After selling my 31 ft. sloop, the Sun Cat is in my short list of boats to downsize to, but I have a couple of questions.
1. The side decks look very narrow. How do you owners get from the cockpit to the bow when anchoring? Are you able to navigate your way up to the bow walking up the side deck while hanging on to the handrail? Do you sit on the cabin top with your feet on the side deck and kind of "scootch" your way forward? Or do you simply walk up the cabin top while carefully balancing yourself?
2. What hp. outboard motor do you use? It looks like 4 - 6 hp. would be ideal, but they weigh around 60 lbs. When trailering the boat do you leave the motor on the mount? It seems like having 60 lbs. bouncing around back there would not be good. Do you transport the motor in your car, or simply leave it mounted on the boat?
I'm not at all a small or particularly coordinated person, and I have no difficulty getting forward to drop anchor.
As another option, the PO of my boat installed an aft chain locker (i.e. a bucket wedged between the rear of the cockpit and the transom). Honestly, I've never used it, but I think in larger waters, anchoring from the cockpit might offer some security to buy time to get forward at leisure.
As for outboards, I use an ePropulsion Spirit 1.0, which is about 3 HP and 40 lbs. It's more than enough, and I have the older version with about 25% less charge capacity than the current. I use he the bluetooth remote version and I love it. I just made a keystone-shaped tray out of King Starboard on which to mount the throttle and a couple of drink holders. This replaces an identically proportioned cushion in by cockpit. I'll probably post some pictures of it as I complete the project in the next couple of weeks.
The near silence of the electric motor is pure bliss. Conversations in the cockpit are totally natural at speed (about 4 knots).
Oh, and I do leave it mounted to trailer since I'm only going a few miles, but it would take 5 seconds to remove the battery for transport. That's easily half of the weight.
Our Sun came with a variety of mostly ill-informed modifications, but one that worked out is shifting the boom gallows to the cabin top. After moving it back to the original position I left the pieces holding it in place and they make a perfect handhold (photo attached, if all went well). Otherwise, I am confident I would manage the passage with care using the handrail.
We, too, use electric auxiliary, Torqueedo in our case, also rated to be about 3hp equivalent. We use a remote throttle (wired) that works great for us. We have had adequate power in serious chop and headwind for dousing sail (though little by way of excess capacity) and can get plenty of speed when leaving and returning to harbor. The boat came with a way oversized 8 hp (as I recall) that Hutchins firmly advised not to leave on when trailering (when we picked up the boat). Once here, we are within a couple miles of the ramp, and keep her in a seasonal slip, so the Torqueedo comes off only for winter storage.
I use a trolling motor (55lbs) to leave and return to the dock. Took the grate off the stern and put the battery where the gas tank should go.
Only mistake was buying a Walmart battery. Forks suggested it would last two years which it did!
No problems going to the front for a reasonably balanced person. But I only sail and never anchor.
My biggest improvements to the stock boat: Lazy jacks to catch the gaff boom and a main down haul accessible from the middle of the cockpit. Everything falls quickly and neatly.
I really like my Honda 2 long shaft which I swap back and forth between my PC and HC. Overkill for the PC, more than adequate for the HC on a lake. 29 lbs, no impeller, 1 hr run time on internal tank, I throw it in the back of my Outback every time I use it. Noisy as hell but I only use it if the winds are contrary, non-existent or way too strong, and as a backup docking aid.
Andre
Sassy, has a Tohatsu 4 HP Long Shaft 4-stroke 2010.
This year I notice some hesitation in the stream of the water refrigerating the engine and I decided to have the water pump replaced. The rubber pump was still in place but some of the leaflets had warped. Apart from that I take the engine for a tune-up every second year.
The trick for keeping it in good working conditions seem to be to a) to use new gas every year, b) use only gasof high quality (no ethanol), I use Shell V-power, but there may be similar fuels in other brands, and c) use a good fuel additive (I use SeaFoam, but again, there may be others).
Four years ago I had some trouble with the piece connecting the fuel line to the external tank as it was letting air in, causing the engine to stall (very annoying...). Eventually this was solved by replacing the part: https://thewakesileave.wordpress.com/2017/04/28/new-tank-fittings-at-hoses-end/ (https://thewakesileave.wordpress.com/2017/04/28/new-tank-fittings-at-hoses-end/)
The 4HP model comes with an "integral tank" that I never use (the valve for switching tanks in the port side of the engine is always kept horizontal).
The engine weighs 27 Kg (57 lbs), which at 76 I can still lift unaided to the bracket at the stern (on land...).
I believe that Tohatsu also makes the equivalent Mercury and Nissan outboards (which is good if you need parts as they are interchangeable).
J.
Joseph
Do you leave the motor on its bracket when trailering your boat or do you remove it and transport it in the car? I'm catching up to you in age, and don't relish the thought of mounting & removing a 60 lb. motor every time I trailer the boat. Glad to see you have got launched. Fair winds...
When we were transporting our SunCat home from purchase (around 80 miles) with an 8hp Yamaha, Hutchins, when asked, was very clear that it should not be on the motor mount. I suspect very short distances will be less of a problem, but still hard on the hardware if bumpy...
Jim:
Thanks for replying. I see that the Yamaha 8hp motor weighs 89 pounds, which exceeds the stated capacity of the motor mount. I can understand why Hutchens said not to trailer the boat with that motor attached. The Tohatsu 6 hp weighs 57 lbs, but that is still a lot of weight bouncing around back there. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find a motor with the capacity to have a remote tank that weighs much less.
A Suncat absolutely does not need an 8 or even a 6 HP motor. My 3 HP ePropulsion pushes it at 4 knots and weighs 42 pounds with the battery on. If I wanted less towing weight I could remove either the battery (18#) or the whole thing.
And, if I did decide to remove it, there wouldn't be any possibility of oil or grease soiling the car.
True, that 8 hp Yamaha was WAY over the top but I agree with Renae that 6 remains more than necessary (but maybe not over the top). I would be interested in other experiences or advice on transport with motor on or off the mount; a conversation with the friendly folks at Hutchins might also be in order. They have been very good for us on those occasions I needed parts or advice.
Whether gas, electric or nuclear powered, I can't imagine any real need for more than 4hp on a Suncat.
4 hp 2 stroke johnson, remote tank 36 lbs
I got one of those little Tohatsu 2.5 hp 2-strokes with my Com-Pac 16/3, and later found a near-identical but newer Mercury-badged one that was practically new on Craigslist for just $100 as a non-runner. Its carb was merely clogged with fossilized ethanol snots from just sitting around for years, but took all of 15 minutes to get running tip-top again. Just for the record, dried ethanol snot in a carb bowl closely resembles that Sugar-in-the-Raw or demarara brown sugar they have in coffee joints, though it might make your latte a little more pungent than you'd like. I scraped a couple-few tablespoons of the stuff out of the Mercury's carb, shot through the jets, etc. with some spray carb cleaner, and she fired right up. A good dash of SeaFoam or Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel will really help ease out any residual crud.
They ain't fancy, but a little Tohatsu or Mercury 2-stroker would definitely do the trick for a Suncat. One Japanese madman used one to travel from Basel, Switerland through the French canal system to and through the Mediterranean, crossed the Atlantic to Barbados, then carried on to Miami and New York using one on a sort of homebuilt yellow lozenge (See: https://www.tohatsu.com/marine/na/news/seiko.html).
They're super popular in the 3rd world, having been sold as "2.5 horsepower" for taxIng purposes, but only needing the simple removal of a little stamped steel "constrictor plate" in the carb manifold to instantly increase it to just over 3.5, and the tax man need never learn of that extra pony.
In short, if you spot a nice used one you could do worse. It weighs in at just 26 pounds, and while it doesn't really have a reverse gear (you just easily pivot the whole motor), neutral, or one of those centrifugal clutch arrangements like a much pricier Honda or other 4-stroker, I've never had an issue pleasantly getting back to dock. At slow idle it barely ticks over with minimal thrust. It's also just the ticket for a dinghy, like my old inflatable Intex Mariner 3. And being a 2-stroke, maintenance is almost negligible--not even oil changes. They're kind of "3rd World Ghetto Fabulous".
Hi Robert,
Sorry for not replying any sooner...
When having the boat on tow, I always remove the outboard from the stern bracket, as I fear that a pothole may cause it to get loose or break the bracket. Inside the back of the Jeep/truck I place the outboard on its side (port side down). I also remove it from the bracket when I store the boat for the winter (I store the boat outdoors in a yard under a large tarp and rely on the cold of the Canadian winter for keeping the mice away...) but I keep the outboard indoors hanging vertically from a bracket inside my garage. I can still handle it single-handed: to transport it vertically I place both my arms under its casing and for bringing it in and out of the car I grab it with the casing against my belly with the propeller forward. So far so good...
J.
Though your potholes are legendary, that's an awful lot of work to do every time you take out a trailer sailer (for me 2-3 days per week) and pretty much exactly what the OP was apparently hoping to avoid. The mounting bracket handles a lighter motor just fine.
I have the 6hp sailpro on my eclipse and Hutchins was clear in saying the motor should always be removed when trailering. I had hoped they would say that it was ok to leave it on the boat when trailering short distances.
Fred
No need to get personal about each other's potholes, Renae, I was just answering the question that Robert T. addressed to me about what I do with the outboard while trailering.
If I was towing and launching the boat every second day I would likely consider to cautiously trailer the boat with the outboard on the bracket. However, even if the roads were as pristine as I am sure yours are, depending on the travelling distance, I would explore the possibility of securing the outboard to the trailer via some kind of "transom-saver".
I agree that 8 HP for a SunCat is an overkill. 2 HP is likely also suitable depending on the wind and wave conditions. However, 4-6 HP are likely best for my kind of sailing. A powerful-enough auxilliary may come handy in the event of coming aground (it happens to the best of us) or having to override the anchor (a useful manoeuvre when weighing anchor single-handed against head-winds and with a lee shore close aft).
J.
I always leave my 5hp Tohatsu installed on my Suncat while towing. I use a ratchet strap and attach it to the aft right cleat. Then I run the strap behind the motor shaft and over to the aft left cleat. Then I tighten the strap which lifts and pushes the motor in close to the transom. It helps carry the load and secures the motor in addition. I have towed this way from Ohio to the southern tip of Florida and back as well as up into Canada and back without a problem and many more local trips.
Getting the boat ready to go to the CLR next Monday. The perfect time to take a pic.
Thanks to all for responding. Once I locate and purchase a Suncat, I?ll probably equip it with a Tohatsu 3.5 hp motor. I think it will provide adequate power at a reasonable weight. I?ll learn to live without the remote fuel tank.
Robert T,
I was at the CLR last week and a fellow Suncat owner told me that his 3.5HP motor doesn't have a reverse gear so he has to quickly rotate the engine around when he wants to go in reverse. He said he regretted not going with a larger HP motor that has a reverse gear. His initial requirement was for a light weight engine so that is why he selected that size engine at the time. So beware of that when shopping for a motor.
Quote from: Robert T on June 27, 2021, 08:51:06 PM
Thanks to all for responding. Once I locate and purchase a Suncat, I?ll probably equip it with a Tohatsu 3.5 hp motor. I think it will provide adequate power at a reasonable weight. I?ll learn to live without the remote fuel tank.
It will be great plenty unless you need to do long distance motoring. If you want to cruise 30 miles down the ICW at a time, it isn't the right tool. If you're pushing in and out of marina/boat ramp area, motor cruising for brief intervals and/or occasionally supplementing light winds, it's fine. In fact, I would personally argue, better for comfort, reliability, weight and hassle factor. All other things being equal, I would probably choose Torqeedo over eProp at this point, but my eProp is still a way, way better solution for me than my previous Tohatsu. Bruce has tried both and may have some thoughts.
Though full throttle does no harm to an electric OB, try to throttle down a little as conditions permit. You'll get much longer run times that way. On the little lake I sail, since I'm never really far from the ramp, I actually do go full throttle much of the time, and usually have 80%+ of my battery life on reserve at the end of the day, unless, for whatever reason, I douse the sails when I'm a couple of miles out, in which case I've only once dropped below 50%, upwind and fouled with an explosion of weeds.
Going electric will get you a real reverse in a small OB. And, FWIW, spinning the motor around with a remote tank with gas or propane is even a bigger pain.
Both ePropulsion and Torqeedo have replaced their 3 hp equivalent OBs this year with the Spirit 1.0 Plus/Spirit 1.0 EVO, and the 1103/603 respectively. Useful upgrades in both lines, if you think electric would work for you.
This British dealer sells both, and compares them, I think fairly, in their product descriptions.
https://nestawayboats.com/shop/epropulsion-spirit-plus-1kw-electric-outboard/
https://nestawayboats.com/shop/torqeedo-travel-1003s-1103cs/
Bruce,
I don't know if you've seen my utility/throttle tray thread in the in DIY section. I've moved the cup holders about halfway forward since then and I think it's about right. I went for solid bolt down on the throttle remote, but it's only 4 wing nuts in the former gas tank cubby to get the whole tray off.
Said cubby is now where I toss bungies/lines (and a small trash bag) when I'm sailing. I might do more with that space when the weather sours later this season.
Renae
Yeah, I saw it. Looks great!
I have come up with a couple of mods to 1, readily tighten the pivot so the motor better holds its course during maneuvering dockside, and 2, a means to routinely lock/unlock the pivot without removing the battery for straight-ahead motoring. I'll post them when I get a chance.
The newer models may have addressed this, I haven't heard.
Thanks for the link to the UK dealer who sells both brands of electric motors. Seems like they have come a long way and are definitely worth considering.
Quote from: bruce on June 28, 2021, 08:23:32 PM
I have come up with a couple of mods to 1, readily tighten the pivot so the motor better holds its course during maneuvering dockside, and 2, a means to routinely lock/unlock the pivot without removing the battery for straight-ahead motoring. I'll post them when I get a chance.
The first mod looks great, but so far I don't need it. I'm able to get into my usual dock with the pin in, so I just set it and forget it. In a tight marina, I'd look that one up (I think it's just in our emails back and forth), or just manually spin the motor then remove the battery and pin once I was clear.
The second mod interests/perplexes me and I would love to see it sometime. There doesn't seem to be a system on our boats/motors that you haven't improved substantially.
Here you go, Renae. I'll send the mods separately so I can post enough photos.
Not many on the list have a Spirit, but the design of the Torqeedo outboards is similar, so this may be of interest for them as well. The issue is, there is no easy way to tighten the motor pivot. Too loose and the motor can spontaneously swing to the side and drive the boat in circles. Never a good idea. They do provide a locking pin that keeps the motor centerlined, but that requires removing the battery to access. No problem at a quiet lunch spot, but not something you want to do in heavy chop, traffic, or approaching or leaving the dock, when being able to steer with the motor is very useful.
Under a foiled cowling, attached to the fixed transom clamping assembly under the pivoting head, there is a clamp for tightening the pivot. Unfortunately, to access the clamp you must remove the cowling. Two problems here, the cowling captures the bushings that the motor pivots on, so the motor needs to be on a bench to safely remove the cowling. Not convenient. The second is they bed the heads of all fasteners with silicone caulk. Looks finished, and keeps them from vibrating loose, but is a pain to dig out to undo the fasteners.
The cowling on the Torqeedo 1003, and possibly others, is fastened with Torx-drive screws so you'll need that driver. But, the cowling is just decorative, and can be removed anytime without effecting the motor pivot bushings.
I removed the cowling and drilled a 3/4" hole at the appropriate spot to provide access for the port clamp screw. I had to further grind channels in the edges of the hole to provide clearance for a screwdriver. I used a panel plug to fill the hole. These are typically used with sheet metal, you might find one in a car door jam, and usually are limited to about 3/32" thickness. The Heyco C2066-P plug I used from McMaster-Carr can handle up to 1/4", has a plastic body and a rubber head so it conforms to the curved surface well, and has two stepped catches that are secure enough, but the plug can pried off for adjustments to the pivot clamp.
Hopefully the photos make sense.
The second mod was for times when I didn't want to just rely on the friction of the clamp. I fabricated a mounting bracket out of 1/4" aluminum and installed a twist-to-lock spring plunger that can locked retracted to allow the motor to pivot freely, or unlocked so the plunger is extended and will engage a hole in the bottom of the battery pan to lock the motor centerlined. I used a flat lanyard that readily indicates the position of the plunger lock. Aligned fore and aft the plunger is in play, athwartships the plunger is retracted. McMaster-Carr has a bunch of spring plungers to choose from, this one is 316SS, part #8691A41. The ring style with a lanyard is easy to grab. The battery tray bottom has a nice gradual slope, I added some Teflon tape for the plunger to slide on when as it is depressed as the plunger swings in to engage the hole. Once the plunger finds the hole it pops up, locking the pivot, until I reach back and retract the plunger.
Fess up. You were the original MacGuyver, weren't you. We won't tell anyone...
I do enjoy finding solutions to problems, or improvements that make things better, but, in this case at least, the manufacturer should have done a better job testing basic functionality. These things aren't cheap.
I, too, am always impressed with the stuff you can fabricate. This is indeed one of the design flaws in both major brands of the electric motors. As a simple and less elegant solution to the pivot issue on our Torqueedo I put the tiller arm on when coming in from a sail, and have a couple blocks on the back of the boat to hold it in place if the waves and wind are high when dousing sail (which can result, as you pointed out, in an annoying potential for the motor to turn, spinning the boat at the worst possible moment - not just theoretical). This does have the added advantage of having the tiller available for the tricky turn into our slip. The remote throttle remains connected, so we don't have to change the wiring for the tiller.
Quote from: Jim in TC on July 04, 2021, 12:02:53 PM
I, too, am always impressed with the stuff you can fabricate. This is indeed one of the design flaws in both major brands of the electric motors. As a simple and less elegant solution to the pivot issue on our Torqueedo I put the tiller arm on when coming in from a sail, and have a couple blocks on the back of the boat to hold it in place if the waves and wind are high when dousing sail (which can result, as you pointed out, in an annoying potential for the motor to turn, spinning the boat at the worst possible moment - not just theoretical). This does have the added advantage of having the tiller available for the tricky turn into our slip. The remote throttle remains connected, so we don't have to change the wiring for the tiller.
With the eProp, you are either/or, but not both. It's something to consider before purchasing an electric, and part of the reason I might buy a Torqeedo next time I am in the market, although really it's more about the available features at the time. When I bought (and Bruce did), I think the offerings favored the eProp. They have both updated significantly since then.
The friction clamp isn't just a problem with electric outboards. My Tohatsu 6hp Sail Pro has the same problem.
Fred
Fred:
Be careful to not over tighten the Tohastu friction 'clamp' handle.
The mechanism can be permanently damaged.
I have tightened mine as far as I dare, but the motor still rotates in it's collar.
Especially at idle in neutral.
Otherwise, it has not been a problem for me.
It's not really intended by Tohatsu to be a 'lock,' but only a 'drag.'
Fixes to make it truly a 'lock' have been discussed elsewhere.
I have not done so, and as a result cannot vouch for it, but you may find this informative.
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/tohatsu-4-5-6-hp-tiller-lock-fix.160553/#post-2111401
Like yours, mine is a Tohatsu 6HP Sail Pro, now several years old.
Regards, Roland
Interesting Fred. My Honda 2 and Lehr 2.5 had a thumb screw to tighten. Crude, and even with a compression spring tended to vibrate loose, but it did firm it up so the motor would hold a course.
Hi, All:
No one has mentioned one of the advantages of the Tohatsu 6HP outboard which is valuable to me.
It, and only it in their lineup, is available with an 'Ultra-Long-Shaft' of 25 inches, which is standard on the SailPro model.
With it, I am able, on my SunDayCat, to eliminate moving the motor mount parallelogram linkage up and down while on the water.
I can use the same position with the propeller well submerged for motoring but tilting up and out of the water for sailing.
The motor tiller is at a convenient height at the transom. No reaching over and down.
To achieve this, I modified the motor mount plate of the motor mount bracket.
I made the motor mount plate slightly taller, essentially becoming a compromise between the two prior positions which I had used.
But, I agree that 6 HP is more than necessary.
Typically I use only 1/3 throttle or less, usually less.
Yes, it is heavier than the Tohatsu 3.5HP outboard, and that is a disadvantage.
Yet the Tohatsu 4HP, 5HP, and 6HP are all essentially the same engine and essentially the same weight.
But only the 6HP is available with the ultra-long-shaft.
Regards, Roland
Hey Roland, similarly I tried using the motor shaft length to eliminate a step. The Lehr 2.5 only came in a short shaft, so I modified the motor mount so I could use all four settings. That entailed shimming it off the transom an 1 1/4", so the full up position was in play. Unfortunately, I still had to tilt the motor on a starboard tack to clear the water.
For me, on a PC, the third position, one up from the lowest, was good for routine motoring. If it got choppy, the full down position helped keep the motor from cavitating. That's been true with the long shaft motors I've used as well.
My sailpro definitely "wanders" if motoring more than a very short distance. Not a big deal for the way I'm using it as I only have about 1/2 mile from my dock to the draw bridge and another half mile from the bridge until I'm in Lake MI. If I had to motor any distance I'd definitely need to come up with a way to make sure it doesn't move.
Wasn't aware that the lock could be damaged by over tightening. Good to know. Thanks.
Fred
I'm not sure why the trapezoid mount is problematic. If it's oversprung, that can be (carefully) fixed.
Roland and anyone else that is having a problem with your motor not staying locked in place. The lock is a band of metal wrapping around cylinder of cast aluminum, metal on metal just doesn't work that well. Some leather belts are made of two layers and sewed together on both sides, also glued. Take one of these belts and with a screw driver open the glued together pieces apart for about six inches. Slip this over the band for your motor clamp cutting the belt of until you can just get it around the cylinder. The belt works like a brake shoe instead of having metal against metal. This has worked for me and a couple of other sailors.
ROGER
"Tohatsu Friction Clamp Fix" Roger told me about his fix for his engine probably 5 years ago or so and I did it to my Tohatsu and it has been working great for me since then.