Having only had my Suncat out twice I am in the steep part of the learning curve. I now understand the need for a single line reefing system sailing with gusts 25-30MPH. Can anyone tell me the specific size Ronstan Cheek Block, the size and length of the the rope used which will tell me the size of the clam cleat. Also size of the self taping screws to mount the hardware...basically the details needed to order that materials listed in the Cat Boat Manual. I assume the Ronstan series 20 is the right block for the job and will mount on boom without any modification. (They sell an adapter for mounting blocks on curved surfaces which I take is not needed.) Just don't want to mess this up...
Another "newbie" question. On the mast there are two pins hanging from small cables. One is obviously the long pin used when raising mast to keep it up while attaching the forestay and for keeping the sail and hardware below the henge when the mast is down. What is the other curly thing-a-ma-jig?
Also, I read in the documentation I got with the boat that you can leave the pin out of the rudder and just use the friction lever to hold the rudder down, the benefit being if you run aground you don't tear up the rudder. Is this the common practice or do you put the pin in? Can the rudder be lowered before launching off the trailer or is this asking for trouble? The small cable that attached the rudder ping came detached and there is just a shallow hole with no threads. Anyone know how this cable is attached?
Ok...THANKS! for putting up with my picayune questions. I am grateful!
I'm sure others will respond, but I'll throw a few ideas out.
I assume you mean the single line reefing system described by Jim B in the Catboat Manual. The line is made up to the boom at the tack, up to the luff cringle, back to a cheek block on the other side of the boom, aft to a second cheek block at the clew, up to the leech cringle back to a third cheek block on the other side of the boom and forward to a cleat.
Regarding blocks, you have one already at the tack for the standard set up. I'd get two more of those, and match the mounting/fasteners. On the PC, they come from Dwyer. If you changed, I wouldn't go lower than 20mm. They'll be lots of friction in this system anyway.
You could match the line Com-Pac used as well. 1/4" would be plenty, 3/16" would probably be enough, smaller gets hard to handle. I use 3/16" FSE Dinghy Control Line, with a Dyneema core, so it's low stretch, but many will do. Easy to measure out the length needed, or temporarily install a length of any line you have on hand to get the actual length.
I'm not a fan of clam cleats, and I find a horn cleat a pain to use if I'm reefing while bouncing around underway. I use lance cleats, RWO R3604 and R3601, on my lazy jacks and reefing line respectively. Harder to source, but I like them. The R3601s are rated for 5-10 mm line, you may be able to use a size smaller, 3-6mm. RWO lists several. For the side of the boom, I decided to have the cam below the roller, so it wouldn't disengage if the line slipped out of the cam accidentally. For the starboard side of the boom, that meant R3601 (port, blue). The same cleat for the port side of the boom would be would be R3604 (starboard, blue). Confusing. I got mine from Biannacle.com. The first photo is my reefing line cleat. The second shows the cleat better, here used on my lazy jacks.
http://www.rwo-marine.com/products/product.php?subprod=RWO+Cleats
https://us.binnacle.com/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_keywords=1&plural=1&s=1&keywords=lance+cleat
The bent pin is used to hold the mast up while you rig the forestay. The shape makes it hard to fall out. The long pin goes through the holes behind the mast, under the pivot bolt, and doesn't hold the mast up.
Some use a pin that will shear if the rudder hits something. A wooden dowel for example. Hard to calibrate. There are better ways to hold the rudder down. Deploying the rudder before you launch probably varies with the ramp. I think I could get away with it, but I can easily raise, lower, and set the rudder from the cockpit without reaching over the transom.
Thanks for your help Bruce! So many questions answered. I actually was thinking of having the luff and clew on separate lines and had overlooked the Jim B system. I am now going with a true one line set up. I have never seen the lance cleats. They look perfect for this. I had decided to go with cam cleats over clam cleats after doing a bit of research. Thanks for confirmation.
The pictures of the pins on the mast answered everything and gave me some new ideas on keeping things where they need to be. Mystery solved.
I agree that the ramp will determine the risks associated with launching with rudder down. You say you don't have to lean over the transom to lower your rudder. Wondering if you could share how you do this. I'm hanging on by my knees with my head almost in the water as I put in the rudder pin and tighten the friction lever. I must be missing something obvious here.
Again, thanks for the response and the pictures. You made my day!
Bryon,
For my rudder shear pin I use a 2" 1/4-20 nylon hex bolt and nylon wing nut. I leave the rudder up when launching as I launch at a shallow ramp. Then for the acrobatics leaning over the transom to push the rubber forward and insert the nylon bolt shear pin is a little bit of a pain but I'm getting better with practice, I just leave the friction lever snug as it is not really needed with the shear pin. Here is an interesting idea for a "helper stick"
Quote from: FireDrill on February 20, 2015, 10:12:42 AM
I have inserted a simple plastic loop (short length of cable tie with the locking teeth -cut to about 2 inch diameter) into the hole in the rudder that the lifting line goes through. I then take a piece of pvc pipe with a notch in it, insert it into the plastic loop and, leaning over the transom push it forward till it stops.
Bruce has some great insight on rigging setups, he has helped me out a lot, I'm also working out how I want to setup my reefing lines. One idea I like of Bruce's is to use blocks at the cringle, I'll let him explain.
Bruce, why the preference for lance cleats over a clam cleat since the reefing line will not have that great of a load?
Bryon, what was it that tipped you towards cam cleats over clam cleats from your research? (I'm not sure a typical double cam cleat would fit on the boom so that does make the lance cleat interesting.)
I did find the lance cleats $15 cheaper at:
https://westcoastsailing.net/search.php?search_query=%22Lance%20Cleat%22§ion=product
My reefing line is just at the clew, I brought it forward on the boom so I can reach it if the boat falls of the wind and the boom is off the side. I use the reefing hook on the gooseneck at the tack. But, we have open cockpit. Not sure what version SC you have, but if you have a cabin I would imagine that having the tack on a reefing line as well would be advantageous. I've heard of single line reefing systems, handling the tack and clew, but haven't ever tried one. I would be concerned that the friction, especially were the line goes through the cringles, would make it hard to set tight. I've added a 20mm block at my leech cringle that helps. You could try the same at the luff cringle as well. Some details to work out to see what would be the best for you, but two lines may prove to more effective.
You're not missing anything, the stock rudder control is pretty basic. Having to reach over the transom to tighten the pivot is crude. Com-Pac does offer a rudder hold down system. I haven't tried it, but I'm sure others can fill you in.
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=8217.0
My system is simple. A rod attached to the rudder passes through a pivoting block mounted on extended cheek plates that attach the tiller to the cast rudder head. The rod is clamped in the pivoting head to hold it at any position, up, down, or someplace in between, for shallow water for example. The clamping pressure is set so the rod can slide through the head if the rudder hits something. I've used the system since 2011, and have made some changes over that time. The bugs are worked out at this point. I'll post some photos, and would be glad to go into more detail if anyone is interested. I've since foiled my rudder, but the system still works well.
Another approach is to use a downhaul line in addition to the uphaul we have already. Running the line around the pintles/gudgeons is the challenge here. Some use a bungee on the downhaul, so it can give if the rudder strikes something, but it's critical to have the rudder in the full down position otherwise. If the rudder creeps up as the boat gains speed you'll have very pronounced weather helm, just as you have now if you leave your rudder pivot loose and don't install a pin.
Hi Tom,
I don't like clam cleats because the line can be dislodged so easily if something snags it. Com-Pac uses a clam cleat for the PC CB pendant, and I dropped the CB unexpectedly a couple of times before I replaced it. No damage, fortunately, but I don't like them in critical spots.
I saw those smaller lance cleats, but they appear to be lighter duty, with only 2 fasteners. RWO has some smaller 3-6 mm lance cleats with 4 fasteners as well. There may be a cheaper version that is suitable. Mine seem fine, not oversized.
Quote from: bruce on April 10, 2019, 08:58:06 AM
My system is simple. A rod attached to the rudder passes through a pivoting block mounted on extended cheek plates that attach the tiller to the cast rudder head. The rod is clamped in the pivoting head to hold it at any position, up, down, or someplace in between, for shallow water for example. The clamping pressure is set so the rod can slide through the head if the rudder hits something. I've used the system since 2011, and have made some changes over that time. The bugs are worked out at this point. I'll post some photos, and would be glad to go into more detail if anyone is interested. I've since foiled my rudder, but the system still works well.
Bruce, your centerboard rod system is brilliant, please post more details.
Quote from: bruce on April 10, 2019, 09:18:49 AM
I don't like clam cleats because the line can be dislodged so easily if something snags it. Com-Pac uses a clam cleat for the PC CB pendant, and I dropped the CB unexpectedly a couple of times before I replaced it. No damage, fortunately, but I don't like them in critical spots.
Bruce, please also tell me more about your replacement CB pendant cleat? I ordered a new one from Hutchins along with a new starboard mounting block as my teak one was cracked. The previous owner replaced the centerboard line and it never held in the old clam cleat so I was hoping a new one would hold. Before I drill my new starboard mounting block I may order whatever cleat you used.
Tom,
I'll deal with the CB cleat first. I'm not familiar with the SC cleat. I believe it's on the cockpit sole, ours is on top of our CB trunk, so I don't know if it would work for you. The new cleat is a Allen A4876 Thru Deck Cleat, a cam cleat that pivots. This was even harder to source, I had to order it from the UK. Another PC owner had one and I thought it was a great solution, so I rationalized the effort and expense. Don't judge!
https://usa.allensail.com/product/a4876-through-deck-small-swivel-ball-bearing-cam-cleat/?v=7516fd43adaa
For the rudder lift, I replaced the tiller cheek bars with the same stock, 2" x 3/16" 6061 aluminum, longer so they extend 3 1/2" beyond the aft edge of the rudder head. In development, I just attached a couple of new bars on top of the existing bars, you just need something to carry the pivot block clear of the rudder head. The last photo is of an earlier version.
I used 1 3/4" 6061 aluminum rod to make the pivot block. Initially I used Delrin, but the threads to receive the 3/8"-16 SS clamping stud failed. I used 1/4" shoulder screws for the pivots (McMaster Carr #91327A132). A 3/8" hole was drilled through the block to receive the 3/8" 7075 aluminum rod, clamped in the center by an adjustable handle with a threaded stud. The rod is threaded to receive the SS clevis rod end and the aluminum ball knob.
Early versions used 1/4" rod, but when I hit an uncharted obstruction in a channel with 8' of depth ay MLW, and the rod bent, I went to 3/8", in a harder and stiffer alloy (7075). I was also concerned with the metal clamp bearing on the rod that the rod would deform. I used a Teflon insert between the metals, and then a Delrin threaded clamping stud, and both were problematic. I've used the current clamp and rod combination since 2012 and, at the clamping forces involved, the rod isn't deformed. The tolerances are tight, so a few times a season I'll remove surface corrosion and lubricate the rod with Boeshield T-9 so it slides well.
A stack of curved disc springs apply tension on the clamping stud to keep it from vibrating loose. Now I might try a viscous lubricant like Tef-Gel. With a round clamping knob, it can be difficult to see if vibrations are causing the clamp to loosen. The orientation of the handle is easy to see. One thing that SC owners will have to evaluate is the chance of the end boom sheet fouling on the rudder lift. If it is a concern, selecting a more appropriate rod or clamp handle may help.
Any questions would be welcome.
Wow, your rudder lift is quite a feat of engineering, very nice, thank you for the insight, another item for my to do list.
Regarding the CB cleat, that is a nice unit and I see how it works on the PC. For the SC our clam cleat with 3/4" mounting board is flat to the sole so unfortunately the larger size of your unit may present a trip hazard on the SC.
That's what I thought would be the case. I guess having a wide open cockpit has its disadvantages!
Hi Bruce,
I looked more at the Allen product line for ideas and found this Through Deck Fairlead, however with the angle it will not fill the SC centerboard straight pendant:
(http://www.apsltd.com/aps-advisor/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/h-through-deck-elad.jpg)
But I ran with the idea and found this:
(https://www.zimsailing.com/_resources/images/product/_cache/through-deck-bushing1_500x500_ws.jpg)
If I go with the idea I will use these parts to mount to my new Starboard CB block:
Ronstan Thru-Deck Bush S/S Lined Screw Mount 1/2" ID x 3/16"
(https://www.ronstan.com/images/product/PNP258.jpg)
Ronstan C-Cleat Carbon Cam Cleat, Medium, Yellow
(https://www.ronstan.com/images/product/RF5400Y.jpg)
Looks like a nice, low-profile and durable-to-foot-traffic set up. I looked at that bush when I was changing my CB cleat. One nice thing about the Ronstan cam cleats is they have accessories you can add. Com-Pac uses them as the halyard cleats on the PC, with a low-profile wire line guide in front of the cams, RF5404. That might be useful for you.
https://www.ronstan.com/marine/range.asp?RnID=063
In the link, they say the line guide fits the small cleat. My cleats are medium, 66 mm long, and there was a wire line guide available, at that time anyway.
Bruce, thanks for the link to the accessories. I like the yellow on the cam cleat for the visibility it would provide on the sole.
Quote from: Byron of Bedford on April 08, 2019, 06:17:34 PM
Can anyone tell me the specific size Ronstan Cheek Block, the size and length of the the rope used which will tell me the size of the clam cleat. Also size of the self taping screws to mount the hardware...basically the details needed to order that materials listed in the Cat Boat Manual. I assume the Ronstan series 20 is the right block for the job and will mount on boom without any modification. (They sell an adapter for mounting blocks on curved surfaces which I take is not needed.) Just don't want to mess this up...
Hello Byron,
Getting back to the Single Line Reefing, for the forward tack reef I was also looking at at the Ronstan series 20 and the Ronstan RF285 Series 29 Cheek Block in addition to the original Dwyer DH 908 cheek block currently on our Suncats. For reference, the Dwyer is a 27 mm (1 1/6") sheave.
If you add the cringle blocks, as Bruce described, then the reefing control line will be on just one side of the boom, therefore I was looking for a double cheek block for the tack reef line and came across this article and I liked the double cheek block they used (note the cringle loop in lieu of a block):
http://www.timtone.com/monty/singlelinereefing.htm
(http://www.timtone.com/monty/images/FirstReef1.jpg)
Racelite Stacked Double Cheek Blocks 5/16" (8mm)
https://www.duckworks.com/product-p/rl-708-ad.htm
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/duckbbs/hardware/blocks/rl608-708/RL708-AD_big1.jpg)
The Racelite RL-708-AD is also a 27 mm (1 1/6") sheave, like the original Dwyer. I like the idea of the tack reef double cheek block to minimize the hardware, if the single line reefing presents problems in keeping both the luff and leeach tight then we could always revert back to the double line setup, just using one sheave of the forward double cheek block.
So much great advice here that is all new to me. THANKS! We need you guys working on the space shuttle.
I couldn't relocate the article about cam cleats one clams. Bruce's point about the clam cleat being vulnerable to being accidentally hit was one of the points I recall. The difficulty of releasing was another point.
I took the boat out yesterday is a very light wind and played with the reefing again before installing a new set up. I read a comment saying that a single line system is difficult not as functional as having two separate systems when it comes to getting the sail tightened down. What I realized yesterday is that being able to do everything without leaving the cockpit is what is really important to me. I think I am leaning toward using the factory installed system in the back and having the front on a separate block and cleat that is operated from the cockpit. This seems simple. Any comments on my conclusions? The loop in the cringle is very interesting and it seems it would allow for a tighter fit. Any downside you guys see?
Bruce your tiller lever is inspiring. I now see why you said you don't have to leave over the transom. I'm putting that on the list of projects.
Bruce I noticed you have some kind of setup in lieu of sail ties? It looks like a line of some kind that bungee cords run off of? Would you be willing to share your design. I find myself disintegrating from an initially tidy sail bungeed to the boom to "just shove it in the sail cover" once things are down. Do you have your boom and gaff tied together and in the same groove on the gallows when you trailer? (I am realizing I am on to a new topic so I will stop now).
...like I said, steep part of the learning curve....
I think going with two reefing lines led to the cockpit makes a lot of sense. Much less friction. Down the road you could experiment with a single line if you wanted to. I'm not sure how far forward the leech reefing line comes on your boom. On the PC it's way out on the end, and hard to reach unless the boat is dead into the wind. I moved my cleat forward.
I don't have a block on my luff cringle, on the leech it's made up to the cringle with a soft shackle. The line is fixed on one side of the boom, passes through the cringle block and back to a cheek block on the other side of the boom (first photo, there's a block hiding in there). I would try and do the same thing on the luff, but having the line go up and back on the same side of the boom would work. Most seem to do it that way. I wouldn't run the line through just a loop on the cringle, too much friction. You could try it, of course. The loop is handy when you're using the reefing hook on the gooseneck, easier to grab.
Here's another bit of hardware that you don't see very often, a ball-bearing cringle. Good luck trying to find that one locally. The sheave is pretty small, not sure how effective it is.
https://www.southernseasmarine.com/goiot-quick-reef-system-main-sail-boom
I use a Starbrite Sail Lash Centipede for tying the sail. 7 arms off the main bungee. I use the downhaul ring on the boom gooseneck forward, and installed an eye strap at the end of the boom. Works great. I remove it once the sail is raised so it's not in my face. Your boom's only 1' 6" longer than mine, there's plenty of stretch in the bungee. I tie 3 of the arms when I drop the sail, and the other 4 once I've dropped the mast. I should be better about flaking.
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/star-brite--sail-lash-centipede--4480380
Byron,
I forgot to answer your question about stowing the spars on the gallows for travel. Everything is bundled together. The boom and mast are separated and wrapped with carpet-style headliner at the gallows, to buffer all surfaces. I slide a foam beer koozie over the end of the gaff to isolate those hard edges from the sail.
Byron, Bruce, Zephyros,
I'm following this thread with great interest.
I am considering upgrading my SunDayCat reefing system to a single line system.
In what I've been seeing here, the forward reefing line is being tensioned straight downward to the boom.
Many reefing diagrams recommend it being tensioned diagonally forward and downward to the mast.
Any comments on the relative merits of these two methods?
Thanks, Roland
I haven't done either, but I wouldn't go to the mast for a couple of reasons. First, the boom is set by the downhaul. I'd want the reef to be set to the boom so I didn't have to balance the boom and reef settings. The second concerns sail shape. You want the luff to be pulled straight down, maybe slightly favored forward since the reefing line and block won't be as fixed as the reef hook, but you don't want a wrinkle at the luff from going too far forward. The leech reefing line pulls down, as well as aft to tension the foot.
Experiment if you want. Temporarily attach a turning point representing the cheek block to the boom and mast, and see what works for you. I'd be interested to hear what you find.
I'll add another thought. If your goal is to bring the reefing line to a cleat on your cabin top, I think I would still mount the cheek block on the boom below the cringle, then bring the line forward to a cheek block on the mast, and then on as necessary to your cleat. This will add at least one, possibly two additional cheek blocks. That's a lot of turns, and it may look better than it works. I'd definitely do some testing to see if it was going to be practical.
Thanks Bruce! The centipede looks like a great solution to many problems associated with securing the sail. I'm on it.
One other mess I have is my anchor. Do you have a good system for securing the anchor to the roller? I saw one post that showed a pin installed that runs through the roller and a link of the chain that looked pretty efficient.
Also for protecting the boat from the chain? I have seen some posts on using a bicycle tube zip tied to cover the chain. Some warnings against trying to rubberize the chain etc.
At first I tied the anchor off to the bow cleat, but I've since made up a bungee with a nylon hook on the end, that I attach to the mast, that works well. The hook comes with a keeper, but I cut that off. There's sufficient tension so the anchor and chain are securely held above the deck. We don't anchor much, but if we did, I might consider applying a plastic sheet with double sided tape on the area vulnerable to chain damage. Or maybe a mat, with soft silicon rubber backing so it wouldn't slip, that I'd flop down just when we were handling the chain.
Not sure where I got the hook, but this is similar, if not the same.
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--shock-cord-hooks--P002_068_004_502?recordNum=20
Byron,
For my anchor I'm going to try Slick Tape on my deck to avoid scratches. UHMW is durable stuff but will not take a beating like Bruce's idea of soft silicon rubber but it will better disappear as it is translucent. The white look in the below link is just due to the peel off release backer.
Good source, .020 thick:
QuoteUHMW is an abbreviation for Ultra High Molecular Weight. This polyethylene adhesive backed tape features a higher abrasion resistance than steel or Teflon and offers reliable low friction properties as well. This tape can be used in many applications but specifically works well to reduce deck chafing from sheets or lines. 2 in. is 0.02 thick. Can be sold by the foot or in 108 foot rolls (36 yards) with a peel-away backing.
http://www.apsltd.com/uhmw-tape-2-quot-cut-by-the-foot.html (http://www.apsltd.com/uhmw-tape-2-quot-cut-by-the-foot.html)
Byron,
After thinking about some more, I'm liking the mat idea better. Deployed when anchoring, stowed away otherwise. Adhesive-backed sheet would look good on the clear decking, which is 4" wide on the PC, but maybe not so much on surrounding non-skid areas I'd want to protect. Lots of gunk would sneak underneath.
Silicone isn't UV resistant, so I wouldn't use it exposed, just as a backing. EPDM rubber is used for roofing and pond liners, tough environments, and it comes in white. Cut out the shape of the deck hardware bases in the area, and slit the mat so it could slipped around the fittings. That would capture it in place. Butyl and Santoprene are other rubbers that McMaster-Carr lists as having with good UV resistance, but I think they only come in black.
Of course, if you're handy with a marlinspike you could tie a nice mat. Photos please!
I reached out to Roger who discussed his single line reefing in this thread:
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg82067#msg82067
He sent me these photos and information on his setup and also gave me permission to share the information here:
You can see for the Luff reef he has a double block setup, the larger one on the leech cringle and the smaller one on the boom. He led the line via the "silver fair lead mounted on hinge, helps keep luff forward."
Roland, your point about: "Many reefing diagrams recommend it being tensioned diagonally forward and downward to the mast." That is exactly what Roger did, I asked him about lowering the mast and trailering and he said: "I trailer all the time with no problems".
Also, he notes he does have a downhaul in this thread, so apparently that did not cause any issues with the reefing line run to the mast:
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg82055#msg82055
Thanks, Tom, this is fun to see.
It's interesting that he has a block on the luff cringle, but not the leech. Also, the line is fixed to an eyestrap the starboard side of the boom at the clew, passes through the cringle, down to the cheek block where it turns and leads forward. In the second photo, it appears that the line returns to the cheek block. This suggests he has balancing blocks along the boom. But, in the first photo, the line doesn't return along the boom, it just turns at the swivel block at the gooseneck, up to the luff cringle block, and back the fairlead and down the mast. This link describes balancing blocks; they wouldn't have to be inside the boom.
http://coxeng.co.uk/sails-and-rig/single-line-reefing-diy-system/
My comment about the boom downhaul was to avoid a second control line pulling the boom down, by pulling the sail to the boom directly and not further pulling the luff against the throat halyard once the downhaul went slack. But, if it isn't a problem in practice, fine by me.
Zephyros, Thanks for getting and posting those photos from Roger.
In the second, I see the small block at the luff reef cringle.
But even zooming in, I cannot see well how it is attached to the sail.
How do sailors if they use a block at a reefing cringle typically attach it to the sail, anyone?
Thanks, Roland
Often with rings or dog bones. Here's the set up on a much bigger boat.
http://sailing.thorpeallen.net/Greyhawk/Reefing/index.html
As I've mentioned, I use a soft shackle. You could go through the cringle to a ring and back through the cringle, or just pass the soft shackle through the cringle and have it come around the luff or leech back to the block. I use the one in the first photo on the leech. Easy to make the shackle longer if you need to (second photo).
Here's my go to link for tying them. My general favorite is the Better Soft Shackle (which includes a handy calculator for laying out the shackle) but I've tried many variants at this point in 1/16" to 1/4" Dyneema. Light weight, super strong, won't chafe, soft if it's flogging about. Single braids are very easy to splice, I haven't progressed to double braids. No fancy fid required, just a length of wire folded over. I encourage everyone to give them a try.
http://l-36.com/soft_shackles.php?menu=4
That said, Roland if you, or Tom, Byron, or anyone else following this thread, wants to try them out, but can't find them and aren't otherwise looking for a new hobby, I'll gladly tie up a couple for you for the cost of materials and shipping. Send me a personal message and we can work out the details
It's attached with a reef hook. Had no problems with this set up, worked good.
ROGER
Hi Roger,
Thank you for joining the conversation. Could you please tell us a little more about your two red port lines on the boom. It appears one is the reefing line going from the rear tack reef block to the forward clew reef block. But there is a second red line that is attached to a padeye mounted next to the rear port block and then goes forward and disappears under the sail fold, what is that second line used for?
Also, do you recall the line size you used, 3/16, 1/4, etc?
I'm putting together my Single Line Reefing design based on ideas from Bruce and Roger, a big thank you to both of them. Here is what I have so far, I will describe the layout fitting by fitting from clew reef to tack reef.
Starting at the port side aft end of the boom:
Line is anchored to a Pad Eye
Line routes up to a Ronstan Series 20mm Orbit Block RF25109 mounted at clew cringle via a soft shackle.
Line routes back down to a Ronstan 20mm RF20151A Cheek Block
Line routes forward along the boom to another Ronstan 20mm RF20151A Cheek Block
Line routes up to another Ronstan Series 20mm Orbit Block RF25109 mounted at tack cringle via a soft shackle.
Line routes back down to another Ronstan 20mm RF20151A Cheek Block mounted on the upper section of the mast hinge
Line continues down to a Ronstan 20mm Spring Block RF20141 which turns the line back to a deck top cleat of your choice, such as a Spinlock PXR
Notes:
This layout is for the Port side but it could just as well be done on the Starboard side. I chose the Port side as on my boat there is only the downhaul block and cleat on that side, where the starboard side has the two halyards. If you chose to do it on the starboard side you could reuse the current aft mounted clew reefing cheek block on the boom.
The Ronstan blocks were used for examples only, they could be changed to your favorite brand or style.
Specific details could be changed for your layout, such as the mast bast spring block could be one of numerous styles based on your layout.
The photo is the Sunday Cat factory brochure photo as it was the best flat view I could find. The design is intended to be generic for any Suncat, Suncat Daysailer or Sunday Cat.
All suggestions for improvements are welcome.
Looks good. I'm using 3/16" line with the Ronstan RF25109 block. That runs freely, but even though the block is rated for 6 mm, I'd test any 1/4" line you were considering to make sure it also ran well before investing. A soft, easily-handled 1/4" might be tight. The 1/4" Yale PhD Racer line I use on my CB pendant for example. Under load it's 1/4", but loose you'd swear it's 5/16".
Zephyros:
Are you sure that you want the cheekblock (or fairlead) on the upper half of the mast hinge, rather than below?
Think about how the line will 'package' for trailering when the boom, sail, and gaff are all below the mast hinge and the mast is folded down.
Otherwise, looks like a nice system.
Will be curious, when you have it assembled, how well it works.
Perhaps, I will copy it; after my current projects are completed.
Regards, Roland
It wouldn't hurt, but it won't be an issue. The reef line will be slack, the cringles will be down on the the boom because the sail is down, and the gooseneck will be below the hinge. The cheek block will pivot down and mostly aft maybe 4" when you drop the mast. The reef line will still be slack, now marginally more, but probably not so slack that it will get tangled because the slack will be distributed throughout the reefing line.
A cheek block is better, IMHO. As you set the reef, the angle to the turning point will get steeper, approaching 90 degrees if your turning point is mounted on the hinge. A fairlead is only efficient in shallow angles.
Quote from: Roland of Macatawa on April 20, 2019, 05:12:39 PM
Are you sure that you want the cheekblock (or fairlead) on the upper half of the mast hinge, rather than below?
Think about how the line will 'package' for trailering when the boom, sail, and gaff are all below the mast hinge and the mast is folded down.
Quote from: bruce on April 20, 2019, 07:25:27 PM
As you set the reef, the angle to the turning point will get steeper, approaching 90 degrees if your turning point is mounted on the hinge.
Great feedback, keep it coming. Here is the analysis for both mast raised and mast folded with the block at either the upper or lower mast hinge:
Pros & Cons:
Mast Raised:
Full Sail: Line from Tack Reef Cringle routing down through either upper or lower mast hinge block is about equal.
Pros: Reefed Sail: Line from Tack Reef Cringle routing down to the lower mast hinge block allows a steeper angle when reefing which will help keep the luff tighter.
Mast Folded:
Pros: Line routed through upper mast hinge block allows line to fold out and over, away from the hinge, with a straight drop down to the tack reef cringle.
Cons: During mast raising, the upper mast hinge block will offer greater potential for the line to get pinched in the hinge.
Winner: Block Mounted on Lower Mast Hinge
But in relooking at Tropical Boating: Modifying my Sun Cat's Rigging
https://www.tropicalboating.com/2010/04/modifying-my-sun-cats-rigging
The simplicity of the single forward tack reef block with a boom mounted cleat in combination with the factory clew reef, this two line setup is not as convenient as I would like for single handed sailing, but it is tempting, decisions, decisions...
(https://www.tropicalboating.com/wp-content/uploadsboating/2012/08/tackreefed-starboard.jpg)
Also shown on page 45 of the manual, Modifying Sun Cat's Rigging
TomRay, Tropical Boating
Then, when all else fails, re-read the manual and re-visit:
Page 29, Single Line Reefing, Posted By: Jim B., Sun Cat
Our Sun Cat has a jam cleat and a horn cleat on the boom. The set-up is approximately: line attached at the front (tack) of the boom, up and through the grommet on the luff, back down to a turning block on the other side of the boom; line lead back to the aft end of the boom, another turning block, up through the grommet on the leach, back down to one more turning block, lead forward on the boom to the jam cleat and then secured with the horn cleat.
Page 40, Improving the Reefing System
My solution was to install an eye strap on the port side of the boom as far forward as possible, and a cheek block on the starboard side, also mounted as far forward as possible. A line goes from the eye strap through the cringle and down to the cheek block, then aft along the boom to another SeaDog Clamcleat mounted on the boom.
Tom,
I like your diagrams!
I suspect you're favoring mounting on the hinge because it provides a flat surface. Personally, I'd want to avoid the hinge because it's busy enough already on my boat. I lead the lines forward and around the long pin to keep them from getting tangled, works like a champ.
I'd mount the cheek block below the hinge, using a pad cut to the contour of the mast as necessary. Here's a photo of a block on my lazy jacks. That said, Com-Pac mounted the Harken 40mm Carbo cheek blocks at the base of my mast for the halyards without worrying about the curve in the mast surface. No problem, just not very finished.
Could you avoid the cheek block entirely, and run directly to your stand up block? Our, lower down, a fairlead might be all that is necessary. Just thinking out loud.
Bruce, great ideas. What is that block that is mounted on the wedge in the middle photo, a Harken 40mm Carbo? What about the wedge, is that a Harken accessory?
The block in the middle is a Selden BBB20, the Harken 40mm is at the bottom. Looks like the smallest plastic cheek block in the Harken Carbo line is the 29mm. So many choices. I like that there isn't SS on aluminum, except for the fasteners of course. I bed with butyl tape these days, wonderful stuff.
http://www.seldenmast.com/en/products/blocks/ball_bearing_blocks/bbb20/__item_402-101-13.html
https://www.harken.com/productdetail.aspx?id=4523&taxid=416
No, the wedge I made up out of Delrin. Might use black Starboard these days, possibly better UV resistance. We both store our boats indoors, so it isn't a big factor. They would be useful, but there's so many profiles out there, and where you mount on the profile would vary, it would be a hassle to stock them. Somebody like Dwyer could do it for their line, but they seem to favor SS backs that can be bent to conform.
I think I tried blowing up profile on the Dwyer site to life size, but it's just as fast to take an index card and fit it directly. Trimming a bit at a time, until you get a good match. Easy to cut on a bandsaw, do the back first while the work stands square on it's edge. Trimming the wedge to match the block footprint isn't as critical. Might be able to do it with a jig saw, though the blade does wander. A hand scroll or coping saw would be safer. Delrin and Starboard are very easy to work. Clean up with gouges, files, and finally sandpaper laid on top of the mast, so it is a sanding block.
You could bend a piece of SS bar stock, say 3/32", into a L shape with a couple of tabs for fasteners. Might need heat for the bends. Not as much fitting, but SS on the aluminum mast, and would be more apt to snag a line.
Same offer. It you want to go that way, but are challenged by the fabrication, I'll do it for cost.
I tried using a ball stretch cord set for the mid-sail cringles. Worked well on shore. This is a modification (store purchased) of what Bruce did on his rig. I'll just leave the cord set in the reef points and attach when the tack and luff are secured.
Bruce:
What do you think of using a soft shackle to go through the tack reef point and around the hook supplied by Com-Pac as an improvement versus trying to put the cringle over the hook which can be difficult.
http://www.apsltd.com/fse-robline-dyneema-soft-shackle-4mm-5-32-gray.html
Regards,
Mike
I agree with you, Mike. First time I reefed I punched a hole in my sail with the hook. My bad. I've heard many add a loop to the cringle to grab.
The 5/32" soft shackle would work, but it's only 3.15" long. I think that's measured with the shackle stretched out, from the tip of the loop to the inside of the diamond knot, so circumference. That gives me a diameter of 1". Sounds tight. Best to check my numbers.
I'd take any small line and make a loop with a fisherman's knot to determine how big you want it. Actually, since you'll be leaving this in place, you could use Dyneema with a triple fisherman's knot, one of the few knots that is recommended for use with Dyneema. The knot will weaken the line significantly, but I'd go with at least 3/16" anyway for handling. If I were tying a soft shackle for this, where the line is buried in itself so the thickness is greatly increased, I'd use 1/8" or 5/32". The soft shackles test at almost full line strength. Quite amazing really.
You can also tie a loop with Dyneema, by burying the ends back into the line. But you need a minimum of 50 diameters of bury to hold well. For 1/8" line that's a bury of 6.25", two ends so double that, that's over 12" circumference. Too big, I would say.
Quote from: mikehennessy on April 21, 2019, 02:50:12 PM
I tried using a ball stretch cord set for the mid-sail cringles. Worked well on shore. This is a modification (store purchased) of what Bruce did on his rig. I'll just leave the cord set in the reef points and attach when the tack and luff are secured.
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the suggestion, I'm going to give that a try.
Quote from: bruce on April 21, 2019, 11:30:35 AM
Same offer. It you want to go that way, but are challenged by the fabrication, I'll do it for cost.
Bruce, thanks for the offer.
Quote from: bruce on April 21, 2019, 09:22:24 AM
Could you avoid the cheek block entirely, and run directly to your stand up block? Our, lower down, a fairlead might be all that is necessary. Just thinking out loud.
Bruce, running with this suggestion with a slight twist, using a Swivel block cleat base, such as a Ronstan RF20175 or RF5.
https://www.ronstan.com/marine/product.asp?prodno=RF20175
https://www.ronstan.com/marine/product.asp?ProdNo=RF5
While the line angle from the tack reed cringle block may not be as far forward as desirable, it may be a good compromise. I found a few examples of this, such as:
http://barnaclebillholcomb.blogspot.com/2011/09/single-line-reefing-system.html?m=1
Below is an updated diagram with this approach, see diagram SC Single Line Reef Port 2 below.
I also made a diagram of the simpler original idea of everything contained on the boom using your RWO Lance cleat and a Racelite double cleat in diagram SC Single Line Reef Boom 1.
Tom,
I was never a fan for drawing the luff tighter to the mast, I'm not sure what the point is. Not reefed, the luff is parallel to the mast.
I know your boat isn't handy for testing, but I would try setting something up to see how you like it. You're set at the leech with the stock set up. Temporarily attach a turning point, e.g. a swivel block you have on hand, on the boom at the tack. Could be as simple as a C-clamp. Run the line up to the luff cringle, to another temporary block, or just through the cringle and back to the blocks and cleat you have in place for the boom downhaul. Temporarily tie a fixed downhaul at about the right height, and plan to tension the luff with the throat halyard. (I'm not familiar with the SC downhaul set up, but it sounds like it could be repurposed for a quick test.) Run a temporary single reefing line and see how it goes.
The lance cleat is nice in that it's simple and keeps the rig on the boom, but I doubt it will ever be as easy to use as a line run to a Spinlock cleat on the foredeck. Especially if there's significant force required to set the reef tight.
Follow up. I hadn't checked out your cleats. They look nice. Mounted on the mast sub, the load under shear. I wondered about that. On the PC, access to the deck is very poor. Where the halyard cleats are mounted on the coaming isn't backed, just self-tappers into a 1/4" of glass.
Quote from: bruce on April 22, 2019, 09:02:24 AM
I know your boat isn't handy for testing, but I would try setting something up to see how you like it.
I'll try some tests to see how it goes.
Quote from: bruce on April 22, 2019, 09:02:24 AM
I was never a fan for drawing the luff tighter to the mast, I'm not sure what the point is. Not reefed, the luff is parallel to the mast.
Bruce, when you say "drawing the luff tighter to the mast" as are you thinking using a Swivel block cleat base could not be mounted far enough forward to get a good angle to tighten the luff?
If yes, is your thinking only a mast mounted block and foredeck cleat would give the best "drawing the luff tighter to the mast"
Really enjoy this "rabbit hole" and appreciate the collaboration.
I decided to keep it simple (aka cheap) and installed one cheek block on boom and keep the two ends separate. My plan was to use a cam cleat mounted on the boom (Harken 150 with fairlead https://www.harken.com/productdetail.aspx?id=5735). The base seems too wide for the boom as in the contour of boom leaves the sides of the base out in thin air. I'm guessing this is the issue you are talking about Bruce on the mast install? My inclination is to return to the clam cleat junior and also add one for the aft rig in place of horn cleat. Seems easy, cheap and workable.
Unless...one of you sets me streight.
Sorry, Tom. I didn't see your reply yesterday. We're up to page 4!
I don't see I great need to draw the luff tighter to the mast when reefing, the primary goal is to pull the luff cringle tight to the boom. However, the stock set up uses the reef hook, which is going to hold the cringle right there, with no slipping aft as the leech cringle is pulled aft, as well as down. For that reason, I can see a potential need to pull forward a bit on the luff cringle so a gap doesn't open up between the luff and the mast. If that is useful, and by how much, I think would be best determined by doing some tests.
I would guess that it won't be critical, and it's mostly about minimizing friction and running the line to a cleat that suits your need. I reef rarely, so I'd probably accept the cleat on the boom, if a was doing a single line system. But cleating on a moving/bouncing boom isn't going to be as easy as going to the foredeck as you do with the halyards and boom downhaul now. Then if you have pull hard to set the reef you'll be able to get your body into it. I hope this makes sense.
Byron, you're correct about the base on my 40mm cheek blocks, there are gaps at the fore and aft edges. The fasteners in the center are well-supported, and the blocks work fine.
Two lines will minimize friction. Personally, I wouldn't want to use clam cleats, but that's just me. There might be a small cam cleat out there with a SS back that can be bent to the boom profile, but clam cleats work. I know some who use a clam cleat on their CB pendant, to set the depth, and then bring the tail to a horn cleat as a back up so it can't be dislodged accidentally. Could be useful.
Update. For those still looking for a cam cleat that could work on a curved surface out of the box, here's a couple of ideas.
Ronstan makes a curved base for its medium and large cam cleats. The curve won't match exactly, but there'll probably be good contact on the outside edges, good for stability. Unfortunately, the small cleat doesn't seem to have this option.
https://www.fisheriessupply.com/ronstan-cam-cleat-medium-curved-riser-base-rf5416
Here's a small Harken, that's attached to a plate (H423). Fasteners are only 23/32" apart. I think they're using the fairlead screws to mount the whole assembly, but that needs to be verified.
http://www.apsltd.com/h423-micro-carbo-cam-on-plate-w-bullseye.html?fee=5&fep=20878&utm_source=Google+Shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Product&gclid=CjwKCAjw7_rlBRBaEiwAc23rhnvn6I1LPRcHeTfD7ADOWaB92F11F3fq-bNN2N2Yo-VXUfirvOeB2xoCgvgQAvD_BwE
Allen makes small cam cleats with a SS backing that could be bent to some extent. Less so, the one with a fairlead built in, but the spread between the fasteners is only 1". Bending will effect the cams, so proceed with some caution. Finding Allen products in the US can be tough.
https://www.purplemarine.com/chandlery/deck-fittings/cleats/4762-allen-cam-cleats/allen-stainless-steel-based-cam-cleat-mini-14338.html
https://www.purplemarine.com/chandlery/deck-fittings/cleats/4762-allen-cam-cleats/allen-stainless-steel-based-cam-cleat-mini.html
https://www.sailboats.co.uk/allen-stainless-steel-based-cam-cleat-mini
Another quick and dirty trick that can be used to mount flat hardware on a curved surface is to use washers at the fasteners to raise the hardware so it clears, or just touches, the curved surface at the center. Nylon would work, and provide some corrosion protection.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I ran across this company that makes an elliptical pad for mounting hardware on spars. In the kit with the small Ronstan cam cleat, they include the pad undrilled so you can select the orientation to suit your needs. Extra holes wouldn't be a real problem, but I bet a phone call will get you some undrilled pads for $6.
https://www.murrays.com/product/01-0109/
https://www.murrays.com/product/01-0112/
Thanks for the feedback on the luff angle Bruce.
Bryon, regarding the cam cleat, for my needs and opinion a cam cleat on the boom is entirely to large and would look out of place, especially for the seldom used reefing hardware. If your still wanting to go that way the curved bases Bruce found would be the way to go, bending a ss cam cleat base would most likely no longer hold the line load as the teeth would be set at an angle and spread apart. If I mount the cleat on the boom I will go with the one shown in the Suncat rigging mod article:
Clamcleat 002111-1
https://www.tropicalboating.com/2010/04/modifying-my-sun-cats-rigging
https://www.fisheriessupply.com/sea-dog-line-aluminum-clamcleats-with-integral-fairleads-002111-1
Speaking of curved bases, here is a cheek block base I came across:
Schaefer Cheek Block Mounting Pad for 5 Series Cheek Blocks 55-60
Mounts to/ Works With: Fits 2-1/2" to 6" dia. Spar section.
https://www.riggingandhardware.com/p-45795-schaefer-cheek-block-mounting-pad-for-5-series-cheek-blocks-55-60.aspx
For my boom blocks I'm really liking these Selden ones in lieu of the Ronstan ones, more compact:
Selden Ball Bearing Block, 20mm, Single Cheek SKU:SLD40210113R (Selden P/N 402-101-13)
http://www.apsltd.com/selden-ball-bearing-block-20mm-single-cheek.html
(https://www.hartleyboatschandlery.co.uk/items/402-101-13.jpg)
And for the last rabbit hole, I found a good reference for how I'm leaning for my setup, except I think I will still add Bruce's Ronstan cringle blocks, this diagram just does a nice job to show the mast mount swivel cam cleat block:
Single Line Reefing System
http://barnaclebillholcomb.blogspot.com/2011/09/single-line-reefing-system.html?m=1
If anyone is still thinking about using a lance cleat on the boom, the back is already curved. Fit well on my boom. PC and SC booms are the same extrusion, DM-275. I just used a little butyl tape to isolate the metals.
http://www.rwo-marine.com/products/productdetail.php?code=R3601
I got the "Do you really want to kick the poor dead horse?" warning as I hit reply here, but...
I'm getting ready to re-rig my reefing line. I day sail, and while one can't plan for everything, I stay off the lake in any conditions likely to necessitate use of the second reef point. Therefore, I am asking about a single line reefing system for a single reef point.
What I want to know is:
a) For those of your who use some sort of a shackle or other attachment system in the cringle as opposed to just passing the reefing line through it, what is the benefit and do you feel like it is just nice, or necessary?
b) Soft shacklers--make or purchase? If the latter, where?
Renae,
a) I abandoned the forward reefing line last season only to make its turning block and cleat available for a gaff/sail downhaul line.
Otherwise, I would not have changed it.
b) Am trying a soft shackle this season. No experience yet, but the fit looks promising.
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/fse-robline--4-mm-dyneema-soft-shackle--19784578?recordNum=3
Like the tiny line to release the soft shackle.
Regards, Roland
I won't be party to the abuse of any animal (unless I'm eating it ::)), but I have no problem reviewing my own mod. I hope anyone else who's tried it will as well.
We rarely reef, but do get caught out on occasion. My wife doesn't do adventure, so I tried to optimize our reefing system. Bringing the line forward on the boom, so it could be reached when the boat was off the wind, was a no brainer, as was replacing the horn cleat that comes on the PC. I don't want to be fiddling with a cleat any longer than necessary as the boom bounces around. Reducing friction at the cringle was equally obvious, but I won't say it makes a huge difference. Easy enough to test for yourself, you probably have a small block hanging around. See how much friction is in the stock line and cringle set up, and run the line through the block to compare.
Finding a pre-tied soft shackle in the right dimensions is probably going to be difficult. Custom tiers will charge a fee. I'll be glad to tie a shackle for you, or anyone else on the list wanting to try this, for cost. You might want to quarantine it for 14 days to be safe.
Rudder Pin-
I use a wood golf tee. It works great! It fits the hole nicely and it holds up well unless you hit bottom at which point it breaks. I have been using a golf tee for a few years now and I'm very pleased. Someone on this site (I don't remember who it was) posted using a golf tee quite a while back and so I tried it and like it. I would not depend on just the friction bolt because I have found that the rudder can creep up on you while sailing. Also if you really tighten it up it can be hard to loosen leaning over the transom when your in a hurry to pull the rudder up. The golf tee is usually fairly easy to pull out.