list such given by Coast Guard Aux. or local law enforcement. For the safety of you, others and for certain your young precious cargo. :)
Good point Cats Paw. It's actually law here in NJ to have taken and passed the NJ safe boating course. Funny thing is that you don't need it under sail; only while under power.
Bob23
Gfish - I'll offer my comments on the 16 vs 19 question, as a long-time 19 owner.
Both are unusually strong, stable, and well built for their class. Hutchins/Com-Pac has built them to last a lifetime, and still provides excellent support with parts and advice for owners. It's the rare sailboat company that has successfully stayed in business with continuity of ownership for so many years.
I would call the 16 a daysailer, and the 19 a small yacht. Besides the differences in hull shape and designer already mentioned, which make the 16 a little tippier and the 19 a little more stable, the big difference is in cabin accommodations. The 19 will feel very safe on the water and you can realistically spend a night or two boat camping with your 5-year-old, but it's a heavier tow and takes longer to rig (about 45 minutes in the ramp parking lot, which includes the distractions of other boaters stopping by to admire the Com-Pac and chat you up). I trailered my 19 for several years, but eventually put her in a wet slip so I can hop on and go sailing.
Don't know about your Subaru, but I was towing with a 2004 Tacoma 2WD, rated for 3000 lbs, and had some hairy experiences on slippery ramps and rainy highway trips. Eventually upgraded to a 2011 Ridgeline 4WD rated at 5000 lbs and felt 100% safer. The 19 and outboard on a trailer is likely around 3000 lbs, with a lot of windage.
If frequent trailering is your plan, you may be happier with the 16. If you want maximum safety and ability to spend nights on board, I would lean to the 19.
Hope this is helpful - follow up questions welcomed!
Wes
Bob23 thanks for the offer! I would love to sail on a 23 and get some exposure to Barnegat Bay with such an experienced sailor. I can bring you some PBR in exchange for this experience unless Brackish can convince you to try some better tasting beer before then. I live in Roxbury NJ about 1 hour 45 north of you. Good luck with the snow removal, my back is already sore.
Chelle I have watched all of your YouTube sailing videos last week! They were motivating and it very much helped to see the tour of Sunflower and the video of launching. I have been including the Legacy in my search. My understanding is it?s very similar to the CP16 with some updates. Sunflower looks beautiful. It?s encouraging to hear that your sailing experiences with your dad were so important to you. I hope I can provide something like that for my kids.
Cats Paw I have done the online boater safety course and had the endorsement added to my license in NJ. It was good stuff but it?s been several years and I am looking for some continuing education from the Coast Guard or elsewhere if anyone has a recommendation.
Andre thank you for the knowledge about sailing on Sruce Run reservoir. I would love for my daughter to learn to sail on her own in a couple of years. I love Lake Hopatcong but there seems to be an element there that believes that (Mass*Velocity*BAC)=Right of Way. I guess in a sense they are correct. The idea of her on a dinghy in the middle of Hopatcong on a weekend makes me nervous.
Based on Crazycarl and Kickingbug1?s input I will include the CP19 in my research. My 2009 Subaru should be able to handle that weight and I plan someday to get a newer Subaru with a 3500 pound towing limit.
Wes thanks for the input. That is very helpful with regard to the differences between the 16 and 19 and the towing considerations. I have been watching a YouTube channel called Miami Boat Ramps. There were some exciting failure modes with small cars on slippery ramps that I had not imagined. I do hope to do overnight adventures and add my 2 year old to the crew when he can swim and is less prone to jumping off of and out of things.
This is a very helpful group, thanks everyone
Glenn
Hey Glenn, welcome aboard! As you have already found out, folks here are the best! Bob is truly one of the best for picking his brain on Barnegat Bay sailing!
As far as a CP16, we bought a book and taught ourselves sailing with one decades ago and now have another, though a Mk2 rather than the first Mk1. I would recommend the Mk2 as frankly a better boat sailing wise. With that said we totally enjoyed our Mk1 for a decade! The advantages of a smaller boat is that it will give you instant feedback for both good and bad sailing. The 16 can be affected by where you place yourself while larger, including the 19 will not. Also as mentioned the 16 (and 23) are from a different designer than the 19 and thus prefer to sail on a heel. Do not confuse this with being tender or tippy and they are rock solid once they set up and tend to not pound in the chop you will get up there as much as a flatter sailing boats.
You may wish to read through the below website as there is much info about Compac boats. In particular check out the article: "The best boat to learn"
http://www.sailboatrichlands.com
Have fun!
Welcome aboard Glenn! Bob is the resident enforcer I mean expert for Barnegat Bay. Finbar Beagle is the man in the know for the northern sections of Barnegat Bay, who happens to sail a CP19. I sail two bays south, Great Bay but the conditions are rather similar. This area has the Pine Barrens running along the shoreline which creates some strong afternoon winds in the summer. It was explained to me that the pines get rather hot, which create that strong on shore south/southeast breeze every afternoon due to the much cooler ocean temps. Winds on Great Bay average a good 15mph and some days into the 20's. That said there are 2 16's on Great Bay and they seem to be fine. I've never sailed a 16 but did own a 19 and like the others have said is a much bigger and different sailing boat. I think a 19 may be a bit big and not as lively given it weighs some 2,000lbs which is also double the 16. Also keep in mind that you might get bitten by the -itis to go beyond the 19 after having the 16 for the shore. Best of Luck!
Does anyone have thoughts on the Precision 18 and how it compares to the CP16?
Mas - Thank you for the link and the thoughts on the CP16 variants.
Reighnman - I think I will get bitten by the -itis and want to go bigger once my son gets added to the crew in several years. My primary mission now is a boat with which to learn and get my 5 year old introduced to sailing/overnighting and explore the local sailing areas.
Thanks, Glenn
when i decided to move up from my 16 i had a cp 19 in mind. problem was i couldnt find one that was in good shape that i could afford 5000 or less}. anyway i expanded my search to include the percision 18, oday 19 and capri 18. i eliminated the percision since they seem to be kind of lightly constucted well built but not :overbuilt". odays were hard to find. i did however find a catalins capri 18 in michigan, a 1987 in perfect shape. long story short bought the boat and couldnt be happier. shes a bit faster than a cp 19 and points a little higher. 7'7" beam with a large cockpit and room below. we have sailed her for 6 years or so and have nothing but smiles on our faces. i have towed her with a chevy s 10 2wd with a v6 without issue, like the cp19 the catalina has a shallow draft keel with a 2 ft draft and no centerboard problems. the cp 19 is a great boat however and you wont regret buying one. the 16 and legacy or a bit small for overnighting in my opinion,
I will add the Capri 18 to my spreadsheet. Can you expand on lightly built for the Precision 18? I've read that Com-Pacs are considered very seaworthy and strongly built. Is the lightness of the P18 something that would impact a novice on lakes or Barnegat Bay? Or is this difference in strength only a factor in conditions outside of my flight envelope as a beginner anyway? The P18 appears to be more readily available than the CP19 and closer in weight to the CP16. Thanks for all the input.
Glenn
i looked at a couple of precisions on line before buying the capri and i didnt like the way the chainplates were backed with plywood. the catalina was much more robust. another good thing about the catalina is that it doesnt have a compression post making access forward much easier. i would be perfectly confident taking my 18 off shore. there was a guy sailed one from san francisco to hawaii
I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. I think any of the popular small cabin boats - CPs, Precisions, Catalinas, Hunters, O'Day, Potters, etc can all handle bay and lake sailing easily. Just have a way to reef and know how to do it, have a jib furler or a jib downhaul if you need it to get the jib down in a hurry, a decent anchor and rode, and reliable motor and you'll be fine. Any of these and similar boats will handle most any conditions you'll encounter just fine if your standing rigging is in decent shape. Just don't push it and prepare or run for cover if the weather shows signs of turning bad. Use caution. Even Raritan Bay and western LI Sound are fine sailing waters for all these boats.
Don't overthink it, it'll probably just be a starter boat anyway for you and your kids, so go and have safe(!) fun with it.
Andre
There is a 1988 mk2 16 on a Facebook page Sailboat For sale by Owner Only. Seems to be in your area.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/945743318865601/permalink/4461070493999515/?sale_post_id=4461070493999515 (https://www.facebook.com/groups/945743318865601/permalink/4461070493999515/?sale_post_id=4461070493999515)
Thanks for the thoughts gentleman. Reighnman, I'll try to go see that CP16 this week, it's only an hour 45 away.
Glenn
andre is right on the money
Quote from: Andre on February 04, 2022, 12:36:07 AM
I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. I think any of the popular small cabin boats - CPs, Precisions, Catalinas, Hunters, O'Day, Potters, etc can all handle bay and lake sailing easily. Just have a way to reef and know how to do it, have a jib furler or a jib downhaul if you need it to get the jib down in a hurry, a decent anchor and rode, and reliable motor and you'll be fine. Any of these and similar boats will handle most any conditions you'll encounter just fine if your standing rigging is in decent shape. Just don't push it and prepare or run for cover if the weather shows signs of turning bad. Use caution. Even Raritan Bay and western LI Sound are fine sailing waters for all these boats.
Don't overthink it, it'll probably just be a starter boat anyway for you and your kids, so go and have safe(!) fun with it.
Andre
I would tend to agree with this sentiment. Our first "cabin" boat was a Potter 15 (cabin about equal to a small, hard pup tent, in truth). We didn't spend any nights out in that wee thing, but we did dock on a small lake with a channel to Lake Michigan. The small lake was literally too small and shallow to sail, so all of our outings were on the big lake, and almost all were in rolling waves up to probably 5 footers. The first mate, who has little bravery or patience on big water, dubbed the little craft (with a blue hull) True Blue since we bobbed around so safely, or at least so it seemed. Our 17' Sun Cat is far more boat, far more spacious (though we still don't overnight) and probably safer in every way, but I that little Potter was a fine stable craft. I suspect this is true of many of the well designed and stoutly constructed small boats.