Folks,
While the Torqeedo 1003 met my needs for pushing my CP 19-2, I am finally looking to switch.
The issue it the shear pin for a the plastic prop it too easy to break, and cannot be fixed when underway. I believe this is due the brackish water (salt, fresh, and whatever is being used for fertilizer/insect control) in Barnegat Bay NJ.
It is near impossible to remove the shear pins as rust has glued them in. Must be beaten out with hammer and punch, or drilled out.
At the end of last season, my 1003 was mangled in my slip by a powerboat. My marina said it was my fault. It was at night, I was not there, and my boat was in same slip fou 3 years.
So now I am in new marina, and looking hard at Mercury Sail power Propane 25". New Marina has sea grass and some shallows that I need to learn the hard way.
I am proud to say I now reside in Beaton's Boat Yard. I am so thankful to have moved.
Quote from: Finbar Beagle on April 10, 2021, 02:49:08 PM
Folks,
While the Torqeedo 1003 met my needs for pushing my CP 19-2, I am finally looking to switch.
The issue it the shear pin for a the plastic prop it too easy to break, and cannot be fixed when underway. I believe this is due the brackish water (salt, fresh, and whatever is being used for fertilizer/insect control) in Barnegat Bay NJ.
It is near impossible to remove the shear pins as rust has glued them in. Must be beaten out with hammer and punch, or drilled out.
At the end of last season, my 1003 was mangled in my slip by a powerboat. My marina said it was my fault. It was at night, I was not there, and my boat was in same slip fou 3 years.
So now I am in new marina, and looking hard at Mercury Sail power Propane 25". New Marina has sea grass and some shallows that I need to learn the hard way.
I am proud to say I now reside in Beaton's Boat Yard. I am so thankful to have moved.
What did
your insurance company say?
Gas. 4 stroke Tohatsu Sailpro. Sips fuel, dependable, simple. Gas!!
I agree with Bob. Our Tohatsu 6 Sailpro is great. Plenty of power to move our 19. Easy start, too.
Carl,
My former marina said the outboard exceeded past my slip. I had same slip,boat and motor for 3 seasons and was never told this was an issue. I was able to determine who hit my motor, but am unable to get quote on repair direct from Torqeedo. At corporate level, they are easy to work with, but I am not impressed with local service suppliers. The other boat owner has been willing to support, but I have not need able to get work quoted.
I feel that the dockmaster should have told me at some point, and each season I requested move to a larger slip. As I had to add them to my insurance, I thought they would have been middleman so I did not need to hunt out other boat owner.
I have poor history with gas, and want to support the "cleaner" technology. I was the torqeedo shear pin issue could be resolved. The smaller Mercs are produced by Tohatsu.
Keeping my fingers crossed. At least we can power big grill at next BBB.
Brian,
Yeah, I had crevice corrosion in a Torqeedo 1003 shear pin as well. Tested fine before launching, in air with little resistance. No cooling system so I didn't bother with a tank. Once in the water, the shaft would spin but not the prop. Paddled back to the dock.
I did use a Lehr 2.5 for about 5 seasons. I not familiar with the Mercury propane OB design, how it might relate to the now-discontinued Lehrs, and the relative build qualities of the two, but I will caution that propane leaks can be serious. Explosions are obvious, but leaking gas or liquid propane can quickly freeze and damage human tissue as well. I had several leaks, sometimes my fault, but more often design issues or actual defects. I was able to avoid injury. I use propane in cooking and lighting appliances all the time, but the OB was more complex, with more points of possible failure.
I know propane is used to power all sorts of vehicles, safely, and the Mercury may be super safe. Just wanted to pass on my 2 cents about working with a propane OB.
Bummer Brian, good luck on hunting down a new outboard. Shame about the pin, did they offer advice on servicing to avoid such an issue on the water?
I?ve had reliable service from my 2001 Nissan 5hp four stroke (knock wood), but if I needed a new motor, I?d consider one of these, installed just forward of the rudder.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9QHFY-HzoDg
I have one of the early 2000 Nissan 5hp 4 stroke and its been trouble free. It's actually a rebranded Tohatsu.
Fred
Ditto to the Tohatsu (Nissan) 6hp. If you're looking to go green LP over gasoline isn't going to gain you any points. Those motors barely sip gas (8 hours at 1/4-1/3 throttle = < 1 gal.!). And they're just as dependable if you keep non-ethonal fuel and some sta-bil in the can. Not to mention cost will be less.
While I'd like to see more choices/competition/quality in the market, I still think it's work switching to electric. We've been trying, as a species, to burn the planet for about 100,000 years and we're finally succeeding.
Brian,
If you want to consider staying with a Torqeedo, and whatever usable bits you have after the collision, I think a better shear pin is doable. I've looked around online, and the rusting seems to be common. Why they haven't addressed it is a question. A freshwater rinse will never be very effective in reaching the pin.
I didn't find anyone suggesting a sensible alternative. I would stay with the dimensions, 3 mm x 27 mm (1/8" might be close enough), and look at either monel (nickel copper alloy), or bronze. Brazing rods can be useful. Testing shear as a DIY project requires a little ingenuity. I do have a cheap wire stripper/crimper tool that has the ability to shear off machine screws in the size range we're talking. That, and a load cell (if a sense of hand pressure required wasn't enough), could be used to roughly quantify the shear force required to cut a OEM Torqeedo pin to compare to possible substitutes. Or, you could just try one out and check it often until convinced. Monel and bronze are relatively soft metals, but clearly you want to pin to be the sacrificial bit if you do hit something. I made a temporary pin out of 316 SS to get back on the water, but replaced it when the Torqeedo pins came in, for that reason. I didn't test the 316 SS under sheer.
https://www.amazon.com/Klein-Tools-1001-Multi-Purpose-Electricians/dp/B000EVLUR2/ref=sr_1_19?dchild=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpdqDBhCSARIsAEUJ0hNxgxTqtQM1gpc2o1Z8d8Fvr6t5aXRWXWYHW0c6gnyW9273GDGx1QUaAv1AEALw_wcB&hvadid=409991420771&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9002250&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1716847025517292646&hvtargid=kwd-19579884312&hydadcr=1640_11256618&keywords=wire+strippers+crimpers&qid=1618399285&sr=8-19
Quote from: Renae on April 13, 2021, 10:40:57 PM
While I'd like to see more choices/competition/quality in the market, I still think it's work switching to electric. We've been trying, as a species, to burn the planet for about 100,000 years and we're finally succeeding.
I am in 100% agreement. But for this application I don't see how going electric is going to make any positive impact whatsoever. We are literally talking about less than 5 gallons of gas burned per year in an average season, more like 1-2 for the average day sailor. When you look at the battery capacity required, materials of construction, etc. it doesn't add up to compensating for the emissions of this tiny bit of petrol.
I'm sure this is why there aren't the choices/competition/quality in the market. The cost of electric motors and batteries need to get down to = the cost of a gas motor. When the reason to buy is based as much on cost vs. emissions then it will take off.
Quote from: slode on April 14, 2021, 01:34:19 PM
I am in 100% agreement. But for this application I don't see how going electric is going to make any positive impact whatsoever. We are literally talking about less than 5 gallons of gas burned per year in an average season, more like 1-2 for the average day sailor. When you look at the battery capacity required, materials of construction, etc. it doesn't add up to compensating for the emissions of this tiny bit of petrol.
I'm sure this is why there aren't the choices/competition/quality in the market. The cost of electric motors and batteries need to get down to = the cost of a gas motor. When the reason to buy is based as much on cost vs. emissions then it will take off.
Sure, but there will be no momentum toward cost parity if electrics without the capital from early adopters. Be one, if you can.
Quote from: Renae on April 15, 2021, 10:19:27 PM
Sure, but there will be no momentum toward cost parity if electrics without the capital from early adopters. Be one, if you can.
That, and there are other benefits: low maintenance, low noise, no odor, "easy starting," example of electric option to encourage more adoption of the tech. Also, small motors are notoriously dirtier to run, though I that is less true with the newer 4 stroke engines, right? I am happy to be down to one gas engine in the household, in the car, with electric lawn mower, trimmer and even chain saw (modest use). The car is next...
I am happy to be in fresh water though, after reading about the shear pin issue (ours remains clean as a whistle, as of last check).
Agreed. We don't have to raise our voices to compete with the motor. It's bliss, and docking is more coordinated.
after a few years of being frustrated with a mercury 4 hp outboard motor i went back to a two stroke {yes im a republican who watches fox news). the mercury had carb problems from the get go, refused to idle, started on maybe the fourth or fifth pull and often stalled when docking. rebuild didnt help. used ethanol free gas. but every year it required a full carb take down and cleaning. what a pain in the BACK SIDE. the 94 johnson i use now starts on the first pull. being a twin it is smooth and quiet unlike the mercury single which was a vibrator. doesnt smoke and weighs only 30 lbs. oh yeah it doesnt care about the quality of the fuel.best yet i paid 350 bucks for it. i cant be pollutihg the world too much as i only run it about 50 yards from the dock. my thoughts on electric power. too expensive way too expensive plus battery production can hardly be considered " green" if thats what your going for. again its a sailboat---sail it
The production of electric motors has a carbon footprint, but so does the production of gasoline engines. Some of the comments here forget the latter. True, the usage reduction isn't huge, but it's a technology that makes more sense in the long term. That's gotta be worth something.
forgive me but im a 19th century man
The first automobiles were electric, back in the late 1800's (though not by much). Well, actually steam but still.
Quote from: Jim in TC on April 18, 2021, 10:12:42 AM
The first automobiles were electric, back in the late 1800's (though not by much). Well, actually steam but still.
In other words, not even close, and still dependent on the highly inefficient mechanism of turning heat into motion. You can buy an electric or not, but if you don't see it's dominance in the future, you're missing something significant. Stay out of the stock market.
Now boys and girls, let's play nice.
The long and short of it is the range of an electric outboard on our small boats is limited due to the fact that we just can't store enough battery due to weight and space. I like the Torqueedo as most of us do and it seems that the shortfall is confined to the sheer pin at this time. Am I right?
I sail in tidal conditions and at times I need the range that my 4 hp Tohatsu 4 stroke delivers. And it does burn pretty clean as anyone who owns one knows. Currently, I could not put an electric outboard on my 23 and feel that I have adequate power and range.
We can't argue that electric is here to stay and being in construction, the ease and durability of our cordless tools makes my job easier, faster and safer. But the first generation cordless tools were a joke compared to the state of the art tools available today. With certain tools today, we're on the edge of seeing corded tools becoming obsolete. Some, but not all.
Bob23
I agree with what Bob said, although I think he has a 6HP motor. It has to do with power and range. I truly would prefer electric to run silent and trouble free but think inboard would be my preference. As soon as I can figure out how to remove a bunch of that concrete ballast, replace it with an equal weight of "safe" batteries, and install an inboard without the project costing more than the boat did, I'm in.
I stand corrected, Brack and thank you. indeed it is a 6hp sailpro and your idea of an electric inboard with batteries in place of the concrete is the best yet. But because I'm not ready for any major projects and I'm a professional cheapskate, I'll stick with my Sailpro. But honestly, I go through only about 5 gallons of gas a year. And most of that is motoring in and out of the marina. When I keep Koinonia on a mooring, I'd sail off and up to the mooring, sometimes going a month without even starting the motor!
Bob23
i knew when i said "two stroke" someone would take exception. i do like pressing buttons.
Quote from: kickingbug1 on April 18, 2021, 08:29:16 PM
i knew when i said "two stroke" someone would take exception. i do like pressing buttons.
You pressed my "green" button (meaning the GO kind, not so much the environmentally conscience kind). I am with you. When it comes to small gas engines I am a personal fanboy of two stroke motors, but at this point it's become just a hobby dedicated to vintage snowmobiles and the like. I am excited for battery tech to keep progressing though. Cars are getting there, and for my next commuter any competitively priced (including taking lifetime fuel and maintenance cost into consideration) car on the market will be in consideration.
As more electric outboards come into the market I doubt that (low) power will be a lasting issue (the small ones have plenty for littler craft), but range anxiety will be with us for a while. With two of the larger Torqueedo batteries I have plenty for my modest range needs but if cruising around I would at least need to add solar power or give in to more 'conventional' auxiliary. The large outboards and inboard electrics are really intriguing but pricey (to say the least).
I had a couple seasons with a little Honda 4-stroke on a WW Potter and that was a sweet motor - easy to start, relatively clean, fairly quiet and absolute fuel sipper. At that time we had a longish run from a dock out to Lake Michigan and filled the small tank (I do not recall volume) incorporated into the motor rarely, and for spare fuel carried a quart bottle made for camp stoves.
I agree about power tools and their evolution. A neighbor even has a snow blower, battery operated, that actually packs quite a wallop. And the original owner of our Suncat had one of the early Torqueedo's (probably sometime in the late 2000's) and claimed it wouldn't push her off shore (maybe too small of a model, maybe too early in the tech, could not say).
I have the eProp Spirit 1.0. It can't quite hit hull speed on my Suncat, but I typically am only using it through a no wake zone in and out of the loading area. It's very, very quiet. I never realized that conversations were shouted or saved for later under the power of our Tohatsu. Now we chit chat the entire time and coordinate better on our launches and landings. It's a great tool.
As for needing more power and range, the solutions are already available, albeit expensive if you are replacing a functioning diesel. Where gains could reasonably be made is in the purchase of a new boat, built to order. At that point, go electric, and it will definitely pay for itself over time, even now. That situation is only going to improve.
The latest version of the Spirit 1.0, the Sprit EVO, has a larger internal battery (1,276Wh, 40% more capacity than the Torqeedo 1003/1103), can plug into a remote battery bank for increased range, and has hydrogeneration. While sailing, with the prop in the water, the motor generates 50W @ 4 kts (min), 140W @ 6 kts, 260W @ 8 kts, and 360W @ 10 kts (max).
Yes, you'll lose speed from the drag, and it requires 4 kts to work at all, but 140W at 6 kts isn't that bad. If you could maintain that speed, to recharge from 50% to 100% would take about 4.5 hours. Reportedly, the Spirit can be connected to most solar panels without the need for extra controllers or regulators.
Certainly best suited for day sailing and short cruises, but with regen and solar, and running the motor at lower consumption, still maintaining 3-4 kts, longer ranges are possible.
Quote from: bruce on April 19, 2021, 12:51:57 PM
The latest version of the Spirit 1.0, the Sprit EVO, has a larger internal battery (1,276Wh, 40% more capacity than the Torqeedo 1003/1103), can plug into a remote battery bank for increased range, and has hydrogeneration. While sailing, with the prop in the water, the motor generates 50W @ 4 kts (min), 140W @ 6 kts, 260W @ 8 kts, and 360W @ 10 kts (max).
Yes, you'll lose speed from the drag, and it requires 4 kts to work at all, but 140W at 6 kts isn't that bad. If you could maintain that speed, to recharge from 50% to 100% would take about 4.5 hours. Reportedly, the Spirit can be connected to most solar panels without the need for extra controllers or regulators.
Certainly best suited for day sailing and short cruises, but with regen and solar, and running the motor at lower consumption, still maintaining 3-4 kts, longer ranges are possible.
...and the case for electrics keeps getting stronger.
This isn't enough to get me to want to upgrade, but exciting news. I don't need regeneration in my context and I like the silence of motor out of the water.
Are you going to bite?
No, The Spirit 1.0 fits my needs just fine. The larger internal battery would be the most useful, ours is 1018Wh. We day sail a few hours at a time, we generally have 60-75% of battery capacity remaining when we haul out. I'm careful to not be wasteful heading out, usually we raise the sail with about 90% remaining. Coming back in, when I'm less concerned about contingencies, I'll play around some. They've change the battery management system to make it compatible with their remote battery packs from their larger motors, so I've heard we can't use the new batteries, unfortunately.
Another change in the EVO is you can convert a tiller motor to a remote-controlled motor and vice versa, before it was one or the other. There is a Spirit 1.0 Plus in between the 1.0 and EVO, no remote version was released. Basically otherwise the same as the EVO, but without regen. We might make 6 kts, the highest SOG I've seen is 5.6, but for a steady speed mid to high 4s is about it. I don't see regen being viable for us.
The addition of regeneration on the newer Spirit is certainly interesting. By contrast, the Torqueedo can be damaged if left to spin when off, or so I have heard. The remote control is an important benefit for us with the Torq. We, too, are careful with battery usage both in and out of the marina, and typically use 10% or less per outing, usually choosing to recharge when the screen starts blinking and telling us to slow down - at 20% charge, as I recall. But with a spare aboard I have little worry of running short. We can achieve near hull speed (near 6 mph) but even slowing a little increases the range dramatically. We have come close to having too little power in serious wind and chop when dousing sail, but never yet quite beyond (most worrisome was a building wind with perhaps 3 foot chop and measured ~30mph gusts when we needed to head up to reef - far past the optimum time to do so).
The expensive 50watt solar panel that Torqueedo sells (and that plugs right into the motor) can, according to a user on another forum, run the motor at about 1/4 speed in full sun, with a dead battery. So yet another option, especially if one uses the panel to prop up onboard deep cycle batteries to run the motor (via 12v power cord), something I would like to try sometime but have not yet attempted.
The extra battery makes it less troubling to go around a nearby island as a sailing goal, and from which we once had to motor much of the 6 miles back to port in a dying breeze. At the time we didn't yet have a spare, and we left with maybe 50% battery on the assumption we would not use it. I learned a bit about motor-sailing that day, and the SunCat is great at that, as it happens.
i never thought a two stroke twin could be so quiet. that merc single vibrated so much it made the motor mount buzz to beat the band. that little twin is as smooth as silk and when you only run it for 10 minutes so much the better
Quote from: Jim in TC on April 20, 2021, 01:48:01 PM
the Torqueedo can be damaged if left to spin when off, or so I have heard.
The Spirit 1.0 manual also says to tilt it out of the water when not in use. I recall lockwoods posted in this thread may have damaged his Torqeedo by leaving it in the water under sail. Besides the noise and speed loss, and possible damage, tacking can be hard for us with the motor dragging.
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=11942.0
It is much easier to deploy the Spirit than the Honda 2 and Lehr 2.5 I've used, and quieter of course, so I do find I use it to motor sail in light winds especially when maneuvering around shipping traffic when flukey winds can get us in trouble.
I could be mistaken, but I believe the Lehr and mercury are both based off a tohatsu. Mercury nissan tohatsu carburated gas are identical . I really like my 2.3 Honda Air cooled. Always non ethanol gas and run it dry by closing fuel valve at end of day. A propane air cooled would be great. Continue to hear bad things about durability of toqeedo, have two friends that gave up on them.
Quote from: Damsel19 on April 24, 2021, 06:00:43 AM
I could be mistaken, but I believe the Lehr and mercury are both based off a tohatsu. Mercury nissan tohatsu carburated gas are identical . I really like my 2.3 Honda Air cooled. Always non ethanol gas and run it dry by closing fuel valve at end of day. A propane air cooled would be great. Continue to hear bad things about durability of toqeedo, have two friends that gave up on them.
Mercury yes, Lehr no.
On the six HP sailpro, either Tohatsu or Nissan you can convert from gas to propane by removing the carb and replacing it with a propane mixer, changing the cylinder head, and replacing the fuel line that has a filter in it with the propane fuel line that has a safety solenoid valve. If I ever had problems with mine I'd consider it but my sailpro has been completely trouble free.
i would imagine that a conversion would be quite expensive considering the high cost of a small outboard or marine parts
I just saw a guy at West picking up all the supplies to service the lower section of his OB. I actually giggled a bit--hopefully inapparently under my mask.
I'm loving the ease and quiet of my eProp Spirit in its second season. I can't imagine going back to gas, and as I start kicking the tires of larger boats (probably a 30 footer for Lake Pepin and/or Lake Superior), I will lean strongly toward electric conversion. Meanwhile the Spirit will stay on my Com-Pac indefinitely.
I still don't know whether I would give the nod to Torqeedo or eProp if I were starting from scratch, but I'm content with what I have.